Joe Frazier (FOTC version) vs Lennox Lewis (late 90s)

[Holmes' Jab]

15 rounds, who wins?

I think I put foward this matchup very recently in the dream matchup thread, I've been thinking this one over for a while now and I still think it'd be a very intruguing fight- very close to call.

As far as Frazier is concerned the main reason some people (myself included) rank him very high up in the Top 10 is most likely because of his win against Ali in their first fight. It has to be said Frazier was the only fighter to beat Ali when he was still in his absolute prime, which counts for alot. There aren't many HW's in history who I'd favour head-to-head against a '71 Frazier- Foreman (as proved) and Liston may well have him stylistically checked, Holmes and pre-Vietman Ali- possibly?

The more I think about it, though the more I think Lewis would slot into this category. He has the boxing skills (jab), physical attributes as well as additional punching power (a notch up from Ali's) and ring strategy etc to pose Frazier with many headaches. To counter that Fraziers sheer intensity, toughness, stamina and wicked left hook could well end Lewis' night early should he not bring his total A game into the ring.

My gut instinct says Lewis could well edge a tight decision, a stoppage win for Frazier wouldn't be out of the question though.

Lewis SD15 Frazier

[Denny Cruser]

I think that this is not real match up, cause Frazier is too small. But if to analyze, one must remember, that Frazier lacked one-punch-KO power and rarely/never KO real big gyus with one punch. Joe works as machine-gun, landing one left-hook after one with accumulative effect. Lewis has great defence against left-hooks by blocking and working by torso and such left-hookers as Ruddock, Tua, Holyfiled, in principle Briggs, Morrison, in principle Butler and others are failed to succes with left-hooks.
In addition, Lewis has one of the most terrific uppercuts of all-time HWs, and all small sluggers and swarmers always pain from such punch. Even Tyson with his great defence always pain from uppercuts, as he coming low. Frazier will take uppercuts and gets back. Thats all, further Joe cant take those punches from Lewis. I think such boxers are made for Lewis. Joe will be nightmare for ALi, Holmes, but not for Lewis. IMO.

[Senya13]

Lewis by KO. Frazier is too small, his skills are a class below Lewis', he doesn't have solid enough chin to last the distance and doesn't have enough punching power to hope for a lucky punch.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis by KO within 5 rounds. Even the FOTC Frazier got hit a LOT during the first 5 rounds when he "warmed up". Against Ali he could afford that but Ali does not have the concussive force on his punches needed to stop Frazier. Lewis did, just like Foreman. He tear Frazier up from the outside with straight right hands and uppercuts on the inside, after which he'd tie Frazier up to neutralise him at Frazier's best range.

[Sonny's jab]

I think Frazier would win it on points.

[McGrain]

I think this would be a beut. Lewis may be made for Frazier. He was always a little reticent - I was speaking to Luigi about this the other day, how Lewis probably had the physical capability to KO Willard over 12, but it would never happen on account of his mentaliy. The same thing here would spell disaster for Lennox. He must get of first.

I'm kind of sitting on the fence with this but I think that it's a coin toss. Lewis has every conceivable physical advantage but Frazier spells real trouble for him. I'm laying no money here, at a push I'd pick Lewis via mid round stoppage...but it really could be Frazier by mid round stoppage. Or an early stoppage. Or late. Or points. I think this is one of those fights where all results are possible.

[Duodenum]

My own suspicion is that Frazier's hustle and body attack takes this one by decision or late stoppage. Lewis never went 15 rounds, and was lacking the aroused mentality necessary to perform well for a sustained period against Frazier. Lennox couldn't take out an over-the-hill Holyfield, who was able to physically bull Lewis around the ring a bit. Joe's bobbing and weaving would allow him to get under much of Lewis's attack. Could go very differently also.

[McGrain]

Lewis never went 15 rounds, and was lacking the aroused mentality necessary to perform well for a sustained period against Frazier.

Yeah, I agree with that. Thing is that might save Lewis - if he can realise it he might aim for an early ish KO, in which case he might get it.

[janitor]

I think this could be verry interesting to be honest.

Forgett the Foreman fight. Lewis would try to use the same strategy that he used against David Tua, jab jab. The difference is that Frazier force the action more agresively and would have the upper body mobility to consistently make the jab miss. He would also not go into the fight headhunting but would play a more far sighted game.

[Raggamuffin]

Lewis by KO within 5 rounds. Even the FOTC Frazier got hit a LOT during the first 5 rounds when he "warmed up". Against Ali he could afford that but Ali does not have the concussive force on his punches needed to stop Frazier. Lewis did, just like Foreman. He tear Frazier up from the outside with straight right hands and uppercuts on the inside, after which he'd tie Frazier up to neutralise him at Frazier's best range.

Ali maybe didn't punch as hard as Lewis but much more frequent.
Lewis also tee's up with the uppercut but mostly when he can have his other hand on the head of the opponent. Frazier is a bit to elusive coming in to be hit with one punch at a time. Anf if he doesn't has his hip protector up to his chin, Frazier will make him urinate blood
Frazier bij UD or late round stoppage

[Dostoevsky]

Ali hit Frazier with loads of punches in that fight,Infact Frazier got hit with loads of punches in all his fights,if he gets hit with lots of punches by Lewis who arguably hits as hard as Foreman (or very close) then Frazier is going to sleep.

Frazier bulled Ali around the ring in that fight but i don't see how a 205 man could push around the 250 Lewis.
It would resemble the Foreman fight i believe,Lewis is just too skilled.

[FlatNose]

Lennox Lewis against the Frazier who beat Ali? Frazier pummels him.Other than Holyfield , and an old Tyson, Lennox Lewis stood tall over a pretty mediocre bunch compared to what Joe had to slog through to get to the top.This isn't meant to put down Lennox, but his chin let him down too many times to be considered competitive against an All Time Great like Frazier.

[Luigi1985]

Tua was a bad example to come with, David was/is pretty one-dimensional and computable, I don´t know how Lewis would get along with Frazier´s intensive pace and hard attacks. IMO Frazier would wear Lewis down in the midrounds, some here wrote that the 205 lbs. Frazier couldn´t beat the 240 lbs. man Lewis, wrong, look for example at the Mercer fight (Ray weighed ca. 235 lbs, but he was a bit fat and not in good shape, in shape he weighed 215 lbs), although not in top shape he made a close fight with Lewis and outjabbed him. Don´t overact always with the weight.


Frazier TKO 8 Lewis

[Sonny's jab]

I must admit the Mercer fight is the one I think of when I imagine Lewis in there with a tough smaller pressure fighter, a great one like Frazier.

Then again, the Tua example is not totally off, both short pressure fighters with left hooks.
But David Tua seemed to have NO CLUE WHATSOVER about cutting the ring off, that was his problem his entire career, he even made Hasim Rahman look like an expert stick-and-mover once, and that is why he now struggles to even catch up with low-level journeymen.

Lennox Lewis can conceivably TKO almost anyone, and Frazier could be dropped.
But I think prime for prime, over 15 rounds, Frazier would survive any heavy hitting and wear Lewis down. There might be a lot of jab-grabbing in this one from Lewis.

[McGrain]

. Don´t overact always with the weight.


Frazier TKO 8 Lewis


A reasonable shout.

Do you see something different if Lewis comes out very aggressively? I feel if he is aggressive he has a very good chance of getting something like TKO 8 himself, no?

[Luigi1985]

A reasonable shout.

Do you see something different if Lewis comes out very aggressively? I feel if he is aggressive he has a very good chance of getting something like TKO 8 himself, no?


Yes, if Lewis would fight aggressive and offensive, he could put on a Foreman against Frazier. But the opposite could also be, that´s why I think Lewis would be intelligent enough to constitute his boxing skills, here he would have better chances IMO...

[Denny Cruser]

I think this could be verry interesting to be honest.

Forgett the Foreman fight. Lewis would try to use the same strategy that he used against David Tua, jab jab.

Why do you think so? Frazier didnt has one punch power, and didnt has chin and physical power of David. So WHY Lewis would play in jabbing? I think Lewis going to kill little Joe. IMHO.

[Luigi1985]

Why do you think so? Frazier didnt has one punch power, and didnt has chin and physical power of David. So WHY Lewis would play in jabbing? I think Lewis going to kill little Joe. IMHO.



:tired

[Denny Cruser]

Lewis also tee's up with the uppercut but mostly when he can have his other hand on the head of the opponent.
Could you list such cases. Excluding Grant fight?

[McGrain]

Why do you think so? Frazier didnt has one punch power, and didnt has chin and physical power of David. So WHY Lewis would play in jabbing? I think Lewis going to kill little Joe. IMHO.


I think Frazier has a pretty hellish left hook, hard enough to cause most fighters serious discomfort if it lands flush. If you look at the way the Lewis came out v Tyson - nervously, talking his time, waring his man down - and compare it to the way he met Grant - in the middle of the ring with his biggest shots - which way is he most likely to fight v Frazier? I would submit that peak Frazier is far more dangerous than the Tyson Lewis faced and there is every possibility that Lewis would indeed approach this one nervously and cautiosly. I think that could get him beat.

[Raggamuffin]

Could you list such cases. Excluding Grant fight?
I saw him try it against Bruno and Briggs but the real case was indeed against Grant.
I stand corrected !! i was a bit premature

[Sonny's jab]

Frazier had as much "one punch power" as Hasim Rahman, IMO.

Also, I think Frazier was every bit as powerful as Ray Mercer, and as strong, and as good at boxing, but far better conditioned.
I think Frazier might prove real trouble for Lennox Lewis.

[Denny Cruser]

I think Frazier has a pretty hellish left hook, hard enough to cause most fighters serious discomfort if it lands flush.
Ok, there is HUGE difference between DISCOMFORT and REAL KO. ;) Frazier uses his left-hook as machinegun. Landing more and more till accumulate its necessary. How could he land repeatedly if Lewis never was left-hookers victim. How could he take his disctance? He would trap to clinch or to uppercuts combination. IMO.
[QUOTE=McGrain]
If you look at the way the Lewis came out v Tyson - nervously

Yeah Lewis relaxed only after landing those bombs. So what? It was his LEGACY fight. I think Tyson was significantly more nervous at that time.

I would submit that peak Frazier is far more dangerous than the Tyson Lewis faced and there is every possibility that Lewis would indeed approach this one nervously and cautiosly. I think that could get him beat.
Problem of Frazier at that night that he will repeatedly catch Lewis` bombs, KO bombs, and Lewis not Bonavena ;) Why he would catch Lewis` bombs? Because Joe coming low while Lewis posess terrific uppercut. Frazier easely was catched by SLOW Foreman uppercuts. Lewis will grab, push and hit. As he did against Tyson. And significantly less strong Joe will be KOd. He is too small and made for Lewis, Foreman, Liston etc.

[McGrain]

I saw him try it against Bruno and Briggs but the real case was indeed against Grant.
I stand corrected !! i was a bit premature

It was mostly heel of hand in face against Bruno rather than holding. It was pretty horrible though, those were monster shots.

