Most Beautiful Boxer to watch ever?

[TIGEREDGE]

who would you say is the boxer that you most enjoy watching?

I would say it is Mike Tyson followed closely by ray robinson. tyson's rough, aggresive style was pure puglistic beauty. there is nothing in sports that is greater to watch than tyson flattening someone

[pryorgatti]

Tyson (the perfect offensive D'Amato style)
SRR (Ali copied him, SRL copied Ali, and RJJ copied SRL)
Pep (poetry in motion)
Pea (wizardry at his best)

[TIGEREDGE]

Tyson (the perfect offensive D'Amato style)
SRR (Ali copied him, SRL copied Ali, and RJJ copied SRL)
Pep (poetry in motion)
Pea (wizardry at his best)

pea would of been great to watch if he made more use of the good punch power that he had

[Big N Bad]

pea would of been great to watch if he made more use of the good punch power that he had
agreed:good

[heerko koois]

Thomas Hearns for me....always entertaining winn or lose...

[Bummy Davis]

Willie Pep, Ken Buchanan, Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray's....Ali vs Liston 1

[TIGEREDGE]

Thomas Hearns for me....always entertaining winn or lose...

yes. i can't get enough of watching him flatten duran and cuevas

[sjc]

Floyd

[mcvey]

Pep ,B Leonard ,what there is of Driscoll and Gans,Ross,these are pure boxers to me.Recently I have enjoyed watching .Pacman,Corralles,MAB.Pavlik entertains me

[pryorgatti]

Pea doesn't need to show power to be beautiful to watch lol

[Muchmoore]

Laila Ali.

[TIGEREDGE]

Pea doesn't need to show power to be beautiful to watch lol

it depends on your tastes. some people like his style more than others.

[DINAMITA]

Prince Naseem Hamed! 1 punch KO power, absolutely no defence whatsoever, pace, arrogance- every fight ended spectacularly. The Kevin Kelley fight? Come on.

For technical excellence: Pernell Whitaker
For all-round brilliance: Roy Jones Jr or Sugar Ray Leonard
For brute destruction: The young Roberto Duran or Felix Trinidad

[TIGEREDGE]

Prince Naseem Hamed! 1 punch KO power, absolutely no defence whatsoever, pace, arrogance- every fight ended spectacularly. The Kevin Kelley fight? Come on.

For technical excellence: Pernell Whitaker
For all-round brilliance: Roy Jones Jr or Sugar Ray Leonard
For brute destruction: The young Roberto Duran or Felix Trinidad

like your categorisation of this the answer to this threads question:

here is my awards:

For technical excellence: Pernell Whitaker
For all-round brilliance: Ray Robinson or Jones Jnr
For brute destruction: Tyson

[Manassa]

Sweet Pea and I like watching Jose Napoles. Not together, that would be gay.

[pryorgatti]

Tito is not a bad choice I reckon

[Muchmoore]

I'd probably go with watching Whitaker, Ali, Duran.

[TIGEREDGE]

Tito is not a bad choice I reckon
i agree. i have watched his destructions of joppy and vargas countless times

[TIGEREDGE]

i am surprised that nobody has mentioned oscar. when in form he was beautiful to watch. his left hand was perhaps the best left ever

[TIGEREDGE]

I'd probably go with watching Whitaker, Ali, Duran.
even though ali was the greatest character this game has ever had, i only really enjoyed watching the frazier fights. there was nothing outstanding (from a boxing entertainment point) for me against othr opponents.

i know that he did some great showboating and had awesome speed for a man of his size. I just didn't find him that entertaining a boxer. I have to say he was much more entertainig than the current heavyweight king

[TIGEREDGE]

it may be because i wasn't old enough to remember the magic of Ali. it was probably different for people of that time

i bet that there will be a lot of replys to this thread about the greatest

[Muchmoore]

even though ali was the greatest character this game has ever had, i only really enjoyed watching the frazier fights. there was nothing outstanding (from a boxing entertainment point) for me against othr opponents.

i know that he did some great showboating and had awesome speed for a man of his size. I just didn't find him that entertaining a boxer. he was much more entertainig than the current heavyweight king

I liked Ali because of how clumsy and slow he always made his oppontant look. The speed and agility he had for a heavyweight is what makes me watch him.

[McGrain]

Roberto Duran.

[Minotauro]

Recently I've been watching a lot of Eder Jofre that man could do it all.

[eliqueiros]

i am surprised that nobody has mentioned oscar. when in form he was beautiful to watch. his left hand was perhaps the best left ever

Oscar was beautiful to watch when he was in form, as you stated. But often he would be so tense he appeared robotic and this tired him out down the stretch. But in the lighter weights and in the upper when he was on top of his game he was great to watch, almost a mix between Arguello and Leonard.

[eliqueiros]

Ray Leonard for me.
The way he fought off the ropes was incredible.
Incredible footwork, ring generalship, with ko power.
Showmanship and blinding speed. Could throw a left hook from the outside as a leading punch to close distance as in first Duran fight. I see that very rarely. Jones Jr. is the only other that comes to mind.

[Vantage_West]

Laila Ali.i saw wat you did there:D






i would prolly choose. ricardo lopez. i started to watch alot of him. i love how he can use any punch and land it perfectly while carring the power with it.

[Seamus]

As an offensive machine, Joe Louis. Beautiful puncher, perfect leverage, great combo's, snake-like quick and devastating power.

