Joe Louis vs. Muhammad Ali

[cross_trainer]

Who takes it?

[McGrain]

SPECIFIC THINGS ABOUT LOUIS THAT WOULD BOTHER ALI:

Quick hands.
Great body to head attack.
Very good on the inside.
Impossble to intimidate.

SPECIFIC THINGS ABOUT ALI THAT WOULD BOTHER LOUIS:

Great agility.
Smart, smart fighter.
Excellent footwork.
Great counter-puncher.
Good at evading counters.
Excellent, excellent jab.


The key, for me, is Ali's stamina. The Ali peak was cut short - for me these men have it in common that their best years as fighters were contained within their first stretch defending the title.

I say stamina for many reasons. First, Ali will not KO Joe Louis. He may be physically capable of the feat but Louis is far, far, far to dangerous for him to try. He will win this (if he wins it) at distance and by counterpunching and by evading counterpunches.

How long can he maintain this pace? Louis wasn't the smartest of fighters, perhaps, but he doesn't have to be against Ali, the smartest heavyweight champ since Johnson, because his game plan is the same as it ever was - get this guy to fight. Although Ali brings new quality, Louis will employ the same tactic of persuing whilst shipping as little punishment as possible.

It is my opinion that Ali HAS to keep his distance where Joe is concerned because he can't afford to ship punches against this guy. It is possible that Ali can manage 15 at the pace Louis will set, I have to admit, it is possible that Ali's punches will have taken enough from Joe that Louis will not be able to capitalise when Ali starts to waver.

But that is not my prediction. Ali starts to run out of steam a little bit in the 9th and gets caught by the ropes. The body-head attack upsets him and he misses one coming over the top. Up at 8 his great chin and guile get him out of the round, but Louis is no Cooper.

The ref rescues Ali early in round ten, Louis TKO 10.

My top 5 heavywieghts, all time: 1) Ali, 2) Louis, 3) Liston, 4) Johnson, 5) Lewis.

[Scorpion]

Ali UD.

[groove]

Ali's jab is a big factor in this fight. If he lands it constantly then he controls the fight at long range. Body attacks never really did anything to Ali but he doesn't want to fight in-close to Louis. Ali's best bet is to keep on the move like in his fights against Liston and Williams. Louis likes hitting stationary targets (any boxer does) - he would have to move his feet a hell of a lot faster to catch Ali. I can't see Louis knocking Ali out - Ali never stayed in one place long enough to receive a combo of punches or he tied them up (maybe an exception was the first Frazier fight but Ali's stamina was weakened from the time out therefore he was trying to rest on the ropes - big mistake). Peak Ali that fought Williams wins by UD.

[McGrain]

Ali's jab is a big factor in this fight. If he lands it constantly then he controls the fight at long range. Body attacks never really did anything to Ali but he doesn't want to fight in-close to Louis. Ali's best bet is to keep on the move like in his fights against Liston and Williams. Louis like hitting stationary targets - he would have to move his feet a hell of a lot faster to catch Ali. I can't see Louis knocking Ali out - Ali never stayed in one place long enough to receive a combo of punches or he tied them up. Ali by UD.

Good post. I agree with you about Ali's jab.

And I hear you about Louis' feet. But the thing is, Louis often encountered this problem. And Billy Conn was quicker than Ali. People always talk about Conn's "mistake" but i'm not convinced. It must be sheer hell moving at that pace against a man who hits you, really hard, every time you try to stop and catch a breath. The desire to drive him of, even if just temporarily must come to every man due either to necessity or desire.

I submit that Ali, who was a big man, would not be able to run (and he'd win most rounds whilst doing so) for the full 15 at the pace Louis would set. I also submit that Louis' combination attacks (maybe #1 all time champ in this department) and finishing skills (#2 only to Tyson?) give him a very great chance to KO Ali.

[Ramon Rojo]

Ali by UD

[ChrisPontius]

CT, you have a rare but good sense of humor.

[Rattler]

The key is Ali's chin - it makes him moving work, since Louis won't be able to easily slow his feet by the occasional jaw shot.

Ali - UD (8-6-1)

[robert ungurean]

If its C.Clay era I go with Clay on pts.
If Its Ali era its a real tossup.

[jc]

iv got to go with Ali on pts. i do beleive Ali to be the greatest heavyweight of all time, but style wise I think Louis struggles aswel.

Ali was quicker had much better footwork, abnd his combinations were superior. All this troubles Louis as Ali could punch aswel.

i think Ali can take a clear 15 round pts win, and maybe even deck Louis along the way.

[janitor]

Muhammad Ali, early rounds knockout.

When did Ali ever knockout any world class oponent in the early rounds?