[Sonny's jab]

It was mostly heel of hand in face against Bruno rather than holding. It was pretty horrible though, those were monster shots.

Frank Bruno was the king of holding-and-hitting though.

Lewis was a dirty fighter, no question about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he wail away on Razor Ruddock when Ruddock was down ? :lol:

The last time I watched it, on the second KD I'm sure Lewis was hitting Razor when Razor was on his knee.
Lewis was a bit raw in those days. He got a bit more sophisticated in his illegal moves.
I think his gives Tyson and Holyfield a run for their money in the foul department. Tyson probably takes the crown though.

[McGrain]

Ok, there is HUGE difference between DISCOMFORT and REAL KO. ;) Frazier uses his left-hook as machinegun. Landing more and more till accumulate its necessary.

OK, i think you may be underestamating the Frazier hook a bit - having said that I don't neccesarily disagree with what you're saying. But what about Lewis? How nervous is he going to be about the hook? A lot of BS has been spoken about Lewis' chin - i know some pretty knowledgable guys who call it "glass" which is nonsense - but he does probably have the weakest chin of the very elite heavyweights. IMO Frazier's hook may make Lewis reticint enough that Frazier can make the running in the fight. It is the intabgible for the this one I think. As I said earlier i'd pick Lewis at a push, but I wouldn't be laying any monery.


Yeah Lewis relaxed only after landing those bombs. So what? It was his LEGACY fight. I think Tyson was significantly more nervous at that time.

Yeah, I quite agree with you. I only use the Tyson fight as an example of what may occur in the Frazier fight.

[Denny Cruser]

Frazier had as much "one punch power" as Hasim Rahman, IMO.

Okay man, I respect your opinion, but I think you are wrong. Hasim Rahman significantly bigger and stronger than Joe Frazier and he KOed big guys with one punch, while Frazier KOed small gyus with a number of punches. That is the difference. ;)

Also, I think Frazier was every bit as powerful as Ray Mercer, and as strong, and as good at boxing, but far better conditioned.
I think Frazier might prove real trouble for Lennox Lewis.
If you boxed, you must know, that styles make fights, and in this department Mercer and Frazier are completely different boxers. Completely.

[Sonny's jab]

Okay man, I respect your opinion, but I think you are wrong. Hasim Rahman significantly bigger and stronger than Joe Frazier and he KOed big guys with one punch, while Frazier KOed small gyus with a number of punches. That is the difference. ;)


Sorry, I probably haven't seen enough of Hasim Rahman's fights.
I know he's bigger and stronger than Frazier, but I didn't know he had a reputation for one-punch power.
I know he KO'd Lennox Lewis with one punch, but I cant think of the others.


If you boxed, you must know, that styles make fights, and in this department Mercer and Frazier are completely different boxers. Completely.


Yes, that's a fair comment.
Joe Frazier is also completely different to anyone Lewis fought, and Lewis is completely different to anyone Frazier fought.

So I think we dont really have a clue how they would fight against each other. It's always fun guessing though.

:good

[Executioner]

I think Lewis would kill Frazier with right uppercuts like Foreman did. Lewis TKO4

[mr. magoo]

I would submit that peak Frazier is far more dangerous than the Tyson Lewis faced and there is every possibility that Lewis would indeed approach this one nervously and cautiosly. I think that could get him beat.


I understand what you're saying, but as much as Tyson was past his prime at 36, so was Lennox Lewis at 37. If we're going to make comparisons between all time greats, we have to look at when both men were in their primes. I'd take a 1971 Frazier who beat Ali vs maybe a 1992 Lennox Lewis who dusted Ruddock. If I had to pick a winner, I'd go with Lewis by mid round TKO. Lewis wouldn't under estimate Frazier the way he did Mccall and Rahman. He generally boxed pretty well against fighters with a crouching puncher's style. Look at the the Tua, Morrison, and Tyson fights. Although all these guys had varying methodologies, they probably had more similarities than people realize. Lewis, typically destroyed these types of fighters....

[Sonny's jab]

I understand what you're saying, but as much as Tyson was past his prime at 36, so was Lennox Lewis at 37. If we're going to make comparisons between all time greats, we have to look at when both men were in their primes. I'd take a 1971 Frazier who beat Ali vs maybe a 1992 Lennox Lewis who dusted Ruddock.

I think Lennox Lewis was better in 1995 and '96, against Morrison and Mercer.
He improved in lots of areas. He was still too raw when he fought Ruddock, IMO.
Against Morrison was possibly his best performance ever. He was 30 at the time I think.

[Jack]

Lewis wouldn't stop Frazier early. He was a puncher who had most power at range. With Frazier coming onto the inside, bobbing real low, Lewis would not be able to get his trademark punches off. In some cases, height is a big disadvantage, and this is one. Against fighters who stand upright, the man with the better reach and jab has a massive advantage, but with Frazier, Lewis would be forced to throw punches he didn't do.

I'm not sayign Lewis couldn't stop him, but he would have to change his style. Personally, I think instead of going for the KO, he'd land weak jabs all night.

Also, would he get close knowing how good of a body puncher Frazier was? I don't know.

He has two choices in this fight. Risk going for the KO, and fighting the way Frazier wants or opting to take it easy and land jab after jab. The latter, knowing Lewis, is far more likely.

I think Frazier would outpoint him.

[Vantage_West]

Lewis by KO. Frazier is too small, his skills are a class below Lewis', he doesn't have solid enough chin to last the distance and doesn't have enough punching power to hope for a lucky punch.
fraziers size was his advantage he was just underneath most of his opponants shoulder line...this means the jab is not the right ieght to get the full force and snap. he would get right under that long reach he could get very low and his hands were alwasy busy movingacross his face an body to parry the odd punch.

and his skills were not a class below he had too small enough reach to outbox his man. he didnt have a jab as we call it...anyways lennox won the rounds with his technical abilty to tie up and jab hit hard and his inside work.

frazier has to get inside right up close and bang the body people forget how dangerous frazier was he was very fast of hand had awsome power in both hands though his left hook was his money punch.

and his chin was not weak he was hit hard by the hardest hitters in the division for 10 years.when he fought foreman foreman did exactly what he had to do make it a street fight , push his man away and drop all the big uppercuts and hooks. dont let him come close just be the bigger man and drive him away.

frazier was easily cuaght on the outside because his reach and his defence was a purely inside working look at the ali-frazier II fight ali went on the outside and stayed well away and hugged him when he was punching. the reason why he was so hard to clinch is becuase his hands were very close to him they wernt easily grabed.


anyways i see frazier losing this by ud maybe lennox could land som big right hands but they would be in positions were frazier isnt squared with him.

a close fight but lennox man handles him pushes him away makes his bigger ,stronger build pay a price on joe's smaller though faster frame.

in the later rounds i feel frazier would of got a good flow and won the later rounds but the first 6,7,8 are all lewis's rounds

[Vantage_West]

Lewis wouldn't stop Frazier early. He was a puncher who had most power at range. With Frazier coming onto the inside, bobbing real low, Lewis would not be able to get his trademark punches off. In some cases, height is a big disadvantage, and this is one. Against fighters who stand upright, the man with the better reach and jab has a massive advantage, but with Frazier, Lewis would be forced to throw punches he didn't do.

I'm not sayign Lewis couldn't stop him, but he would have to change his style. Personally, I think instead of going for the KO, he'd land weak jabs all night.

Also, would he get close knowing how good of a body puncher Frazier was? I don't know.

He has two choices in this fight. Risk going for the KO, and fighting the way Frazier wants or opting to take it easy and land jab after jab. The latter, knowing Lewis, is far more likely.

I think Frazier would outpoint him.perfick description

[Butterfly^Soul]

Frazier on points,or a late stoppage...

[ChrisPontius]

Frank Bruno was the king of holding-and-hitting though.

Lewis was a dirty fighter, no question about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he wail away on Razor Ruddock when Ruddock was down ? :lol:

The last time I watched it, on the second KD I'm sure Lewis was hitting Razor when Razor was on his knee.
Lewis was a bit raw in those days. He got a bit more sophisticated in his illegal moves.
I think his gives Tyson and Holyfield a run for their money in the foul department. Tyson probably takes the crown though.
Lewis was dirty for sure. The last month i've been compiling his best punches into one video and the common factor in quite some fights has been holding and hitting. The Grant fight indeed illustrates this best. He did land a punch or two when Ruddock was down but i think that was the only time it happened. The only other occasian i can think of was against Tyson, although he might have done that knowing that you have to stand up to Tyson.
Every fighter has his dirty move: Frazier hit low (the hips), Ali held behind the head, Holyfield headbutts, Lewis has his holding and hitting and Tyson, well Tyson did it it all :lol:

[True Writer]

This match up is a joke - right?

I really don't know how anybody that knows anything about boxing could give Fraizer a sniff of a chance against Lewis. Lewis would KO him just like Forman did - except worse.

[Sonny's jab]

Lewis was dirty for sure. The last month i've been compiling his best punches into one video and the common factor in quite some fights has been holding and hitting. The Grant fight indeed illustrates this best. He did land a punch or two when Ruddock was down but i think that was the only time it happened. The only other occasian i can think of was against Tyson, although he might have done that knowing that you have to stand up to Tyson.
Every fighter has his dirty move: Frazier hit low (the hips), Ali held behind the head, Holyfield headbutts, Lewis has his holding and hitting and Tyson, well Tyson did it it all :lol:

Yeah, most of the great heavyweights were dirty fighters.
It's no tea party in there.

:good

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Sonny's jab]I think Lennox Lewis was better in 1995 and '96, against Morrison and Mercer.


In that case, Lewis wasn't much to speak of as a fighter, based on your logic. Mercer was 34 years old, and had not won a fight in nearly 3 years. Holmes and Holyfield both defeated a better version of Mercer, while Lewis nearly lost to a shot one. If this was the best that we ever saw of Lewis ( and I don't really think that it was, ) then you can't make a valid argument for his being an all time great.

[Senya13]

fraziers size was his advantage he was just underneath most of his opponants shoulder line...
Lewis was bigger and thus was much stronger than Frazier. He was just as strong as young Foreman was, he'd push Frazier where he wants him to be without much trouble.

he would get right under that long reach he could get very low and his hands were alwasy busy movingacross his face an body to parry the odd punch.
Ali landed a lot of clean punches and so did Foreman. Don't even try to persuade me Frazier was a master of defense.

and his skills were not a class below
He was predictable and rather primitive in his style. It could be effective, but his defense, offense, and variety of the ways he could fight, are considerably worse than Lewis'. He was a class below as a fighter.

frazier has to get inside right up close and bang the body people forget how dangerous frazier was he was very fast of hand had awsome power in both hands though his left hook was his money punch.
Watch the fights vs Foreman. Lennox would push him away if he got too close and meet him with a mix of hooks and uppercuts, and he was a harder hitter than Foreman (due to having better handspeed and accuracy).

and his chin was not weak he was hit hard by the hardest hitters in the division for 10 years.
He could be stunned rather easily, by single punches being caught when he's attempting to come inside. And Lennox was a very good finisher when he was at his best.

when he fought foreman foreman did exactly what he had to do make it a street fight , push his man away and drop all the big uppercuts and hooks. dont let him come close just be the bigger man and drive him away.
That's exactly how Lewis is going to stop Frazier withing the first several rounds.

in the later rounds i feel frazier would of got a good flow and won the later rounds but the first 6,7,8 are all lewis's rounds
Even if Frazier managed to survive the first several rounds (which is very unlikely), there's nothing that suggests he had the stamina to turn up the heat later in the fight. He was weary and slower in later rounds, and easier to hit.

