Peak Ali - 1969?

[tomasi80]

Many times I have heard that we never saw the prime Ali... One of the many things we recognize him as the greatest is his 3 years absence from the sport ... I think he was still on his way up in 1967 and that is the year many people agree as his peak. What fighter he could be in 1968 and 1969? He would be the dominator or you think he would slow down?

[Chinxkid]

He was great before and after, so I have no doubt he would have been great in that three year span as well. It was almost like watching two fighters. Clay, always moving, up on the balls of his feet, jab, jab, jab, maybe a right after that, or just three more jabs from a moving target. Ali moved, but not so much and not so fast, many more power shots, alot more in-fighting, taking more shots too. I think it's hard to argue that we know what he would have been during that time, but the prospects of it are exciting. I'd put my money on our seeing the best of him; imagine a young Cassius Clay with the power and smarts of Muhummad Ali.

[TBooze]

Ali peaked against Foley (according to Dundee), the thing is, the three years out of the ring was the best thing to happen to Ali. The hate towards him was such that I doubt he would of survived into 1969 without his break from the sport and change of attitude. Indeed, I suspect he would not be going down as the Sports personality of the 20th century, but as a footnote to Malcolm X, King and Robert Kennedy......

[Bokaj]

According to Dundee Ali was still getting better in 1967. He didn't say Ali peaked against Folley, only that it was his best perfomance to that date. He was filling out, getting stronger and more powerful, without losing any speed. I think that Ali in 1969 might well have been the greatest p4p ever. There's actually a case to make that he was already in 1967.

[jowcol]

This is something I've brought up time and time again, we never saw the peak Ali, that dormant summer of 67 to the summer of 70 period would have been something to see had he been active. We used to play out various scenerios on how his fights would have unfolded during that period.
He was already scheduled to fight Bonavena a few months after Folley.
He surely would have fought a handful of guys much earlier than he did.
Ellis/Quarry would have fallen circa 68, early 69. Martin, Mathis figure in the mix, maybe an earlier Patterson 2. How about a Peralta defense in Luna Park, Argentina in there? The inevitable Frazier battle may have been around the summer of 69. There is a possiblilty he could have reigned into 72-73 and run into young Foreman at that point.
Lots of possibilities. Lots of what-ifs....

[Ted Stickles]

Ali peaked against Foley (according to Dundee), the thing is, the three years out of the ring was the best thing to happen to Ali. The hate towards him was such that I doubt he would of survived into 1969 without his break from the sport and change of attitude. Indeed, I suspect he would not be going down as the Sports personality of the 20th century, but as a footnote to Malcolm X, King and Robert Kennedy......

I thought he said the best he ever looked was against Williams?I think Williams hit him 3 times or something ridiculous like that

[TBooze]

I thought he said the best he ever looked was against Williams?I think Williams hit him 3 times or something ridiculous like that

I would agree, but Dundee said he was even better against Foley, and I think he is a much, much better judge than me!

[TommyV]

He looked amazing against Cleveland Williams. I would say that's the best he's looked aswell and I think that was '66/67, I would probably agree with you though and say we never actually saw the best of Ali.

[mcvey]

He looked amazing against Cleveland Williams. I would say that's the best he's looked aswell and I think that was '66/67, I would probably agree with you though and say we never actually saw the best of Ali.
The three years would have been his prime imo,but the good old "Land Of the Free" took those away from him,along with his passport.How many other prominent Boxing Champions served in Viet Nam ,or were even inducted?

[Bokaj]

The three years would have been his prime imo,but the good old "Land Of the Free" took those away from him,along with his passport.How many other prominent Boxing Champions served in Viet Nam ,or were even inducted?

Yeah, I've thought about that. As far as I know no other elite athlete was drafted (but I could be wrong). They even had to re-classify him to make him eligable. Not a proud chapter of modern American history I would say.

[prime]

Dundee said it: "We saw a lot, but we never saw the best Ali."

The enforced layoff simply adds to mystique of Muhammad Ali, but it is based on fact. He was evidently peaking into something unprecedented, sublime, in those last three fights: Williams (Superman in white boxing trunks floating and stinging in that Houston ring!), Terrell (totally eclipsing a bigger, live challenger), Folley (what a classy one-punch knockout!).

Ali would have been the epitome of the warrior/scholar: truly the greatest fighter of all time with the mind and heart of a prophet speaking up and acting for his people.