[Rattler]

When did Ali ever knockout any world class oponent in the early rounds?

Sonny Liston

It was like it was fixed, so vicious was the defeat.

[The Kurgan]

Cleveland Williams. That's how this fight would go. Louis is smaller than Williams, but a little bit better, so I can't see him falling more quickly than Williams. But he couldn't last much longer. He didn't have the chin or the defense for it. Ali would hit Louis at will, and with Louis' chin, he's out of there pretty quickly.

There was the slight fact that Cleveland Williams was shot. Literally.

[janitor]

Cleveland Williams. That's how this fight would go. Louis is smaller than Williams, but a little bit better, so I can't see him falling more quickly than Williams. But he couldn't last much longer. He didn't have the chin or the defense for it. Ali would hit Louis at will, and with Louis' chin, he's out of there pretty quickly.

If you think that Muhamad Ali's best win is over a shell of Cleavland Williams with one functional lung then you must have a verry low opinion of him. Williams did not even belong in the ring that night.

Even at his prime he did not bellong in the same sentence as Louis. I mean who did he ever beat?

So I will ask you again-

When did Ali ever achiev an early rond knockout over a legitimate challenger that justifies the asertion that he could do the same to an all time great at the peak of his abilities?

[janitor]

I didn't say that Williams was Ali's best win.

Louis wouldn't be Ali's best win.

No. He would be the best person he lost to.

[Muchmoore]

Ali is too fast for Louis. I like Louis but Conn danced circles around him and Conn is a lightheavyweight and not as fast as Ali either. Louis is always dangerous of course but a prime and focused Ali isnt going to be stopped.

Ali UD.

[McGrain]

Ali is too fast for Louis. I like Louis but Conn danced circles around him and Conn is a lightheavyweight and not as fast as Ali either

Ali may be to fast for Louis(def would be over the first 8 or so). But Ali is not faster than Billy Conn. In fact Conn is much quicker. Unless you are talking about handspeed. There's parity there.

[Muchmoore]

Ali may be to fast for Louis(def would be over the first 8 or so). But Ali is not faster than Billy Conn. In fact Conn is much quicker. Unless you are talking about handspeed. There's parity there.

Alis hand and feet speed is faster than Conns imo.

[rekcutnevets]

Ali wins this one by decision, and wins probably 10-5 in rounds.

I think it would look very similar to his first fight with Liston, only I think Joe will be more competative and go the distance.

[McGrain]

Alis hand and feet speed is faster than Conns imo.

Ali's hand speed is comparable to Conn's.

To say Ali's footspeed is greater is a proper reach I think.

He takes bigger steps though!

[Manassa]

Louis TKO15.

[Jear]

Alis lead right dominates this fight. Forget the jab Ali throws that sharp right straight down the pipe all night long.

Joe never adapted well during fights he stuck to his game plan and struggled if it didnt work. Conversely Ali adapted well and found ways to win.

People talk of Alis jab, movement and speed but the punch that won him his biggest fights was that fast, crisp lead right (Liston, Foreman, Frazier). It is unorthodox and unexpected so hard to prepare for or counter and kept those guys out of rhythm and off balance.

Joe was susceptible to right hands which further compounds his problem with Ali.

[janitor]

He wouldn't lose.

The best fighter Ali lost to in his prime would either be Joe Frazier or Ken Norton, both of whom would beat Louis.

Who beat's who across eras is pure guesswork.

The fact is that in terms of acomplishments both Frazier and Norton are pygmies next to Joe Louis. There is no reason in terms of their either their acomplishments or stylistic characteristics to imagine that they would beat Louis.

So the question is-

How well would you take it if Louis won this fight?

Hypotheticaly?

[janitor]

[quote=Homicidal Hank]Intelligent guesswork is based on fact. I am confident in my conclusions.


Then get betting on upcoming fights.

Better still.

Give me some tips so I don't have to work for a living.

Both Frazier and Norton accomplished more than Louis because their resumes are better.

But they are simply not.

In terms of number of win's against ranked contenders and depth of resume, you could combine their record's and Louis would still piss on it.

Louis didn't accomplish very much, frankly; his record is built mostly on nohopers. It's one of the more padded records in the divisions history.

This is simply not the case.

Louis beat the best opponents available.

You say his record is padded and built on no hopers?

So who are the people he should have fought?


If Louis won I would be disappointed,

You mean you would throw yourself in the nearest cannal?

