Leonard vs. Duran--Stomach Cramps?

[cross_trainer]

Discuss.

[McGrain]

According to the Hands of Stone Bio of Duran, what he ate before that fight was...ridiculous. I beleive he had some difficulties with his gut, for sure.

But I don't care. Boxing is a composite sport. If he couldn't continue because of what he had to eat pre-fight then he deserves to lose. Mental discipline counts for what - 51% of this sport? More?

[The Kurgan]

It's quite apparent that Duran was in 100% condition, and simply lacks mental toughness. Leonard would always beat him, unless Leonard fought a fight that led him to lose.

[McGrain]

Leonard would always beat him, unless Leonard fought a fight that led him to lose.

I'm not actually 100% convinced of that. 12 or 15 rounds is a long time to be in with focused Duran, even if you are Leonard fighting smart. Shame we never got to find out.

[Manassa]

Here is my take on things:

In the second fight, Duran may or may not have had stomach problems (be it cramps, indigestion, whatever). Whether or not his excuses were just that - excuses - is irrelevant, because I think we all know Duran was not in the best shape for that fight anyway, neither mentally nor physically.

I believe the first Duran-Leonard fight was by far the most significant and telling because they were both at or close to their best. However, I also think Leonard benefitted from the experience and slightly improved afterwards; therefore, Duran-Leonard at their absolute peaks is a toss up.

[surreal deal]

It's quite apparent that Duran was in 100% condition, and simply lacks mental toughness. Leonard would always beat him, unless Leonard fought a fight that led him to lose.
that thinking goes for most fighters;'A would always beat B,unless A fought a fight that led him to lose.'moreover,why is a bad gameplan acceptable but not bad conditioning?And Duran was in bad shape!100% condition?thats absurd.Even leonard and dundee would laugh at that.

[My dinner with Conteh]

No. Totally unfit and unprepared: yes.

[Rattler]

It was a bad case of spicy frijoles.

[istmeno]

:goodin Beyond the Glory - Roberto Duran, Leonard himself said something like that they wanted a rematch as fast as possible because they knew of Duran´s habits, like partying, and that it was unlikely that he would be in top-shape in the rematch.


not only in beyond the glory, but he also said it in the playboy interview.

[My dinner with Conteh]

This is a settled issue. Duran was hospitalized after the fight for severe abdominal pain. His medical records were released to the state boxing board which, upon examination of them, released his purse. Case closed.


Shep Peasants. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

You're shooting blanks, Conteh.


You brought Shep up. Check out his quotes in the recent Duran book for a start.

[Sonny's jab]

All I know is that Duran quit. Leonard won.

And the fight was shit. Complete garbage.

[The Kurgan]

I'm not actually 100% convinced of that. 12 or 15 rounds is a long time to be in with focused Duran, even if you are Leonard fighting smart. Shame we never got to find out.

You're not making sense. If Leonard fights smart enough to have a winning strategy and execute it, Duran CANNOT WIN.

[The Kurgan]

that thinking goes for most fighters;'A would always beat B,unless A fought a fight that led him to lose.'moreover,why is a bad gameplan acceptable but not bad conditioning?And Duran was in bad shape!100% condition?thats absurd.Even leonard and dundee would laugh at that.

Duran was in arguably better condition than the first bout. His biceps looked larger.

[My dinner with Conteh]

See, My Dinner with Kotex, you're confused. Pepping It brought up Shep Pleasants.


Ha ha. Fair enough. Honestly, things wouldn't be the same around here if you left. :bbb

[My dinner with Conteh]

Anyway...more from Pep's mate Shep:


“when I walked in Duran had his whole entourage surrounding him. He was as bright as a bullet. There was no distress hovering over the man. He was sitting on the bed but wasn’t in hospital garb. I think he went to hospital as a public relations move and the town had figured that out. You don’t just quit a fight and head back to the hotel and then decide to come to the hospital.”

[My dinner with Conteh]

Duran was shitting himself in the fucking ring. That's why he quit. Leonard said it smelled like a sewer. Leonard called him poopypants from that moment on.


No matter how many times you post that it always makes me chuckle.

[McGrain]

You're not making sense. If Leonard fights smart enough to have a winning strategy and execute it, Duran CANNOT WIN.

Your original post seemed to suggest that Leonard would win unless he fought stupid. That's what I don't agree with.

[My dinner with Conteh]

duran said he that before the fight he felt hungry. so he ate a hot steak and drank a cold glass of water.....and that caused the craps, so he said.....


He was full of crap in more ways than one. He was crapping so much he went to a party at the hotel for most of the night, until someone said "Listen shitty arse, you won't get paid if you don't go down the hospital and say 'ow ow ow me hurty tummy'".

[The Kurgan]

Your original post seemed to suggest that Leonard would win unless he fought stupid. That's what I don't agree with.

It really wasn't working at that level of subtlety.

As for my serious opinion on the fight, I'm not familiar with the background to the fight, but it was highly uncharacteristic of Duran to quit, especially in such an undignified manner.

[castle]

an article by Barry McGuigan in the paer at the weekend


THE BOXING Hall of Fame in Canastota has at last opened its doors to one of the finest fighters of all time, and my personal favourite, Roberto Duran.

The red carpet would have been out for old Hands of Stone years ago had he quit when he was ahead, but then Duran always did things his own way. There was none more attractive. He was one of the most enthralling fighters you could clap eyes on. Nobody captivated me the way he did.

Duran was unique. He could throw punches from every angle. He would slide into punching range, hit opponents with a battery of punches in a couple of seconds then slide out again. Every punch had destruction written all over it.

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From the back of the hall you would think he was taking heavy blows himself, the way his head appeared to snap back. The fact is he moved his head brilliantly.

Opponents would throw a right hand and he would turn his head a fraction before the shot landed.

The spray would go everywhere, flying off that mop of raven black hair, but the sting had gone from the punch. He was so good he could do the speed ball with his head. I saw him do it at Gleeson's New York back in 1983. Incredible.

He had a voracious appetite. He sank a gallon of soup the moment he got off the scales at the weigh-in for the second Ray Leonard fight and ate steak an hour and a half before the bout. That explained in part the 'no mas' incident in the rematch with Ray Leonard in 1980 when he quit towards the end of the eighth round. He was cramping up so badly.

I'm not taking anything away from Leonard. He was brilliant that night. Duran just did not help himself.

He was outstanding as a lightweight. The only man who beat him was Estaban de Jesus, but he came back to avenge that defeat twice. The rematch was just unbelievable.

I was alerted to his talent even before he beat Ken Buchanan for the world lightweight title at the Garden in 1972. My dad used to get old Betamax cassettes sent over from the States. They were poor, grainy copies, but Duran still took your breath away. We met for the first time in New York in 1983 in a Cuban restaurant on 37th Street. I had gone to the Press conference before his Marvin Hagler fight at the Felt Forum, but did not get near him.