Though hated for his "radicalism" in simply speaking the truth, I believe eventually society would come around to see him and that period in history more or less as it does now.

And, as an athlete, he was already looking for something uniquely challenging, as defending the title against all available opposition "bum-of-the-month" style was getting a bit old, thus enter the Billy Goat and possible multiple opponents on one night.

He would have broken all the records and probably retired with his health, but that is why I love Ali: he took his lemons and made a marvelous lemonade, never complaining, taking the long way home eventually all the way to Zaire. In an imperfect world, he made it perfect.

[Chinxkid]

Yeah, I've thought about that. As far as I know no other elite athlete was drafted (but I could be wrong). They even had to re-classify him to make him eligable. Not a proud chapter of modern American history I would say.

It was alleged the government made a point of going after him for the draft. because of his outspoken views, deemed a troublemaker; not unlike how they dug up John Lennon's old marijuana conviction in England. They couldn't deport Ali, but they could discredit and defang him. Both these guys had the selflessness and the guts to speak out against the war in Vietnam and other American lies.

I remember a documentary I saw on Ali, can't think of the name, but one scene is still clear in my memory... in the midst of this controversy, of Ali's conversion to Islam, of his changing his name, and of his refusal of the draft, he was at some southern university, and on the steps of a campus building he is met by reporters, onlookers, and a very vocal and chastising group of crew-cutted frat brother types, who were their to take Cassius to task for his stance.

"Don't you love this country? Who do you think you are? What makes you so special?" Ali, surrounded by white, southern, middle class, collegiates was beautiful, so beautiful I'll never do it justice here today, but it was....
"Why would I want to go halfway around the world to kill other, poor, brown people? Those people never did me no harm. Those people never enslaved me. They never treated me like dirt, they never called me ******...You did, you! I'd rather fight you right here right now, you are my enemy, not these poor people over in some place I never even heard of, you..."

It's beautiful when ignorance and hate come face to face to with truth. Not one of them had an argument, I swear they looked in awe of his fluidity, his poeticism. It was the past running face first into the future, and getting stopped in its tracks. And as much as alot of them probably hated him, as many of them who could never see him as their equal because of his color, it was clear to alot of us watching and I suspect to many of the white kids on those university steps too, in the still of that dark night, that this was a superior being. Ali stuck out on those steps as much as if he had dropped in from a parallel universe. How many times has our government created situations that end up turning Americans on Americans? Like walking into a crowded, raucous bar, sucker-punching the meanest looking guy and then crawling out the back door on your hands and knees, while the place erupts in mayhem in your wake.

[Dempsey1238]

I dont think Ali would have broken ALL records, I belive he would have lost way before the 49-0, about, or be short of it.

Perhaps he would have beating ther 25-0 title defenses. I think that was in Ali's reach.
As for 3 time heavyweight champ, well, I think he can do it I suppose.

Of couse, Ali would never get the 25 first round kos held by Jack Dempsey.
And he failed in his quest to beat Patterson's record.

[Bokaj]

I dont think Ali would have broken ALL records, I belive he would have lost way before the 49-0, about, or be short of it.


Of course, it's possible. But I can see him racking up another 20 wins before being defeated. He fought pretty frequently throughout his career, so those 20 wins might well have come in the next 5 or 6 years. I have no trouble whatsoever envisioning him going undefeated until at least 1973.

[Ted Spoon]

The best version of a fighter that trainers swear by are those that are under no pressure going about their business in the gym against over-matched sparring partners and exhibition devices like speed balls and the skipping rope.

The point that should be focused on is that we never saw the best version of Ali against his best opposition.

By the time Ali fought Terrell he was a matured, experienced and rounded fighter and he completely outclassed his worthy rival. It was a bit of an exhibition in itself as was his pasting of the prone Cleveland Williams.

Ali was at his physical peak at that point, of that, Ted Spoon has no doubt. Speed, movement and punch variation was at its peak - he looked less tuned in against Folley, although still impressive.

Had he continued it would of been interesting to see just when his physical gradient of decline started. Some chances may of come earlier Frazier).

An observation: The Frazier of 1971 still gives the best version of Ali, possibly, just as much hell as he did as he did in reality.

[Mendoza]

Many times I have heard that we never saw the prime Ali... One of the many things we recognize him as the greatest is his 3 years absence from the sport ... I think he was still on his way up in 1967 and that is the year many people agree as his peak. What fighter he could be in 1968 and 1969? He would be the dominator or you think he would slow down?

