How many times did Sugar Ray Robinson lose in his prime??

[DINAMITA]

How many times did Sugar Ray Robinson lose in his prime??

And he fought at welterweight and middleweight: would he have beaten Sugar Ray Leonard at welterweight, and Hagler/Monzon/whoever you think was the greatest at middleweight?

[Sweet Pea]

How many times did Sugar Ray Robinson lose in his prime??

And he fought at welterweight and middleweight: would he have beaten Sugar Ray Leonard at welterweight, and Hagler/Monzon/whoever you think was the greatest at middleweight?15 of his 19 losses came past the age of 35, but the only loss I'd say he was given in his actual prime was his loss in the second fight with the bigger LaMotta, which of course he avenged more than enough.

You could argue he was in his MW prime when he lost the first fight with Turpin as well.

Leonard/Robinson at WW is a very interesting matchup for me, though most others will choose Robinson clearly. I don't think he'd beat Monzon at MW, but Hagler is a closer call. Not prepared to directly favor Robinson over any of the top MW's like Monzon, Hagler, Hopkins, etc.

[teeto]

In his absolute prime though, in the true sense of the word, he only lost once, to a larger man who he would end up with 5 wins over.

[teeto]

Edit= he may have possibly still been in his physical prime when he lost his next one, but of course, he was fighting naturally larger men

[teeto]

Imo, he would edge Leonard out in a true grueling battle at 147, at 160 i still think on his very best night he may the best h2h there also, but in general i may pick Hagler or Monzon over him in a fantasy match-up, but i just dont know, it really is the hardest weight division to pick the top guys against each other, they were all so dominant at what they did best

[teeto]

15 of his 19 losses came past the age of 35, but the only loss I'd say he was given in his actual prime was his loss in the second fight with the bigger LaMotta, which of course he avenged more than enough.

You could argue he was in his MW prime when he lost the first fight with Turpin as well.

Leonard/Robinson at WW is a very interesting matchup for me, though most others will choose Robinson clearly. I don't think he'd beat Monzon at MW, but Hagler is a closer call. Not prepared to directly favor Robinson over any of the top MW's like Monzon, Hagler, Hopkins, etc.
Im more or less exactly on the same wavelength Pea, not ready to pick him over any of the top 160ers, but would imagine myslf doing so over Hagler before Monzon for some reason

[mcvey]

I would say three once to Turpin ,when he had been having a time in Paris ,and took his eye off the ball, once to Lamotta ,and once to Maxim,in each of these contests he was conceding at least 16lbs,his loss to Turpin occurred when he was 30,to Maxim when he was 31.His next loss ,to Tiger
Jones ,came during his first comeback at 34.He was ahead on points against maxim before succombing to the heat,he avenged the Turpin defeat with a ko victory ,and he 4 times beat Lamotta ,the last time by stoppage.Pretty impessive.

[Ted Spoon]

You can't ever really fault Robbie, and that is why he is rated as high as he is.

LaMotta was a bigger man when he won and Turpin was an unknown quantity, who was squeezed out of the picture in the rematch.

Robinson's agreed prime resides alongside the welterweight poundage, and when LaMotta beat him he was a genuine middleweight - so it's somewhat of an unfair loss where he was bullied by a bigger man.

Still, out of Robinson's losses, the LaMotta one and the Turpin one carry the most weight while the saga of losing and picking up the middleweight title multiple times should count against his middleweight pedigree, even though he was aging.

[la-califa]

What was the weight for the LaMotta match? Robinson was campaigning as a Welterweight at the time. I think La Motta always fought as a Middleweight.

[teeto]

Was LaMotta something like 15 pounds heavier? Cant remember, but it was considerable

[jowcol]

Was LaMotta something like 15 pounds heavier? Cant remember, but it was considerable

15-16 I think, something like that. The amazing thing is that the two of them stepped back into the ring a mere 2-3 weeks later and Ray won decisively...

[TBooze]

In his absolute prime though, in the true sense of the word, he only lost once, to a larger man who he would end up with 5 wins over.

Yes I would agree, some would add, Turpin, but Robinson was fighting 13lbs above his prime weight.

Reading up on a few his early fights hemay of been lucky against Servo second time round.

[mcvey]

What was the weight for the LaMotta match? Robinson was campaigning as a Welterweight at the time. I think La Motta always fought as a Middleweight.
Weights SRR 144 Lamotta 160 ,but he probably went up about 3 /4 lbs,while Robbie a natural welter would be unlikely to weigh any more.

[PowerPuncher]

I would say three once to Turpin ,when he had been having a time in Paris ,and took his eye off the ball, once to Lamotta ,and once to Maxim,in each of these contests he was conceding at least 16lbs.

He only conceeded 4lbs against Turpin

He arguably lost the first Galivan fight.

He didn't fight the best of his era, Robinson probably gets less flack for this than any other fighter for his avoidance of the black dynamite crew and especially Burley and Holman WIlliams. And people act like Mayweather is the first fighter to use the risk-reward ratio management.

[TBooze]

He only conceeded 4lbs against Turpin

He arguably lost the first Galivan fight.

He didn't fight the best of his era, Robinson probably gets less flack for this than any other fighter for his avoidance of the black dynamite crew and especially Burley and Holman WIlliams. And people act like Mayweather is the first fighter to use the risk-reward ratio management.

Robinson did not dodge Burley and Williams wholly because he was worried about losing. Robinson was a businessman first and full most, if you made him money he fought you.

Burley and Williams did not pay as well as some other white fighters.

