Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

[Russell]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?

[Maxmomer]

I rate him higher. He has two devastating wins over a top 25 heavyweight in his prime. Plus Folley, Machen and Williams, all great fighters, and all in their prime. In my opinion his resume is on the same level as Marciano's. I also rate Liston much higher head to head.

[Russell]

I can see the point and how it could be made, but I think it's a minority one on these boards.

Curious, still, though.

[kenmore]

All-time ratings should take into consideration fighting ability as well as career achievements. Even though Marciano's career achievements may have been superior to Liston's, the case can be made that Liston would have been too big, powerful, and strong for Marciano to contend with in the ring. Thus, it is conceivable that Sonny could be rated above Marciano.

[pugilist_boyd]

listons opposition may have been tougher but i see rock winning by late ko if the ref dont stop it on rocks cuts from listons powerfull jabs and hooks

[Marciano Frazier]

I give Marciano less flack than most and probably more than most where Liston is concerned, but yes, I do think Liston can be sanely ranked ahead of Rocky. Ranking of historical champions' "greatness" is a very subjective business, and I think a case can be made for putting, say, the fighters I would have in the #3-13 spots in almost any order, although I obviously feel the order I've put them in is the best one. I rate Marciano #3-4 amongst the heavyweight champions of history, and Liston #10-11, but even that disparity is filled with vagaries and very much debatable, I would say.
To make a Devil's advocate case for Liston here:
It is true that Liston suffered four losses, while Marciano finished his professional career without a blemish, but when we look a little more deeply into the context, it can be pointed out that Liston's loss to Marshall was very early in his career against a much more experienced opponent who was a respectable gatekeeper-level fighter, and was a split decision in a fight in which Liston suffered a broken jaw. I think it's reasonable to believe Marciano, too, could have lost to a Marty Marshall-level opponent in his first 10 professional fights.
After the Marshall match, Liston went undefeated for close to a decade, during which he defeated most of the top fighters in his division, before, of course, losing twice to a young Muhammad Ali. Let us consider that Liston was a bit past his best at the time of these fights, and Ali is regarded by much of the boxing public as the greatest heavyweight of all time. I think it is a reasonable belief that Marciano- especially a past-peak Marciano- would also have lost to Ali.
Liston's final professional loss, as you know, was against Leotis Martin in 1969. Liston was around 40 years old at the time of this match (Marciano was long since retired at this age), facing a legitimate prime contender, and he was, in fact, dominating the fight (he even inflicted a career-ending detached retina on Martin) before Martin came up with the Hail Mary knockout punch of his life to pull out the win. I think it is reasonable to believe that, had Marciano fought on into his late 30's to early '40s, he could have lost to a Martin-level fighter.
With these things considered, I think Liston's lesser win-loss record could be seen as a product of tougher circumstance (was put in with more dangerous competition early in his career, had to deal with the greatest of all time while probably past his own peak, faced a prime contender while at least in his late 30s) and not necessarily of inferior performance level.

It could further be argued that Liston was generally more dominant in his major wins (Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams) than Marciano was in his own, and I think one could make a case that Patterson was on the level of a Walcott or Charles, in which case, Liston's relatively more dominant results against Patterson (two short massacres) than Marciano's against Walcott and Charles (two wars, one dominant win, but with a cut scare, and one blow-out) could be used as a point of contrast in Liston's favor. I also think that it is reasonable to believe Liston could/would beat Marciano in a hypothetical head-to-head-at-best meeting, which is a major criterion for many people.

All of that said, here are some reasons why I disagree with the case I've just mounted above:
1. It is true that Liston's losses are all of an "understandable" nature when taken in context, but Marciano, too, had a number of fights in which, had he lost, it could have been seen as "understandable" (for example, the matches against far-more-experienced undefeated prospects Ross and Quinn in Marciano's third and fourth pro fights), but he never did lose, and thus he still contrasts favorably with Liston.
2. Although his losses to Ali are, as I have said, reasonably excusable in the sense that they are losses to The Greatest while Liston was past his own peak, I believe that they still detract greatly from Liston's legacy on the basis of their content, which could reasonably be termed disgraceful (first fight) and embarrassing (second fight). Liston sat down on his stool and quit after six rounds in which he had not taken a great deal of punishment (and had possibly cheated) in the first fight, which is not conduct befitting a great champion, and speaks very poorly of Liston's fighting heart- and the fact that he quit so easily in a fight which was for the championship makes it all the more damaging. In the second fight, either Liston quit again, or, if he didn't, he unintentionally became one of only two first-round stoppage victims in Ali's entire career, the other being an obscure fighter with a losing record. Nearly everyone Ali fought, including fringe contenders, journeymen and club fighters, offered up a better performance than Liston did. I consider these fights a major strike against Liston's legacy.
3. Along with those things, I believe Marciano has a better winning resume than Liston, a better title reign, did a little better job of cleaning out the top of his division, and, whether he would beat Liston or not (which I consider a tough call), would do better against some other champions than Liston would. For one, I'm extremely confident Marciano would not cheat, then quit on his stool or go out in the first round were he to fight Ali, at any stage in his career; in fact, he probably could've come out of retirement in the '60s and still offered a better showing than Liston did against Ali.