Two ways to look at it.

1 ) If Ali was not suspended from 1967-1970 he would likley have less left for the Foreman fight, Lyle fight, Shavers fight, etc... The comeback made Ali hungry again.

2 ) Ali lost three of his best years, and would have pasted the best of the time. The time Ali took off took away some of the bounce in his legs.

I tend to think Ali's legacy is better with the comeback.

For my money, Ali was at his best in the first Liston fight.

[mcvey]

The best version of a fighter that trainers swear by are those that are under no pressure going about their business in the gym against over-matched sparring partners and exhibition devices like speed balls and the skipping rope.

The point that should be focused on is that we never saw the best version of Ali against his best opposition.

By the time Ali fought Terrell he was a matured, experienced and rounded fighter and he completely outclassed his worthy rival. It was a bit of an exhibition in itself as was his pasting of the prone Cleveland Williams.

Ali was at his physical peak at that point, of that, Ted Spoon has no doubt. Speed, movement and punch variation was at its peak - he looked less tuned in against Folley, although still impressive.

Had he continued it would of been interesting to see just when his physical gradient of decline started. Some chances may of come earlier Frazier).

An observation: The Frazier of 1971 still gives the best version of Ali, possibly, just as much hell as he did as he did in reality.
I think he carried Folley a bit ,I beleive he could have finished it earlier if he had gone to work .I also beleive if Ali had still been Clay and a Protestant ,Catholic ,or whatever he would not have been called up.

[Bokaj]

Two ways to look at it.

1 ) If Ali was not suspended from 1967-1970 he would likley have less left for the Foreman fight, Lyle fight, Shavers fight, etc... The comeback made Ali hungry again.

2 ) Ali lost three of his best years, and would have pasted the best of the time. The time Ali took off took away some of the bounce in his legs.

I tend to think Ali's legacy is better with the comeback.

For my money, Ali was at his best in the first Liston fight.

I think he would physically be in a good state for those fights, but I can well see him taking an unnecessary loss in the early 70's because of a lapse in concentration due to overconficence. That loss would be avenged though. I'm pretty sure he would have dominated until the later part of the 70's, probably be dethroned by Holmes at some point.

In that case his career would be more similar to Louis's. I can see Ali possibly racking up more defenses and more straight victories, but not with too much of a difference. It would too a large part come down to whose era was seen as the more competitive. Today that's a given, but Frazier, Foreman and co would in this case be seen merely as very good contenders, not great champions. Liston's legacy would be unchanged, but there's always been something controversial with Ali's victories over Liston and some would refuse to take them at face value.

I would say, though, looking at films of Ali at his absolute peak (ca 1967-1970) would make it hard to claim that Louis was the greater of the two.

[Ted Spoon]

I think he carried Folley a bit ,I beleive he could have finished it earlier if he had gone to work .I also beleive if Ali had still been Clay and a Protestant ,Catholic ,or whatever he would not have been called up.

Yes, Ali did not really have to go through the gears to rid of Folley, who was fighting a special fighter during his poorer years.

It's a possibility that had Muhammad made his stance on religion and war more understated that the reverberations would not have been so severe, and his career may of taken on a different route.

Still, Ted Spoon believes the best version of Ali existed, and we got to see him fight many times during 1966 and 67'.

[Dempsey1238]

Of course, it's possible. But I can see him racking up another 20 wins before being defeated. He fought pretty frequently throughout his career, so those 20 wins might well have come in the next 5 or 6 years. I have no trouble whatsoever envisioning him going undefeated until at least 1973.

Not ALL records, as I said, he failed to beat Patterson's record(At the time) and was no WERE close to Dempsey's 25 first round kos.

Than we have the all time ko King in Archie Moore. Of couse I not going into the lower weights. Thsos guys pull off impossible feats lol.

[Dempsey1238]

I think he carried Folley a bit ,I beleive he could have finished it earlier if he had gone to work .I also beleive if Ali had still been Clay and a Protestant ,Catholic ,or whatever he would not have been called up.

The King of Rock and Roll was called up. And he was by image a Catholic, loved his mom, ete. Ali would have been called up either way imo.

[Bokaj]

The King of Rock and Roll was called up. And he was by image a Catholic, loved his mom, ete. Ali would have been called up either way imo.