[PowerPuncher]

Robinson did not dodge Burley and Williams wholly because he was worried about losing. Robinson was a businessman first and full most, if you made him money he fought you.

Burley and Williams did not pay as well as some other white fighters.

BS Burley offered Robinson his biggest payday at 1 point and he didnt take it

Robinson actually offered Moore a fight, I think after Moore beat Maxim but only offered the champ 30% I think it was, Moore just asked his wife to get his coat and left

[Bummy Davis]

After the Rocky Graziano fight, his loss to Maxim, he started to slip but after the Turpin victory and after the Graziano fight(in which he was dropped) he had a record of 130-2-2 losing only to Lamotta and Turpin...Had he retired at the point his record would have been unmatched prior to the Turpin fight he had a record of 127-1-2

[TBooze]

BS Burley offered Robinson his biggest payday at 1 point and he didnt take it

Robinson actually offered Moore a fight, I think after Moore beat Maxim but only offered the champ 30% I think it was, Moore just asked his wife to get his coat and left

Moore/Robinson could of made his Sweetness an awful lot of money, in 55/56.

Burley is the President of the who needs him? club.

So what if he offered for instance Ray $500,000? Ray makes that touring Europe beating the local favourites then as a finale giving Turpin a title shot. Sure it sort of backfired in that Robsinson lost the finale, but he made a lot of easy money, something that would not of happened if he fought Williams or Burley.

This is pro boxing, fighters are allowed to be shrewd, as much as us fans hate it sometimes.

[PowerPuncher]

Moore/Robinson could of made his Sweetness an awful lot of money, in 55/56.

Burley is the President of the who needs him? club.

So what if he offered for instance Ray $500,000? Ray makes that touring Europe beating the local favourites then as a finale giving Turpin a title shot. Sure it sort of backfired in that Robsinson lost the finale, but he made a lot of easy money, something that would not of happened if he fought Williams or Burley.

This is pro boxing, fighters are allowed to be shrewd, as much as us fans hate it sometimes.

Firstly Burley did offer SRR a career high payday.

Boxers are allowed to be shrewd but it does take away from their greatness.

The greatest fighters of SRRs era after SRR were: Charles, Moore, Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid and Loyd Marshall. (OK maybe Galivan can be in that group but he wasnt the best). And he didn't fight any of those guys. Now Moore and Charles are exludable, they were always in higher divisions, but the others were all available and brought big money.

People rag on Roy Jones all day for avoiding fighters but RJJ beat the best 2 of his era. Mayweather gets ragged on but beat everyone at 130 (called out the 126 champ), beat the no1 at 135, no1 at 140 and so on.

Its just a double standards thing with Sugar Ray that seems a bit unfair

[TBooze]

Firstly Burley did offer SRR a career high payday.

Boxers are allowed to be shrewd but it does take away from their greatness.

The greatest fighters of SRRs era after SRR were: Charles, Moore, Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid and Loyd Marshall. (OK maybe Galivan can be in that group but he wasnt the best). And he didn't fight any of those guys. Now Moore and Charles are exludable, they were always in higher divisions, but the others were all available and brought big money.

People rag on Roy Jones all day for avoiding fighters but RJJ beat the best 2 of his era. Mayweather gets ragged on but beat everyone at 130 (called out the 126 champ), beat the no1 at 135, no1 at 140 and so on.

Its just a double standards thing with Sugar Ray that seems a bit unfair

Roy Jr and Lil Floyd did not step into the ring 201 times as a pro. Robinson beat more top 20 fighters than either had fights... No double standard it is just Robinson set the bar very, very high and no one has yet touched it; let alone topped it!

Jones and Mayweather were good, probably even in due course great, but neither can touch Robinson. If Jones had tried, he may of, but he decided to take the easier options.

[PowerPuncher]

Roy Jr and Lil Floyd did not step into the ring 201 times as a pro. Robinson beat more top 20 fighters than either had fights... No double standard it is just Robinson set the bar very, very high and no one has yet touched it; let alone topped it!

Jones and Mayweather were good, probably even in due course great, but neither can touch Robinson. If Jones had tried, he may of, but he decided to take the easier options.

170 fights is all well and good but how many true greats? Thats all that truly matters, the best fighting the best. You talk about top20 guys, this is not that difficult for an elite fighter. We see what happened when RJJ and Mayweather fought lower top 10 guys like Corley/Woods, complete and utter start to finnish domination. Do you really think 50 extra Corleys and 50 extras Woods would have given them much problems? Exactly. SRR and the all timers may have had more fights but theres allot of rif raf padding in those extra fights.

I'm not ranking Mayweather/RJJ above SRR but its not as cut and dry as the general consensus assumes

[Nobudius]

power puncher, your SRR argument seems like a "justification" for Jones & Mayweather's criticisms.

What is not "cut and dry" is Robinson avoiding all the possible fighters you mentioned. Do a timeline, & research where they were "at" when SRR was coming up. From the accounts I've seen & read, Burley seems to have understood Robinson's position rather well. With regret, but not in anger or bitterness.

When you fight THAT often, fighters are bound to lose to opposition they can/should beat. If Jones & Mayweather fought 15-20 times a year against the Corley's & Woods, would it be shocking if they dropped a few bouts? There is no rest period, or time to recuperate. They can AFFORD to take breaks now. But if you need to eat & support a family, you take as many fights as you can. Fighters such as Henry Armstrong & Ike Williams simply burned out at a relatively young age due to the sheer volume of fights.

What also needs to be factored (heavily, I might add) is the war, & the racial undertones of the time period, & how it effected boxing.