[rekcutnevets]

Lewis is around 2 inches taller than Ali. He is also heavier. One thing that Ali did not do much of against Frazier, was put his forearms on his shoulders. If you rest your forearms, and lean onto a shorter fighter, you take a lot of steam off their punches. The shorter fighter has to move your weight to punch. You can watch Holyfield do it to Tyson. You can even see Ruddock do it against Tyson. You don't see Ali do it that much against Frazier. I think that Lewis would lean on Frazier on he inside, and his height and jab would give Joe problems from the outside.

I rank Frazier one spot ahead of Lewis all time, but I don't think he gets him head to head. I may even switch them on my list now that I've evaluated this fight.

Lewis ko Frazier rnd 8.

[C. M. Clay II]

Both men come out at a steady pace, but by round 6, Frazier turns it up. He gets inside and lands crisp bodyshots. Then around the ninth round, he concentrates on left hooks to the jaw. By the eleventh round Lewis is wasted, and his chin won't hold up. Frazier stops him late.

Joe Frazier TKO 12 Lennox Lewis:good

[groove]

Senya, Frazier only lost to 2 fighters. To say Frazier is a class below Lewis is fucking shite. Frazier in his prime was easily as good (better IMO) than the Holyfield Lewis fought. Lewis is going up in class to fight a prime Frazier.

[Senya13]

Because those 2 fighters are a step or two above than anyone else Frazier faced. Take out Ali and Foreman, and Frazier's resume is meaningless. Holyfield (of Lewis' fights) was a more versatile, experienced and skilled fighter than any version of Frazier.

[mr. magoo]

Take out Ali and Foreman, and Frazier's resume is meaningless.

Meaningless????? [Only registered and activated users can see links] are you talking about!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Definately a way to lose credibility with that statement. Frazier defeated many good fighters, Ali, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Foster, Mathis, Bugner, Chuvalo, Machen. Joe had probably 8 or 9 solid title defenses. He was also an olympic gold medalist in his amateur days. Besides, just because two of the greatest fighters in history defeated him, doesn't automatically equate to Lewis taking his head off. Foreman was nothing like Lewis. George liked to get on top of fighters like Frazier and overwhelm them with uppercuts and crosses. Lewis preffered to jab, and take guys apart from a distance, which is the type of style that Joe gave hell to guys who utilized it.

You either need to touch up on your knowledge, or don't comment on fighters from eras that you know nothing about.....

[Senya13]

His next two fights after defeating Ali were especially "solid", for sure. More "solid" than the 'bum of the month club' (not my words, from one of the books about Ali, printed in 1975) Ali took after that defeat.
Sorry, but Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Chuvalo, Machen were mediocre fighters. What he had done as an amateur is totally irrelevant.

[mr. magoo]

Sorry, but Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Chuvalo, Machen were mediocre fighters.


Yeah, :lol:

And Mccall, Rahman, Golata and most of the others Lewis faced were just fantastic... LOL....

You're proabably one of the few, perhaps even the first, that I've ever heard to call some of those guys mediocre. Do you even know anything about those fighter's credentials, or are you just talking BS, because you've never seen them fight? Don't come back to me with numbers off of boxrec either, as this won't convince me that you're knowledgeable on that period.

[Senya13]

Perhaps you should read some magazines and newspapers from that time, to see how contemporary sources called them? Ah, but of course, those sports editors and journalists didn't know nothing about their credentials and never saw them fight.

[Jack]

Perhaps you should read some magazines and newspapers from that time, to see how contemporary sources called them? Ah, but of course, those sports editors and journalists didn't know nothing about their credentials and never saw them fight.I have a lot of Ring magazine from the 1970's and, just for one name, Jerry Quarry is highly rated by them. Rightly so, too. He was a very good fighter, who could have been a champion in a number of periods.

I'll have to look up the others some time, but I know for sure The Ring liked Quarry.

[Jack]

As tough and brutal as Frazier was how is he going to beat a giant like Lennox Lewis? Lewis is 6 ft. 5 inches tall and weighs 250 lbs. This is lean muscle. Smokin' Joe at his best was about 5-11, 205. Lewis is not an aggressive fighter for the most part. In this fight Frazier would be right there in front of him eating punches. Not a good idea against Lewis.


Lewis KO 4 Frazier
Lewis being a great fighter is more relevant than size in this argument. Frazier would annhilate a lot of big fighters - Lewis would stand a bigger chance because of his skills.

And the point about Lewis not being agressive is right. However, you say he knocks Frazier out in 4. How? Frazier was a constant attacker, and Lewis, like you said would be on the backfoot, punching in ways he didn't specialise in. Short punches were not what we ever really saw Lewis do, but Frazier WOULD force that.

Lewis on the backfoot + Frazier on the attack constantly = Stylistic nightmare for Lewis.

Maybe he would win like that, maybe not, but because the fight would go that way, I don't think a knockout would happen for Lewis.

[Doppleganger]

This fight can go long and Frazier can win by TKO if Lewis gets sloppy. However, the most likely outsome I see is a Lewis KO/TKO somewhere around round 4. When Lewis lets his punches go in combinations (and for my money he's the best combination HW puncher since Joe Louis) he can KO just about anyone. I don't see Frazier standing up to too many right jab/left hook/right uppercut barrages.

[Sonny's jab]

In that case, Lewis wasn't much to speak of as a fighter, based on your logic. Mercer was 34 years old, and had not won a fight in nearly 3 years. Holmes and Holyfield both defeated a better version of Mercer, while Lewis nearly lost to a shot one. If this was the best that we ever saw of Lewis ( and I don't really think that it was, ) then you can't make a valid argument for his being an all time great.

Well, I'm just saying what I see. This isn't "my logic", just an honest assessment of what I see.

The Lewis of the period around the Ruddock fight was raw in comparison. He had a wide-footed stance and lazy footwork, was often VERY scrappy in his attacks (check the Tyrell Biggs '91, Frank Bruno '93), threw some wild haymaker rights, (some were very crude), and rarely threw short, snappy punches.

The fighter who fought Morrison and Mercer had tighter footwork, threw short punches, tight combos, and body shots. Many people credit his improvement to his teaming up with Manny Steward.

Then again, others still will tell me he improved even more later on (1997 - 2000) but I'm not sure and if so then that contradicts your point that he was getting a bit old, which I thought was valid.

[Senya13]

Liking someone (and Quarry fights were good entertainment) doesn't mean they are more than mediocre boxers (skills, abilities, or achievements).

[mr. magoo]

Liking someone (and Quarry fights were good entertainment) doesn't mean they are more than mediocre boxers (skills, abilities, or achievements).

How do you figure that Jerry Quarry was mediocre? My understanding of the word mediocre, is that it typically refers to being average or insignificant. Depending on who you talk to, mediocre can also be used to describe something that's rather shitty as well. That being said, how does a guy who's in the hall of fame, and has wins over Earnie Shavers, Floyd Patterson Ron Lyle, Mac Foster and Buster Mathis, all of a sudden get the title of being average, insignificant or shitty? On the otherhand, you probably consider most of the fighters he beat mediocre to, right?

[JohnThomas1]

I like Lewis by stoppage. His size, class and power make him the fave in this one.

[mr. magoo]

Perhaps you should read some magazines and newspapers from that time, to see how contemporary sources called them? Ah, but of course, those sports editors and journalists didn't know nothing about their credentials and never saw them fight.

I've read many publications, and heard ample interviews from the time period under which these men performed. What's more, I 've seen many of their fights. While some of them may have had their critics, as do all fighters in every era, they were also very highly reguarded as being great fighters with exceptional abilty.

Do you not think that Mr. Lewis had his fair share of critics?

[Senya13]

How do you figure that Jerry Quarry was mediocre?
Looking at his fights (there are plenty of them for Quarry) and reading contemporary opinions (without history revisionism).

[robert ungurean]

Frazier is too much man for Lewis to handle.
Frazier wins on will power alon in this one.

[mr. magoo]

Looking at his fights (there are plenty of them for Quarry) and reading contemporary opinions (without history revisionism).

Which sports writers have spoken ill of Quarry that you can think of? Also, you never addressed my list of guys whom he beat. Shavers, Patterson, Lyle, Foster and Mathis were not mediocre fighters. In fact, although Jerry never won a title, he beat what was arguably better comp than a lot of lineal champions did.

I just don't see calling a guy of this description mediocre. Quarry was not only a phenominal fighter, he was quite possible the best boxer who never won a world championship.

[Senya13]

Patterson was old. Lyle was slightly better than mediocre, but nothing special. Shavers, Foster and Mathis are mediocre boxers too. I would not rank Quarry in my All-Time Top 50 heavyweights, he doesn't have the merits, nor does he have the abilities and skills to rank high.
Please, spare me of this fairy tale. Sam Langford was the best boxer ever who never won a world championship. Quarry is light years behind Langford, both accomplishment-wise and head-to-head.

[Denny Cruser]

Quarry was indeed average boxer of level of Botha, Bugner etc. He had very good chin and huge heart but thats all.

[Marciano Frazier]

Lewis by KO within 5 rounds. Even the FOTC Frazier got hit a LOT during the first 5 rounds when he "warmed up". Against Ali he could afford that but Ali does not have the concussive force on his punches needed to stop Frazier.
Frazier got hit "A LOT" in the first five rounds against Ali because he was fighting Ali. Ali may not have had great "concussive force" in his punches, but they were a heck of a lot quicker, more frequent and harder to avoid than Lewis'. Being hit frequently by Ali hardly shows that you will be by Lewis.
A peak Frazier was quicker, sharper, harder to hit, and presumably would have stood up to punishment better than the Frazier who got blasted by Foreman, a fighter who, in my opinion, hit harder, had a considerably bigger array of power punches, was busier and more aggressive, and was more durable(allowing him to fearlessly take more risks) than Lewis.

[NickHudson]

Just because Lewis is bigger than Frazier does not mean he is stronger.

I dont believe Lewis to be a harder hitter than Foreman.

Whenever did Lewis show he could land so many clean, varied power punches over the course of two rounds as Foreman did against Frazier? I dont believe Lewis has the stamina to land so many sustained blows.

It is worth pointing out Frazier was still getting up at the end of the onslaught from Foreman. The guy never gave in, he was incredibly tough. I dont think Lewis could stop him, even on his very best night.