[Duodenum]

Dance, dance, dance. Ali's legs, reach, and speed, would keep him too far away from Louis for too long for Joe to score enough to win. As Louis rarely threw punches unless his opponent was within range, he might be very fresh late in the match, and still dangerous. Joe was not particularly good at cutting off the ring, and his body attack would need to be from long range, exposing his head to Ali's counters. I do not think Muhammad would try to take Joe out, but settle for a comfortable decision win. It's very likely Joe does not take a backward step in this one, but he patiently would wait for his opponent to lose patience, and go after him. Ali would be smart enough and durable enough to outwait Joe, and prevail over the 15 round distance. I just can't see Louis winning against Muhammad on the scorecards.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ali UD. I couldn't see it any other way. Well, perhaps Ali late stoppage.

[Bummy Davis]

I like Louis big, even if Ali fought the perfect fight and boxed on his toes, Louis was the greatest power counter puncher of all time. Ali could run but he can't hide

[JIm Broughton]

If Billy Conn could box circles around Louis for 12 rounds and almost take it from Joe then I think a much bigger/stronger and just as fast Ali could win. We're talking about a man with an 80" reach and iron jaw to boot. Plus, Ali would'nt make the same mistake as Conn and try to take Joe out. He would stay on the outside and use his reach and footwork to his advantage. Joe fought in an era where HW's fought at generally slower pace. Compare that with Ali/Frazier 1. Much much faster pace. Could Joe keep up with that? I don't think so. Ali by decision if he does'nt get stupid.

[Joe E]

He wouldn't lose.

The best fighter Ali lost to in his prime would either be Joe Frazier or Ken Norton, both of whom would beat Louis.Old China Chin Norton beats Louis?Don't bet on it.:nono

[Lex]

Ahh, this just isn't a good matchup. Despite the greatness of Louis and Ali, that doesn't necessarily make for a good fight.

Louis matched against Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, even George Foreman, would be more interesting. If anybody could shock Big George with one shot, it'd be Joe Louis.

Ali would dance circles around Louis, beating him up with jabs and light, quick rights over the Louis jab. Joe would be plodding after Ali, unable to do much because Ali would smother Joe using his old tricks of holding behind the head and cupping the elbows and forearms of his opponent.

Ali's strategy would be the same as Schmeling's: keep tossing that right hand. The difference is, the quickness of Ali's right hand would do more damage and do it earlier.

The only shot Joe has at a win is to catch Ali with a left hook, which was always Ali's vulnerability. Muhammad would square off slightly from the waist up so he could counter quickly with a right over the opponent's left shoulder. It worked most of the time, but it also cost him against Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier who nailed him with left hooks over Ali's cocked, low right hand. But they couldn't keep Ali down and I don't think Louis would either.

Also, Ali's stamina was unmatched. If an opponent could go 15 rounds all out, Ali could go 16. If the other guy could throw 50 punches per round, Ali could throw 60.

And the gloves of that era would favor Ali. He'd have a better chance of slicing up and lumping up Joe's face. It wouldn't be pretty.

Ali by TKO, round 10.

[Lex]

Both Frazier and Norton accomplished more than Louis because their resumes are better. Louis didn't accomplish very much, frankly...

Frazier and Norton certainly had the advantage of proving themselves in an era when heavyweights were bigger and stronger than the average guy of the Louis era. It's a combination of the American diet and a more scientific approach to training.

But that doesn't mean Frazier and Norton necessarily faced competitors whose boxing skills and courage were better commensurate with their size and strength.

Jim Braddock and Max Schmeling were much slicker boxers than they're given credit for, easily equal to most of the competition Frazier and Norton faced.

Earnie Shavers was comparable to Max Baer and like Baer easily blasted through some fighters who were expected to give him better competition: Jimmy Young, Jimmy Ellis and Ken Norton. Unlike the Louis era, tho', Shavers was something of a rarity, a fighter willing to throw caution to the wind. I almost try to avoid looking at heavyweight fights from past decades because they put today's crop to shame in terms of courage and willingness to take risks in exchange for a shot at victory.

Arguably, Joe Louis is, so far, the hardest punching heavyweight in history, who is or was the complete package: Not just an overhand right like Shavers; a left hook and right uppercut like Tyson; a left hook like Frazier. Opponents and sparring partners routinely described Louis' blows as deceptively powerful and painful, not looking like much from a spectator's viewpoint because he didn't load up or reach off balance to connect. His shots were short, crisp and perfectly timed, like the Holyfield right that KO'd Qawi in their rematch.

[Sweet Science]

Ali would win this on points. It would be far from a comfortable win though, I believe his great chin would be tested to its limits as would his heart & stamina. I see Ali having to get up off the canvas (maybe even more than once) along the way to his victory. This would be a very dangerous and testing fight for Ali.

[Shake]

Norton winning against Louis is one of the more surprising things I've heard. In my view, Louis is all wrong for Kenny.


I'll go with Ali by UD.