His people invited me to the restaurant that evening. He was wearing a light blue suit. He was a fabulous looking guy. I told him that I named my dog Duran, after him. I didn't know whether he was going to punch me.

He threw his arms around me and gave me a big kiss. I then sat at the table with him and watched him eat three chickens. You could see why he battled with the weight. It reminded me of a medieval feast. He just chomped through the chicken legs then threw the bone away. He fought the way he ate, like an animal.

Hagler edged a brilliant fight. Duran then lost to Thomas Hearns, only to come back five years later in the Ring Magazine fight of the year to win the middleweight title against Iran Barkley.

What a fighter. What a man.

[Stonehands89]

These are the facts, and your feeling about the whole affair is understandable. I hated it, too.

But, see, Sonny's Jab, what Leonard fans/Duran haters want is not the facts but a dual purpose myth that goes like this: "A weak-spirited bully was psyched out by a ring artist who made the bully quit by humiliating him."

In their minds, this myth erases the fact that their hero was throughly dominated in Montreal. Having Leonard regain the championship because Duran was sick robs from them of the satisfaction of a complete reveral of Montreal. This is the source of the necessity for myth making. If they can have Leonard defeating Duran with his special mental powers then they feel they have negated Montreal, where Duran defeated Leonard with his special physical powers.

It's a classic myth model - David and Goliath - where the weaker guy uses his brain to outsmart the stronger fellow.

So it's not about the facts. Only delusional people ignore facts. It's about why Duran quit. And the facts here are uncontroversial, albeit widely ignored. The media continues to this day to write that Duran quitting is "inexplicable." Leonard and his fans, of course, continue to claim that Leonard made Duran quit (silly, I know, but that's their angle). The facts show us that he was sick.

So we now know both the facts and the reason for them.

.... other, more illuminating facts were also attested to. For instance, Duran didn't run out of the ring afterwards like a truly sick man. Later. Duran was partying -completely unphased by the disgrace. Thirdly, he went to the hospital much later. Fourthly, he was seen in the hospital room surrounded by friends and laughing and guess what else he was doing... he was stuffing his face.

Duran was out of shape, made a decision that was supremely stupid and based on frustration. Keen minds may argue whether that frustration was due to Leonard's making faces, showing more mobility, and throwing bolo punches -or Duran's frustration with his own inability to get to him due to poor conditioning. I don't believe that he was so ill that he had to quit.

The inference I take from it all, is that Duran's people, realizing what he had done, strategized a way for him to salvage his reputation. So they brought him to the hospital. It was a bluff -and the media didn't investigate it too closely.

There seems to be too camps here: One is that Leonard's great boxing skill and decision to use the correct strategy against Duran is what made Duran quit. The other is that Duran was at death's door and had to quit for his own health... I reject both and opt for a third, which is partly described above.

[Sonny's jab]

It was very unprofessional of Duran to eat all that food the afternoon of the fight.
It seems to have cost him the fight.
That should have been another great fight, but was completely ruined by Duran's undisciplined gluttony.

Then again, crazy characters like Duran - warts and all - are part of what makes boxing so interesting.

[Stonehands89]

How does a truly sick man run out of a boxing ring?

By the eighth Duran was in serious distress. The waves subsided in the dressing room, then came back on him. He was doubled over after midnight and they took him to the emergency room.

He was in serious distress? It didn't look that way. He walked around the ring, hugged Leonard, then walked out. He could have fought on. There is film of him in the dressing room and he was nervy and embarrassed. I just don't buy that he quit because of cramps.

Your post is conjecture. Mine is as well, but it seems more likely to me considering many factors.

[Raggamuffin]

Maybe he had cramps but SRL fought a intelligent fight
He frustrated Duran with his slickness ans flashy combo's
He was just to speedy for him

[NickHudson]

Yep, I would agree with this. The ability to prepare correctly is part of any sport.

Duran made a mistake with his preparation, perhaps believing the hype surrounding him for the best part of a decade, and paid sorely for it.

According to the Hands of Stone Bio of Duran, what he ate before that fight was...ridiculous. I beleive he had some difficulties with his gut, for sure.

But I don't care. Boxing is a composite sport. If he couldn't continue because of what he had to eat pre-fight then he deserves to lose. Mental discipline counts for what - 51% of this sport? More?

[GuyMcGuffin]

Just an interesting side note that people either forget or never knew in the first place, Leonard was a 3-2 favorite in the rematch.

[smokin joe]

ESPN.com: What does New Orleans mean to you? Duran: When I fought Leonard [there], I was just passing by. But then I went to Mardi Gras. It was like being in Vegas. People were having fun. ESPN.com: If you could have one chance to do one of your fights over again, which fight would it be and why? Duran:
If I could, I would fight that first Leonard fight again. ESPN.com: The first Leonard fight? Why? Duran: Because I would beat him more convincingly [Duran won by unanimous decision in June 1980]. [As for] The second one, I didn't have enough time to train

durans espn interview

[jyuza]

Well, I do know the story about the stomach cramps etc etc.
My take on this thing is that Duran wasn't ready for the fight. Period.

Leonard did very well, convincing a Duran in fiesta mode to fight five months after their first encounter where Duran looked so perfect and so unbeatable.

By the way, tomorrow will be the 27 year birthday of the first fight in Montreal.
I will watch the first fight again (arguably one of the best fight ever).

[cpnasty]

From what I heard Duran had diarrhea. Nobody alive would be willing to have to shit in the ring.

[warchild]

It was a combination of three things IMO....

1. Duran ate too much after the weigh-in and probably did have some abdominal pain.

2. Duran was frustrated, not because he was being out-classed, but because Leonard wasn't doing anything even close to boxing and the crowd was buying it....being undertrained and fatigued could have added to the frustration.

3. Duran believed that if he refused to continue, the fans and the media would turn on Leonard for using the tactics that he did, and a rubbermatch would be forthcoming.

All this was Duran's fault.

Having stated the above, I don't think that Leonard was winning the match by much, and it was still very winable for Duran....he shouldn't have surrendered....I don't think that Duran viewed it as surrendering at the time, but that's what he did.