[Rui]

James Toney, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jose Napoles, Cristian Mijares (a bit of a stretch, but I believe when his career his done, he'll be a junior bantamweight/bantamweight legend).

[Seamus]

Julio Cesar Chavez, when in top form, is a sight to behold. A real threshing machine.

[round15]

Mike Tyson during the Cus D'amato years was a beautiful fighter to watch when he put his combinations togther.

Alexis Arguello, Tommy Hearns and Pernell Whitaker were fun to watch as well.

[red cobra]

Ken Buchanan and Jose Napoles come to mind and Marco Antonio Barrera as he was vs Prince Hamed also.

[red cobra]

Wilfredo Gomez on the night he destroyed Carlos Zarate.

[Lefty Supremacy]

No mention of sweet_scientist's favorite Edward Rackley yet?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Larson]

Roberto Duran, SRR.

[Stonehands89]

Some guys are technicians extraordinaire -Moore, Duran, Arguello, Chavez... but they weren't smooth or poetic really. They were advanced and efficient machines. But machines aren't beautiful. At least to me. Tyson was a machine with comparatively a half-tank of fuel but he fought like a Neanderthal when you compare him to the beautiful fighters who waxed poetic.

These are Robinson and Pep. Tommy Loughren and Holman Williams. Benny Leonard.

I'd throw Ali in there, but his was a stanza compared to the body of work completed by the profilic artists who preceded him.

[sweet_scientist]

No mention of sweet_scientist's favorite Edward Rackley yet?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
NOBODY beat's the GOAT's ring generalship.

[Nobudius]

Since joining this board, I've been surprised at how many times Mantequilla gets mentioned here. He can be hard to "get" due to being like a Ferrari in cruise control (do Ferraris even have cruise control?), but once he steps on the gas, he reminds you on why he is indeed a Ferrari.

I do enjoy watching the "slow" starters like Napoles, Alexis, Chavez, & etc. Patience, patience, patience. Even Frazier-take a bit, but after a few rounds, he is SMOKIN'.

Tyson was fun to watch during the HBO heyday b/c of the anticipation of the KO-do remember how "disappointed" we would be when it went the full 12. Reminds me of when I followed Hearns-awesome following his path to the showdown with Sugar, & the bitter taste of defeat when he lost.

[slicksouthpaw16]

who would you say is the boxer that you most enjoy watching?

I would say it is Mike Tyson followed closely by ray robinson. tyson's rough, aggresive style was pure puglistic beauty. there is nothing in sports that is greater to watch than tyson flattening someone

LMAO! Thanks, i really needed that laugh. Tyson was not a beautiful boxer, he was a very exciting and highly talented knockout artist, but nothing was pretty. I would say Pernell Whitaker, Ray Leonard, Muhammed Ali or Ray Robinson would be top canidates for it. I personally would pick Ali. The beautiful movement, footspeed, handspeed, counter punching, combinations ect was the best ever IMO.

[slicksouthpaw16]

This is a nice track to this video too.
([Only registered and activated users can see links])


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="[Only registered and activated users can see links]"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="[Only registered and activated users can see links]" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
([Only registered and activated users can see links])


:Edit: Damn, i finally got the video up. Took me like 20 minutes. :D

[sweet_scientist]

Pernell Whitaker is the most beautiful boxer to watch for mine.

We don't have enough film of guys like Pep, Driscoll, B. Leonard, Locche, Loughran etc. to really appreciate them. They may all have been more beautiful to watch than Whitaker, but I challenge anyone to prove to me that the existent fights with those guy, even COMBINED, compares to the sweetness displayed by the Pea. It doesn't.

[Nobudius]

S_S,

I won't challenge you, but what was your impression of say, Locche or Pep when you first saw them?

You hear much about Pep, but I was pleasantly surprised at Locche. He's a short, squat, balding man who doesn't appear to possess any great physical traits, but he's completely deceiving. Watching him on the ropes, I blurted out "that's Mayweather".

[Larson]

Kid Gavilan.

[slicksouthpaw16]

I would put Robinson on the same level or even above the level of Whitaker when it comes to boxing skills. Speed is better when you can put the power with it and Robinson was the complete package when it comes to doing that.

[sweet_scientist]

S_S,

I won't challenge you, but what was your impression of say, Locche or Pep when you first saw them?

You hear much about Pep, but I was pleasantly surprised at Locche. He's a short, squat, balding man who doesn't appear to possess any great physical traits, but he's completely deceiving. Watching him on the ropes, I blurted out "that's Mayweather".

I'm not too impressed by the footage I've seen of Pep to tell you the truth Nobudius. He does show flashes of brilliance, especially with the way he throws his combos, but he doesn't leave me in awe. Which is fine, I'm not exactly left in awe from watching Whitaker against Andrei Pestriaev and Felix Trinidad, which is about the equivalent stage of Pep's career where most of his fights appear filmed. I've only seen one fight of Pep's in his prime, against Ralph Walton, and the tracking on it was pretty bad and it was terribly slowed down, so it's hard to gauge much from it.

Now, Locche doesn't have much on film either, but we do have a good bit of him in his prime, and what I see is sublime. You're right, he is about the most unathletic fighter you would ever care to see, but he is almost telepathic in the way he can read his opponents moves in order to react to them. And you're spot on about the Mayweather comment too. Locche's defense is probably second to none, but I'd say he isn't as gifted in throwing punches as some of the other great purist boxers are.

