What 3 Old Timers would give......

[Joe E]

......more modern Heavys the most problems? Mine are:
Corbett
Jeffries
Johnson

Corbett: Master boxer, Footwork
Jeffries: Sheer strength, durability
Johnson: Over all boxing ability, inside work.

[TommyV]

What d'you mean old timers? How long does it have to be since they last fought?

[Russell]

Seems like mostly turn of the century fighters?

[Joe E]

What d'you mean old timers? How long does it have to be since they last fought?O.K., let me re phrase. Turn of the Century.

[Langford]

I think the better fighters of their time would present the most problem in this time.

Jack Johnson's biggest change would be that he would have to accelerate his work rate, combine more of an offensive attack to the defense, and gear himself to a twelve round fight as opposed to a longer contest and take more chances. But he had the athletic skill, speed, and most important, intelligence, to be dangerous at any time.

Jim Corbett. Corbett would benefit a great deal from more modern nutrition and advances made in athletic development. But the raw material, mental and physical, is all there. Fast, clever, like Johnson, enjoyed it when he made the other guy miss and look the fool. Corbett would never be huge, but I see him as a pretty natural 205lb guy (who goes on to fight bigger, at say, 215) who wins at cruiser and then moves up to outpoint a lot of guys at heavy.

Jim Jeffries, the natural athletic ability is all right there. Like Tyson, this is a guy who was fully athletically formed from a real young age. Just, bam, he is ready to go by the age of 18. Jeffries main attribute was strength and stamina, in addition to his athletic ability. I would say that the lack of a long lasting fight, might hurt Jeffries a little, but, then the guys whom he'd be fighting would be right in front of him. If he can take the punch (and he was a lot easier to hit than Jim or Jack), I imagine a much more formidable George Chuvalo type of guy. And could be real big trouble.

Funny thing is, I don't see any of these cats fighting had they been born 25 years ago. Jeffries would be gobbled up by his high school football coach and might have Brian Urlachers job. Corbett would probably have been born an hours drive from the nearest boxing gym (is there still a gym of any kind in Frisco?) and may have had a career in finance or, if athletically minded, baseball, like his brother did.

Even such a natural fighter like Johnson would probably not have pursued boxing as a way of living. Maybe music or something else. Johnson, like Corbett, not so much Jeffries, was always the kind of guy who was going to be someone. He probably would have found some way outside of the ring.

but times change, even if people really don't. In thirty years, the top ten heavyweights could be mostly Cuban. Product of the times, then and now.

[teeto]

......more modern Heavys the most problems? Mine are:
Corbett
Jeffries
Johnson

Corbett: Master boxer, Footwork
Jeffries: Sheer strength, durability
Johnson: Over all boxing ability, inside work.
Out of those guys i would pick Johnson, the man was immense

[Joe E]

I think the better fighters of their time would present the most problem in this time.

Jack Johnson's biggest change would be that he would have to accelerate his work rate, combine more of an offensive attack to the defense, and gear himself to a twelve round fight as opposed to a longer contest and take more chances. But he had the athletic skill, speed, and most important, intelligence, to be dangerous at any time.

Jim Corbett. Corbett would benefit a great deal from more modern nutrition and advances made in athletic development. But the raw material, mental and physical, is all there. Fast, clever, like Johnson, enjoyed it when he made the other guy miss and look the fool. Corbett would never be huge, but I see him as a pretty natural 205lb guy (who goes on to fight bigger, at say, 215) who wins at cruiser and then moves up to outpoint a lot of guys at heavy.

Jim Jeffries, the natural athletic ability is all right there. Like Tyson, this is a guy who was fully athletically formed from a real young age. Just, bam, he is ready to go by the age of 18. Jeffries main attribute was strength and stamina, in addition to his athletic ability. I would say that the lack of a long lasting fight, might hurt Jeffries a little, but, then the guys whom he'd be fighting would be right in front of him. If he can take the punch (and he was a lot easier to hit than Jim or Jack), I imagine a much more formidable George Chuvalo type of guy. And could be real big trouble.

Funny thing is, I don't see any of these cats fighting had they been born 25 years ago. Jeffries would be gobbled up by his high school football coach and might have Brian Urlachers job. Corbett would probably have been born an hours drive from the nearest boxing gym (is there still a gym of any kind in Frisco?) and may have had a career in finance or, if athletically minded, baseball, like his brother did.