[Bummy Davis]

Dundee gets a lot of credit for this one, Duran was a party animal and after his win in june, he was drinking and hanging out in N.Y. club Victor's Cafe a well known COKE dealer hangout, Dundee insisted on a Nov. rematch and if Duran did not agree they would take there huge American Leonard $$$$$ into a Hearns fight. Duran agreed but after a summer of burning himself out could not get into the proper condition by Nov. and knew he was ill prepared that evenning Thus No -Mas and another reason Angelo Dundee was a value

[smokin joe]

Dundee gets a lot of credit for this one, Duran was a party animal and after his win in june, he was drinking and hanging out in N.Y. club Victor's Cafe a well known COKE dealer hangout, Dundee insisted on a Nov. rematch and if Duran did not agree they would take there huge American Leonard $$$$$ into a Hearns fight. Duran agreed but after a summer of burning himself out could not get into the proper condition by Nov. and knew he was ill prepared that evenning Thus No -Mas and another reason Angelo Dundee was a value

exactly, duran had to lose 50 lbs in 7 weeks, his manager said if he didnt get him the money now, he wouldnt of got it at all, cause he was so out of control

[JohnThomas1]

Dundee gets a lot of credit for this one, Duran was a party animal and after his win in june, he was drinking and hanging out in N.Y. club Victor's Cafe a well known COKE dealer hangout, Dundee insisted on a Nov. rematch and if Duran did not agree they would take there huge American Leonard $$$$$ into a Hearns fight. Duran agreed but after a summer of burning himself out could not get into the proper condition by Nov. and knew he was ill prepared that evenning Thus No -Mas and another reason Angelo Dundee was a value

I've always thought Mike Trainer played a prominent role too.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've always thought Mike Trainer played a prominent role too.


It was mostly all Trainer.

[META5]

I've always thought Mike Trainer played a prominent role too.

I await the decibels of wailing and teeth grinding about that pesky son of a gun, Leonard, not giving Duran a chance to come into the fight in peak shape and how he had to use this advantage to get the win.

It will be beautiful music to the boxing ears, because how quickly these people forget that Duran did the exact same thing to DeJesus, unless I'm mistaken ...

[My dinner with Conteh]

I await the decibels of wailing and teeth grinding about that pesky son of a gun, Leonard, not giving Duran a chance to come into the fight in peak shape and how he had to use this advantage to get the win.

It will be beautiful music to the boxing ears, because how quickly these people forget that Duran did the exact same thing to DeJesus, unless I'm mistaken ...


You're not. Benitez snr even asked to put the fight back a month but was turned down flat. Hey, Duran was the champ he calls the shots....just like in 1980. :huh

[META5]

You're not. Benitez snr even asked to put the fight back a month but was turned down flat. Hey, Duran was the champ he calls the shots....just like in 1980. :huh

So, basically, it's alright when Duran does it cos he's Roberto Duran, a living legend, but when it's done to Duran, it's a heinous crime and bad sportsmanship, fraudulent, dishonest and cowardly? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight ... I now see how this equal playing field thing works. :good

[JohnThomas1]

It was mostly all Trainer.

Yeah, i know :D

[JohnThomas1]

I await the decibels of wailing and teeth grinding about that pesky son of a gun, Leonard, not giving Duran a chance to come into the fight in peak shape and how he had to use this advantage to get the win.

It will be beautiful music to the boxing ears, because how quickly these people forget that Duran did the exact same thing to DeJesus, unless I'm mistaken ...

Exactly, check, and mate!

[JohnThomas1]

So, basically, it's alright when Duran does it cos he's Roberto Duran, a living legend, but when it's done to Duran, it's a heinous crime and bad sportsmanship, fraudulent, dishonest and cowardly? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight ... I now see how this equal playing field thing works. :good

Good to be around peeps telling it like it is :yep

[jyuza]

Exactly, check, and mate!

:D

[Sonny's jab]

The New York Times, November 27, 1980, Thursday, Section 2, Page 7, Column 1:


DURAN DESERVES TO BE BELIEVED
By Dave Anderson

NEW ORLEANS BY its nature and its history, boxing inspires intrigue. It's easy to manipulate a fight. One of the boxers can do it. So can the promoter or the officials. And any time a boxer betrays what is expected of him, the suspicion is that he took a dive, or he took the money and ran.

With some boxers, that is understandable. Almost expected. But not with Roberto Duran, who strolled away in surrender from Sugar Ray Leonard in the eighth round of their World Boxing Council welterweight title bout because of what he later described as stomach cramps and what his Panamanian physician, Dr. Orlando Nunez, called acute abdominal pains from eating unwisely.

That explanation might be too vague to appease the cynics. But unless evidence to the contrary surfaces, Roberto Duran deserves to be believed.

For more than a decade, Roberto Duran has been the noblest savage in boxing, the sneering street fighter from Panama with the hands of stone. For him to decide to relinquish the welterweight title he so cherished, he had to be frightened by what he felt within his body.

Some people find it difficult to accept that because Roberto Duran was unmarked. If he had been bleeding from several cuts, the butchers in boxing would have hailed his courage. If he had been blinded by a closed eye, the butchers would have gloried in his valor. Instead he chose to surrender on his feet. But only he knew how he felt inside. And, from, his record, his explanation should be enough.

Other cynics, remember, did not accept that J. R. Richard, the Houston Astros pitcher, was ill until he had a stroke....

At his best Roberto Duran would not have surrendered so meekly. At least not judging by how he acted in the only other fight he ever lost - a unanimous 10-round nontitle decision to Esteban DeJesus of Puerto Rico in Madison Square Garden Nov. 17, 1972.

Five months earlier that year, Roberto Duran had won the world lightweight title from Ken Buchanan of Scotland, but he did not bother to train hard for DeJesus in their over-the-weight bout. Knocked down by a left hook in the first round, Roberto Duran was booed for punching DeJesus after the bell ended that round. He later was warned for hitting on the break and for punching low. After the eighth round, both punched furiously after the bell, and Roberto Duran shoved DeJesus into his own corner.

If he had been at his best Tuesday night, that's the only way Roberto Duran would have gone down - snarling and clawing. For him not to be snarling and clawing in that desperate situation, there had to be something wrong with him.


''He's the type of individual,'' his 81-year-old trainer, Ray Arcel, said, ''who would rather die in the ring than lose a fight."


Good find.
Dave Anderson wrote a very reasonable article there. It's hard to argue with the sheer reasonableness of it.

[My dinner with Conteh]

The opinions of:
Eleta + Henriquez + Arcel + Brown = No stomach cramps. Let that be the end of all the commotion. :good

[Sonny's jab]

The opinions of:
Eleta + Henriquez + Arcel + Brown = No stomach cramps. Let that be the end of all the commotion. :good

Does Roberto Duran not deserve the benefit of the doubt ?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Does Roberto Duran not deserve the benefit of the doubt ?



What exactly do you think someone who quits in the middle of the fight is going to say? Of course, he's going to makeup some sort of illness. They'd have lynched him in Panama if they knew he quit because he thought he wouldn't win. His cornermen, manager and translator all said the 'cramps' was fabricated. Of course, he probably felt a bit ill from what he ate, i'm not disputing that, however, he didn't have to quit at exactly that moment in that round.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Not when you have to erase the memory of Duran beating the shit out of Leonard in Montreal.