[Nobudius]

I'm sort of in the same boat with you on Pep. It reminded me of when I first saw Henry Armstrong, & I was like, "this is it?" But then you look at what they had accomplished, & 1+1 doesn't equal 2. lol

Pep does USE the entire ring though-his footage still has puzzles for me. I think the Pep I would LOVE to see was when he won back the title from Saddler.

Locche set those traps, where he sticks his damn head out. An open invitation, if you will. I know a few guys deep into PBF, & I showed them some Locche footage. These clowns could barely keep themselves from yelling at the TV. I've also heard he was a smoker-something about them Argentinians that are helter skelter.

Speaking of Argentinians, I also showed them clips of Monzon, & they started criticizing him as a slow stiff.

"But you guys like Pea, right?"

"Yeah."

"Well, like Pea, that stiff can fight off his backfoot!"

Some of my buddies need to collect some fights!

[RosarioJ]

I'm 72 and have been a boxing fan all my life. I saw them all. Louis, Marciano, Robinson, Lamotta Etc. The most beautiful fighter I ever saw was a little bantemweight back in the 50's named Raul (Raton) Macias. He ended his career with a 41-2 record. Being a bantemweight he didn't get the attention he deserved. But I tell you, It's all these years later and there have been many great fighters, but for me Raul Macias was in a class by himself.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm sort of in the same boat with you on Pep. It reminded me of when I first saw Henry Armstrong, & I was like, "this is it?" But then you look at what they had accomplished, & 1+1 doesn't equal 2. lol

Pep does USE the entire ring though-his footage still has puzzles for me. I think the Pep I would LOVE to see was when he won back the title from Saddler.

You and me both mate. I'd also love to see him at his absolute best pre-plane crash to really savour his greatness.

Locche set those traps, where he sticks his damn head out. An open invitation, if you will. I know a few guys deep into PBF, & I showed them some Locche footage. These clowns could barely keep themselves from yelling at the TV. I've also heard he was a smoker-something about them Argentinians that are helter skelter.

Amazing how against a guy like Cervantes he'd even dare to hold his hands behind his back and bend over towards Cervantes to invite a punch. The guy was some character, and it came out in his fights.

Speaking of Argentinians, I also showed them clips of Monzon, & they started criticizing him as a slow stiff.

"But you guys like Pea, right?"

"Yeah."

"Well, like Pea, that stiff can fight off his backfoot!"

Some of my buddies need to collect some fights!

This is an important point here. There is a difference between 'looking' good and being good. Most of the times one equals the other, but not always. I can't say I've always been impressed with Monzon myself, but he was no doubt VERY effective, and hard to beat - and without question, one of the greatest of all time.

[slicksouthpaw16]

I'm 72 and have been a boxing fan all my life. I saw them all. Louis, Marciano, Robinson, Lamotta Etc. The most beautiful fighter I ever saw was a little bantemweight back in the 50's named Raul (Raton) Macias. He ended his career with a 41-2 record. Being a bantemweight he didn't get the attention he deserved. But I tell you, It's all these years later and there have been many great fighters, but for me Raul Macias was in a class by himself.


Its cool to hear from a guy that has actually been around the sport for that long. This forum will be happy to hear from you and your experience of boxing. We will be all ears.

[sweet_scientist]

Its cool to hear from a guy that has actually been around the sport for that long. This forum will be happy to hear from you and your experience of boxing. We will be all ears.

For sure.

Welcome to the forum RosarioJ. :good

Can you tell us a little more about Raton Macias? Do you think he could beat some of the great bantam champs throughout the years like Jofre, Harada, Olivares and Zarate?

[joekirkbycobra]

sweet pea
jc chaves
srr
rjj
srl
willie
loche
hearns
arquello
duran

[sweet_scientist]

Here's some nice footage I just put up of Whitaker against Harold Brazier. Pernell is a lot more flatfooted here than he was as a lightweight, but works the angles and the combos masterfully.

-ynGnpGgwCw

[Nobudius]

This is an important point here. There is a difference between 'looking' good and being good. Most of the times one equals the other, but not always. I can't say I've always been impressed with Monzon myself, but he was no doubt VERY effective, and hard to beat - and without question, one of the greatest of all time.

Ultimately, it's definitely a sport of effectiveness.

I just thought Monzon & Locche were guys that "look" ridiculous, but they have a method to their madness that is so effective. Monzon doesn't look like a guy that can fight off the backfoot, but he COULD. Very odd-as very few could do it, even the gifted athletes.

As for Cervantes, he kept his cool in that bout against Locche. Again, be patient!

Pea has been mentioned several times on this thread, & I think he is definitely being appreciated MORE in the last few years (his attitude didn't help). He definitely had a "wow" factor, without even having an offensive round. I sort of imagine Pep being the same way-it's easy to dismiss guys strictly from available footage.

Key word being: available.

[JohnThomas1]

It's a pity peak SRR isn't on film, he'd be a lay down for me.

[Stonehands89]

Willie Pep showed "flashes" of brilliance? I'm sitting here gnawing on my knuckles, SS!

Pep is universally acclaimed by guys in the know, who saw him, who were fighters themselves. Pep inspired awe in great fighters! And there is enough film in existence where we can see for ourselves what he was...

noekDcMy0u8&feature=related

[sweet_scientist]

Willie Pep showed "flashes" of brilliance? I'm sitting here gnawing on my knuckles, SS!