But no other elite athletes were, were they?

[Bokaj]

Still, Ted Spoon believes the best version of Ali existed, and we got to see him fight many times during 1966 and 67'.

If Dundee thinks he was still improving I believe him. Furthermore, most boxers and other athletes reach their peak somewhere between 25 and 20. Ali seemed to be developing normally enough, so I would think the same would be true with him.

[Chinxkid]

I'd always heard, have to admit I don't know to what point this would have been the general consensus by those in the know, that in particular, a HW's prime is the late-twenties.

[Chinxkid]

I'd always heard, have to admit I don't know to what point this would have been the general consensus by those in the know, that in particular, a HW's prime is the late-twenties. I'm sure this might vary a bit from heavy to heavy but we're talking generally.

[Dempsey1238]

But no other elite athletes were, were they?

Just a few singers and actors, that I know of. And why does it have to be level at just athletes?? I mean these guys had just as much fame as Ali did.

[Sam Dixon]

Let's remember that before he was set to be drafted Ali was offered a position in the National Guard by the Illinois Governor (I believe it was), which he speaks about in 'My Own Story', and that would have been the same position that hundreds of other professional athletes in the states had through the Vietnam War, such as Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Bill Bradley, etc., etc., etc.

Also, when Ali was first called to take an army physical he was still Cassius Clay and wasn't exactly all that famous, as that happened at least a year before he defeated Liston for the title. Don't recall the exact date offhand, but it was in late 1962 or very early in 1963 at the latest.

[Ted Spoon]

If Dundee thinks he was still improving I believe him. Furthermore, most boxers and other athletes reach their peak somewhere between 25 and 20. Ali seemed to be developing normally enough, so I would think the same would be true with him.

That's fair enough, but there is always room for improvement and Dundee's position as Ali's coach was made to boost his mans legacy.

Ali, a specifically quick fighter, was at the apex of his physical output when he made his first exit. The world was robbed of a longer first title reign, but the brilliance vs. Williams, exhibition stuff, would not of been topped as it was the right opponent at the right time to amplify Ali's ability.

[mcvey]

Let's remember that before he was set to be drafted Ali was offered a position in the National Guard by the Illinois Governor (I believe it was), which he speaks about in 'My Own Story', and that would have been the same position that hundreds of other professional athletes in the states had through the Vietnam War, such as Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Bill Bradley, etc., etc., etc.

Also, when Ali was first called to take an army physical he was still Cassius Clay and wasn't exactly all that famous, as that happened at least a year before he defeated Liston for the title. Don't recall the exact date offhand, but it was in late 1962 or very early in 1963 at the latest.
True ,and wasnt he reclassified after he became a Muslim?

[Bokaj]

Just a few singers and actors, that I know of. And why does it have to be level at just athletes?? I mean these guys had just as much fame as Ali did.

Who were they and were they drafted to the war in Vietnam?

[Sam Dixon]

True ,and wasnt he reclassified after he became a Muslim?

Well, he did fail his army aptitude test not too long (like a month or two) after he publicly announced that he became a Muslim, which is when he was classified as 1-Y and ineligible, so that's not exactly the case. But when he was reclassified to the eligible 1-A in early '66, Ali did blaim the government and did claim that the main reason for their reclassifying him was because of him being a Muslim.

[Chinxkid]

Dundee said it: "We saw a lot, but we never saw the best Ali."

The enforced layoff simply adds to mystique of Muhammad Ali, but it is based on fact. He was evidently peaking into something unprecedented, sublime, in those last three fights: Williams (Superman in white boxing trunks floating and stinging in that Houston ring!), Terrell (totally eclipsing a bigger, live challenger), Folley (what a classy one-punch knockout!).

Ali would have been the epitome of the warrior/scholar: truly the greatest fighter of all time with the mind and heart of a prophet speaking up and acting for his people.

Though hated for his "radicalism" in simply speaking the truth, I believe eventually society would come around to see him and that period in history more or less as it does now.

And, as an athlete, he was already looking for something uniquely challenging, as defending the title against all available opposition "bum-of-the-month" style was getting a bit old, thus enter the Billy Goat and possible multiple opponents on one night.

He would have broken all the records and probably retired with his health, but that is why I love Ali: he took his lemons and made a marvelous lemonade, never complaining, taking the long way home eventually all the way to Zaire. In an imperfect world, he made it perfect.

Great Post! And I agree.