Yeah, it was such a severe beating that Leonard was installed as favourite as soon as the rematch was announced.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Speculation. That's what you have.

But the facts are that he quit because he was sick and he went to the hospital, and his doctor and the doctors at Baptist confirmed he was sick.

Why do you keep refusing to accept the facts? This is really not a controversial matter. The answer is known.



The answer is known. And that is that ALL of his corner did not know why he quit. Simple as that. Accept reality. He went to the hospital about SIX hours after the fight. Yeah, some agony he was in. If I ever have severe stomach cramps I hope they're the type Duran had. :D


He could have been ill at 3am...after all the good food he gorged and drink imbibed at his party that night. Like your mate Shep said "you don't just go back to your hotel for hours and then go to the hospital." :good

[Sonny's jab]

What exactly do you think someone who quits in the middle of the fight is going to say? Of course, he's going to makeup some sort of illness. They'd have lynched him in Panama if they knew he quit because he thought he wouldn't win. His cornermen, manager and translator all said the 'cramps' was fabricated. Of course, he probably felt a bit ill from what he ate, i'm not disputing that, however, he didn't have to quit at exactly that moment in that round.

The point is, he quit.
And we all agree there's likely a reason for him quitting.

Duran gave a reason.
What makes your reason - or anyone's reason - any more credible than his ?

Given his history as a fighter why is it more likely that he "quit because he thought he wouldn't win" ?
It's not likely that he'd just think "I wont win" if he's healthy. That's extremely unlikely.

I actually think the fight being FIXED is more likely if you want to take the cynical approach. Even great fighters have been known to throw fights for money, but great fighters by definition dont just suddenly think "I wont win" and quit - there'd have to be a whole load of pain to make a great fighter quit.

But it's unfair to be so cynical. There's no evidence Duran was involved in a fix.
There's no evidence that Duran had a quitter-mentality - in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
There seems to be some evidence that he ate a stupid amount of food before the fight.

Has Duran ever withdrawn his claim that he was suffering stomach cramps ?

[Sonny's jab]

The answer is known. And that is that ALL of his corner did not know why he quit. Simple as that. Accept reality. He went to the hospital about SIX hours after the fight. Yeah, some agony he was in. If I ever have severe stomach cramps I hope they're the type Duran had. :D


He could have been ill at 3am...after all the good food he gorged and drink imbibed at his party that night. Like your mate Shep said "you don't just go back to your hotel for hours and then go to the hospital." :good

I dont think his corner are the most objective people to be able to judge Duran's actions.
They were emotionally and financially involved.
They may have thought "stomach cramps" was a lame excuse. It's often hard to empathize with someone who's saying they are sick. Especially when you are overcome by your disappointment in them.

A lot of people wont go to hospital until they really fear for their lives. It's not unusual to wait six hours or a lot more before checking in.

It's easy to be sceptical. But Duran's story of stomach cramps seems no less likely that all these allegations about him lying.

[My dinner with Conteh]

A lot of people wont go to hospital until they really fear for their lives. It's not unusual to wait six hours or a lot more before checking in.


Most of them don't go to a party for six hours, eating and drinking. :good



Why are they not objective? By being 'financially' involved then they'd have more likely gone with the 'cramps' story as Duran's purse was initially withheld. However, they're perplexed. Watch the fight. They have no idea what Duran's doing.


Here's a tip: when in doubt- watch the damn thing yourself. Always works for me. :bbb

[ChrisPontius]

I can't believe this is still being discussed.
I suspect MWDC is training here to become immune to whining as preparation for hard moments with his young offspring :think


Duran simply quit because he was being embarressed and didn't think he could beat Leonard when undertrained and thought he'd get an immediate rematch in which he would give his best. Simple as that.

[Sonny's jab]

Duran simply quit because he was being embarressed and didn't think he could beat Leonard when undertrained and thought he'd get an immediate rematch in which he would give his best. Simple as that.

How do you know ?

[ChrisPontius]

I used to be quite a fanatic soccer player. There was this defender that i always used to pass by (as attacker) but at a certain moment i slacked, stopped training, out of shape , etc. Several months later i played again and the very same defender was stopping me every single time, making me look amateurish at times. The idea that someone who you beat when prepared and in shape makes you look foolish when you're underprepared makes you arrogant and makes your ego think "fuck it, i don't need this, i'll get him when im in shape" and quit.

Can i be 100% sure that the same thing happened to Duran? No.

But given the circumstances, having already beat Duran, being out of shape, the way he waves his arm to say "fuck it, i don't need this" (Duran said this himself: "i gave him an immediate rematch, i thought i would get one too"), the way he didn't even seem to care when Leonard hit him after he quit, the fact that he went to eat and party first only to check in at the hospital very late at night after the party, to be released after a short night there..... makes me pretty sure that it was the reason he quit.


Oh, and i don't doubt that poor Duran had tummy cwamps. Nor do i doubt that that was put forward as the reason to his blatant quitting job, because the reason "i didn't bother trying being in this bad shape and wanted to take him in a rubbermatch" would've made him lose all his fans. I don't find it a coincidence that in all the 100 something fights he had, the stomach cramps got the better of him when he was being embarressed while out of shape by someone he already beat.

[UpWithEvil]

Duran was hospitalized after the fight for severe abdominal pain.

Menstrual cramps?

His medical records were released to the state boxing board which, upon examination of them, released his purse.

Duran carried a purse? Yep, gotta be menstrual cramps.

[Stonehands89]

Duran was unprepared for DeJesus, but he gutted it out. There is no reason to think that Duran quits when unprepared.

All the evidence says one thing: Duran quit because he was sick.

Correction: Common sense, as well as the reliable evidence and objective testimony says one thing: Duran quit because he was frustrated -with himself for not preparing properly and for thinking only about $$$, and with the prospect of losing to Leonard of all people.

... and that is from the self-proclaimed biggest Duran fan on ESB: ME.

I love the guy. I love Elvis too, but as he got older his discipline deteriorated and he abused himself -to death. His movies sucked too.

Duran and Elvis deserve honest fans.

[UpWithEvil]

And nobody knows ridiculous like Perfesser Clownshoes!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
"Shhhh! Don't tell anyone I'm Revolver!"

[Sonny's jab]

I used to be quite a fanatic soccer player. There was this defender that i always used to pass by (as attacker) but at a certain moment i slacked, stopped training, out of shape , etc. Several months later i played again and the very same defender was stopping me every single time, making me look amateurish at times. The idea that someone who you beat when prepared and in shape makes you look foolish when you're underprepared makes you arrogant and makes your ego think "fuck it, i don't need this, i'll get him when im in shape" and quit.