Even such a natural fighter like Johnson would probably not have pursued boxing as a way of living. Maybe music or something else. Johnson, like Corbett, not so much Jeffries, was always the kind of guy who was going to be someone. He probably would have found some way outside of the ring.

but times change, even if people really don't. In thirty years, the top ten heavyweights could be mostly Cuban. Product of the times, then and now.Now this is a good Post.:good

[radianttwilight]

Harry Greb.

Although it's impossible to get a solid, quantitative examination of his ability as a fighter, his resume makes it clear that he was truly exceptional.

By all accounts, he had legendary durability, stamina, and workrate, and was supposedly very dirty, but yet in a way that actually might not harm him too much under modern rules (unlike, say, Jack Johnson, who would be quickly DQ'd in a match under modern rules).

His resume against greats of his era is outstanding. Although he wasn't filmed, many of these other greats were, and his opponents do not seem bad, certainly not bad enough to allow a mediocre fighter to run right through them.

I have deep-seated doubts about most men who fought prior to the ~1930s performing well in the modern era. I have no such doubts about Greb, though.

[Mendoza]

......more modern Heavys the most problems? Mine are:
Corbett
Jeffries
Johnson

Corbett: Master boxer, Footwork
Jeffries: Sheer strength, durability
Johnson: Over all boxing ability, inside work.

I do not think Corbett was big enough, or hit hard enough to beat the best modern supper heavies. However, I think Gentleman Jim could be an all time cruiserweight or a pound for pound ATG at light heavy.

Johnson to me was not active enough in terms of throwing punches, was too passive, and clinched too much to succeed in a modern era of boxing. He also had a shaky chin, but we hardly saw it because he clinched 2/3 of the round, and really was not in there vs quality prime fighters ( Guys who could be champion today ) on flim.

I think Jeffries ould take to modern training like a fish takes to water. Jeffries was a top notch athelte who was big enough, hit hard enough, and had the punch to succeed in modern boxing.

Pre Marciano, the old timers I think would do the best today are:

Jeffries, Dempsey, and Louis. I do think Dempsey and Louis would need to be 210-215, and probably could reach this weight with modern training / nutrition.

[Seamus]

None of them would stand a chance in the heavy ranks of today.

But you seem to like this line of fantasy play, so carry on...

[Mendoza]

None of them would stand a chance in the heavy ranks of today.

But you seem to like this line of fantasy play, so carry on...

I try not to pigeonhole a fighter if he fought 75-100 years ago. I prefer to rate the man, not the era then project how he would do if he had 100 amateur fights, modern training and nutrition techniques, and Manny Steward as his trainer. Does this make sense?

Or, simply pick a modern person and give the same exact conditions the old timers had to deal with, including feeding then to the wolves’ right out of the gate.

[Seamus]

I try not to pigeonhole a fighter if he fought 75-100 years ago. I prefer to rate the man, not the era then project how he would do if he had 100 amateur fights, modern training and nutrition techniques, and Manny Steward as his trainer. Does this make sense?

Or, simply pick a modern person and give the same exact conditions the old timers had to deal with, including feeding then to the wolves’ right out of the gate.


That is not how the question was framed, if it was framed at all.

As is typical with these scenario's on this board, this one was sloppily arranged. Do the modern fighters have the training, nutrition, lack of financial support and lack of amateur training that fighters of the 1890's did? Or do we have to extrapolate the fossils with modern training, nutrition and whatnot (which for some would do a disservice)? Are the rulesets the same? No decisions? Corrupt, thrown fights for the local betting set?

People need to ask better questions in order to not get sniping answers.

[Mendoza]

That is not how the question was framed, if it was framed at all.

As is typical with these scenario's on this board, this one was sloppily arranged. Do the modern fighters have the training, nutrition, lack of financial support and lack of amateur training that fighters of the 1890's did? Or do we have to extrapolate the fossils with modern training, nutrition and whatnot (which for some would do a disservice)? Are the rulesets the same? No decisions? Corrupt, thrown fights for the local betting set?

People need to ask better questions in order to not get sniping answers.

Understood. The question to me was open ended. So I assume the playing field is even in either era. One thing is clear, boxing is on the delcine these days. We could use an Old timer who came out, and went out fighting.

[McGrain]

Fitzsimmons. A cagey counter-puncher with durability and stamina. But he wouldn't be a HW now of course, so I'm forced to run with Johnson or Jeffries, really.