[Luigi1985]

Louis TKO 14 Ali

[mr. magoo]

If I were to arrange this matchup I would choose the best version of these men. To start with, I would pick the Joe Louis from 1938, who defeated Shmeling in one round. He was 24 years old, and had a record of 39-1-33. This was quite possibly the best Joe Louis or at least very close. As far as Ali goes, I would probably go with the 1967 Ali who fought his last fight of the 60's against Zora Folley. He was 25 years old, and undefeated 29-0-22, with I believe 9 title defenses.

In 1938, at age 24, Louis was 6'2", 198 Lbs. In 1967, at age 25, Ali stood 6'3", and weighed 211 Lbs. Louis's best wins to date were over Max Schmeling, James Braddock, Tommy Farr, Primo Carnera, Bob Pastor, and Max Baer. Ali's best wins up to 1967 were, Sonny Liston, Henry Cooper, Floyd Patterson, Earnie Terrell, Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams.

Matchup: I don't know if Louis was a harder hitter than Sonny Liston but let's just say that he hit harder than everyone else Clay fought up to that point, and certainly was by far the best technician that Ali would have faced. He went 15 rounds on multiple occasions in his career, and took punishment from Max Baer, Joe Walcott, and numerous others, therefore, I don't see Ali scoring a KO or even TKO. He had very underrated handspeed, and could fight at all three ranges of distance, close, middle, long. Lastly, he was arguably the best heavyweight combination puncher in history, which he has still not been surpassed even to this day. He could throw combos, even while being just a few inches from the mid point of a fighter's body. He could dispose of giant heavyweights like Primo Carnera and Buddy Baer, or he could dispatch short awkward fighters like Tony Galento. He could also, solve the mysteries of quick skilled boxers like Conn. There was no profile of fighter that Louis couldn't/didn't beat in his career.

Ali was according to most experts, the fastest heavyweight of all time, and certainly much faster than anyone from Louis's era. He possesed a signifacntly long reach for even a fighter of 6'3", and utilized the ring and footwork like no other fighter since middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson. Although he was a pure boxer, he did posses a fair amount of power and finishing abilty, especially in his 20's, as he had 23 knockouts in 29 wins up through 1967. He was a man who through out his entire career would never truly be knocked out, and proved his heart and chin against some of the hardest hitters in the sports history, even well into his 30's. Ali had tremendous stamina and could keep up his production rate of punches, even in the late rounds of grueling championship fights. What's more, he knew how to play mind games and phsyche fighters out, which more often than not took them out of their fight game. Lastly, Ali was quite possibly one of , or perhaps thee best adaptor in heavyweight history. He could learn to overcome and change his method of attack, whereas so many other champions boxed poorly if their initial fight plan had failed them.

Conclusion : If I were forced to make a prediction, my vote would have to go to Ali by a close, yet unanimous decision. Louis would definately have his moments in this fight, and he'd certainly make Ali work his tail off for the win, but at the end of the day, Ali is just too fast and technically sound for Joe.

[Dostoevsky]

I think Ali would box circles around 'The shuffler'

[McGrain]

. Ali is a styilistic nightmare for Louis.


How so?

[My dinner with Conteh]

How so?


Watch both of them fight.

[McGrain]

Watch both of them fight.

Yeah i've done that.

Sylistically Tunney would be the most difficult for Louis I think. Reasons would be swiftness of foot, quick shots and good handspeed.

The same thing where Ali is concerned? Probably, but not to the same extent as Billy Conn. Ali has slower hands and feet than Billy. Also, Billy Conn moved in a very tight circle, something else Ali didn't do.

"Nightmare sytlistically" and "watch them both fight" isn't enough for me, i'd like to hear a bit more.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Movement bothered Louis- Conn, Walcott, Charles. Of course, Ali probably isn't a quick as a blown up middleweight but he's much stronger and has a chin 10 times as sturdy, and his superior power to light heavies like Conn and Tunney make him far more dangerous. Not that his power was great but it was decent.

The pattern of an Ali-Louis fight would likely play out like the first Conn meeting, with a separate ending. "He can run but he can't hide...but this fella never took a ten count in his life". Bad match up for Louis, in fact i'd be surprised if he won 2 out of 10 against a peak Ali. I'm not attempting to convince you, you've made your mind up already. That's fine. ;)

[McGrain]

Movement bothered Louis- Conn, Walcott, Charles. Of course, Ali probably isn't a quick as a blown up middleweight but he's much stronger and has a chin 10 times as sturdy, and his superior power to light heavies like Conn and Tunney make him far more dangerous. Not that his power was great but it was decent.