Pep is universally acclaimed by guys in the know, who saw him, who were fighters themselves. Pep inspired awe in great fighters! And there is enough film in existence where we can see for ourselves what he was...

noekDcMy0u8&feature=related
There ain't enough in the film I've seen of him for me to say he looks better than Sweet Pea, but I definitely acknowledge what so many wise heads have said about him.

It's kinda ridiculous to expect Pep to look that great given the stage of his career when most of the fight footage was taken of him, and I just hope no one is lying to themselves with the belief that THAT Pep is more beautiful to watch than Whitaker, or plenty of other fighters for that matter.

[redrooster]

Pipino Cuevas

Marvin Hagler

Tony Ayala Jr

Animal Fletcher


SwwetPea is okay but I never watched him much

SRL fought like a queer

[Stonehands89]

There ain't enough in the film I've seen of him for me to say he looks better than Sweet Pea, but I definitely acknowledge what so many wise heads have said about him.

It's kinda ridiculous to expect Pep to look that great given the stage of his career when most of the fight footage was taken of him, and I just hope no one is lying to themselves with the belief that THAT Pep is more beautiful to watch than Whitaker, or plenty of other fighters for that matter.
Who's more beautiful than who is a subjective matter. I give more weight than perhaps I have been known to before to what's been said by insiders about guys like Loughren, Pep, and Holman Williams -even given the lack of tape. You state that given the deficient film, you go with Pea. From what I can say from watching what we have and drawing conclusions, Pep gets the nod from me. We don't have much of WW Robinson but he's the hands-down favorite for best WW ever. It's similar logic in my position.

I see Pea as less graceful than Pep but more complex and complicated if you will. Pea had a funny build -with his butt sticking out and those little boy arms. A great boxer and defensive savant he was, but "beautiful" he was not.

[JohnThomas1]

SRL

Finally seeing some sense

:good

[Seamus]

I can't abide by the Ali suggestion. At his peaks, yes, he was beautiful, but more often when I think of him I think of clinching, holding behind the head, holding the ropes, covering up and taking a beating, the stalling tactics... I guess he just fought too long.

[redrooster]

Finally seeing some sense

:good

I was just creating another opportunity for one of my famous putdowns of that clown. This thread should really be about Ali. He always called himself the prettiest.

[TIGEREDGE]

LMAO! Thanks, i really needed that laugh. Tyson was not a beautiful boxer, he was a very exciting and highly talented knockout artist, but nothing was pretty. I would say Pernell Whitaker, Ray Leonard, Muhammed Ali or Ray Robinson would be top canidates for it. I personally would pick Ali. The beautiful movement, footspeed, handspeed, counter punching, combinations ect was the best ever IMO.
i thought it was lovely to watch seeing him knocking guys out with beatiful combination punches and fast hand speed. mike was more than just a slugger in his younger days. he was a work of art

[TIGEREDGE]

this thread is not about who was the most beautiful boxer. its about who you found most attractive to watch

[TIGEREDGE]

whitaker was a lovely boxer, but was he the type of boxer whose fights you watch over and over again. on the other hand i cannot get enough of watching tyson, de la hoya, ttito and robinson sparking opponents

[Robbi]

Whitaker, Holmes, Marquez, Lopez.

[TIGEREDGE]

for anybody who didn't know that tyson could box, watch these videos:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

did you ever see sweet pea do anything as spectacular as what iron mike did in the latter video.

[Seamus]

for anybody who didn't know that tyson could box, watch these videos:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

did you ever see sweet pea do anything as spectacular as what iron mike did in the latter video.


Uh, Sweat Pea did his best work against Hall of Fame lightweights and welterweights. Not Reggie Gross.

[TIGEREDGE]

Uh, Sweat Pea did his best work against Hall of Fame lightweights and welterweights. Not Reggie Gross.

good thread.

the point i am making is that whitaker never had the whow factor despite all his skills. whitaker was never highlight reel material

[sweet_scientist]

Who's more beautiful than who is a subjective matter. I give more weight than perhaps I have been known to before to what's been said by insiders about guys like Loughren, Pep, and Holman Williams -even given the lack of tape. You state that given the deficient film, you go with Pea. From what I can say from watching what we have and drawing conclusions, Pep gets the nod from me. We don't have much of WW Robinson but he's the hands-down favorite for best WW ever. It's similar logic in my position.

I see Pea as less graceful than Pep but more complex and complicated if you will. Pea had a funny build -with his butt sticking out and those little boy arms. A great boxer and defensive savant he was, but "beautiful" he was not.

Beauty is as subjective/objective as anything else imo. If you claim any truth as a truth, you can have anyone turn around and say, that's subjective, or relative, or whatever and then you get into the problem of trying to justify the belief upon something foundational which ultimately ends up being itself open to criticism/doubt.

But in any case, I don't think I'll be able to convince you about Whitaker looking more beautiful on film than Pep. I will say though, that I also think that people overdo what they make of Robinson on film. We have a lot of Robinson on film, and a few fights in his prime as well, but the middleweight Robinson we see is not the greatest fighter of all time, no matter what people believe.

[sweet_scientist]

good thread.

the point i am making is that whitaker never had the whow factor despite all his skills. whitaker was never highlight reel material
Have you seen any highlight reels of Whitaker?