So i'll pick Sullivan.

[mcvey]

Why do you allways say Johnson had a shaky chin?. He was stopped by Klondike on a tko in 5 after putting Klondike down in the first,only the bell saving him,Johnson was a skinny 21 year old .Murderous hitting Choynsky kod Johnson with a body shot,no on else stopped him until he was 37 years old and fat and debauched ,and it took Giant Willard 26 rds in a heat of 105 degrees to do it,The Ketchel knockdown was a fix so how has Johnson a shaky chin ?Mcvey ,Langford,never dented it.From the time he stared fighting to his dethronement by Willard at the age of 37 ,Johnson had 98 fights he was stopped twice ,both times before he was fully matured, once by a body ,shot,he was not counted out against Klondike, it was a tko in 5 and he beat Klondike twice the next year .Up to 1925 ,when he was 47 ,Johnson was stopped 3 times in 118 fights,I dont see a shaky chin at all.He was only counted out once from a shot to the chin ,when totally exhausted he fell from Willards right hand ,after 26 rds in boiling heat.I think you need to revise your opinion of Johnson's chin.Johnson in 118 fights was only floored 3 times.Contrast that with Marciano who is called super durable,in 49 fights he was dropped twice.Or Ali another super chin ,he was dropped 3 times [if you dont count the Wepner step on toe job] and that was in less than half the fights Johnson had.Agenda?

[Mendoza]

Mcvey says: why do you allways say Johnson had a shaky chin?

Because I believe, he did. I said, "Johnson to me was not active enough in terms of throwing punches, was too passive, and clinched too much to succeed in a modern era of boxing. He also had a shaky chin, but we hardly saw it because he clinched 2/3 of the round, and really was not in there vs quality prime fighters ( Guys who could be champion today ) on film. "

To review, he was KO'd by a super middle, knocked down by a middle with the only solid punch landed in the fight, TKO'd by Klonndike, nearly TKO'd by Jim Battling Johnson, TKO'd by Smith in a 4 round ex match, and some say down by a 156 pound Langford. I have not read every Jack Johnson report, but I will venture to say he was down more than this.

Which solid punch on film have you seen Johnson take? IMO, Johnson fought the way he did to protect his lack of durability.

To parallel, Wlad Klitschko also has a shaky chin, though if you ask me the guys who put him down hit harder than the guys who had Johnson down. However, because Wlad is so good, his chin doesn’t get tested. It does not; change the fact that is still shaky vs punchers.

[Maxmomer]

The Ketchel knockdown was a fix

What?

[mcvey]

Johnson was stopped by Choynsky by a body shot ,Johnson was 21 and not yet mature physically.Choynsky is acknowledged as a terrific puncher ,no chin issues there as it was a BLOW TO THE STOMACH.If the knockdownin the Ketchel fight was on the level ,[which is in doubt]Johnson jumped u[p immediately and kod Ketchel who was also a terrific hitter,good enough totwice ko the Lightheavyweight Champion O Brien.Johnson was not nearly tkod by Jim |Johnson ,he broke his wrist in the third round , there were no chin issues there.Johnson was not tkod by Smith,andit was not an exhibition
match,they were sparring and Smith caught Johnson with a good ojne and knocked him into the ropes ,he never went down ,took a count or any such thing,IT WAS A SPARRING WORKOUT,Smith was Johnson's sparring partner for the Ketchel fight ,an account of this fight can be read in "IN THIS CORNER",a taped interview with Smith explains what happened.Johnson was tkod by Klondike a hard hitter ,he was not floored.Johnson was NOT floored by Langford ,in fact he dropped Langford and gave him a hiding,a direct quote from Langford"he gave me the only real beating I ever took ,I take my hat off to him ,though iwas greatly outweighed".To summarise up to 1925,when he was 47 Jonson had 118 fights,he was stopped 3 times once from a body shot,once while on his feet ,and kod for the count only once ,when he was 37 and after 26 rounds ,by a giant who hit hard enough with his right hand to kill a man ,[Bull Young],this is in a fight that temeperatures were recorded at 105 degrees over 15 rds Johnson would have won.Frank Moran caught Johnson with his "Mary Ann" in their Paris fight,a fat untrained Johnson ,[221lbs ]just laughed at him.You know Langford didnt drop Johnson ,just as you know Johnson broke his arm against Jim Johnson,just as you know Smith didnt tko Johnson,I have proved that in 118 fights Johnson was only kod once from a blow to the chin,and I have proved my point.You are back to your old tricks Mendoza,but never mind as long as I'm on this forum,I will happily correct your obfuscations,and agenda led falsehoods.Wlad Klitschko is a bad comparison to Johnson,he has been knocked out twice by punches to the chin in half the amount of fights Johnson had,Wlad is chinny and shits himself when attacked he is a deeply flawed fghter wth some skills ,a terrific physique, good power,but with a weak mental make up,he lacks confidence,is not a natural fighter,when he is tagged he falls to bits.Shame really as he seems a very nice man ,but nice guys often finish last,don't they?