For me, Frazier loses the first 2 rounds against Lewis but builds gradual momentum, stopping Lewis around 9 or 10. We know Lewis could be stopped, although we never saw his response to a sustained battering, because he responded so badly to stiff single shots.

The debate on Lewis' actual prime is very telling. I have often thought that (unlike other ATGs) there is no 3 year phase in his career that looks particularly great, although he certainly gets marks for overall longevity.

On the other hand, Frazier was wonderful between '68 and '71, and very good before and after that.


Lewis was bigger and thus was much stronger than Frazier. He was just as strong as young Foreman was, he'd push Frazier where he wants him to be without much trouble.


Ali landed a lot of clean punches and so did Foreman. Don't even try to persuade me Frazier was a master of defense.


He was predictable and rather primitive in his style. It could be effective, but his defense, offense, and variety of the ways he could fight, are considerably worse than Lewis'. He was a class below as a fighter.


Watch the fights vs Foreman. Lennox would push him away if he got too close and meet him with a mix of hooks and uppercuts, and he was a harder hitter than Foreman (due to having better handspeed and accuracy).


He could be stunned rather easily, by single punches being caught when he's attempting to come inside. And Lennox was a very good finisher when he was at his best.


That's exactly how Lewis is going to stop Frazier withing the first several rounds.


Even if Frazier managed to survive the first several rounds (which is very unlikely), there's nothing that suggests he had the stamina to turn up the heat later in the fight. He was weary and slower in later rounds, and easier to hit.

[Denny Cruser]

A peak Frazier was quicker, sharper, harder to hit, and presumably would have stood up to punishment better than the Frazier who got blasted by Foreman, a fighter who, in my opinion, hit harder, had a considerably bigger array of power punches, was busier and more aggressive, and was more durable(allowing him to fearlessly take more risks) than Lewis.
Frazier was easy catched and KD by Bonavena, who had 1/3 of Lewis or Foreman power. Additionally Foreman and Lewis loved the guys who coming low, cause uppercuts matter and physical advantage. So it is doesnt matter if Frazier is on peak or not, both against LL and GF.

[ChrisPontius]

Frazier got hit "A LOT" in the first five rounds against Ali because he was fighting Ali. Ali may not have had great "concussive force" in his punches, but they were a heck of a lot quicker, more frequent and harder to avoid than Lewis'. Being hit frequently by Ali hardly shows that you will be by Lewis.
A peak Frazier was quicker, sharper, harder to hit, and presumably would have stood up to punishment better than the Frazier who got blasted by Foreman, a fighter who, in my opinion, hit harder, had a considerably bigger array of power punches, was busier and more aggressive, and was more durable(allowing him to fearlessly take more risks) than Lewis.

It wasn't just Ali who hit him plenty early on. Every good fighter did.
And if Ali can land plenty then Lewis can surely land some. I'm not talking about 40 punches a round like Ali but still a lot. Lewis was no slouch either. His punching power is a few categories higher than Ali's and his uppercut was outstanding. He'd take Frazier apart with it, in my opinion. After landing some he'll tie Frazier up on the inside, not giving Frazier a chance to work in his favorite space, like Ali did in their second meeting.

I've said it before and i'll say it again: i don't think any boxer in heavyweight history that does not punch extraordinairy hard can beat Frazier over 15, including a prime Ali, Holmes, Johnson or whoever. But fact is that Frazier got nailed plenty early on and while he can take a shitload of accumulative punishment without his game being affected much, he can't take those heavyhanded powershots from Foreman and i don't think he'll take Lewis', who are much sharper and faster.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]Patterson was old.

Not really. He was 32 years old, and would continue to be a ranked contender for the next 5 years.


Lyle was slightly better than mediocre, but nothing special. Shavers, Foster and Mathis are mediocre boxers too.

As I predicted, you refuse to reverse yourself, despite being backed into a corner. Therefore, rather than admitting that Frazier's resume wasn't " meaningless," you proceeded to call guys like Quarry mediocre, and thus his opponents mediocre as well. For your information, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, and Buster Mathis were not mediocre. They were top 10 contenders, who gave some of history's best fighters trouble, and beat plenty of other good fighters themselves.



I would not rank Quarry in my All-Time Top 50 heavyweights, he doesn't have the merits, nor does he have the abilities and skills to rank high.


Spoken like a man who's never seen him in action.

Sam Langford was the best boxer ever who never won a world championship.



Actually, Sam Langford held what was known at the time, as the World's colored heavyweight title. Technically, he was a world champion by his own right. But hey, why let fact get in the way of a good retort, eh Senya?



Quarry is light years behind Langford, both accomplishment-wise and head-to-head.


Head to head? How do you know what the outcome would be between two fighters who competed 50 years apart from one another, and had no common opponents?


Please, spare me of this fairy tale.


Dude seriously, don't dig yourself in any deeper. You may know some things about boxing, but you obviously don't know it in depth. Look at some of the things you've said over the past several posts.

1. " Frazier's resume is meaningless"

2. " Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Shavers, Foster, Bugner and Lyle were all mediocre fighters."

3. " Sam Langford was the best fighter to never hold a world title" ( he actually held one.)

4. " Floyd Patterson was old when he fought Quarry"

As you can see, your knowledge of the sport needs polishing. Reading articles, watching documentaries, and listening to those who are credible is how research is done my man.

Get to work!!!!!:deal

[Senya13]

Not really. He was 32 years old, and would continue to be a ranked contender for the next 5 years.
If you knew something about Patterson's style, you'd know he was too old to be as effective anymore. His style (and Tyson's) was well-suited for a young man, similar to how swarmer is only good while he's young, after 30 he's getting worse quick.

Therefore, rather than admitting that Frazier's resume wasn't " meaningless," you proceeded to call guys like Quarry mediocre, and thus his opponents mediocre as well.
I prefer to call the things what they truly are, instead of wearing pink glasses of historical revisionism.

For your information, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, and Buster Mathis were not mediocre. They were top 10 contenders, who gave some of history's best fighters trouble, and beat plenty of other good fighters themselves.
Being a top 10 contender means absolutely nothing to me. If you actually look through ring ratings, you would see hundreds of names that are long forgotten, because they weren't good enough to achieve anything, other than short-lived top 10 ranking.
And if you looked up fight descriptions, you'd see plenty of fighters who "gave history's best fighters trouble", that means absolutely nothing either, sorry. Even the best fighters have bad matchups (such as Ali had against mediocre Norton) or bad days. We certainly have different definitions of what a "good fighter" is. The mediocrity of that heavyweight division was very well discussed in the press when that "tournament" was held.

Spoken like a man who's never seen him in action.
Spoken like a man who's seen plenty of much more skillful and clever boxers than the mediocrity of Quarry's & Co.

Actually, Sam Langford held what was known at the time, as the World's colored heavyweight title. Technically, he was a world champion by his own right. But hey, why let fact get in the way of a good retort, eh Senya?
Do you want to call every alphabet title (things like WBF, IBO, IBA, etc) world championship title too? Will do anything to cover up one's ignorance and just repeat what George Foreman said, who was well known for speaking silly things all the time. If I wanted, I could name half a hundred fighters from different weights, who never held a world champion title and still were better than Quarry.

Head to head? How do you know what the outcome would be between two fighters who competed 50 years apart from one another, and had no common opponents?
Want to start a poll, or do you have some historians you are familiar with and who we can ask their opinion about this matchup? I can offer to ask Tracy Callis of what he thinks.

1. " Frazier's resume is meaningless"
Ripped out of context.

2. " Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Shavers, Foster, Bugner and Lyle were all mediocre fighters."
Distorted quote. Why don't you repeat what I said exactly?

3. " Sam Langford was the best fighter to never hold a world title" ( he actually held one.)
That was never a real title to most historians. There was only one true world champion back then.

4. " Floyd Patterson was old when he fought Quarry"
Ignorance of styles specifics.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]If you knew something about Patterson's style, you'd know he was too old to be as effective anymore. His style (and Tyson's) was well-suited for a young man, similar to how swarmer is only good while he's young, after 30 he's getting worse quick.

Your intitial statement was that he was " old ". 32 is not old for most heavyweights, and while I'll agree that he was past his prime, he wasn't washed up either.




I prefer to call the things what they truly are, instead of wearing pink glasses of historical revisionism.


Oh boy,
given your chronic habit of making judgments based on things that you've never seen, I seriously question your ability to dicern things for " what they truly are." Revisionism seems to be your area of expertise my good man.


If you actually look through ring ratings, you would see hundreds of names that are long forgotten, because they weren't good enough to achieve anything, other than short-lived top 10 ranking.


Forgotten? LOL...
Is this how you'd describe the historical careers of say, Earnie Shavers who most, including Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes feel was one of the hardest punchers in history? How about George Chuvalo, who numerous experts have credited as having one of the most durable chins? Ron Lyle, who beat half a dozen rated contenders, and had Foreman on the deck twice? In an earlier post, you made indirect and uncited references to what you say people thought of these men at the time. The same works both ways.


And if you looked up fight descriptions, you'd see plenty of fighters who "gave history's best fighters trouble", that means absolutely nothing either, sorry. Even the best fighters have bad matchups (such as Ali had against mediocre Norton) or bad days.

This doesn't even require my tearing it apart. It speaks for itself.

We certainly have different definitions of what a "good fighter" is.

I have yet to hear yours. The only thing that you've done thus far is called fighters mediocre, whom you've never seen, and then preceded to try and back up your argument by giving heresay references to what some "experts" supposedly said at one point. As I mentioned before, every great athlete had his critics. There are far more experts and historians who will say that Frazier, Quarry, Shavers, Ellis, Lyle, Patterson, Foster, and numerous others of that era, were good fighters, then those who will berate them.


The mediocrity of that heavyweight division was very well discussed in the press when that "tournament" was held.


Most press figures and boxing experts don't consider the 60's and 70's as a mediocre period in the heavyweight division.


Spoken like a man who's seen plenty of much more skillful and clever boxers than the mediocrity of Quarry's & Co.


So just because there are better fighters who existed in the sport, that automatically reduces a good fighter to mediocrity?

Do you want to call every alphabet title (things like WBF, IBO, IBA, etc) world championship title too?

There's an enormous differences between an era where only two titles existed, which were broken apart by racial barriers, and an era where 5 or 6 belts are presented as world titles, and can be held by any man no matter what his description is. While some historians may have questioned Langford's legitimacy as a world champ with his colored title, there were also many who viewed him as the one true champ. Jerry Quarry didn't have a separate fragment that he could steak claim to. He had to fight during the golden age of heavyweights, and frankly I think he did pretty damn good by himself.


Will do anything to cover up one's ignorance and just repeat what George Foreman said, who was well known for speaking silly things all the time.

Foreman was also a well respected commentator, minister and public figure for quite sometime. Of course, I keep forgetting that your opinion differs drastically from the norm of society. Must be a higher level of intellect that the rest of the human race is void of.


If I wanted, I could name half a hundred fighters from different weights, who never held a world champion title and still were better than Quarry.


