How would history remember these fighters if there was no film?

[janitor]

Lets imagine that there was no film of the following fighters-

Roberto Duran

Mike Tyson

Lennox Lewis

Roy Jones

Winky Wright

Say the only sources were their records and the testimony of people such as ourselves (you have seen them all in action).

1. How would they be perceived based on their records and typical tesimonies?

2. What would your testimony add to that?

[Jd!]

tyson would be considered the potential greatest of them all

duran would possibly be considered less than what he is

lewis would be held in less regard - altohugh in 10-20 years his resume and achievements will take over and he'll shoot up the heavyweight rankings

roy jones would be considered the second coming of harry greb - in a way, whereas greb has the resume that makes him such a big conundrum, jones would have the skillset and ability, plus his two wins over bhop and toney would make him VERY difficult to rank, especially as his resume isnt the greatest, but his achievements are VERY strong.

he might find himself elevated up the p4p rankings in time.

winky - i dont know enough about to warrant a guess, i'd have to say he probably wouldnt be considered anything on the previous fighters without any film.

[radianttwilight]

I'll comment on Tyson. He would drop alot IMO, because people would only look at his resume and see that he lost to the best fighters he fought. Because we have film, though, it's clear that as early as Bruno I he was slipping from his dedication - he wasn't using the jab, punching in his combinations, or moving his head.

The unbiased, savvy observer can tell that the Tyson who fought from 1989ish onward was not the same machine that fought prior to then.

In a way, we'd become the Nat Fleischers of our era - we'd claim that Tyson only lost when he lost his inner fire and wasn't at his best, but the paper facts would look like he just got owned by underdogs...Tyson would be just like Dempsey, actually, except a thicker resume.

On paper, he would have blown out a long list of nobodys (remember, his opponents wouldn't be filmed, either, so many would label big men like Biggs, Tucker, Smith et. al as a bunch of big oafs) before being crushed by an even worse nobody (Douglas, who on paper is a terrible fighter, but on film he looks very good when "on") and the best fighters he fought (Holyfield and Lewis).

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis would be the greatest of them all.

You see, he survived punches from big hitters like Tua, Briggs, etc, so the McCall and Rahman fights clearly were fixes where he laid down for money. Although no actual fight reports mentions this, several years after his legacy is sealed, unknown eye witnesses suddenly testified to it.

[Maxmomer]

You see, he survived punches from big hitters like Tua, Briggs, etc, so the McCall and Rahman fights clearly were fixes where he laid down for money. Although no actual fight reports mentions this, several years after his legacy is sealed, unknown eye witnesses suddenly testified to it.

Ah, come on, man!

[Boilermaker]

Lewis would be the greatest of them all.

You see, he survived punches from big hitters like Tua, Briggs, etc, so the McCall and Rahman fights clearly were fixes where he laid down for money. Although no actual fight reports mentions this, several years after his legacy is sealed, unknown eye witnesses suddenly testified to it.

What about McCall! He obviously wore the cuffs in most of his fights as evidenced by the fact that he was never off his feet, or troubled by another fighter, but simply held back, and relied on corrupt judges decisions. When he got his chance against Lewis, he knocked him cold. IN the rematch his acting was so bad that he simply refused to even throw a punch or raise a guard and the ref stopped the fight (although, i wonder whether this would be construed as more fiction than fact).

Another interesting fighter could be Joe Mesi. May have been anything if the Vlad Klitchsko hadnt drawn a Jack Johnson style reverse colour line.

[McGrain]

Lets imagine that there was no film of the following fighters-

Roberto Duran

Mike Tyson

Lennox Lewis

Roy Jones

Winky Wright

Say the only sources were their records and the testimony of people such as ourselves (you have seen them all in action).

1. How would they be perceived based on their records and typical tesimonies?

2. What would your testimony add to that?


What an excellent and interesting thread. No clue. But what interests me is what a hard time historians and those with an interest would have convincing people that Tyson and Jones were as special as they say.

[TommyV]

Depends really. I mean Tyson would be rated extremely highly if you listened to what people said, because everybody would be going on about how he destroyed people early on, but if you look at his record he would be rated lower than he is because of the lack of names who you would regard as elite.

[janitor]

What an excellent and interesting thread. No clue. But what interests me is what a hard time historians and those with an interest would have convincing people that Tyson and Jones were as special as they say.

It was those two more than most that I was thinking of.