Can i be 100% sure that the same thing happened to Duran? No.

But given the circumstances, having already beat Duran, being out of shape, the way he waves his arm to say "fuck it, i don't need this" (Duran said this himself: "i gave him an immediate rematch, i thought i would get one too"), the way he didn't even seem to care when Leonard hit him after he quit, the fact that he went to eat and party first only to check in at the hospital very late at night after the party, to be released after a short night there..... makes me pretty sure that it was the reason he quit.

OK, you compare yourself on the football pitch to Roberto Duran in a boxing ring to make a point. You compare your own mentality to his, and I can understand the reasoning. That's all well and good but it's not a solid argument.
What you say makes sense, except for the fact that Roberto Duran also gives a reason and I see no reason why he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
It's not like he's a fighter who habitually pulled out of fights or quit or got stopped and always had an excuse.

I could recount a time I ate too much, and was out and suddenly I really needed to take a shit, and I was getting acute pain every few minutes that would stop me dead in my tracks for a second and I knew the last thing I needed to do was physical exertion. I could say Duran's actions are not at all out of line with a man with abdominal pain/stomach/bowel trouble.

Maybe Duran did go eat and party before going to hospital that night. No one disputes the fact that his ridiculous eating habits maybe caused the whole thing. Duran was obviously stupid with it.

Oh, and i don't doubt that poor Duran had tummy cwamps. Nor do i doubt that that was put forward as the reason to his blatant quitting job, because the reason "i didn't bother trying being in this bad shape and wanted to take him in a rubbermatch" would've made him lose all his fans.

Actually, isn't that the usual excuse most boxers give without losing their fans ?
"My heart wasn't in it tonight, I didn't train right, I was out of shape, my mind wasn't right. I apologise to my fans and promise all my fans I will be back to seek revenge"
I actually think Duran would have been given an EASIER time if he'd just said that, because people are so sceptical of illness/injury claims.


I don't find it a coincidence that in all the 100 something fights he had, the stomach cramps got the better of him when he was being embarressed while out of shape by someone he already beat.


I see no "coincidence". I guess you have to be looking for it to see it.
I dont think he was being embarrassed until he quit, the quitting was the embarrassing bit. Leonard was clowning a bit and scored a few pot-shots but I could equally say it's Duran's illness that allows Leonard to clown and score pot-shots. I guess even you would agree that it was at least Duran being "out of shape".
But you reject the "stomach pains" excuse.

There seems no strong reason NOT to give him the benefit of the doubt on his claims.

Of course, none of it changes the fact that Duran got beat fair and square.
I just dont see why everyone insists on painting Duran as a liar and someone who quit easily on this night. He was a great enough fighter for me to give him the benefit of the doubt over the stomach cramps excuse.

[ChrisPontius]

Actually, isn't that the usual excuse most boxers give without losing their fans ?
"My heart wasn't in it tonight, I didn't train right, I was out of shape, my mind wasn't right. I apologise to my fans and promise all my fans I will be back to seek revenge"

I actually think Duran would have been given an EASIER time if he'd just said that, because people are so sceptical of illness/injury claims.



No, that's the excuse that their fans make for them. Tyson was shot past prison, Holyfield had a heart ailment/shoulder injury/steroid side effects/whatever. There is a big difference between the excuse that fans put forward and the fighter himself does.
When a fighter blatantly quits and says "well i didn't care because i was in bad shape", this will make him lose tons of supporters, even if the supporters would've made the same excuses otherwise. Fans are not very logic most of the time, as you can see on the general forum. They make 180 degree turnes in their opinion of a fighter with every new fight.


I see no "coincidence". I guess you have to be looking for it to see it.

Explain that to me.
Tell me, in which of Duran's other fights was he embarrassed the way Leonard did, on national TV?



I dont think he was being embarrassed until he quit, the quitting was the embarrassing bit.


Oh come on. That's ridiculous. Everyone remembers Leonard making that windmill motion with his right, then easily nailing Duran with a hard jab. He was doing the shuffle in front of Duran. He nailed durran with some combinations and got off the ropes before Duran could land his left hook, in fact he was made to miss amatuerishly.
Put yourself in Durans shoes. Your opponent is making stupid gestures, makes you miss and he hits you in return. You've boxed yourself, right? Then you will know how embarrassing and frustrating it is when your opponent is not only outclassing you in that you can't hit him and he can hit you, but is also making a fool out of you. Not to mention the extra frustration because you already beat him when you were in shape.



Leonard was clowning a bit and scored a few pot-shots but I could equally say it's Duran's illness that allows Leonard to clown and score pot-shots. I guess even you would agree that it was at least Duran being "out of shape".

Sure, i never denied that Duran was out of shape.
And yes, probably that's why Leonard was able to clown.

But the point is not WHY Leonard was able to clown, the point is that he was clowning and embarrassing Duran, taking away his will to fight.
Maybe it was his illness, maybe not. All of that came only after the fight.

When you watch the fight, you'll see an out of shape Duran missing, not being able to reach Leonard, throwing a 1-2 when Leonard simply backs up, missing a left hook while Leonard is already 90 degrees away, and then he quits. Did you hear the reporters say during round 1-8 "wow, Duran is really looking like an ill man in there" ?
Did you see Duran rush out of the ring after he quit to take a big dump? No, he stayed in there for quite some time and wasn't showing any signs of illness whatsoever.

His cornermen, as MWDC pointed out, all thought otherwise as well.


But you reject the "stomach pains" excuse.

There seems no strong reason NOT to give him the benefit of the doubt on his claims.

Of course, none of it changes the fact that Duran got beat fair and square.
I just dont see why everyone insists on painting Duran as a liar and someone who quit easily on this night. He was a great enough fighter for me to give him the benefit of the doubt over the stomach cramps excuse.

Like i said before, i don't doubt that he could have had some stomach cramps or whatever. But so what? You're in there for the championship of the world. You think Ali had no trouble pain in his abdomal region against Frazier, not to mention his hips? I didn't see him quit. And it's not like Duran was wobbling around from the pain. To me it looked like an out of shape and very frustrated man, maybe he had some sickness, but not to the extend that it legitmates a quitting job.


Next time his camp should reach a little deeper in the pocket and at least produce a shoulder injury or something when going to the hospital after some partying and eating.
I mean for fucks sake, how many fighters in history have quit because they had "stomach cramps"???



By the way, i may sound a bit harsh here. For clarity: i think Duran proved his heart plenty of times just like for instance Liston and Vitali did, BUT, some of the excuses being put forward or straightout pathetic. But in the end it does put them a category below a Marciano in the heart department.