I know it doesn't amount to getting hit ten times by Reggie Gross and then knocking him out, but check this out:

yjTHLPmfBCQ

[Sweet Pea]

good thread.

the point i am making is that whitaker never had the whow factor despite all his skills. whitaker was never highlight reel materialHe had some of the best highlights reels out there with his defensive maneuvers and counter-punching skills, and all out boxing clinics. KO'ing somebody isn't all there is to a highlight reel.

[BITCH ASS]

He had some of the best highlights reels out there with his defensive maneuvers and counter-punching skills, and all out boxing clinics. KO'ing somebody isn't all there is to a highlight reel.

I knew your gay ass was certain to be on this thread.

[Sweet Pea]

I knew your gay ass was certain to be on this thread.You really are sad. I know you're a ghetto butt-thug who is certain to have taken many ass-poundings in the slammer by "Bubba", but is taking it out on an internet forum really the answer? Seek help, maybe you can get the 15 year old boy from your neighborhood you speak so much about in the Lounge to protect your ass(literally).

[Stonehands89]

Beauty is as subjective/objective as anything else imo. If you claim any truth as a truth, you can have anyone turn around and say, that's subjective, or relative, or whatever and then you get into the problem of trying to justify the belief upon something foundational which ultimately ends up being itself open to criticism/doubt.
I'm no relativist. They ultimately hang themselves with their own misguided logic. I would also assert that some things are indeed necessarily subjective like your choice of ice cream or taste in music. Other things are not so subjective and can at least approach an identifiable objective standard, unless one's mind is a sieve.

Some arguments are simply more weighty than others.

In America, we are are dumbing down the whole nation in the name of some badly defined version of "tolerance" and "respect" - we offend reason & rationality to spare feelings. It's sick.

Anyway back to the point. Someone arguing that Ray Leonard was greater than Sugar Ray Robinson offends my intellect, not my taste.

But in any case, I don't think I'll be able to convince you about Whitaker looking more beautiful on film than Pep. I will say though, that I also think that people overdo what they make of Robinson on film. We have a lot of Robinson on film, and a few fights in his prime as well, but the middleweight Robinson we see is not the greatest fighter of all time, no matter what people believe.
Agreed.

[BITCH ASS]

You really are sad. I know you're a ghetto butt-thug who is certain to have taken many ass-poundings in the slammer by "Bubba", but is taking it out on an internet forum really the answer? Seek help, maybe you can get the 15 year old boy from your neighborhood you speak so much about in the Lounge to protect your ass(literally).

Damn, you musta stuck something up your ass again after you woke up this morning.

Lighten up.

[Nobudius]

Although Robinson's middleweight tenure was spotty, the Lamotta footage is pretty unbelievable IMHO. You can certainly witness many of the elements that come from the literature-he was near his peak, although many were saying he was past his "best" as far back vs. Gavilan. It's as GOOD as anything I've seen through the years from any fighter.

[Seamus]

In America, we are are dumbing down the whole nation in the name of some badly defined version of "tolerance" and "respect" - we offend reason & rationality to spare feelings. It's sick.


Well put and so very true.

[Sweet Pea]

Damn, you musta stuck something up your ass again after you woke up this morning.

Lighten up.Stick to the Lounge. I know nobody gives a rat's ass about your moaning BS about your girl problems(a.k.a. Bubba problems) and your "hood", but that's no reason to infect this forum with your bullshit.

[TIGEREDGE]

Have you seen any highlight reels of Whitaker?

I know it doesn't amount to getting hit ten times by Reggie Gross and then knocking him out, but check this out:

yjTHLPmfBCQ
i have seen a lot of whitaker and he could do a lot of amazing things. i reckon that he could of beat everyone throughout history at lightweight, light welter and welterweight (yes srr, duran and srl is well)

but his way of fighting is far from the most magnetic for me and most people who watch the sport

tyson never got hit once by gross in that clip

[jamel]

Regina Halmich :-D

[TIGEREDGE]

Regina Halmich :-D

who was he

[Scorpion]

Benitez.

[john garfield]

If anyone deserved to be called "Sugar," it was Robinson. He was like runnin' your hand over silk in the '40s.

[Stonehands89]

If anyone deserved to be called "Sugar," it was Robinson. He was like runnin' your hand over silk in the '40s.
At the Boston Garden, when Larry Bird retired, they retired his number with him (#33). I for one have done the same with "Sugar"... there was only one Sugar Ray.

Ray Leonard is Ray Leonard.
Shane Mosley is Shane Mosley.
Walker Smith Jr. is Sugar Ray Robinson.

[JohnThomas1]

At the Boston Garden, when Larry Bird retired, they retired his number with him (#33). I for one have done the same with "Sugar"... there was only one Sugar Ray.

Ray Leonard is Ray Leonard.
Shane Mosley is Shane Mosley.
Walker Smith Jr. is Sugar Ray Robinson.

Hahaha, and that's a damn fair call too IMO.

[Robbi]

i have seen a lot of whitaker and he could do a lot of amazing things. i reckon that he could of beat everyone throughout history at lightweight, light welter and welterweight (yes srr, duran and srl is well)

Whitaker beating those fighters you listed, nope. Duran at lightweight, yes. But not SRR or SRL at welterweight.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm no relativist. They ultimately hang themselves with their own misguided logic. I would also assert that some things are indeed necessarily subjective like your choice of ice cream or taste in music. Other things are not so subjective and can at least approach an identifiable objective standard, unless one's mind is a sieve.