What I am interested in is how the exchanges might go. I see Ali winning the early rounds though maybe Louis would pinch one or two on aggression (possibly not). These rounds are crucial. Ali's footwork is what keeps him ahead on points and out of trouble, it is also around three times (scientifically calculated!) less economical than Louis' footwork. Ali must pick up this shortfall by taking a toll with his jab throughout these rounds, and combo's would be nice too. Louis had that lovely shoulder roll, how would that do v Ali's punches?


The pattern of an Ali-Louis fight would likely play out like the first Conn meeting, with a separate ending. "He can run but he can't hide...but this fella never took a ten count in his life". Bad match up for Louis

This only explores one end of the equation. The other end is that Ali has a lot, lot more to haul about the ring over a greater distance (because he doesn't use Conn's tighter circle). That's why I think the early exchanges are so important. If Louis can come through relatively unbattered, he is going to win this. You are right in what you say about Ali's chin, and the count, but Louis is the best composite puncher that Ali wold ever have faced. If Ali has to trade, with the power/arsenal deficiency, he will go or he will be rescued.


I'm not attempting to convince you, you've made your mind up already. That's fine. ;)

I pick Louis, yes. I think that he could weather the Ali attack which would happen after 8 or 9 and take his man out late.

But you are wrong what you say, I am open minded about it. The thing that irritates me about Ali-Anyone is you tend to get a lot of crash test dummy analysis, pages and pages about what Ali can do and will do and was capable of without a blink about the opposition. It has to be remembered that each of these guys would be facing the best he had ever taken on, and dismissing one as a "bad style match up" for the other is a little simplistic. There is certainly an element of that in this one, but I think it's at least reasonable to explore the specifics of a fight like this.

[groove]

I would like to see stats on Ali's fights from 64, winning the championship against Liston through to the 67 Folley fight. How many punches he scored against how many he took. Be interesting to know don't you think?

[janitor]

Of course what this forum raly needs is another Ali Louis thread.

Can we honestly say anything that has not already been said?

"We gonna call Joe Louis the water mealon because he has a head shaped like a water mealon"

Ali

"You can run but you can't hide kid"

Louis

[McGrain]

Of course what this forum raly needs is another Ali Louis thread.


Although this is actually the same one that CT started after we lost all the threads...has a life of its own!

[My dinner with Conteh]

Good post mate. Louis is just too slow moving I feel and cannot sustain the kind of pressure that would tire Ali out significantly. In fact, he could be stopped around the 10th if we're talking best nights, but it's fair to say it's a distance fight. I actually fancy both versions (e.g. 1966 and 1974) of Ali to beat Louis. I think Joe himself thought the young version might be too much (according to an interview I have from 1976), although he fancied himself against the Zaire model.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Of course what this forum raly needs is another Ali Louis thread.

Can we honestly say anything that has not already been said?

"We gonna call Joe Louis the water mealon because he has a head shaped like a water mealon"

Ali

"You can run but you can't hide kid"

Louis



Very true.

[groove]

what does Joe say in 1976 about younger Ali? Did he think he was much better than the one in the 70s? Thanks.

[My dinner with Conteh]

what does Joe say in 1976 about younger Ali? Did he think he was much better than the one in the 70s? Thanks.


I'll dig it out tomorrow, it's from Boxing Interntaional magazine. But he basically says he would have trouble with the young version because of the movement and would much prefer to fight the one that beat Foreman & Lyle.

[KTFO]

Watch both of them fight.


:rofl

[Manassa]

I pick Muhammad Ali to convincingly beat an average, going-through-the-motions Joe Louis, but a focused version with a gameplan soundly beats Ali. If anyone wants me to go into more detail, I will.

[McGrain]

I pick Muhammad Ali to convincingly beat an average, going-through-the-motions Joe Louis, but a focused version with a gameplan soundly beats Ali. If anyone wants me to go into more detail, I will.


I'd be up for hearing more detail for sure.

[Manassa]

Joe Louis, with his regular activity (for such a high profile fighter), could easily become complacent and careless. After he became sold on his own abilities, you only saw the real Joe Louis in rematches. He fought to impress as he was coming up, but got too confident after he started thrashing everybody. Schmeling beat him, which was a wake up call, but Louis avenged it convincingly and again became overconfident. Myriad challengers would give him mild to severe trouble when they shouldn't have done.

That Louis, who was purely a professional doing his job and nothing more, would probably get his arse handed to him by Muhammad Ali.

But the focused Louis? The one who entered rematches with a concentration rarely equalled, with a gameplan and fists ready to explode? It would be a completely different story.

The gameplan is the vital factor. Louis had all the tools necessary to beat Ali, but he wouldn't get by on those physicalities alone; he'd need to channel his strengths and execute his moves perfectly. This is Ali.