[JohnThomas1]

And nobody knows ridiculous like Perfesser Clownshoes!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
"Shhhh! Don't tell anyone I'm Revolver!"

:lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

I mean for fucks sake, how many fighters in history have quit because they had "stomach cramps"???


Honestly, you have to ask these people- would Carmen Basilio have walked off like that? Or Ali? etc etc.

[Duodenum]

Al "Blue" Lewis TKO 10 Muhammad Ali. (Ali: "I had to take a piss!")

SRL hit Duran with a bolo windmill in Montreal, and it didn't matter.

To me, Duran's most embarrassing performance on live television was against Kirkland Laing.

Fact is, Duran ate like a pig after the weigh-in for New Orleans (a useful advisory to anybody who's never tried Cajun cuisine), and suddenly got seized by a momentary case of the shits. Duran's major mistake in New Orleans was wearing the white trunks instead of the black trunks SRL had on. If he had on the black trunks, he could have taken a mid ring dump without severely discoloring his pants. (Roberto's other mistake was not wearing Depends diapers underneath his attire.)

Duran should have just let go of his holdings. SRL would have run screaming from the ring, or slipped on Duran's poo, and been counted out. (At least then, Duran wouldn't have embarrassed himself....much.)

[Stonehands89]

Ridiculous post, Stonehands.

--of course it is, because you couldn't possibly bring yourself to see things honestly or rationally. Your argument is based on naive acceptance of unreliable sources and idiotic assumptions that those who reject the medical excuse are 'Leonard lovers'.

Well, Duran is my favorite fighter ever and I'm telling you that your argument is naive.

Duran made a regrettable, impulsive decision that night and deserves to be forgiven due to his many, many subsequent redemptions. Making excuses and bashing Leonard fans is not the way to go.

[Sonny's jab]

No, that's the excuse that their fans make for them. Tyson was shot past prison, Holyfield had a heart ailment/shoulder injury/steroid side effects/whatever. There is a big difference between the excuse that fans put forward and the fighter himself does.
When a fighter blatantly quits and says "well i didn't care because i was in bad shape", this will make him lose tons of supporters, even if the supporters would've made the same excuses otherwise. Fans are not very logic most of the time, as you can see on the general forum. They make 180 degree turnes in their opinion of a fighter with every new fight.


Well, ok, let's say Duran would have lost lots of supporters. It doesn't mean he lied to prevent that from happening. If he was lying then you have a reason for him lying, but that's after you've accused him of lying.
The starting premise "It's a lie" is what I object to.


Explain that to me.
Tell me, in which of Duran's other fights was he embarrassed the way Leonard did, on national TV?


Well, I'm coming from the angle that he had stomach cramps. I'm not looking for ways to make it look like he did not have stomach cramps. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Witnesses say he ate a ton of food an hour before the fight, so where should I see a "coincidence".
Duran was an idiot if it's true.
But I'm not gonna say, "Funny how he got stomach cramps when getting "embarrassed" by Leonard, only time on national TV" ....

I'm more inclined to say, "What does he expect ?! Eating all that food" .... I'm not surprised he had a problem with his insides, in fact I'd say he's lucky it never happened before if he's done similar things before.

Oh come on. That's ridiculous. Everyone remembers Leonard making that windmill motion with his right, then easily nailing Duran with a hard jab. He was doing the shuffle in front of Duran. He nailed durran with some combinations and got off the ropes before Duran could land his left hook, in fact he was made to miss amatuerishly.

Yeah, he clowned a bit and scored with some pot-shots, that's what I said.
This is boxing, it doesn't always go your way.
If people want to read a bit of showboating and a few sucker pot-shots in the space of about four minutes as "humiliating" or "embarrassing" displays then fair enough.
Personally I'd use those descriptions for stuff like Calzaghe-Lacy.



Put yourself in Durans shoes. Your opponent is making stupid gestures, makes you miss and he hits you in return. You've boxed yourself, right? Then you will know how embarrassing and frustrating it is when your opponent is not only outclassing you in that you can't hit him and he can hit you, but is also making a fool out of you. Not to mention the extra frustration because you already beat him when you were in shape.


Yeah, I've boxed a little bit. But I'm not Roberto Duran. I'd say "fuck it, I've had enough" in lots of situations that Duran's been in. I'm not a great fighter. It's absurd to make a comparison.
It seems odd to try to empathize by speculating on his mentality, when it's a lot easier for us to imagine what it would feel like trying to fight experiencing stomach cramps, a congested bowel, an feeling that you might shit your pants if you move too much, a twisting stomach.
Most human beings can relate to those physical ailments quite accurately, but assume another human beings mental state is very hit-and-miss.


Sure, i never denied that Duran was out of shape.
And yes, probably that's why Leonard was able to clown.


And I think Duran now makes the excuse that he was out-of-shape too.
At the time his cornermen, trainers and managers said he was in great shape as far as training camp went, so perhaps they didn't have a clue. I dont know.


But the point is not WHY Leonard was able to clown, the point is that he was clowning and embarrassing Duran, taking away his will to fight.
Maybe it was his illness, maybe not. All of that came only after the fight.


"Maybe it was the illness" - exactly my point. Maybe it was the illness, and why not give Duran the benefit of the doubt ?

When you watch the fight, you'll see an out of shape Duran missing, not being able to reach Leonard, throwing a 1-2 when Leonard simply backs up, missing a left hook while Leonard is already 90 degrees away, and then he quits.

The first five rounds were fairly even.
And as you describe, Duran was throwing the punches at the end when he decided to quit. Leonard was throwing few.
If he was getting beaten up spectacularly I'd understand your point. But fact is, it was an odd action quitting, very unexpected, HENCE THE CONTROVERSY.

Did you hear the reporters say during round 1-8 "wow, Duran is really looking like an ill man in there" ?

No.
I heard them completely unable to fathom WHY Duran had quit though. They weren't exactly saying :
"That humiliating beating was obviously too much to take, I'm surprsised he endured the embarrassment as long as he did!"


Did you see Duran rush out of the ring after he quit to take a big dump? No, he stayed in there for quite some time and wasn't showing any signs of illness whatsoever. His cornermen, as MWDC pointed out, all thought otherwise as well.


And they all said he was in great shape too.

Like i said before, i don't doubt that he could have had some stomach cramps or whatever. But so what? You're in there for the championship of the world. You think Ali had no trouble pain in his abdomal region against Frazier, not to mention his hips? I didn't see him quit. And it's not like Duran was wobbling around from the pain. To me it looked like an out of shape and very frustrated man, maybe he had some sickness, but not to the extend that it legitmates a quitting job.

You're making a complete different argument now.
You are saying he might have quit because of stomach cramps but he shouldn't have.
I'm not arguing that he was 100% right to quit from stomach cramps, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he actually had stomach cramps and that was why he decided to quit.