Some arguments are simply more weighty than others.

In America, we are are dumbing down the whole nation in the name of some badly defined version of "tolerance" and "respect" - we offend reason & rationality to spare feelings. It's sick.

Anyway back to the point. Someone arguing that Ray Leonard was greater than Sugar Ray Robinson offends my intellect, not my taste.



I'm glad you can still hold onto some things as non-relative. My studies in philosophy have shaken my beliefs in most things, at least so far as certainty goes and the ability for reasoning to found truths.

But sticking to the point: do you find Pep being a more beautiful boxer to watch than Pea a matter of taste or intellect? I would like to hear the intellectual arguments for it. I don't think saying Pea has a big butt and spindly arms is all that relevant a reason, mind you, unless of course you're using what a fighter looks like, as opposed to how they fight, as a criterion for who is beautiful to watch. If you are, then we have a disagreement about criteria. Which is really an argument about ultimate foundations i.e. what counts as beauty?

[Stonehands89]

I'm glad you can still hold onto some things as non-relative. My studies in philosophy have shaken my beliefs in most things, at least so far as certainty goes and the ability for reasoning to found truths.

But sticking to the point: do you find Pep being a more beautiful boxer to watch than Pea a matter of taste or intellect? I would like to hear the intellectual arguments for it. I don't think saying Pea has a big butt and spindly arms is all that relevant a reason, mind you, unless of course you're using what a fighter looks like, as opposed to how they fight, as a criterion for who is beautiful to watch. If you are, then we have a disagreement about criteria. Which is really an argument about ultimate foundations i.e. what counts as beauty?
There seems to be a certain anarchy of thought that is the bedfellow of relativism. I don't know where you are writing from but here in the U.S the results of the culture's lurching toward this mode of thought over the past 4 or 5 decades is a root cause of many societal ills.

We were better off when the bastions of moral authority were upheld instead of attacked and there were objective standards of right and wrong instead of this "I'm OK, you're OK" nonsense. Then we have the problem of letting the 1st amendment run amok. Our baser instincts are not only given free reign but those who indulge it command the rest of us to 'respect' their indulgences. But we go further. We make celebrities out of them.

The devolution shows. Freedom without responsibility (and that demands a certainty, not an anarchy, of thought) is licentiousness... and the only "absolute" Americans uphold is their absolute right to do whatever they want according to their own underdeveloped conscience.

On to the next item: Pea's big butt and funny build are objective facts. I'm kidding -the whole point of that statement is to illustrate the absurd of a given subjective opinion. Pep simply seemed to me to be more graceful and fluid in his movements. Perhaps I am simply responding to my regard for Pep's casual flare in his performances -he did it with such nonchalance that I find it charming. Pea came off as a smirking show-off. His jumping up on every ring post even when people were booing annoyed me.

Or, alternatively, my preference may simply be due to Pea's southpaw position which I found distracting. I've always believed that we should get Spartan with southpaws: gather them up and hurl them over cliffs en masse. They do everything backwards and therefore have forfeited their right to live. We should hurl them over cliffs and then torture their corpses and gibbet them as examples to all aspiring boxers. That's just my opinion. But that opinion is no less valuable than anyone else's, right?

[dpw417]

At the Boston Garden, when Larry Bird retired, they retired his number with him (#33). I for one have done the same with "Sugar"... there was only one Sugar Ray.

Ray Leonard is Ray Leonard.
Shane Mosley is Shane Mosley.
Walker Smith Jr. is Sugar Ray Robinson.
Well said.:good

[Sweet Pea]

Or, alternatively, my preference may simply be due to Pea's southpaw position which I found distracting. I've always believed that we should get Spartan with southpaws: gather them up and hurl them over cliffs en masse. They do everything backwards and therefore have forfeited their right to live. We should hurl them over cliffs and then torture their corpses and gibbet them as examples to all aspiring boxers. That's just my opinion. But that opinion is no less valuable than anyone else's, right? :?

[Maxmomer]

:?

He has a point.

[Stonehands89]

...or perhaps I always had a hard time solving the southpaw style myself... so I'm holding a grudge.

[Seamus]

Pernell Whitaker. His performance against JCC was one of the most beautiful boxing displays that I've ever seen.

that was an ugly fight. i had whitaker winning on rounds, not by much, and he certainly won the rounds he took by more than JCC did. But I would hardly call that a great display.

competency versus a great, though, is still great.

[TIGEREDGE]

that was an ugly fight. i had whitaker winning on rounds, not by much, and he certainly won the rounds he took by more than JCC did. But I would hardly call that a great display.

competency versus a great, though, is still great.

good points. taylor performances against chavez was much better to watch

[Sweet Pea]

He has a point.He just said we should gather all southpaws and throw them over a cliff. Either you're as drunk as I am or you didn't actually read anything he wrote.

[sweet_scientist]

There seems to be a certain anarchy of thought that is the bedfellow of relativism. I don't know where you are writing from but here in the U.S the results of the culture's lurching toward this mode of thought over the past 4 or 5 decades is a root cause of many societal ills.