Ali had a quality jab and it worked wonderfully against fighters who lacked such an extension, but he didn't like being jabbed in return. It was all about his rhythm; like a drummer, Ali was a rhythmic performer. There are advantages and disadvantages to this type of fighter - he could string together some brilliant combinations using a basic 'beat', but that beat could be interrupted by a quick spontaneous attack. Such as a jab.

Louis' jab was arguably the most well rounded of all heavyweights'. It was certainly quick and straight enough to catch Ali off guard, providing he combined it with the next technique:

Glove blocking and parrying. Louis was adept at this skill, albeit against lesser opponents. With emphasis placed on using it however, I'm confident he could be trained to use it effectively against even Ali. Louis' reflexes probably matched Ali's (although it wasn't as obvious because he was less flash and more consummate) and could catch him out often. And once you nullify Ali's jab, that's a massive chunk of his game taken out.

There are other various improvements that a vengeful Louis would possess - such as the ability to cut down the ring. Ever seen Louis skip? He was surprisingly agile. Don't be fooled into thinking he was slow; it was just part of his usual method to pace himself and 'shuffle.' You can bet that a rematching Louis, having been perplexed by Ali's jab in the first fight, would also be keeping up that left hand.

So what's my prediction? Louis by late stoppage. Many will scream 'blasphemy' I'm sure, but I'm trying to think logically. Ali was a very durable fighter with a variety of survival techniques at his disposal and determination in abundance - but Louis was arguably the greatest hitter of all.

George Foreman likely hit with more raw power than Louis, but he didn't possess the same speed or technique. It's the volatile punch you don't see coming that knocks you out, not the clubbing shot that you have a split second to prepare for. Louis' punches would not move the heavy bag as much, but they would create more velocity; they'd travel through the air quicker and 'stab' the target rather than push it. Ali would have a hard time seeing these more direct punches.

After all, Ali was stunned far more against Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier than he was Foreman, and for those very reasons...

... Except Louis had a much more varied arsenal of punches in his repertoire. Where Frazier would hook Ali, stunning him, then hook him twice again from the same side, where Ali would now be defending from, Louis would hit him with a right, then maybe another right, then dig a couple downstairs. He was just a more complete puncher than Frazier, who could often be called 'predictable.' Against Ali at least, Frazier was all about landing the left hook. Every punch was Joe Louis' best, and his greatest strength lay in stringing them all together.

This focused Joe Louis, who may very well be able to cut the ring down on a dancing Ali, might just close the show with a well placed barrage. Single left hooks from Frazier were stunning Ali badly, but he couldn't follow them up. Also remember that this focused Louis, who was more careful and reserved (but still even more explosive and opportunistic than normal), would likely be far less hittable and grabbable than a lunging Foreman or plowing Frazier.

It wouldn't be a whitewash, not by a long shot. Ali might even be leading on the cards - but I expect Louis to take the fight in spectacular fashion. His eye would probably be busted and he'd have had to go through hell to get the win, but he'd do it (after losing the first fight).

[sconnolly]

Cleveland Williams. That's how this fight would go. Louis is smaller than Williams, but a little bit better, so I can't see him falling more quickly than Williams. But he couldn't last much longer. He didn't have the chin or the defense for it. Ali would hit Louis at will, and with Louis' chin, he's out of there pretty quickly.
I totally agree. Ali too big, too fast, too strong and too tough. Ali was not a great puncher but nonetheless was a damaging one. Loius' suspect chin (decked by Schmelling, Buddy Bear, Galento - for God's sake! et al and badly rocked by such 'punchers' as Billy Conn and Tami Mauriello), poor defence and slow footwork would have made him an easy target for Ali. Joe was a great puncher (probably the best pound for pound in the h/w division) but Ali could take a shot like no other fighter. He was also the expert on tying up fighters. You just were not going to catch him with combos no matter how fast your hands were. I believe that he could take Joe's shots - remember he was 20+ pounds heavier than Joe.

[McGrain]

Nice one Manassa, it's a fine effort.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Nice one Manassa, it's a fine effort.


It seems to be taking into account a peak Louis vs a sloppy Ali- who's won the first fight already.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali UD15 in a great matchup.

[McGrain]

It seems to be taking into account a peak Louis vs a sloppy Ali- who's won the first fight already.


Good read though.

[Manassa]

It seems to be taking into account a peak Louis vs a sloppy Ali- who's won the first fight already.

I'm assuming Ali is at his peak as well.

[Lex]

If I were to arrange this matchup I would choose the best version of these men. To start with, I would pick the Joe Louis from 1938 ... As far as Ali goes, I would probably go with the 1967 Ali who fought his last fight of the 60's against Zora Folley. He was 25 years old, and undefeated 29-0-22, with I believe 9 title defenses.