From different weight classes? When last I looked, we were discussing the heayweight division, and one period of heavyweights in particular. You must be getting desperate to start pulling this shit.



Ripped out of context.


No it wasn't. You specifically said that once you take Ali and Foreman out of the picture, Frazier's resume is meaningless. If you can't remember something that you said 12 hours ago, then just click on the right page number and refresh your own memory. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time quoting you, given that it's much like trying to fix a broken record.


That was never a real title to most historians. There was only one true world champion back then.


Really? Do think that this was what many of Langford's African American Peers felt?

Debates are won and lost. Get back to researching, and perhaps you'll have better luck next time my man. :good

[Senya13]

Your intitial statement was that he was " old ". 32 is not old for most heavyweights, and while I'll agree that he was past his prime, he wasn't washed up either.
We ain't speaking about "most" heavyweights, we are speaking about Patterson in particular. Floyd was old and has lost a lot of effectiveness of his style due to age and injuries. A win over that Patterson means A LOT less than a win over younger healthy one (such as Liston's two wins over him, or even Johansson's).

Revisionism seems to be your area of expertise my good man.
I already gave here a list of "worst heavyweight champions" from the Ring dated May 1981, which is more or less contemporary source.
John Tate (WBA, 1979-80) 19.5
Primo Carnera (1933-34) 14
Marvin Hart (1905-06) 8
Leon Spinks (1978) 8
Ken Norton (WBC, 1978) 4
Ingemar Johansson (1959-60) 3.5
Jimmy Ellis (WBA, 1968-70) 2
Ernie Terrell (WBA, 1965-67) 1
Jess Willard (1915-19) 1

It's only when the Ali histeria reached it's top that those mediocrities started to get praised as very good or even great fighters.

Earnie Shavers who most, including Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes feel was one of the hardest punchers in history?
David Tua was an even harder puncher than Shavers, and with better defense, chin and stamina, and unlike Shavers, actually has some good wins. Does anybody here claim he is more than mediocre contender?

How about George Chuvalo, who numerous experts have credited as having one of the most durable chins?
Oliver McCall has a more solid chin than Chuvalo, and better skills, does anybody here claims he's more than an accidental champion and a mediocre contender the rest of the time?

Ron Lyle, who beat half a dozen rated contenders, and had Foreman on the deck twice?
John Ruiz beat plenty of rated contenders and titlists, and had Holyfield on the deck in the 2nd fight. Does he get any praise here, even though he was a better and much more successful heavyweight than Lyle?

This doesn't even require my tearing it apart. It speaks for itself.
See above "rankings".

Most press figures and boxing experts don't consider the 60's and 70's as a mediocre period in the heavyweight division.
Teddy Brenner, tha matchmaker at Madison Square Garden:
"The W.B.A. elimination tournament was a total success. It eliminated all eight fighters."
It's funny when people claim the win over Ellis, for example, was good, when Frazier was 4-to-1 favorite to the winner of the "tournament" and rightfully so, as it was a useless mismatch.

So just because there are better fighters who existed in the sport, that automatically reduces a good fighter to mediocrity?
When you have certain quantity of better fighters than the one you are comparing them to, that fighter becomes a mediocrity.

While some historians may have questioned Langford's legitimacy as a world champ with his colored title, there were also many who viewed him as the one true champ.
Such as? Which of them considered Jack Johnson a false champ, and Langford the true one?

He had to fight during the golden age of heavyweights, and frankly I think he did pretty damn good by himself.
The most over-rated heavyweight epoch would be a better name. And Quarry didn't achieve anything much in it.

Foreman was also a well respected commentator, minister and public figure for quite sometime.
That's why he's an object of jokes everywhere for his work as a commentator? Compared to many other former or active boxers who tried this role, Foreman sounds stupid a lot of time with his comments.

From different weight classes? When last I looked, we were discussing the heayweight division, and one period of heavyweights in particular. You must be getting desperate to start pulling this shit.
Let's see, who's trying to cover up his mistakes here. From a previous post today:
Quarry was not only a phenominal fighter, he was quite possible the best boxer who never won a world championship.
Anybody sees word 'heavyweight' here?

No it wasn't. You specifically said that once you take Ali and Foreman out of the picture, Frazier's resume is meaningless.
Do you understand the difference between conditional sentences and simple sentences?
"If B, then A" and "Is A".

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]We ain't speaking about "most" heavyweights, we are speaking about Patterson in particular. Floyd was old and has lost a lot of effectiveness of his style due to age and injuries.

He still continued to fight for another 5 years and stayed ranked.

A win over that Patterson means A LOT less than a win over younger healthy one (such as Liston's two wins over him, or even Johansson's).

No shit, really??? Gee how many old fighters did Lennox Lewis beat up on? Does this make him mediocre, or do you just throw around that term where it suits you?



I already gave here a list of "worst heavyweight champions" from the Ring dated May 1981, which is more or less contemporary source.
John Tate (WBA, 1979-80) 19.5
Primo Carnera (1933-34) 14
Marvin Hart (1905-06) 8
Leon Spinks (1978) 8
Ken Norton (WBC, 1978) 4
Ingemar Johansson (1959-60) 3.5
Jimmy Ellis (WBA, 1968-70) 2
Ernie Terrell (WBA, 1965-67) 1
Jess Willard (1915-19) 1

It's only when the Ali histeria reached it's top that those mediocrities started to get praised as very good or even great fighters.


Norton was awarded the WBC title AFTER Ali retired. He was already reguarded as a great fighter long before that point. Besides, to be the succesor of Muhammad Ali, and the predecessor of Larry Holmes, both of whom he gave hell to, well frankly I think that's a hell of a place in history to hold.


David Tua was an even harder puncher than Shavers, and with better defense, chin and stamina, and unlike Shavers, actually has some good wins. Does anybody here claim he is more than mediocre contender?


David Tua was a very good fighter who fought in a weaker era than Shavers. No, I don't consider him to be mediocre. As for him being a better fighter, I'll agree he had a better chin and more polished skills. Power, however I disagree with,as would most.


Oliver McCall has a more solid chin than Chuvalo, and better skills, does anybody here claims he's more than an accidental champion and a mediocre contender the rest of the time?


Yet, he beat your man Lewis, and by the way, it was no accident.

John Ruiz beat plenty of rated contenders and titlists, and had Holyfield on the deck in the 2nd fight. Does he get any praise here, even though he was a better and much more successful heavyweight than Lyle

You've run into a wall here. First of all there's no fuckin way John Ruiz was better, or more successful than Ron Lyle. Secondly, Holyfiled was shot to pieces when those two met. Third he does not desrve the kind of praise you're talking about.






When you have certain quantity of better fighters than the one you are comparing them to, that fighter becomes a mediocrity.


In your opinion, which isn't very well supported. All you've done from the start is thrown around words like mediocre, with no substantiation as to why, except meaningless assumptions, and heresay comments from experts, who's testimonies you have yet to reveal. You called Joe Frazier's resume meaningless. I listed his opponents, and you preceeded to call them mediocre. I tried to show you some of their credentials and opposition as well, and again you threw out mediocre. It's clear to me, that you're a biased fight fan who has limited knowledge of certain periods in the sport, and who so stubbornly refuses to admit when he's wrong for the purpose of appearing consistant. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but if you're going to use judgement words like: Great, good, bad, mediocre, talented, or whatever, you need to support your claims with facts. Truthfully, Idon't know too many people in the 20 years that I've followed the sport, who have steadfastly claimed that Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Oscar Bonavena and Joe Bugner were mediocre. While it's true that some of them were not exactly " great " per say, they were certainly well above average for their time as well as in the grand scheme of heavyweight history. Also keep in mind, that these men were not just considered good because of their encounters with Muhammad Ali ( another common and falacious claim of yours) They were well known and respected for having many credentials and acheivemnts of their own, and for participating in what is known as one of the greatest periods in the sport's history.

Good day sir...

[Senya13]

Yeah, they are particularly good at avoiding giving any actual evidence, other than general words and personal accusations, and the refusal to admit own mistakes.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]Yeah, they are particularly good at avoiding giving any actual evidence,

What evidence do I need to provide? You're the one using words like mediocre and failing to provide anything to back it, except your own biased views, which most people disagree with.


other than general words and personal accusations, and the refusal to admit own mistakes.



There have been no mistakes made on my part, nor personal attacks.......That's a bunch of nonsense........

Touch up on your boxing knowledge. You have a lot to learn my friend.

[hobgoblin]

Lennox Lewis is a great fighter. He didn't have an iron chin but it was reliable. Having said that, I pick Frazier to win via KO. Frazier is just too good, too busy, and too relentless. I'll edit this and elaborate more on it later. I just see Frazier getting past Lewis' jab, smashing the body repeatedly to wear Lewis, and then in the later rounds he starts nailing him. One advantage to Lewis is that he was a smart fighter and he knew that Joe Frazier was only 1.5 handed as he was blind on one eye.

[round15]

PRE FOTC Joe Frazier(1966-1969) would KO Lennox Lewis inside 7 rounds. This version of Frazier probably gets knocked down early in the fight, but Lewis wouldn't have been able to handle this Fraziers' pressure, head movement, and body attack. Joe was probably at his absolute best and would give every heavweight in history a very tough fight.

FOTC Joe Frazier(1971) would probably KO Lewis inside 10 rounds. This version of Frazier who fought Ali was near his best, but his vision and blood pressure problems were starting to become an issue. The man was apparently holding out of cataract surgery so he could fight. Lennox is no Ali and if Frazier doesn't knock him out, Frazier wins via unanimous decision.

Kingston Jamaica Joe Frazier(1973) would get KO'ed by Lennox probably in 7rounds or less, kinda like his fight against Tyson. Lewis wouldn't destroy this version of Frazier the same way Foreman did because he lacks the ferocity. Still, this is probably the most beatable version of Frazier for most heavyweights. Frazier was far off his prime weight, out of shape and was considerably slower and weaker, especially vs Foreman.

Manilla Frazier(1975) would probably KO Lennox late in the fight, unless Frazier gets stopped himself. Lewis had more power than Ali but significantly les mobility. He would be an easier target for Frazier to hit, but he wouldn't be as tough an opponent as Ali was in 1975.

[Holmes' Jab]

PRE FOTC Joe Frazier(1966-1969) would KO Lennox Lewis inside 7 rounds. This version of Frazier probably gets knocked down early in the fight, but Lewis wouldn't have been able to handle this Fraziers' pressure, head movement, and body attack. Joe was probably at his absolute best and would give every heavweight in history a very tough fight.

FOTC Joe Frazier(1971) would probably KO Lewis inside 10 rounds. This version of Frazier who fought Ali was near his best, but his vision and blood pressure problems were starting to become an issue. The man was apparently holding out of cataract surgery so he could fight. Lennox is no Ali and if Frazier doesn't knock him out, Frazier wins via unanimous decision.