On the whole, then, I consider Marciano a considerably greater fighter than Liston, but "greatness" and the crir side even when things may seem cut and dried to one on a teria which constitute it are extremely subjective things, and as a result, I can see how a "sane" case can often be made for a given position on an issue even when I myself am well on the other side of the fence with regards to it.

[Seamus]

There's always an argument when you are talking of all-time greats but then what does one mean by "rating", what are the criteria...

Head to Head.... I'd pick Marciano but only 60/40. This one could go either way. Liston certainly never defeated a fighter in Marciano's class and perhaps that argument can be made in reverse, but only perhaps.

Pound for Pound... Marciano was a more devastating fighter- pound for pound- at 188 than Liston was at 210. Case closed.

[Hatesrats]

Marciano would never quit.
That alone put's him above Liston in my book.

[RockyJim]

Remember...Marciano NEVER quit.....Nuff' said!!!

[McGrain]

I rate him higher. He has two devastating wins over a top 25 heavyweight in his prime. Plus Folley, Machen and Williams, all great fighters, and all in their prime. In my opinion his resume is on the same level as Marciano's. I also rate Liston much higher head to head.

This is my position also.

It is also the case that individual wins can impact a fighter's legacy to a great degree, and Liston's pair over Patterson is unequaled anywhere in the history of the division. Arguably Patterson is a better HW than anyone Marciano fought.

Liston is #3 on my list, Marciano is #10.

[JohnThomas1]

Plus Folley, Machen and Williams, all great fighters, and all in their prime.


I'm not sure i can quite agree here. Greatness is a fair way above those guys IMO. Maybe you didn't mean it that strongly?

[Unforgiven]

Two first round wins over Patterson is a good argument for Liston being rated highly. Patterson was a good fighter.

But Liston quit pathetically against Clay.
Liston didn't do quite enough in his career to cancel out that, IMO.
I know Clay was good but lots of lesser fights put up far better arguments than Liston managed.
Those showings somewhat undermine what Liston did with Patterson and a few other contenders.

Liston might make my top 10, but not necessarily. I'd probably rate Marciano above him. Marciano never lost, and certainly never QUIT, and he was a mean motherfucker in his own right.

[SuzieQ49]

did a little better job of cleaning out the top of his division

you made a strong post above MF but i disagree here. I dont see how marciano did a better job, i dont see how anyone did a better job cleaning out the division than liston. Liston not only beat but he dominated the best of his era machen, williams 2x, patterson 2x, valdez, bethea, dejohn, harris.


While marciano cleaned out the division, he did not face everyone like liston did nor dominate as much as liston, and the rock failed to fight one of the younger bigger contenders of his day(practiclly rockys only viable critisism which shows u how good his resume is)


both liston and rock accomplished alot in there eras

[Longhhorn71]

Wonder what happens when Rock's right hand bomb lands squarely on Liston's jaw (ala Leotis Martin's big punch did to Liston)?

[Holmes' Jab]

I have Liston just behind overall (6th to Marcianos 5th), an argument can certainly be put foward to rank him above due to impressivness on film and head-to-head abilty (Liston takes both IMO).

Overall career record goes to Marciano, to have gone through his career undefeated against some top fighters (whilst being behind on the scorecards on more than a few occasions) speaks volumes. Certainly the same can't be said regarding Dempsey.

Head to head: Liston KO5 Marciano.

[Dempsey1238]

This is my position also.

It is also the case that individual wins can impact a fighter's legacy to a great degree, and Liston's pair over Patterson is unequaled anywhere in the history of the division. Arguably Patterson is a better HW than anyone Marciano fought.

Liston is #3 on my list, Marciano is #10.

Perhaps, but I belive Charles and Walcott are a step over Patterson imo. They fought the big fights, top contenders of there era, and for the most part, no soft touchs in title defenses. Patterson always strikes me as one of thsos champs that didnt relly defend against the best. Kinda of like Willard or Dempsey in that regard.
I think Fraizer over Ali or Corbett over Sullivan or even Marciano over Walcott/Charles were bigger wins than Liston over Patterson.

