I Larry Holmes had never been

[janitor]

Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?

[ChrisPontius]

I'll wait for John Thomas to fill use up, using words that rhyme with "age" and start with a P.

[janitor]

I'll wait for John Thomas to fill use up, using words that rhyme with "age" and start with a P.

P**e might have had a slice of the pie in the scenario that I have outlined but I am guessing that he would not have held the title for long.

[SuzieQ49]

most people like witherspoon , but I am going to go with a wildcard here......Pinklon Thomas.

[janitor]

I get the feeling that Mike Weaver might have slipped through the net at some point.

[ChrisPontius]

Probably not. An off the top of my head scenario: Page was Holmes' mandatory, so say he wins the title in 1980 or 81. He now has the money to triple up his amount of coke, food and what not. Witherspoon, in looking excellent, takes over perhaps a year later, only to lose it to Thomas, who in turn looks spectacular around 83-84. He might keep it untill 86 when a young Tyson takes over.

So, i don't think there would be any dominant champion, but on the flipside, Page, Witherspoon and Thomas would all be very impressive during a select few nights. Something you could also, to a certain extent, say about Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer and Carnera, to go back to the 30's. Although i'm more impressed by 80's fighters than those if we're talking about their peaks, with the exception of Schmeling.

Weaver would probably end up as the Quarry of the 80's. Almost like he is now.

[mr. magoo]

Frankly, I think the divison would have been in deep trouble. There were too many fighters who had poor training habits, bad managment, and for whatever reason, that was a generation of people ( not only fighters ), who did a lot of drugs...

I think its possible that men like Witherspoon, Cooney, and Weaver could have gone a lot further than they did, without Holmes taking center stage. Dokes, Page, and Thomas would not have had my confidence given that they seemed to have had the most amount of trouble out of the bunch. If Cooney had not fought Holmes when he did, he may have had a good chance of taking a fragment of the crown, and slowly built up his confidence and experience levels, as would have Witherspoon.

As it currently stands, I rate Tim Witherspoon as the third best heavyweight of the 1980's behind Tyson and Holmes. In the abscence of Holmes, he may very well have been bumped up to #2. For whatever its worth, he was the only alpha champ to win fragments on two occasions, and defeated a larger list of top raters than any of the others. Perhaps Don King would have made a greater effort at trying to help him succeed, given that he would have had little else to work with...


A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis? Who would have been champion? Would this champion have been black or white? What would his title defenses have looked like, and how long would he have reigned?

Personally, I think the 1930's/1940's would have suffered terribly. Hell, Billy Conn may have taken the title for a brief period in that era, and maybe Braddock could have pulled a Dempsey stunt for a few years. Schmeling may have reigned for a bit too. The scariest thought that crosses my mind, is what if Tony " Two Ass " Galento had won the crown???

[janitor]

I suspect that in the "no Holmes scenario", lineage would have been re-established by a fight between Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers.

So presumably Shavers would be the next lineal champion after Ali and from there it is anybodys guess.

[janitor]

A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis? Who would have been champion? Would this champion have been black or white? What would his title defenses have looked like, and how long would he have reigned?

Personally, I think the 1930's/1940's would have suffered terribly. Hell, Billy Conn may have taken the title for a brief period in that era, and maybe Braddock could have pulled a Dempsey stunt for a few years. Schmeling may have reigned for a bit too. The scariest thought that crosses my mind, is what if Tony " Two Ass " Galento had won the crown???

I have given a fair amount of thought to that one myself but it perhaps requires its own thread.

The likely suspects in chronological order would be-

Max Schmeling
Tommy Far
Lou Nova
Bob Pastor
Max Baer
Billy Conn

[mr. magoo]

I suspect that in the "no Holmes scenario", lineage would have been re-established by a fight between Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers.

So presumably Shavers would be the next lineal champion after Ali and from there it is anybodys guess.

In 1979-1980, perhaps, but no further. Both of those men were shot by that point and either struggling or losing to journeyman. Some even feel that Norton was lucky to recieve a draw against scott Ledoux, while Shavers was beaten in 1980 by Tex Cobb. These guys would not have reigned long, and for the brief period that they had undue lineal status, it would have been viewed as a joke. John Tate had talent, but we saw in reality what happened to him against Mike Weaver. Had Weaver not suffered injuries causing him to only fight once between 1980-1982, Don King may have viewed him as a gold mine, and been less likely to shove Dokes into the WBA's throne. Weaver was well chizzled, exciting to watch and very respectable personality wise. But he wouldn't last.... As we already know.......

[SuzieQ49]

I have given a fair amount of thought to that one myself but it perhaps requires its own thread.