Kingston Jamaica Joe Frazier(1973) would get KO'ed by Lennox probably in 7rounds or less, kinda like his fight against Tyson. Lewis wouldn't destroy this version of Frazier the same way Foreman did because he lacks the ferocity. Still, this is probably the most beatable version of Frazier for most heavyweights. Frazier was far off his prime weight, out of shape and was considerably slower and weaker, especially vs Foreman.

Manilla Frazier(1975) would probably KO Lennox late in the fight, unless Frazier gets stopped himself. Lewis had more power than Ali but significantly les mobility. He would be an easier target for Frazier to hit, but he wouldn't be as tough an opponent as Ali was in 1975.


I'm baffled as to why you reckon Frazier would beat Lewis "way more often than not". :huh I've nearly always been convinced this is a tough stylistic matchup for Frazier. Frazier is as durable as they come and has tremendous fighting heart, however if Lewis goes into search and destroy mode it could be Foreman all over again (ie: an early bomb out). Lewis is also well equiped to outbox Frazier providing he maintains a high punch output and snaps out that jab, if he gets lazy he'd pay for it and if he idn't manage to get Frazier out of their early it could be one helluva tussle.


It's one which conceviably go any sort of way, however I can envisage Lewis prevailing more often than not.

[NickHudson]

Your debate with Magoo here re: Lewis's prime gets to the heart of why it is so difficult assessing his resume/legacy.

When exactly was his prime? What was his best 5 year patch or sequence of victories? With Lennox these are very challenging questions.

Much more so than other consensus ATGs whose prime is easy to define.

Well, I'm just saying what I see. This isn't "my logic", just an honest assessment of what I see.

The Lewis of the period around the Ruddock fight was raw in comparison. He had a wide-footed stance and lazy footwork, was often VERY scrappy in his attacks (check the Tyrell Biggs '91, Frank Bruno '93), threw some wild haymaker rights, (some were very crude), and rarely threw short, snappy punches.

The fighter who fought Morrison and Mercer had tighter footwork, threw short punches, tight combos, and body shots. Many people credit his improvement to his teaming up with Manny Steward.

Then again, others still will tell me he improved even more later on (1997 - 2000) but I'm not sure and if so then that contradicts your point that he was getting a bit old, which I thought was valid.

[JohnThomas1]

PRE FOTC Joe Frazier(1966-1969) would KO Lennox Lewis inside 7 rounds. This version of Frazier probably gets knocked down early in the fight, but Lewis wouldn't have been able to handle this Fraziers' pressure, head movement, and body attack. Joe was probably at his absolute best and would give every heavweight in history a very tough fight.

FOTC Joe Frazier(1971) would probably KO Lewis inside 10 rounds. This version of Frazier who fought Ali was near his best, but his vision and blood pressure problems were starting to become an issue. The man was apparently holding out of cataract surgery so he could fight. Lennox is no Ali and if Frazier doesn't knock him out, Frazier wins via unanimous decision.

Kingston Jamaica Joe Frazier(1973) would get KO'ed by Lennox probably in 7rounds or less, kinda like his fight against Tyson. Lewis wouldn't destroy this version of Frazier the same way Foreman did because he lacks the ferocity. Still, this is probably the most beatable version of Frazier for most heavyweights. Frazier was far off his prime weight, out of shape and was considerably slower and weaker, especially vs Foreman.

Manilla Frazier(1975) would probably KO Lennox late in the fight, unless Frazier gets stopped himself. Lewis had more power than Ali but significantly les mobility. He would be an easier target for Frazier to hit, but he wouldn't be as tough an opponent as Ali was in 1975.

Good depth of opinion but a couple of questions stand out

1. How many fights did Frazier come off the canvas to win?

2. How many people come off the canvas against Lewis and won?

I really can't see Frazier winning if he's down at all, and i must say i think Lewis is a very big ask stylistically for Frazier. You make some comparisons to Ali, but Lewis had something Ali didn't - the power to put Joe Frazier into a deep slumber. As for Lewis not being aggressive take a look at him vs some dangerous early round fighters.

[Holmes' Jab]

As for Lewis not being aggressive take a look at him vs some dangerous early round fighters.


Exactly right. The Ruddock, Golota and Grant fights to name but a few ... :good

[Mendoza]

Lewis by KO. Frazier is too small, his skills are a class below Lewis', he doesn't have solid enough chin to last the distance and doesn't have enough punching power to hope for a lucky punch.

The right hand or the uppercut were there to land on Frazier. Lewis had all time ability in both punches. Lewis was far stronger and could control Joe in a clinch with ease. Lewis has the size, a jab that can stop a man in his tracks, and knows Fraizer only has one punch. And Frazier is going to be running into Lewis power. Yikes.

Frazier had a great hook, but that's was pretty much it. The cross, the jab, and the uppercut were not used or featured much. Lewis had no issues with Tommy Morrison. Mike Tyson's, or Tua's left hook. None. Frazier hook wasn’t as hard as these three. A tough match up for Frazier. I am surprised at how many thing Frazier would win.

I like Lewis via TKO/KO inside of six rounds.

[round15]

Good depth of opinion but a couple of questions stand out

1. How many fights did Frazier come off the canvas to win?

2. How many people come off the canvas against Lewis and won?

I really can't see Frazier winning if he's down at all, and i must say i think Lewis is a very big ask stylistically for Frazier. You make some comparisons to Ali, but Lewis had something Ali didn't - the power to put Joe Frazier into a deep slumber. As for Lewis not being aggressive take a look at him vs some dangerous early round fighters.

Nice response. However, like I said before, Lennox Lewis is no Ali and doesn't have the hand or foot speed to beat Frazier. The only version of Frazier I can see Lewis blowing out is the same one that got blown out by Foreman. Even still, Lewis doesn't have the killer instinct Foreman has which makes it hard for me to believe he would have knocked out Frazier. If Lewis, unlike Foreman lets Joe get out of the second round in 1973, Frazier probably wears him down and stops him late. Other than that, he gets knocked out late or loses a unanimous decision to the FOTC or PRE FOTC Joe Frazier. Lewis wouldn't be able to handle the head movement, pressure and relentless body attack of the early Joe Frazier. Ali missed a lot of punches in the FOTC and Frazier was known to be a difficult target to hit cleanly. Lewis is a great athelete and has one of the strongest right hands in heavyweight history, but he wouldn't be able to catch Frazier cleanly and consistently.

[Vanboxingfan]

Nice response. However, like I said before, Lennox Lewis is no Ali and doesn't have the hand or foot speed to beat Frazier. The only version of Frazier I can see Lewis blowing out is the same one that got blown out by Foreman. Even still, Lewis doesn't have the killer instinct Foreman has which makes it hard for me to believe he would have knocked out Frazier. If Lewis, unlike Foreman lets Joe get out of the second round in 1973, Frazier probably wears him down and stops him late. Other than that, he gets knocked out late or loses a unanimous decision to the FOTC or PRE FOTC Joe Frazier. Lewis wouldn't be able to handle the head movement, pressure and relentless body attack of the early Joe Frazier. Ali missed a lot of punches in the FOTC and Frazier was known to be a difficult target to hit cleanly. Lewis is a great athelete and has one of the strongest right hands in heavyweight history, but he wouldn't be able to catch Frazier cleanly and consistently.

I disagree completely. I have most of Lewis' fights on tape and while in his 30's he was slow and powerful, he was actually damn quick in his mid 20's. And if Lewis wanted to go after a fighter such as Gotola, or Ruddock..he was plenty fast of foot and hand.

The main advantage Lewis has is his size and more importantly his excellent ability to use his size to his advantage. This means using his strength, power, and reach to his best advantage.

In my opinion he would simply overpower the game Frazier in fairly short order. In my opinion the Tyson fight was a blue print of what would happen, only I think Tyson's additional 30lbs and his outstanding ability to take a punch kept him in the fight longer than it would Frazier. It's basically a stylistic nightmare for Frazier, who would be coming forward right into Lewis' power zone and would likely eat one too many uppercuts. I just don't envision Frazier getting in on the inside and unleashing left hooks on a repeatable basis. Nor have I ever seen anyone drop Lewis with a sustained body attack which some have mentioned. If Frazier did manage to get in on the inside, to the point of hurting Lewis or causing him concern, then I think he'd revert to plan B, which would be to stay on the outside and use his jab and his overhand right to keep Frazier at bay.

[Sardu]

I have the utmost respect for Smokin' Joe. Heck, a few years ago I met him at the Absecon Diner real late one saturday night. He was pretty hammered and with some heavyset redheaded broad. Really cool dude - never rebukes a fan or turns down a handshake. Still even hates Ali who he still calls "Clay." Anyway, I would have to go with LL here by kayo. Too big, too much power.

Lewis by 6th round kayo.

[NickHudson]

These are interesting questions, that possibly conceal a can of worms to me.

Frazier did come off the canvas against Bonavena. He also kept getting up against Foreman when any other fighter would have been in a hospital bed.

IF he had been knocked down by a single shot versus one of his lesser opponents he would have got up and won. Its just that he was too good for that. Surely, that shouldnt count against him.

Some more questions.

1. How many fights did Lewis come off the canvas to win.
2 How many of Lewis's career opponents could match '71 Fraziers combination of punch output, physical conditioning, and will-to-win.

And a final observation: '71 Frazier on his best night clearly had an excellent chin. Around this time Ali effectively knocked out Bonavena with a single left hook, when noone else could do anything with Bonavena.

Ali put everything into knocking Frazier out early, and with his speed, punch output and deceptiveness had some success with landing.

However, it is a key observation that Frazier not only never went down, he never appeared to be hurt at all during the contest, not even for a moment.

Good depth of opinion but a couple of questions stand out

1. How many fights did Frazier come off the canvas to win?

2. How many people come off the canvas against Lewis and won?

I really can't see Frazier winning if he's down at all, and i must say i think Lewis is a very big ask stylistically for Frazier. You make some comparisons to Ali, but Lewis had something Ali didn't - the power to put Joe Frazier into a deep slumber. As for Lewis not being aggressive take a look at him vs some dangerous early round fighters.

[round15]

I disagree completely. I have most of Lewis' fights on tape and while in his 30's he was slow and powerful, he was actually damn quick in his mid 20's. And if Lewis wanted to go after a fighter such as Gotola, or Ruddock..he was plenty fast of foot and hand.

The main advantage Lewis has is his size and more importantly his excellent ability to use his size to his advantage. This means using his strength, power, and reach to his best advantage.

In my opinion he would simply overpower the game Frazier in fairly short order. In my opinion the Tyson fight was a blue print of what would happen, only I think Tyson's additional 30lbs and his outstanding ability to take a punch kept him in the fight longer than it would Frazier. It's basically a stylistic nightmare for Frazier, who would be coming forward right into Lewis' power zone and would likely eat one too many uppercuts. I just don't envision Frazier getting in on the inside and unleashing left hooks on a repeatable basis. Nor have I ever seen anyone drop Lewis with a sustained body attack which some have mentioned. If Frazier did manage to get in on the inside, to the point of hurting Lewis or causing him concern, then I think he'd revert to plan B, which would be to stay on the outside and use his jab and his overhand right to keep Frazier at bay.