We were better off when the bastions of moral authority were upheld instead of attacked and there were objective standards of right and wrong instead of this "I'm OK, you're OK" nonsense. Then we have the problem of letting the 1st amendment run amok. Our baser instincts are not only given free reign but those who indulge it command the rest of us to 'respect' their indulgences. But we go further. We make celebrities out of them.

The devolution shows. Freedom without responsibility (and that demands a certainty, not an anarchy, of thought) is licentiousness... and the only "absolute" Americans uphold is their absolute right to do whatever they want according to their own underdeveloped conscience.

There are counterarguments to what you say, but I'm not going to go down that path and make a debate of it. All I'll say is fair enough if you believe that. I haven't come to terms with what I believe on many ethical/meaning-of-life issues, despite devoting much time to it in study, and so I'll be silent on this issue.

On to the next item: Pea's big butt and funny build are objective facts. I'm kidding -the whole point of that statement is to illustrate the absurd of a given subjective opinion. Pep simply seemed to me to be more graceful and fluid in his movements. Perhaps I am simply responding to my regard for Pep's casual flare in his performances -he did it with such nonchalance that I find it charming. Pea came off as a smirking show-off. His jumping up on every ring post even when people were booing annoyed me.

Pea was an arrogant cunt. No doubt about it. But when it comes to casualness and nonchalance, you won't find a more casual and nonchalant customer than Pernell Whitaker. I think Pea's whole raison d'etre was to show how he could make a fool of fighters without trying. And no one did it better. His self confidence was incredible, no matter who was in front of him. Few fighters left an encounter with Whitaker being physically hurt, but by the same token, few left such an encounter without being totally humiliated.


Personally, I found his antics comedic, but I can also see how they would be annoying, especially if you did not buy into his persona to begin with.

Or, alternatively, my preference may simply be due to Pea's southpaw position which I found distracting. I've always believed that we should get Spartan with southpaws: gather them up and hurl them over cliffs en masse. They do everything backwards and therefore have forfeited their right to live. We should hurl them over cliffs and then torture their corpses and gibbet them as examples to all aspiring boxers. That's just my opinion. But that opinion is no less valuable than anyone else's, right?

Southpaw's are pretty hard to catch, it might be hard to round them all up. Good luck with your endeavor :D.

[RosarioJ]

For sure.

Welcome to the forum RosarioJ. :good

Can you tell us a little more about Raton Macias? Do you think he could beat some of the great bantam champs throughout the years like Jofre, Harada, Olivares and Zarate?
Hello, thank you for the welcome. Yes i do have many stories to tell. When I was 15 instead of school I would wait for Stillmans gym to open. I would hang out there untill it was time to go home. Lou Stillman who new I should be in school but didn't want me walk the streets lets me in for nothing. I got the job of taking in the money from the paying customers. I think it was 25 or 50 cents. I got to know many great fighters. My favorite guy was Tony Janiero. The guy Lamotta destroyed. I was heartbroken from the beating he took. Jake Lamotta was unbelieveable. By far the toughest most durable fighter I ever saw.
But getting back to Raul Macias. Unless a fighter could hit like a mule he stood very little chance against Macias. Usually he threw very few punches in the beginning, just figuring out his opponent style and strategy. From there on it was all Macias. Not a heavy puncher 22 ko's in 41 wins but beautiful to watch. He was like the new teacher who comes to a class your having problems with and suddenly makes everything clear to you. He made you understand the sweet science. When I watched him it was like we were thinking the same thing.
As far as the other great bantemweights I really feel Macias would of beaten Fighing Harada and Elder Jofre as to me he would of figured them out by the third round. Ruben Olivares and Carlos Zarate would of been great fights only because of their power. When your fighing someone with a 80 & 90 percent ko record you have to be extremely careful. Remember they also would know Macias style. But all this is just my opinion. Don't know how many out there remember the days when there was one true champion in each division but that was really beautiful.

[Stonehands89]

There are counterarguments to what you say, but I'm not going to go down that path and make a debate of it. All I'll say is fair enough if you believe that. I haven't come to terms with what I believe on many ethical/meaning-of-life issues, despite devoting much time to it in study, and so I'll be silent on this issue.
Don't mind me. I live on the east coast -and the views expressed here are not endorsed in the People's Republic of Massachusetts believe me. I simply enjoy throwing shots at the dominant ideology.

Pea was an arrogant cunt. No doubt about it. But when it comes to casualness and nonchalance, you won't find a more casual and nonchalant customer than Pernell Whitaker. I think Pea's whole raison d'etre was to show how he could make a fool of fighters without trying. And no one did it better. His self confidence was incredible, no matter who was in front of him. Few fighters left an encounter with Whitaker being physically hurt, but by the same token, few left such an encounter without being totally humiliated.


Personally, I found his antics comedic, but I can also see how they would be annoying, especially if you did not buy into his persona to begin with.
Sure, although Pernell's "nonchalance" was feigned. He was very much into impressing himself first and foremost and the crowd. Pep demonstrated skill as a matter of course and to get out of the way. He demeaned himself (for running away to live to fight another day) more than his opponent. He didn't gloat about it -and that struck me as more honestly casual and nonchalant. When it comes to skill and flair, I don't necessarily put one over the other.

Southpaw's are pretty hard to catch, it might be hard to round them all up. Good luck with your endeavor :D.
My friend Sweet Pea seems to be offended. It's merely an age-old running joke in fight clubs and gyms over here.