The likely suspects in chronological order would be-

Max Schmeling
Tommy Far
Lou Nova
Bob Pastor
Max Baer
Billy Conn



I disagree


I think this is how it would have played out


Max Schmeling
Lem Franklin
Billy Conn
Elmer Ray
Lee Q Murray
Jimmy Bivins
Jersey Joe Walcott


maybe sneak harry bobo in there

[SuzieQ49]

A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis?

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

[mr. magoo]

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

LOL :lol:

I'm not making fun of you Suzie. I just think its funny ( but not bad ), that you're one of the few people who mention the names of some of the black fighters of that era, that many of us know nothing about. Lee Q Murray?? I don't even know who the hell that is.. Lem Franklin, I've at least heard of. I think he should have gotten a title shot before Abe Simon did. Elmer Ray was another one I've heard of, but know little about him. Jimmy Bivens, I guess was a big name. Outside of that, I can't think of any of the old black fighters of the time. Of course there's Turkey Thompson, but I don't really know anything about him either.

Its all good my friend. Maybe you should start a thread talking about this bunch of forgotten men.

[Mendoza]

Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?

YES. Don King would have embraced Witherpsoon. A focused Withepsoon could have been the man from 1983 until Tyson matured around 1986.

[rekcutnevets]

Norton would have been the man until he faced Shavers. Shavers would hold the crown for a year of so, and be unseated by Weaver. Weaver would lose to Dokes.

Cooney would come along and appear to clean out the division; defeating Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Dokes, and Witherspoon. Cooney would then lose to Pinklon Thomas. Thomas would lose to Page. Page would lose to Carl Williams.

Tyson would come in and really clean house.

[zadfrak]

Cooney was not going to beat that level of competition without some losses. And Weaver would've never been on the map--he was a California journeyman with a mediocre record and that Holmes fight made his career. W/O a Larry Holmes bout, Mike just goes on winning a few and losing a few, but wouldn't have even cracked the top 10.

I might make a wildcard guy like a Coetzee or a Tate to be the best. That matchup would've never occured & Arum would've been putting his guys in with a different level of competition or the old name fighters like a Ron Lyle type guy instead. And without Weaver--who was the only heavy with late round ko power on the scene, Tate might box his way to some additional defenses before ultimately getting licked.

Coetzee would've fought in his backyard and there just aren't that many heavyweight road warriors from the U.S., so he may have held onto the title for awhile with ideal matchmaking.

Without Holmes, what would Don King have done?

[fists of fury]

It's very difficult in selecting one fighter to be dominant or relatively dominant during this period. All the guys mentioned so far had talent, but were erratic. That includes Witherspoon, who seems to be one of the leading candidates.
Thomas is another who could have possibly reigned for a while longer than he did, but with that drugs habit it's unlikely.

None of these guys had the combination of unwavering focus and outright talent to enjoy an extended run at the top, imo.

[ChrisPontius]

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

Maybe based on ability, but would they get their shot?

Remember that Louis was extraordinairy well-behaved for a black man with great management that got him a shot, even if they had to concede a percentage of future purses. I don't think any of the black men you mentioned had the management to get a shot. Maybe one or two of them.

[Ezzard]

Weaver's defeat to Dokes does smell fishy. There was a lot of talk about the fight being allowed to continue then didn't they draw in the rematch...?

I'd imagine Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Cooney, Page, Witherspoon, Thomas and Berbick would have passed the title around.

I'd go with Spoon and Thomas to do the best of them all...

[Unforgiven]

Without Holmes the titles would have changed hands regularly, just at the WBA line and the WBC 1984-'86 did when Holmes was around.

Those guys - Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Tubbs etc. - get a bad rap for losing the title so often, and Holmes gets a lot of credit for hanging on to his title BUT it should be noted that it was HOLMES who was sprinkling all those easy defences in his reign.

[janitor]

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

Lee Q Murray is a fighter that people on this site dont know much about, even relative to sombody like Lem Franklin, yet you and indeed some of his contemporaries hold him in high regard.

You could do worse than make a thread on him to bring people up to speed.

[Ezzard]

Without Holmes the titles would have changed hands regularly, just at the WBA line and the WBC 1984-'86 did when Holmes was around.

Those guys - Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Tubbs etc. - get a bad rap for losing the title so often, and Holmes gets a lot of credit for hanging on to his title BUT it should be noted that it was HOLMES who was sprinkling all those easy defences in his reign.

True but people look back on Page, Coetzee, Thomas etc... and make them out to be better than they were...

I mean Holmes fought Bey whose previous fight was a win over Page. Just when Thomas is getting a lot of support and opinion behind him he loses to Berbick.