I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not he was justified in quitting, since his illness seems to be self-inflicted. No excuses for his defeat.



Next time his camp should reach a little deeper in the pocket and at least produce a shoulder injury or something when going to the hospital after some partying and eating.
I mean for fucks sake, how many fighters in history have quit because they had "stomach cramps"???


So, if it was true he should have lied ?
Yeah, maybe.
Seems like yet another angle to attack him on though.


By the way, i may sound a bit harsh here. For clarity: i think Duran proved his heart plenty of times just like for instance Liston and Vitali did, BUT, some of the excuses being put forward or straightout pathetic. But in the end it does put them a category below a Marciano in the heart department.


I dont disagree.

[JohnThomas1]

Jeff Fenech used to eat like an absolute pig right after his weigh ins too, and i mean eat.

[ChrisPontius]

"Maybe it was the illness" - exactly my point. Maybe it was the illness, and why not give Duran the benefit of the doubt ?


Because of the circumstancial evidence against that: in no hurry at all to leave the ring after he quit, partying after that and only going to the hospital at 3 in the morning where he stayed for a grand total of one night (what a condition that must have been), the fact that he himself said "i thought he'd give me an immediate rematch, i gave him one, so i said to hell with it", the fact that he didn't look ill before, during or after the match.


No one knows for sure about those "stomach cramps" but himself, you give him the benefit of the doubt, i don't.


I just find it amusing that people like Hank here say "Wellll Duran had such an extraordinairy case of ..... STOMACH CRAMPS!" and acting asif it's such a big fucking deal to quit over or anything.

[Duodenum]

Duran's corner shoulda brought along a Porta-Potty and shower curtain.

[dmt]

No Leonard just exposed Duran

[My dinner with Conteh]

You got that backwards, DMT. Montreal - Duran EXPOSED Leonard.


Possibly. Leonard was still made an instant favourite for the rematch- and he quit two times fewer than Duran.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I just find it amusing that people like Hank here say "Wellll Duran had such an extraordinairy case of ..... STOMACH CRAMPS!" and acting asif it's such a big fucking deal to quit over or anything.


That's the funny thing about saddo's like Hank. Duran had 'the worst stomach cramps in history ever ever ever". And didn't you just know that Hank himself would have had stomach cramps that bad. :D

[Bummy Davis]

It was mostly all Trainer.


I know a close friend of Trainer, smart guy but he took Angelo's lead in this senario

[My dinner with Conteh]

Hugh McIlvanney on No Mas:


The complaints of severe stomach cramps may have had some genuine basis. Certainly, the Panamanian's haphazard eating habits are enough to give a boa constrictor indigestion, and the Baptist Hospital in New Orleans did accept, after examinations in the early hours of Wednesday morning, that there had been acute abdominal pains...


....what happened in the final minute of the eight round, because what Duran did then seemed unrelated to physical fear. After holding up his hands to give his first astonishing indication that he wasn't interested in going on, he turned sideways to head for his corner and was instantly assailed by Leonard who hit him with two solid punches to the body.


A man who had retired because of an alarmed desire to protect himself would probably have cringed from that assault, perhaps dropping to one knee for safety. Duran treated the blows as no more than an irritating interruption of his efforts to let everybody know that he had decided to go home.


The origins of that decision may never be fully understood but it is likely that even Duran was doubting the importance of any stomach cramps long before he completed the journey through a snarling crowd to his dressing room. Yet the allegations of cowardice are oversimplified, at least they must be if founded on the belief that his spirit was broken by the fear of physical pain that Leonard could inflict on him.


It is far more feasible that Duran's willingness to fight on was drained out of him by the realisation that for the first time in his life he was going to be deprived of control over his own destiny in the ring. By the seventh round his attempts to close destructively were being exposed as humiliatingly futile.

[JohnThomas1]

That's the funny thing about saddo's like Hank. Duran had 'the worst stomach cramps in history ever ever ever". And didn't you just know that Hank himself would have had stomach cramps that bad. :D

:lol:

[Stonehands89]

Hugh McIlvanney on No Mas:
...


It is far more feasible that Duran's willingness to fight on was drained out of him by the realisation that for the first time in his life he was going to be deprived of control over his own destiny in the ring. By the seventh round his attempts to close destructively were being exposed as humiliatingly futile.

That is partly right. Duran was not "exposed" by Leonard. Nor was he a "bully" or a "coward". The other side of the aisle is just as off... Duran wasn't having a near-death experience with stomach cramps.

The man was always a savage; he satisfied all of the requirement of the label: he was wild, a glutton, sexually promiscuous, prone to extreme behavior, from aggressive outbursts to giving away his purse in toto to the poor in Guerare. What is a savage if he is not impulsive? Duran had no fear as most men do, but on the night he quit against Leonard, he said "to hell with this clown, I can't catch him, I'll get him in 7 months when I train better."

It wasn't stomach cramps that prompted the surrender... it was a mental burb.

It was the fact that he was not in anywhere near the condition he should have been. It his natural impulsivity and an unwilllingness to allow the hated Leonard to have a 'real' win.

Deal with it.
Duran has.

In 1989 he was asked for the millionth time about the New Orleans fiasco by a reporter whose daddy was an ostrich. Duran answered:

"I am a living legend."

Right there is everyone's answer to the question of 'No Mas'.

[dav8d777]

Honestly, you have to ask these people- would Carmen Basilio have walked off like that? Or Ali? etc etc.

Well, this quote really sums it up. There were no more stomach cramps there (because I've had stomach cramps) than there was a pain in Liston's shoulder.

I don't think at all that Duran threw the fight. I think he wanted to avoid more rounds of being humiliated. I also think he was just plain surprised by the adjustment Leonard had made. Duran was not afraid, didn't have stomach cramps and didn't throw the fight. He so severely miscalculated what he would encounter that he would rather lose face in a general way than to have the world continue to watch him be cut up.

[JohnThomas1]

Willie Pep's excuses in Sadler III and IV were bullshit, too, as was Robinson's ridiclous act against Maxim. Quitters all of them.

Yeah, the stream of shit running down Duran's leg and trailing him all the way to the sheds was much more evident than Robinson's stumbling all over the joint :lol:

[Stonehands89]

Willie Pep's excuses in Sadler III and IV were bullshit, too, as was Robinson's ridiclous act against Maxim. Quitters all of them.

Ridiculous post, Hank.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Another good line from the McIlvanney article:




Faced with such indignities the Duran we knew was liable to take drastic retribution. Butting and kicking would have been infinitely less surprising than what he did. But it must be he concluded that somewhere in the complicated reaches of his mentality he had decided that his most effective gesture was to declare the contest void as far as he was concerned. Brown, the second of his old trainers, says that with Duran boxing has always been too serious to be considered a sport. 'It's not like football,' says Brown. 'Because he never gives you the ball.' Realising that Leonard was taking the ball away from him for keeps, Duran resolved to put a knife in it.