Interesting points. I remember less skilled fighters, Oliver Mcall, Frank Bruno, Shannon Briggs and Hasim Rahman, giving Lewis trouble. What's the difference between Joe Frazier giving Lewis trouble and these fighters that don't even come close to Frazier in terms of overall skill?

Watch Joe Frazier from his early career, 1966 up to the FOTC. There's never been another heavyweight that punched off the angles and moved his head more consistently than Frazier. Don't use George Foreman as an example in comparing a fight with Lennox and Frazier. Lennox would have big trouble with the late 1960's Frazier because he wouldn't be able to catch him as clean. Lennox Lewis is no Ali and he wouldn't be able to backup fast enough to keep Frazier off of him. George Foreman didn't face the same Frazier that exhibited the relentless pressure and body attack that was paramount against his earlier opponents. Frazier was actually a smarter boxer than most give him credit for and he would jab inside to counter his opponents and work the body. A lot of people are quick to conclude that Frazier was just left-hook alone and nothing else which isn't true. Quarry, Bugner, Ellis and Ali were all on the receiving ends of solid right hands that Frazier threw.

Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson should have fought much earlier and both men are responsible for not getting that fight done. That being said, Lewis' win against Tyson wasn't as impressive IMO. Tyson was way off at that point in his career, put too much weight on and showed no quickness to get inside on Lennox Lewis. Prime Joe Frazier at 204 - 207 lbs would KO Lewis inside 10 rounds with a vicious body assault.

[Mega Lamps]

Frazier most likely but it depends how the fight is fought. If Lennox tries the usual and takes his time and jabs Frazier he will most likely get stopped or lose a decision once Frazier starts smokin'. Lennox's best chance is to go right after Frazier from the opening round which isn't his usual strategy and then its a closer fight and could go either way much more likely.

[AnthonyJ74]

15 rounds, who wins?

I think I put foward this matchup very recently in the dream matchup thread, I've been thinking this one over for a while now and I still think it'd be a very intruguing fight- very close to call.

As far as Frazier is concerned the main reason some people (myself included) rank him very high up in the Top 10 is most likely because of his win against Ali in their first fight. It has to be said Frazier was the only fighter to beat Ali when he was still in his absolute prime, which counts for alot. There aren't many HW's in history who I'd favour head-to-head against a '71 Frazier- Foreman (as proved) and Liston may well have him stylistically checked, Holmes and pre-Vietman Ali- possibly?

The more I think about it, though the more I think Lewis would slot into this category. He has the boxing skills (jab), physical attributes as well as additional punching power (a notch up from Ali's) and ring strategy etc to pose Frazier with many headaches. To counter that Fraziers sheer intensity, toughness, stamina and wicked left hook could well end Lewis' night early should he not bring his total A game into the ring.

My gut instinct says Lewis could well edge a tight decision, a stoppage win for Frazier wouldn't be out of the question though.

Lewis SD15 Frazier

I don't think Joe Frazier beat a prime Muhammad Ali in 1971. Age-wise, Ali was young, but having had only two fights in about four years was clearly detrimental to Ali's skills and conditioning. The fight would have been a different story if that had been a 1967 version of Ali in the ring with Joe that night. The 1967 version of Ali would have been able to move and dance all night like the '71 version did so effectively for the first two rounds. It was a good win for Joe, but Joe Frazier didn't beat a peak Muhammad Ali.

And I think a Lennox Lewis fight would be a bad, bad matchup for Joe Frazier. A big guy like Lewis who could crack with both hands would be a tough assignment for Joe.

[Vanboxingfan]

Interesting points. I remember less skilled fighters, Oliver Mcall, Frank Bruno, Shannon Briggs and Hasim Rahman, giving Lewis trouble. What's the difference between Joe Frazier giving Lewis trouble and these fighters that don't even come close to Frazier in terms of overall skill?

Watch Joe Frazier from his early career, 1966 up to the FOTC. There's never been another heavyweight that punched off the angles and moved his head more consistently than Frazier. Don't use George Foreman as an example in comparing a fight with Lennox and Frazier. Lennox would have big trouble with the late 1960's Frazier because he wouldn't be able to catch him as clean. Lennox Lewis is no Ali and he wouldn't be able to backup fast enough to keep Frazier off of him. George Foreman didn't face the same Frazier that exhibited the relentless pressure and body attack that was paramount against his earlier opponents. Frazier was actually a smarter boxer than most give him credit for and he would jab inside to counter his opponents and work the body. A lot of people are quick to conclude that Frazier was just left-hook alone and nothing else which isn't true. Quarry, Bugner, Ellis and Ali were all on the receiving ends of solid right hands that Frazier threw.

Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson should have fought much earlier and both men are responsible for not getting that fight done. That being said, Lewis' win against Tyson wasn't as impressive IMO. Tyson was way off at that point in his career, put too much weight on and showed no quickness to get inside on Lennox Lewis. Prime Joe Frazier at 204 - 207 lbs would KO Lewis inside 10 rounds with a vicious body assault.

I disagree. I don't recall anyone causing Lewis any serious damage with a bodyshot. Nor do I recall Lewis allowing much smaller fighters to back him up, on a consistent basis. In fact I can't think of one fighter who backed Lewis up on a sustained basis, and he fought both smaller swamers and big powerful athletic fights such as Grant, Golota, Ruddock, etc. If these guys aren't backing him up, no way Frazier, with his 40lb weight disadvantage and less powerful punches is going to be the first.

And while Tyson was admittedly past his prime, it was the strategy Lewis used that leads me to believe he'd beat Frazier. It wasn't just that he one, but he also used his size by leaning on Tyson and threw upper cuts that had Tyson hurt after the first round. In fact, Lewis was roughing up Tyson to the point of getting a deduction. So this leads me to believe you won't see the passive Lewis in the ring, he'd be in seek and destroy mode.

[radianttwilight]

Can nobody here see Lewis getting KO'd early with one shot? I think Frazier punches as hard as McCall or Rahman - and certainly more often and with more accuracy.

I don't think Lewis could KO Frazier early without putting himself at a HUGE risk of getting KO'd himself. Keep in mind that the "young, aggressive, tiger-like" Lewis that was KO'ing guys left and right early in his career was the same Lewis that McCall iced.

[Jennifer Love Hewitt]

Lewis rips Fraizers head of within 4 rounds.

[Quick Cash]

I think both fighters are being sold a little short here. Lennox has a good chance of beating prime Frazier, but no one is going to repeat the demolition Foreman ripped Frazier that night in Jamaica.

Lewis' stance would serve him well. I reckon he'll be holding that right hand close to his cheek, left hand extended just like in the Tommy Morrison scrap. I don't see Lewis as a fighter terribly affected by hooks, but Frazier's is the division's best and I expect him to wobble Lewis once or twice if the fight is protracted for whatever reason.

I disagree with an earlier post suggesting that Lennox put his weight on Joe's shoulders. Lewis has many options in this fight actually. He can clinch him, rough him up inside or even shake him using his great size, but never should he rest on Frazier's shoulders. For starters, it opens him up to the body attack, and once Joe dips his upper body, Lewis will fall forward and get a left to the head for his trouble. He must protect his chin at all times if he has any desire to win the match. It wasn't quite glass as people sometimes describe, but it sure wasn't made of the same stuff as Ali.

Lewis by TKO if he can land uppercuts. He should let his jab linger and rip Joe Frazier with uppercuts.

[round15]

I don't think Joe Frazier beat a prime Muhammad Ali in 1971. Age-wise, Ali was young, but having had only two fights in about four years was clearly detrimental to Ali's skills and conditioning. The fight would have been a different story if that had been a 1967 version of Ali in the ring with Joe that night. The 1967 version of Ali would have been able to move and dance all night like the '71 version did so effectively for the first two rounds. It was a good win for Joe, but Joe Frazier didn't beat a peak Muhammad Ali.

And I think a Lennox Lewis fight would be a bad, bad matchup for Joe Frazier. A big guy like Lewis who could crack with both hands would be a tough assignment for Joe.

I'll agree with you such that Ali was slightly past his prime, but he wasn't as far off his prime as most people would suggest. I'd say Frazier was further off his prime against George Foreman as opposed to Ali being past his prime against Frazier. The 1971 Ali was a different fighter than the 1960's version but Frazier beat the closest version of Ali to his prime years.

If the whole draft issue with Ali never happened and history changed, I think the real FOTC would have happened in 1967 or 1968. Yank Durham said Frazier was ready for Ali at this time, but he knew the only way to beat him was in the ring.

It's funny how Henry Cooper in losing was given big time credit for being able to floor the 1960's "prime" version of Ali, having him seriously hurt, yet Frazier's 1971 win is discredited because Ali wasn't at his best?

Don't use Cleveland Williams as the measuring stick. That version of Williams was nowhere near the early 1960's contender he was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cleveland Williams had a serious incident being shot by a patrol officer in the stomach a year before his fight with Ali.

Fact is, 1960's Ali was faster on his feet and slightly faster as a puncher, but he hit nowhere near as hard as the early 1970's Ali. As for a fight with Frazier in the late 1960's, I'd still say Frazier would have caught him, floored him and likely would have won a unanimous decision.

Frazier KO'd Manuel Ramos with a body shot, and he was a fighter who stood 6' 3 weighing 230lbs. I can't see anything different with Lennox Lewis. Frazier would still work his way inside on Lewis, double the hooks to the body and head, and he wouldn't neglect his right hand as well. I seriously doubt that Lewis would be able to handle a prime Joe Frazier's work rate.

Frazier KO's Lewis between rounds 8 and 11, or wins via unanimous decision.

[mr. magoo]

It's funny how Henry Cooper in losing was given big time credit for being able to floor the 1960's "prime" version of Ali, having him seriously hurt, yet Frazier's 1971 win is discredited because Ali wasn't at his best?



In all fairness, this was not a prime and certainly not a peak version of Ali either. Cooper floored Ali in 1963 not in 1967. Ali was around 20 years old and had all but 18 pro fights. He did not reach his best until having the experience of beating guys like Liston, Patterson, Williams, Terrell and Foley. Its kind of like people trying to make a case that Tyson looked bad against Tillis, then comparing him to what people might have done to him later in his championship days because of it.

Big difference.

[Vanboxingfan]

Can nobody here see Lewis getting KO'd early with one shot? I think Frazier punches as hard as McCall or Rahman - and certainly more often and with more accuracy.

I don't think Lewis could KO Frazier early without putting himself at a HUGE risk of getting KO'd himself. Keep in mind that the "young, aggressive, tiger-like" Lewis that was KO'ing guys left and right early in his career was the same Lewis that McCall iced.

Not anyone who's not unbiased. Taking two of Lewis' worst fights to use as a projection of what would lilkely happen if Lewis and Frazier met is a poor way to analysis any fight. If it were that simple, then both, Rahman and McCall would have repeated these knock outs in the rematch.

Cause if Rahman did it the first time, why couldn't he simply have repeated what he did in the first fight.