In many ways though I see where you're coming from... Holmes' opponents when on to do better things after he beat them. So you migth argue that he got to guys like Spoon, Berbick, Weaver, Cooney, Williams and Frazier before they were fully rounded fighters...

[godking]

Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?Until the rise of Tyson nobody would have dominated . Talent wise the 80s was one of the best eras. Work ethic wise it was one of the worst. Only Holmes and Tyon had the determination to stay on top (and even Tyson faltered).

[Dempsey1238]

I rank Spinks number 3, after Holmes and Tyson in that era. Tim Witherspoon didnt take over like these guys. IMO Spinks, Tyson and Holmes were the big 3 of the heavyweights in the 1980's.

[godking]

I rank Spinks number 3, after Holmes and Tyson in that era. Tim Witherspoon didnt take over like these guys. IMO Spinks, Tyson and Holmes were the big 3 of the heavyweights in the 1980's.Spinks is not number 3 aside from beating an old Holmes controversially Spinks did not do much in the era.

[Dempsey1238]

Spinks beat Holmes, and Cooney. Also he held the lineal title for a while before Tyson ripped it from him. Sure he may not have beating the best in the heavyweights. But I think his win over Holmes, and lineal title rein should place him 3rd.

[Muchmoore]

Spinks did barely any better against an older Holmes than Carl Williams.

[Vantage_West]

whats everybody's fav.

i'm gonna list some peeps


we got

mike weaver
ken norton
greg page
michael dokes
leon spinks
michael spinks
mr.Snipes
The Truth
gerry cooney
The Pink
terrible Tim Witherspoon
John Tate



it's hard to say as everone has noted all are very talented but just didnt have there mind focussed on boxing, there mind on celebrity and there mind...covered in white powder. point is none were really on top form to be the best.

i would pick maybe thomas. his chin is rock solid he has a great boxing mind and can back you up with good power. he also came in shape very fequently

my second choice would prolly been the truth. amazing jab lovely boxing skills. got a good go against holmes and if holmes wasnt here he would of been a champ mos def.

thomas and williams for me

[Muchmoore]

Pinklon Thomas and Witherspoon would of done the best. But like most of the other posters have already said, they were all so inconsistent that the title would of changed hands pretty regularly.

[Bummy Davis]

1 Dont Think Anyone Would Have Been Dominant But Holmes May Have Not Been Dominant If He Faced The Likes Of Weaver(prime) Thomas,dokes,page,coetzee,tate, Ona Good Night Any Of Them Had A Chance Of Beating Holmes Or Each Other

[zadfrak]

Yeah Bummy, but the big X factor in all of this is still Cooney. I would've liked to see him nutured very early on by an Eddie Futch or Gil Clancy or Angie Dundee. And have those guys do their sculpting with him from day 1. If anyone was capable of a lot of defenses, it just may have been that particular version of a Gerry Cooney, if he had that type of boxing pedigree.

Thoughts?

[Bummy Davis]

Yeah Bummy, but the big X factor in all of this is still Cooney. I would've liked to see him nutured very early on by an Eddie Futch or Gil Clancy or Angie Dundee. And have those guys do their sculpting with him from day 1. If anyone was capable of a lot of defenses, it just may have been that particular version of a Gerry Cooney, if he had that type of boxing pedigree.

Thoughts?


Cooney had his weaknesses but his hook and size were strengths. I dont think Gerry really had the utmost confidence. I do agree that a fighter trained early on by a great master makes a Large difference. Joe Louis had Chappie Blackburn, Marciano had Charley Goldman, Ali had Dundee,Duran had Arcel and Brown. Victor Vallee did a good job with Gerry but 2, 1 rd blowouts in 2 yrs did not really prepare Cooney for a 15 rd fight with Holmes but The wacko twins wanted to make the money with an undfeated fighter as opposed to a prepared one. Jerry Quarry was another guy who had a natural Solid chin and Power but early on mistrained by his father and later on trained by Clancy but his body was in decline. Fighter with great assets like Nick Wells (power) were ruined as pro's and Willie Dewitt from Canada was ruined by taking Mark Tessman as a trainer instead of a master to mold a talent. Mark Breland, and Howard Davis Jr. could have been better fighters with a Master in there corner

[zadfrak]

Agreed.

You just rarely see the C grade corner coming out with the win against the A corners. And you also need a guy that'll listen to the corner===but you have had the rare breeds that do it all their own way like later day Foreman & Eubank.

I always look at the corner/manager/promoter of a guy. And in that Holmes fight, that Cooney braintrust was in way over their head. Just like the downhill skier, these guys were way over the tip of their ski's and it's hard to not crash land. I'm not sure even if you reversed corners that Holmes still wouldn't jab the guy to death though.