[Seamus]

Perhaps, but I belive Charles and Walcott are a step over Patterson imo. They fought the big fights, top contenders of there era, and for the most part, no soft touchs in title defenses. Patterson always strikes me as one of thsos champs that didnt relly defend against the best. Kinda of like Willard or Dempsey in that regard.
I think Fraizer over Ali or Corbett over Sullivan or even Marciano over Walcott/Charles were bigger wins than Liston over Patterson.

Walcott and Charles are certainly bigger wins.

Moreso, how does someone rate Liston #3 with his single successful title defence and the under-whelming cast of contenders he laid waste to? But I think we have had these discussions on the this board about a dozen times. Facts and relevance are in the end of little concern and mythbuilding takes precedence every time.

[Dempsey1238]

We have about 3 or 4 trends on this anyway. sure its 50 plus pages back.

[Maxmomer]

you made a strong post above MF but i disagree here. I dont see how marciano did a better job, i dont see how anyone did a better job cleaning out the division than liston. Liston not only beat but he dominated the best of his era machen, williams 2x, patterson 2x, valdez, bethea, dejohn, harris.


While marciano cleaned out the division, he did not face everyone like liston did nor dominate as much as liston, and the rock failed to fight one of the younger bigger contenders of his day(practiclly rockys only viable critisism which shows u how good his resume is)


both liston and rock accomplished alot in there eras

I agree. The best fighters Liston fought were generally younger than the best Marciano fought, and Liston tended to beat his comp in more dominating fashion.

[Maxmomer]

Perhaps, but I belive Charles and Walcott are a step over Patterson imo. They fought the big fights, top contenders of there era, and for the most part, no soft touchs in title defenses. Patterson always strikes me as one of thsos champs that didnt relly defend against the best. Kinda of like Willard or Dempsey in that regard.
I think Fraizer over Ali or Corbett over Sullivan or even Marciano over Walcott/Charles were bigger wins than Liston over Patterson.

Marciano beat past prime versions of Walcott and Charles, and was given hell against both of them in 3 out of 4 fights, Liston dominated a prime Patterson and knocked him out in one round, twice. I rate Patterson close to Walcott and Charles on my All Time HW list. I'm more impressed by Listons wins over Patterson.

[ChrisPontius]

you made a strong post above MF but i disagree here. I dont see how marciano did a better job, i dont see how anyone did a better job cleaning out the division than liston. Liston not only beat but he dominated the best of his era machen, williams 2x, patterson 2x, valdez, bethea, dejohn, harris.


While marciano cleaned out the division, he did not face everyone like liston did nor dominate as much as liston, and the rock failed to fight one of the younger bigger contenders of his day(practiclly rockys only viable critisism which shows u how good his resume is)


both liston and rock accomplished alot in there eras


Liston never fought Johansson, who certainly was the #3, behind the #2 Patterson. It wasn't really his fault but i do think Marciano has the claim to the cleaner run here. Also, Marciano didn't flop like Liston did in his second title defence. I think those two make the difference, with most emphasis on the latter.

[Maxmomer]

Wonder what happens when Rock's right hand bomb lands squarely on Liston's jaw (ala Leotis Martin's big punch did to Liston)?

I wonder what happens when Liston lands anything on Rocky's chin. The hardest puncher Rocky faced was Walcott, who is not in Liston's league as a puncher. Liston at least faced Williams.

[McGrain]

Perhaps, but I belive Charles and Walcott are a step over Patterson imo.

Dempsey, this is not an unreasonable position, I think it's fair (though it isn't MY position). However, it is also the cas that Charles and Walcott gave Rocky all the troble he could handle - Liston obliterated Patterson.

They fought the big fights, top contenders of there era, and for the most part, no soft touchs in title defenses. Patterson always strikes me as one of thsos champs that didnt relly defend against the best. Kinda of like Willard or Dempsey in that regard.
I think Fraizer over Ali or Corbett over Sullivan or even Marciano over Walcott/Charles were bigger wins than Liston over Patterson.

Frazier over Ali certainly is, Corbett over Sullivan is arguable (in retrospect), on the others we disagree. But once you take into account the manner of the wins, Liston streaks ahead.

Do you agree?

[Dempsey1238]

The manner,?? Dempsey Willard??? Foreman Frazier?? Tyson Spinks??

I put Patterson as "Champion" a bit above say Willard(Willard sat on the title) but some were around Dempsey, and way below Marciano, Louis, Ali ete. Guys that fought the best. Sure Ingo comes into it, but Cus still though he got a soft touch there.