[mcvey]

What?
Gun Boat Smith ,Johnson's sparring partner for the Ketchel fight stated the knockdown was a fake,as was the fight,Johnson agreed to carry Ketchel for the distance ,for the benefit of the movie cameras,there are tow ways to look at it Ketchel in connivance with his Manager Willus Britt ,doublecrossed Johnson and tried for the ko,or the Knockdown was staged and Johnson fell as the punch reached ,him,watch the fight closely and make up your own mind ,a good print of the fight does seem to indidcate that Johnson was falling as the punch lands.ONE IMPORTANT POINT,THE PUNCH LANDS ON THE SIDE OF JOHNSON'S HEAD,NOT HIS CHIN,so even if the blow was legit,and Ketchel hit hard enough to drop most anybody,Johnson was not floored by a punch to the chin.

[Mendoza]

mcvey : Johnson was stopped by Choynsky by a body shot ,Johnson was 21 and not yet mature physically.Choynsky is acknowledged as a terrific puncher ,no chin issues there as it was a BLOW TO THE STOMACH.

It was a blow to the temple. No doubt here. And Johnson was 23 with at least 25+ bouts under his belt. No excuses.


If the knockdown in the Ketchel fight was on the level ,[which is in doubt]Johnson jumped u[p immediately and kod Ketchel who was also a terrific hitter,good enough totwice ko the Lightheavyweight Champion O Brien.

O'brien was not a tough guy at all. In fact, if you could catch him, you could hurt him.


Johnson was not nearly tkod by Jim |Johnson ,he broke his wrist in the third round , there were no chin issues there.

Ah, but the news review says Johsnon was almost TKO'd in round ten. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds. Johnson quit in 10.


Johnson was not tkod by Smith,andit was not an exhibition

He was out, and his manger saved him. I posted the review here.

"IN THIS CORNER",a taped interview with Smith explains what happened.Johnson was tkod by Klondike a hard hitter ,he was not floored.Johnson was NOT floored by Langford ,in fact he dropped Langford and gave him a hiding,a direct quote from Langford"he gave me the only real beating I ever took ,I take my hat off to him ,though iwas greatly outweighed".

Johnson was floored by Klondike. The Langford fight a bit of a mystery if there was a kd scored by Langford.


To summarise up to 1925,when he was 47 Jonson had 118 fights,he was stopped 3 times once from a body shot,once while on his feet ,and kod for the count only once ,when he was 37 and after 26 rounds ,by a giant who hit hard enough with his right hand to kill a man ,[Bull Young],this is in a fight that temeperatures were recorded at 105 degrees over 15 rds Johnson would have won.

Another myth is the heat in Cuba. The weather archives never recorded such a high tempeture...in April.


You are back to your old tricks Mendoza,but never mind as long as I'm on this forum,I will happily correct your obfuscations,and agenda led falsehoods.

When the topic is Johnson, you are often incorrect. I have showed you this many times. You simply will not embrace the truth. If you want to start a separate thread on the issues here, be my guest.

[janitor]

One guy who would definitely transcend eras is Young Griffo.

Like Roy Jones he had reflexes like a rattlesnake to the extent that he didnt need fundamentals. Even good technical boxers just couldnt land on him.

He would probably have made any featherweight from any era however technicaly good look clumsy.

In summary I will suggest that any great fighter who tore up the rule book and fought with a unique style in their own era would probably do it in another-

Bob Fitzsimmons

Terry McGovern

Jack Johnson

Jimmy Wilde

[mcvey]

It was a blow to the temple. No doubt here. And Johnson was 23 with at least 25+ bouts under his belt. No excuses.