Good observation. I agree entirely on Louis, but I tend to favor the 1973 Ali after losing to Norton. The loss made him more focused, serious about conditioning and sharpened him up better than any of his prior fights after returning to the ring. He was also naturallly stronger and more fluid than the 1960s Ali. Even tho' the weight was approximately the same (212 lbs. against Norton in the second fight and 211.5 lbs against Folley), Ali looks bigger and stronger in 1973.

The 1973 Ali was also less harum scarum in defense, not just relying on fast footwork and jerking his head back to avoid punches, but pacing himself, mixing up smooth footwork with sly clinching, holding and steering of his opponent to dictate the pace of fights.

Occasionally ESPN will show Ali vs. Norton 1 and 2 back to back. It's really interesting to see how much Ali adapted and improved, while Norton fought the same fight and was gradually worn down in the rematch.

[Sonny Carson]

I pick Muhammad Ali to convincingly beat an average, going-through-the-motions Joe Louis, but a focused version with a gameplan soundly beats Ali. If anyone wants me to go into more detail, I will.
I agree with you Joe Louis fists knew no granite chin. Braddock, Baer, and Galento had never been stopped before Joe Louis. If he caught the young Ali with a fierce combination Ali doesn't get up. Remember what Henry Cooper did to him Joe would do it worse.

Louis 13th round KO.

[mcvey]

I'm assuming Ali is at his peak as well.
Its also entirely possible that Ali keeps Louis on the end of his left for the majority of the rounds,ties him up when he has to and lands enough rights to keep Louis wary and cautious,and closes the show stopping Louis on his feet around the 14th,personally I see Ali taking a decision.Louis had a decent defence but didnt move his head much ,could be hurt and floored ,though he recuperated well,what you look like in the gym doesnt mean a whole lot in the ring,most of us have seen good "gym fighters " who looked entirely different in an actual fight,fact is Louis never demonstrated fast feet in the ring,maybe because in his prime ,he was allways the one initiating the action ,,the hunter rather than the hunted,apart from Galento,B Baer ,and Mauriello ,who all "went for broke",and gave Louis some sticky moments,most opponents backpedalled away from the "Bomber "to keep from being "bombed". I can see Louis hurting Ali,I can also see Ali momentarily staggering Louis,he hit a bit harder with his right than people appreciate,and if Conn at 169 ,and no hitter could get Joes attention,Ali could,you say its the punches you dont see that affect yuo the most ,entirely true ,but this would work both ways ,who had better handspeed than Ali? Due to his better durabilty and crouching style ,I give Dempsey a better shot against Ali than Louis,and for the same reason ,I thinkhe would have taken Louis inside three rounds,though Louis is the more complete fighter.

[NickHudson]

This is how I see it too, McVey.

Full kudos to Manassa for a well written and original post supporting Louis, but I smell an air of desperation in many attempts to find a conqueror over prime Ali. You have to dig really deep to find any sort of weaknesses or problems that were evident in his actual fights (at least from 64-67 which is the relevent time frame).

Whereas, it is much easier to pick holes in Louis' accomplishments. As tremendous as he was, there were a few inexcusable losses, knock downs and struggles along the way.

Of course, there are no absolutes in sport, certainly not in fantasy match-ups, but if we are playing the odds...


Its also entirely possible that Ali keeps Louis on the end of his left for the majority of the rounds,ties him up when he has to and lands enough rights to keep Louis wary and cautious,and closes the show stopping Louis on his feet around the 14th,personally I see Ali taking a decision.Louis had a decent defence but didnt move his head much ,could be hurt and floored ,though he recuperated well,what you look like in the gym doesnt mean a whole lot in the ring,most of us have seen good "gym fighters " who looked entirely different in an actual fight,fact is Louis never demonstrated fast feet in the ring,maybe because in his prime ,he was allways the one initiating the action ,,the hunter rather than the hunted,apart from Galento,B Baer ,and Mauriello ,who all "went for broke",and gave Louis some sticky moments,most opponents backpedalled away from the "Bomber "to keep from being "bombed". I can see Louis hurting Ali,I can also see Ali momentarily staggering Louis,he hit a bit harder with his right than people appreciate,and if Conn at 169 ,and no hitter could get Joes attention,Ali could,you say its the punches you dont see that affect yuo the most ,entirely true ,but this would work both ways ,who had better handspeed than Ali? Due to his better durabilty and crouching style ,I give Dempsey a better shot against Ali than Louis,and for the same reason ,I thinkhe would have taken Louis inside three rounds,though Louis is the more complete fighter.