Of course the answer is because every fight is different and one can't simply project one aspect of a fighters career and assume it's going to be repeated again.

Better to take into account Lewis' whole body of work when analysising these two fighters. Of course the same applies to Frazier, which is why Lewis would be unlikely to repeat what Foreman did against him in their first fight.

In addition to all that, I believe it was over hand rights that caught Lewis on both occassions, something Frazier isn't noted for.

[mr. magoo]

Not anyone who's not unbiased. Taking two of Lewis' worst fights to use as a projection of what would lilkely happen if Lewis and Frazier met is a poor way to analysis any fight. If it were that simple, then both, Rahman and McCall would have repeated these knock outs in the rematch.

Cause if Rahman did it the first time, why couldn't he simply have repeated what he did in the first fight.

Of course the answer is because every fight is different and one can't simply project one aspect of a fighters career and assume it's going to be repeated again.

Better to take into account Lewis' whole body of work when analysising these two fighters. Of course the same applies to Frazier, which is why Lewis would be unlikely to repeat what Foreman did against him in their first fight.

In addition to all that, I believe it was over hand rights that caught Lewis on both occassions, something Frazier isn't noted for.

Good post.

Frazier was known for the left hook as being by far his best weopon. Not a particularly useful tool against Lewis who never seemed to struggle with fighters who utilized it. Additionally, while I feel that size isn't everything, it does account for something, especially if the bigger man is also a very talented all time great. It's not out of the question for Joe Frazier to beat Lennox Lewis but its probably not an outcome that I would favor.

[madman101]

Id never count smoke out of any fight because he's one of if not the toughest men in heavyweight history but if the Lennox of the Ruddock fight turns up i feel he would be to much for joe, he had the size and power like foreman and although lennox showed more caution than big George when he felt threaten he came out of his shell and went to work and not many ATG'S beat that Lewis. Infact i would only pick Ali for sure to win and maybe holmes with his great jab and chin and all round boxing skills and both can nearly match lennox in the size department.

[fists of fury]

To be frank, Lewis annihilates Joe in my book, if he comes in looking for a quick night.

[Stevie G]

I'll agree with you such that Ali was slightly past his prime, but he wasn't as far off his prime as most people would suggest. I'd say Frazier was further off his prime against George Foreman as opposed to Ali being past his prime against Frazier. The 1971 Ali was a different fighter than the 1960's version but Frazier beat the closest version of Ali to his prime years.

If the whole draft issue with Ali never happened and history changed, I think the real FOTC would have happened in 1967 or 1968. Yank Durham said Frazier was ready for Ali at this time, but he knew the only way to beat him was in the ring.

It's funny how Henry Cooper in losing was given big time credit for being able to floor the 1960's "prime" version of Ali, having him seriously hurt, yet Frazier's 1971 win is discredited because Ali wasn't at his best?

Don't use Cleveland Williams as the measuring stick. That version of Williams was nowhere near the early 1960's contender he was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cleveland Williams had a serious incident being shot by a patrol officer in the stomach a year before his fight with Ali.

Fact is, 1960's Ali was faster on his feet and slightly faster as a puncher, but he hit nowhere near as hard as the early 1970's Ali. As for a fight with Frazier in the late 1960's, I'd still say Frazier would have caught him, floored him and likely would have won a unanimous decision.

Frazier KO'd Manuel Ramos with a body shot, and he was a fighter who stood 6' 3 weighing 230lbs. I can't see anything different with Lennox Lewis. Frazier would still work his way inside on Lewis, double the hooks to the body and head, and he wouldn't neglect his right hand as well. I seriously doubt that Lewis would be able to handle a prime Joe Frazier's work rate.

Frazier KO's Lewis between rounds 8 and 11, or wins via unanimous decision.

Interesting point about the Cooper and Frazier knockdowns. The Cassius Clay of 1963 was not a prime Ali. Not even the best version we ever saw of him. He was approaching his prime years,which were still two/three years off.
The Ali of FOTC was still an awesome incarnation of Muhammad,but not the best seventies aspect of him. The window of 1972-74 saw Ali at his 'second career' best.

As far as this thread goes,I'm torn on it. If Lewis comes out quickly and nails Frazier early,he could finish the job rapidly. However,if Lennox starts cautiously and allows Joe to come into the fight,and backs the Brit up,pressuring him,then it's a late round Frazier tko.

[gentleman jim]

I think Lewis' best chance lies in comming out of the blocks aggressively and trying to get Joe outta there early. He is big and can punch and he would be wise in putting those attributes to work early. The question is would he? Even if he tried to, prime Frazier was rather difficult to tag cleanly, especially when he got his rhythm. Joe slipped quire a few of Ali's shots and Ali had faster, more accurate hands than Lennox did. Would Lewis reteat into a defensive posture after tasting a few of Joe's hooks? If he does then he plays into Frazier's hands for the longer the fight goes the better Frazier's chances become. Is this a 15 round fight? That's something else to consider. Lewis never fought 15 rounds so he might try to conserve his energy and hope to outbox Joe who is a proven 15 round fighter. Lewis certainly has a shot in this one but I'll still go with Frazier by decision. If Lennox wins then it's by ko early. Possible....but not likely.

[mr. magoo]

To be frank, Lewis annihilates Joe in my book, if he comes in looking for a quick night.

That was my thinking when I posted my opinion on this thread some 5 years ago.. Lewis was only stopped by right hands, and regularly ate left hookers for breakfast.. He was a good 5-6 inches taller than Frazier and on an average night, would outweight him by a good 30 lbs or more.. He also had the kind of power in both hands that Frazier's chin wasn't made for, and a pretty damn good jab and footwork.... I don't see anything that Joe has to offer Lennox, with the exception of shear heart and will power, which doesn't help much when you're doing little other than just getting your ass kicked.

[fists of fury]

That was my thinking when I posted my opinion on this thread some 5 years ago.. Lewis was only stopped by right hands, and regularly ate left hookers for breakfast.. He was a good 5-6 inches taller than Frazier and on an average night, would outweight him by a good 30 lbs or more.. He also had the kind of power in both hands that Frazier's chin wasn't made for, and a pretty damn good jab and footwork.... I don't see anything that Joe has to offer Lennox, with the exception of shear heart and will power, which doesn't help much when you're doing little other than just getting your ass kicked.

Yeah, I see it the same. Frazier's calling card was to outman the other guy, basically to wear his opponents down through attrition.

Now, as you say, Lewis is by FAR the bigger man, and also a guy that hits like hell.
To outgut and outfight Lewis, Frazier is going to have to be landing a lot more punches on Lewis than vice-versa, and given how much of a size disadvantage Frazier is at, and how he was not a dynamite puncher nor a fast, explosive fighter, it's going to be a long night getting through the jab, the grab and the uppercuts/right hands.
He also showed a startling lack of self-preservation against Foreman, being wholly unable to tie his man up and gain a breather.

I love Joe, but this could turn ugly quickly, or turn into a lopsided, painful dissection that sees the fight getting stopped later. I'm guessing the former though, if Lewis fancies it.

[Hands of Iron]

To be frank, Lewis annihilates Joe in my book, if he comes in looking for a quick night.

Absolutely.

This isnt a remotely competitive fight, to be brutally honest. That has much more to do with Lewis' size, physical attributes, skill, power, etc. than anything Frazier lacked as a fighter on his own merit.

[lufcrazy]

Coin toss of a fight.

Lewis has shown he can be knocked out by a single shot. Frazier has shown he can be bombed out by a bigger man.

Lewis is one of the greatest outfighters in history. Frazier is one of the greatest infighters in history.

I can't favour either man so I sit on the fence and call it a draw.

[Shake]

That was my thinking when I posted my opinion on this thread some 5 years ago.. Lewis was only stopped by right hands, and regularly ate left hookers for breakfast.. He was a good 5-6 inches taller than Frazier and on an average night, would outweight him by a good 30 lbs or more.. He also had the kind of power in both hands that Frazier's chin wasn't made for, and a pretty damn good jab and footwork.... I don't see anything that Joe has to offer Lennox, with the exception of shear heart and will power, which doesn't help much when you're doing little other than just getting your ass kicked.

One thing Frazier has to trouble Lewis is pace. The best chance he has, imo, is to use his workrate, gluttony for punishment and tremendous fighting heart to set a pace big men can't follow.

Surefire predictions are for fortune-tellers, but say Frazier's chin holds up -- Lewis would have to clinch often and well. He's strong enough to do so. Being tired by the pace or overly delicate as he sometimes was might prevent him from doing so, however.

Should Frazier be able to take/slip Lennox' offense early, it could be an interesting night.

[Hands of Iron]

Coin toss of a fight.

Lewis has shown he can be knocked out by a single shot. Frazier has shown he can be bombed out by a bigger man.

Lewis is one of the greatest outfighters in history. Frazier is one of the greatest infighters in history.

I can't favour either man so I sit on the fence and call it a draw.

Size is far from everything, but in the case of a fighter of Lewis' caliber, I think it stacks the deck in his favor. Even today, people still underestimate the physical strength of Lennox and how heavy his hands were. He's got the hardest jab in history for my money, harnessed by an 84" reach. It's a battering ram. His right cross comparatively speaking, is among the most underrated. If Lewis isnt keeping him off and punishing him from a safe distance, he saps untold amounts of energy from his opponent simply by locking him up. I believe it was Holyfield who stated it felt like being covered in a cement blanket.

[lufcrazy]

Size is far from everything, but in the case of a fighter of Lewis' caliber, I think it stacks the deck in his favor. Even today, people still underestimate the physical strength of Lennox and how heavy his hands were. He's got the hardest jab in history for my money, harnessed by an 84" reach. It's a battering ram. His right cross comparatively speaking, is among the most underrated. If Lewis isnt keeping him off and punishing him from a safe distance, he saps untold amounts of energy from his opponent simply by locking him up. I believe it was Holyfield who stated it felt like being covered in a cement blanket.

I agree. But there's times when frazier would slip that jab and pummel lewis to the body. I think lewis wins the first half but frazier wins the second half. Too tough to call.

[Azzer85]

Interesting matchup.

Lewis has all the physical tools to do a job on Frazier, but he would have to put on the performance of a lifetime.

Frazier gets tons of credit and rightfully so, for beating ALi. But part of the problem was Ali didnt hard enough to keep frazier off him, Lewis has one of the hardest right hands in heavyweight history. However Lewis enjoyed being in control of the fight, he liked having things his way, Frazier wouldnt give him that oppurtunity.

Frazier would take Lewis into deep waters, the deepest waters Lewis was ever in was against Mercer.

Tough fight to predict, how would Frazier react to a right hand from Lewis? like the ones he took Golota and Tyson out with?

Tyson would have a much easier time with Frazier than Lewis would IMO

[DDDUUDDDEE]

Lewis ices him in six. It's styles yo.

[ticar]

Lewis ices him in six. It's styles yo.
yea just like he iced holyfield and tua.
he did blast some shw's,no doubt about that,but he was happy to box behind a jab against "small" hw,say holy or tua.