[sweet_scientist]

Hello, thank you for the welcome. Yes i do have many stories to tell. When I was 15 instead of school I would wait for Stillmans gym to open. I would hang out there untill it was time to go home. Lou Stillman who new I should be in school but didn't want me walk the streets lets me in for nothing. I got the job of taking in the money from the paying customers. I think it was 25 or 50 cents. I got to know many great fighters. My favorite guy was Tony Janiero. The guy Lamotta destroyed. I was heartbroken from the beating he took. Jake Lamotta was unbelieveable. By far the toughest most durable fighter I ever saw.
But getting back to Raul Macias. Unless a fighter could hit like a mule he stood very little chance against Macias. Usually he threw very few punches in the beginning, just figuring out his opponent style and strategy. From there on it was all Macias. Not a heavy puncher 22 ko's in 41 wins but beautiful to watch. He was like the new teacher who comes to a class your having problems with and suddenly makes everything clear to you. He made you understand the sweet science. When I watched him it was like we were thinking the same thing.
As far as the other great bantemweights I really feel Macias would of beaten Fighing Harada and Elder Jofre as to me he would of figured them out by the third round. Ruben Olivares and Carlos Zarate would of been great fights only because of their power. When your fighing someone with a 80 & 90 percent ko record you have to be extremely careful. Remember they also would know Macias style. But all this is just my opinion. Don't know how many out there remember the days when there was one true champion in each division but that was really beautiful.

Thanks for sharing :good

I'll endeavour to get hold of some footage of him. As you can tell by my moniker, I'm certainly a fan of the sweet science.

[McGrain]

I like watching southpaws fight.

Anyway, been watching Buchanan on account of another thread and that boy deserves a mention in this thread. What a left hand, beautiful.

[pryorgatti]

No peak PBF ?

[Stonehands89]

I like watching southpaws fight.

Anyway, been watching Buchanan on account of another thread and that boy deserves a mention in this thread. What a left hand, beautiful.
Buchanan! He does deserve a mention. Leonard was also beautiful to watch and I love the way he threw shots -just smooth mechanics and rythym to spare. The Hagler fight was artistry of motion.

[Ted Spoon]

When you say 'most beautiful', Benny Leonard and Jose Napoles quickly link-up. Every time you watch them fight they show you things a trainer could never teach; both flawlessly creative and measured.

To a slightly lesser extent, Tony Canzoneri, whose effective see-saw movement, and encouraging low hands suckered his man into that range finding looping left and show-stopping deadly cross.

And then there is James Toney. However his life styled him to the fans distaste, that emotionless face belied his extraordinary focus and vision in the ring. He looked like was bored with boxing, as if it was a game he had completely mastered and taunted it's simplistic dynamic as he rolled and slipped in irresistible uppercuts to his drowning victims.

[The Predator]

Hi everyone, I´m new to this forum but I hope it´s okay if I jump in and give my favourites as well.
Ali before he was stripped of his title. The fight against Cleveland Williams! Magic.
Sugar Ray Leonard, these two are in my opinion the most classy boxers you can see. I haven´t seen that much of Sugar Ray Robinson but what i´ve heard he was outstanding so perhaps he will be up there as well when I´ve seen more fights with him.
All the best from a rainy Sweden
The Predator

[Robbi]

Hi everyone, I´m new to this forum but I hope it´s okay if I jump in and give my favourites as well.
Ali before he was stripped of his title. The fight against Cleveland Williams! Magic.
Sugar Ray Leonard, these two are in my opinion the most classy boxers you can see. I haven´t seen that much of Sugar Ray Robinson but what i´ve heard he was outstanding so perhaps he will be up there as well when I´ve seen more fights with him.
All the best from a rainy Sweden
The Predator

Welcome aboard. Check out Pernell Whitaker and Roberto Duran. You may have seen both before, but thought I'd mention them.

Whitaker was a very slick defensive boxer. He was at his most effective on the outside, but could fight superbly within range and inside. Very quick hands, and a lovely jab out the southpaw stance. Fluid and beautiful on the eye.

[ron u.k.]

to me it's sugar ray robinson,beautiful mover,even warming up in the ring before a fight it's just poetry in motion,just a natural loose flowing athlete.

[Holmes' Jab]

1. Whitaker
2. Robinson
3. Napoles
4. Ross
5. Hearns

[markedwardscott]

I vote for Hearns--always on verge of kayo or being kayoed

[pryorgatti]

5 greats to watch also: Charles, Moore, H.Johnson, Conn, Tunney

[fists of fury]

This is such a subjective thing...and for me it depends upon mood as well.

I love watching Joe Louis throw those precision combinations, I love watching Arguello's laser-guided right hands, I love watching a Chavez left hook to the short ribs. Duran at his peak turned aggression into an art form. Tyson for me did the same in the 80's.
Hearns either as a boxer or trying to bomb a guy out of there was simply magnificent.
Obviously a SRR is good to watch, but I'd have loved to have seen him at 147 which sadly is in sparse supply.

I've never been one for pure, defensive boxers. A guy skittering around the ring throwing out little more than a jab doesn't do it for me.

[martin0792]

i am surprised that nobody has mentioned oscar. when in form he was beautiful to watch. his left hand was perhaps the best left ever

Oscar De La Hoya in my opinion, a real pleasure to watch perform. There is nothing better in Boxing than watching the Golden Boy's left hand go to work.