[mcvey]

Joe Louis, with his regular activity (for such a high profile fighter), could easily become complacent and careless. After he became sold on his own abilities, you only saw the real Joe Louis in rematches. He fought to impress as he was coming up, but got too confident after he started thrashing everybody. Schmeling beat him, which was a wake up call, but Louis avenged it convincingly and again became overconfident. Myriad challengers would give him mild to severe trouble when they shouldn't have done.

That Louis, who was purely a professional doing his job and nothing more, would probably get his arse handed to him by Muhammad Ali.

But the focused Louis? The one who entered rematches with a concentration rarely equalled, with a gameplan and fists ready to explode? It would be a completely different story.

The gameplan is the vital factor. Louis had all the tools necessary to beat Ali, but he wouldn't get by on those physicalities alone; he'd need to channel his strengths and execute his moves perfectly. This is Ali.

Ali had a quality jab and it worked wonderfully against fighters who lacked such an extension, but he didn't like being jabbed in return. It was all about his rhythm; like a drummer, Ali was a rhythmic performer. There are advantages and disadvantages to this type of fighter - he could string together some brilliant combinations using a basic 'beat', but that beat could be interrupted by a quick spontaneous attack. Such as a jab.

Louis' jab was arguably the most well rounded of all heavyweights'. It was certainly quick and straight enough to catch Ali off guard, providing he combined it with the next technique:

Glove blocking and parrying. Louis was adept at this skill, albeit against lesser opponents. With emphasis placed on using it however, I'm confident he could be trained to use it effectively against even Ali. Louis' reflexes probably matched Ali's (although it wasn't as obvious because he was less flash and more consummate) and could catch him out often. And once you nullify Ali's jab, that's a massive chunk of his game taken out.

There are other various improvements that a vengeful Louis would possess - such as the ability to cut down the ring. Ever seen Louis skip? He was surprisingly agile. Don't be fooled into thinking he was slow; it was just part of his usual method to pace himself and 'shuffle.' You can bet that a rematching Louis, having been perplexed by Ali's jab in the first fight, would also be keeping up that left hand.

So what's my prediction? Louis by late stoppage. Many will scream 'blasphemy' I'm sure, but I'm trying to think logically. Ali was a very durable fighter with a variety of survival techniques at his disposal and determination in abundance - but Louis was arguably the greatest hitter of all.

George Foreman likely hit with more raw power than Louis, but he didn't possess the same speed or technique. It's the volatile punch you don't see coming that knocks you out, not the clubbing shot that you have a split second to prepare for. Louis' punches would not move the heavy bag as much, but they would create more velocity; they'd travel through the air quicker and 'stab' the target rather than push it. Ali would have a hard time seeing these more direct punches.

After all, Ali was stunned far more against Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier than he was Foreman, and for those very reasons...

... Except Louis had a much more varied arsenal of punches in his repertoire. Where Frazier would hook Ali, stunning him, then hook him twice again from the same side, where Ali would now be defending from, Louis would hit him with a right, then maybe another right, then dig a couple downstairs. He was just a more complete puncher than Frazier, who could often be called 'predictable.' Against Ali at least, Frazier was all about landing the left hook. Every punch was Joe Louis' best, and his greatest strength lay in stringing them all together.

This focused Joe Louis, who may very well be able to cut the ring down on a dancing Ali, might just close the show with a well placed barrage. Single left hooks from Frazier were stunning Ali badly, but he couldn't follow them up. Also remember that this focused Louis, who was more careful and reserved (but still even more explosive and opportunistic than normal), would likely be far less hittable and grabbable than a lunging Foreman or plowing Frazier.

It wouldn't be a whitewash, not by a long shot. Ali might even be leading on the cards - but I expect Louis to take the fight in spectacular fashion. His eye would probably be busted and he'd have had to go through hell to get the win, but he'd do it (after losing the first fight).
Most of the punchers Louis met floored him,[apart from Max Baer ,who was scared stiff],and two of them kept him there,of the punchers Ali met three floored him,none stopped him .Ali stopped bangers like Liston,Foreman ,and Lyle,and ruined another,Frazier.The idea that Louis was murder in rematches is abit exaggerated ,I think,Conn was washed up by the time he fought Louis again,he had gained 13 pounds all of it suet ,he was an easy target for Louis,Walcott gave Louis fits in both fights ,and the Champion was behind on points going into the 11th and last round,the ko of B Baer was contraversial though terrific to view,Baer,s handlers contended that louis landed after the bell and refused to let Buddy out for the second,,the systematic disection of Arturo Godoy in the rematch was probably as good as it gets for Joe,but Godoy was never that formidable to begin with.