O'brien was not a tough guy at all. In fact, if you could catch him, you could hurt him.



Ah, but the news review says Johsnon was almost TKO'd in round ten. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds. Johnson quit in 10.



He was out, and his manger saved him. I posted the review here.



Johnson was floored by Klondike. The Langford fight a bit of a mystery if there was a kd scored by Langford.



Another myth is the heat in Cuba. The weather archives never recorded such a high tempeture...in April.




When the topic is Johnson, you are often incorrect. I have showed you this many times. You simply will not embrace the truth. If you want to start a separate thread on the issues here, be my guest.
I have rechecked the Choynsky fight you are correct Johnson was 23,the fight was stopped by the intervention of the Texas Rangers with Johnson on the floor ,Choynsky stated Johnson would not have been able to get up,before a count of ten ,and since Johnson allways said Choynsky was the hardest hitter he met I would beleive him,it was a punch to the temple ,I WAS WRONG,still not a shot to the chin was it? I have read several books on Johnson none of them say he was floored by Klondike,,and all of them say the temperature in Havana for the Willard fight was over 100 degrees. BY the way ,Choynsky after the fight with Johnson said,"They told me Johnson was a novice,when they asked me to fight him.He's no novice.The novices are the experts that didn't recognize that this boy is a coming Champion""Jack Johnson And His Times "by Finis Farr.The story that Langford put Johnson down was put around by Joe Woodman ,Langford's manager,it was a lie which he later admitted.Smith never kod Johnson ,in fact Johnson never went down he went halfway through the ropes,as can be read in a taped interview with Smith,and he should know.

[Maxmomer]

Gun Boat Smith ,Johnson's sparring partner for the Ketchel fight stated the knockdown was a fake,as was the fight,Johnson agreed to carry Ketchel for the distance ,for the benefit of the movie cameras,there are tow ways to look at it Ketchel in connivance with his Manager Willus Britt ,doublecrossed Johnson and tried for the ko,or the Knockdown was staged and Johnson fell as the punch reached ,him,watch the fight closely and make up your own mind ,a good print of the fight does seem to indidcate that Johnson was falling as the punch lands.ONE IMPORTANT POINT,THE PUNCH LANDS ON THE SIDE OF JOHNSON'S HEAD,NOT HIS CHIN,so even if the blow was legit,and Ketchel hit hard enough to drop most anybody,Johnson was not floored by a punch to the chin.

What's the difference if it was on the chin or on the head? Point is he was down and hurt from a punch to the head. If it was on the chin he probably wouldn't have gotten up at all. He also didn't get right up, I haven't seen any good quality footage, but from what footage I have seen, he was down for about 6 seconds. I doubt the fight was a fix, Ketchel was getting really fucked up, bleeding and knocked down several times, and he was also clearly trying to KO Johnson with some of his wild swings.

[radianttwilight]

I feel like an idiot now.

I didn't read the thread properly...the part about it being a heavyweight.

Greb may not have been the best choice!

[mcvey]

What's the difference if it was on the chin or on the head? Point is he was down and hurt from a punch to the head. If it was on the chin he probably wouldn't have gotten up at all. He also didn't get right up, I haven't seen any good quality footage, but from what footage I have seen, he was down for about 6 seconds. I doubt the fight was a fix, Ketchel was getting really fucked up, bleeding and knocked down several times, and he was also clearly trying to KO Johnson with some of his wild swings.
Did you miss Johnson staggering Ketchel and catching him before he falls,he holds Ketchel up on two occasions.Have you seen the whole fight?As said Ketchel probably double crossed Johnson and went for the ko,the punch landed behind Johnson's ear.Johnson never tried to stop Ketchel,till the knockdown,imo,and he did not appear hurt to me,when he arose he went straight into Stranley and kod him.The point I made was in 118 fights Johnson was stopped 3 times,once by the intervention of the Texas Rangers ,while he was on the floor ,and probably unable to beat the count ,once by tko and once when he was 37 after 26 rds of fighting,I dont think that constitutes a shaky chin.You have your opinion ,I have mine ,but I can't see how anyone can watch the Ketchel fight and not be aware Jack is carrying Stanley.

[prime]

Jack Johnson
James Jeffries
Sam Langford (In a time when Ruiz became a champion, Langford's busyness, skills and power would cause plenty of trouble from a man accustomed to fighting larger men.)