Fighters that obviously had something verry special that would rely on good quality film to convey it.

[McGrain]

Depends really. I mean Tyson would be rated extremely highly if you listened to what people said, because everybody would be going on about how he destroyed people early on, but if you look at his record he would be rated lower than he is because of the lack of names who you would regard as elite.


I totally disagree with this.

Tyson's paper record shows he failed v every prime great he took on. It's how impressive he looked on film that leads to his consistant high rating.

[McGrain]

It was those two more than most that I was thinking of.

Fighters that obviously had something verry special that would rely on good quality film to convey it.

They also have this in common - no great wins for Tyson and very few for Jones. That is, they have nothing like the wins that their talent "deserves".

Let me reverse the question - which fighters do you think would have their reputations vastly enhaned if their body of work was available on film a la Tyson?

Tougher question, I think.

[TommyV]

I totally disagree with this.

Tyson's paper record shows he failed v every prime great he took on. It's how impressive he looked on film that leads to his consistant high rating.

That's what I said. :huh

If you didn't look at his record and hadn't seen him fight, people that did would go on about how impressive he looked KO'ing journeyman.

But if you looked at his record you would see a lack of names and defeats against the elite fighters he did take on.

[janitor]

They also have this in common - no great wins for Tyson and very few for Jones. That is, they have nothing like the wins that their talent "deserves".

Let me reverse the question - which fighters do you think would have their reputations vastly enhaned if their body of work was available on film a la Tyson?

Tougher question, I think.

Tough indeed.

I think the following fighters would go up significantly if their best stuff was on film.

John L Sullivan
(I think we would see a terrific puncher with fast hands who was verry polished)

Young Griffo
(Rattlesnake like reflexes/Roy Jones effect)

Bob Fitzsimmons
(Seeing those sudden finishes against much bigger opponents in technicolour could only help him)

Tommy Ryan
(This is a pound for pound great who is virtualy forgotten by the modern fan)

Barbados Joe Walcott
(If we could see him beating up light heavyweights like Choynsky and Gardiner his credentials as a pound for pound puncher would be huge)

Sam Langford
(If his body of work was there to be seen in detail I think a lot of people could have him in their top 10 heavyweights)

Harry Wills
(I think there must be a lot of layers to his game that contemporary acounts dont do justice to)

[McGrain]

That's what I said. :huh .

Oh yeah!

Sorry dude.

[McGrain]

Tough indeed.

I think the following fighters would go up significantly if their best stuff was on film.

John L Sullivan
(I think we would see a terrific puncher with fast hands who was verry polished)

Young Griffo
(Rattlesnake like reflexes/Roy Jones effect)

Bob Fitzsimmons
(Seeing those sudden finishes against much bigger opponents in technicolour could only help him)

Tommy Ryan
(This is a pound for pound great who is virtualy forgotten by the modern fan)

Barbados Joe Walcott
(If we could see him beating up light heavyweights like Choynsky and Gardiner his credentials as a pound for pound puncher would be huge)

Sam Langford
(If his body of work was there to be seen in detail I think a lot of people could have him in their top 10 heavyweights)

Harry Wills
(I think there must be a lot of layers to his game that contemporary acounts dont do justice to)


These are fine picks. I especially agree with Joe Walcott.

Some others:

NP Jack Dempsey.

Joe Gans.

And maybe most of all, Peter Jackson. Jackson would be the guy who would receive the biggest boost in terms of all time rankings etc., if you could see all his bouts on DVD. I bet he'd find his way into top 15's across the board, at a guess.

[Jd!]

not harry greb?

[janitor]

not harry greb?

Harry Greb is prety highly rated anyway so I think that there are other fighters who could enjoy bigger boosts if their best stuff was filmed.

[McGrain]

Also: Greb may have had one of those styles that looked worse than the results it brought - it also, like Rocky Marciano, may have contained - in fact I will say almost certainly DID contain - subtilties that would not neccesarily lend itself to standard filming techniques.

I agree that there are others who would benifit before him.

[prime]

Thanks to Janitor for an insightful thread idea.

Film and first-hand testimony are key because mere statistics do not tell half the story.

This is why I respect contemporary opinions on fighters we cannot study on film. What a tragedy to only be able to look at Ali's record and a few snippets of, say, Round 4 against Cooper, Round 12 against Norton the first time around, and any round against Young or Evangelista! The "Greatest", my eye!