[Doc McCoy]

That is partly right. Duran was not "exposed" by Leonard. Nor was he a "bully" or a "coward". The other side of the aisle is just as off... Duran wasn't having a near-death experience with stomach cramps.

The man was always a savage; he satisfied all of the requirement of the label: he was wild, a glutton, sexually promiscuous, prone to extreme behavior, from aggressive outbursts to giving away his purse in toto to the poor in Guerare. What is a savage if he is not impulsive? Duran had no fear as most men do, but on the night he quit against Leonard, he said "to hell with this clown, I can't catch him, I'll get him in 7 months when I train better."

It wasn't stomach cramps that prompted the surrender... it was a mental burb.

It was the fact that he was not in anywhere near the condition he should have been. It his natural impulsivity and an unwilllingness to allow the hated Leonard to have a 'real' win.

Deal with it.
Duran has.

In 1989 he was asked for the millionth time about the New Orleans fiasco by a reporter whose daddy was an ostrich. Duran answered:

"I am a living legend."

Right there is everyone's answer to the question of 'No Mas'.

Nice post :good You make a very cogent argument.

[hdog]

Red Smith said it best: "It would require a deal of convincing to shake the conviction here that Duran had to be sick or injured, because Roberto Duran was not, is not, and never could be a quitter."

But quit he did. Guess Smith was wrong.

[hdog]

That is partly right. Duran was not "exposed" by Leonard. Nor was he a "bully" or a "coward". The other side of the aisle is just as off... Duran wasn't having a near-death experience with stomach cramps.

The man was always a savage; he satisfied all of the requirement of the label: he was wild, a glutton, sexually promiscuous, prone to extreme behavior, from aggressive outbursts to giving away his purse in toto to the poor in Guerare. What is a savage if he is not impulsive? Duran had no fear as most men do, but on the night he quit against Leonard, he said "to hell with this clown, I can't catch him, I'll get him in 7 months when I train better."

It wasn't stomach cramps that prompted the surrender... it was a mental burb.

It was the fact that he was not in anywhere near the condition he should have been. It his natural impulsivity and an unwilllingness to allow the hated Leonard to have a 'real' win.

Deal with it.
Duran has.

In 1989 he was asked for the millionth time about the New Orleans fiasco by a reporter whose daddy was an ostrich. Duran answered:

"I am a living legend."

Right there is everyone's answer to the question of 'No Mas'.


NEAR-DEATH??? Lol, that's absolutely one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

[Stonehands89]

NEAR-DEATH??? Lol, that's absolutely one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

Do you understand the context of that statement or the its point?

[JohnThomas1]

Do you understand the context of that statement or the its point?

One thinks he only saw one sentence lol

[JohnThomas1]

mikey has came aboard. there are legends in boxing., and there are GODS in boxing. ray was a mad super legend, only a hand full of em. but there are only 5 GODS in boxing. SUGAR RAY ROBINSON. JOE LOUIS. ROBERTO DURAN. HARRY GREB. SALVADOR SANCHEZ. ROY JONES IF HE RETIRED AFTER THE RUIZ FIGHT, MAMMA MIA HE MAY HAVE BEEN NO 1 ALL TIME BUT HE FOUGHT ON. in fight 1 duran who started his pro career at 119lbs i know shocking aint it, well hold on plenty more. became a natural lightweight the best ever! jumped to 147 beat ray, plz dont say ray was bullied. HOW n the hell does a guy that weight 119 then 135 now 135 bully a natural welter??? ray lost thats it, it was unheard of what duran did. ray being the goldenboy n all, well i think you get the point. fight 2, 3 ray ran. lbflb ray cant touch duran. fours yous sayin what bouts tommy clocking this 119lb man at one time, i say so. many wood of quit, duran came storming back fought moore at 154 that was an exciting fight man alive it had jake lamotta doing the breakdance twist. duran jumpd to 160 to fight big bad hagler, one of the greatest middleweight ever! RAY FOUGHT HAGLER IN 12 ROUNDS LITTLE DURAN FOUGHT HAGLER IN 15 ROUNDS MAN 3 ROUNDS IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE. DID RAY SLUG WITH MARVIN? NAH! PITY PATTY AT THE END OF EACH ROUND. DURAN SLUGGED WITH HAGLER AND IF A 12 ROUNDER BEATS HAGLER, I STILL THINK IT WAS A DRAW. IF U GO BYE ORIGINAL LBS OH DURAN IS THE LITTLE WARRIOR OF WARRIORS. IT WAS DURAN THAT GAVE RAY THE THOUGHT HE CAN BE BEAT MARVIN HAGLER,MUGABI ALSO . . ,IKEY HAS JUST LEFT THE BUILDING!

Duran didn't "SLUG" with Hagler by any stretch of the imagination.

[joekirkbycobra]

No. Totally unfit and unprepared: yes.nice avatar

[hdog]

Do you understand the context of that statement or the its point?

Obviously, I misread your post. Somehow I thought I read "Duran WAS having a near-death experience" and went a little nuts, lol.

[The Morlocks]

I'm not actually 100% convinced of that. 12 or 15 rounds is a long time to be in with focused Duran, even if you are Leonard fighting smart. Shame we never got to find out.
r u nuts? you did find out on June 20th, 1980. Duran KICKED HIS ASS I had Duran winning 11 rds. And once more Leonard himself said he wanted Duran out of shape for the rematch and he got it. Some brave fighter there.:dead

[MagnaNasakki]

If a fighter signs a fight, it is up to him to be in shape.

Do not sign the contract if you are not going to get into the ring 100%. If you realize leading up to the fight that this is not possible, get it postponed.

Duran dug his own grave. And Leonard clowned him to bury him. Duran decided that it wasn't worth chasing the target he wasn't gonna pin down and losing, and bailed, hoping that he could spin it against Ray and secure an immediate rematch.

Instead, boxing public saw quit job and let Ray off the hook to bigger and better things.

I dont consider no mas a quit job, but I do see it as a fair knock on Durans discipline.
If anything was exposed about any fighter in New Orleans, it was this.

[Pachilles]

Duran needed a poo.

Well Alan Shearer did poo himself mid-game once. And like a true champion he wiped his arse on the pitch and carried on playing.

[Swarmer]

i watched some arguello fight where he hit some black dude with a body shot and he pooped himself, sucks

I read an article in SI that had a poll of athletes in various disciplines and 60%+ of them admitted to going #1 or #2 on themselves mid-game.