Walcott and Charles may have been past "Primes" perhaps, but mental they were hard to crack at the time. Marciano didnt land 1 or 2 punchs, he had to beat them down. That was more than what Tyson or Liston dish out most times. Williams was not fighting on with his face shallow up like Ezzard Charles, IE, eyes close, bump on neck, cheeks smash in. After Williams took a good shot from Liston, he went down and didnt get up.

[McGrain]

The manner,?? Dempsey Willard??? Foreman Frazier?? Tyson Spinks??

I don't see how this impacts on a comparison between Liston and Marciano but:

Dempsey took three rounds to beat Willard. This is longer than it took Liston to beat Patterson twice.

Foreman-Frazier - Frazier, post Ali, is not peak Frazier, although as a pair of wins, it is certainly up there, yes.

Tyson-Spinks is a lovely win, but I don't think I think Patterson is by far the greater HW.

I put Patterson as "Champion" a bit above say Willard(Willard sat on the title) but some were around Dempsey, and way below Marciano, Louis, Ali ete. Guys that fought the best. Sure Ingo comes into it, but Cus still though he got a soft touch there.

Well, Patterson has a pair of wins over Johannson who should probably be rated inside the top 35, all time - so he should be more than "a bit" above Willard in my opinion. Yes, Patterson is below the absolute elite.

[Dempsey1238]

I put Jess Willard in the top 30 imo. Yes he sat on the title. but Wins over Jack Johnson, Well that was about the only win worth mention. But I add points for Willard on his way out vs Dempsey. I dont see many heavyweights going on in the shape Willard was vs Dempsey, getting beat down like he did, and not lasted 1 round, but 3, before the towel was thown.

One of best type of gut showings EVER imo. Patterson didnt show that imo. Perhaps Ali, but not to the extant of the Dempsey Willard fight.

[McGrain]

I think giving Willard credit for the Dempsey beating is reasonable. I think Patterson's heart is unquestionable. It think that Patterson sould be above Dempsey on any HW list.

[markedwardscott]

Marciano definitely accomplished more. But if they fought prime for prime? Marciano was fairly easy to hit and was decked by lesser hitting guys. I think Liston might bounce him a la "Down goes Frazuh! Down goes Frazuh!"

[Bummy Davis]

Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano, Please dont say Big Cat Williams, Marciano Ko'd Keene Simmons and the Cat went the full route a yr later, besides Marciano had 15 rd power. Liston had the mean look but he folded vs Ali, so was he really that tough, he did Ko Patterson early twice but Floyd was admittedly intimidated. Sorry not fully impressed with Sonny he did not go out so well...He fought Marshall young, even though Marty was a lightheavy and lost to Leotis late...In betwenn he quit and took a dive over Ali...Would Ali have his hands full vs Marciano Oh YEa...Tyson looked Great on his way to Douglas but repeated the pattern in tough fights with Evander, Lewis, Danny Williams, Mcbride.....Its something inside that comes out in tough fights...a crack..Sonny Showed the crack so did Iron Mike...Marciano showed there was no crack in his armor.....could Sonny give Rocky a tough fight Yes...Could he beat Marciano,Louis, Dempsey,Ali on a good night,like Douglas did vs Tyson, possibly, could he fall under pressure like he did vs Ali...Yes....did he suffer from that Bully Syndrome...Looks that way....He could give but he was not the best in the take it department

[Seamus]

Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano, Please dont say Big Cat Williams, Marciano Ko'd Keene Simmons and the Cat went the full route a yr later, besides Marciano had 15 rd power. Liston had the mean look but he folded vs Ali, so was he really that tough, he did Ko Patterson early twice but Floyd was admittedly intimidated. Sorry not fully impressed with Sonny he did not go out so well...He fought Marshall young, even though Marty was a lightheavy and lost to Leotis late...In betwenn he quit and took a dive over Ali...Would Ali have his hands full vs Marciano Oh YEa...Tyson looked Great on his way to Douglas but repeated the pattern in tough fights with Evander, Lewis, Danny Williams, Mcbride.....Its something inside that comes out in tough fights...a crack..Sonny Showed the crack so did Iron Mike...Marciano showed there was no crack in his armor.....could Sonny give Rocky a tough fight Yes...Could he beat Marciano,Louis, Dempsey,Ali on a good night, possibly, could he fall under pressure like he did vs Ali...Yes....did he suffer from that Bully Syndrome...Looks that way

Christ Almighty, are we the only two people who know these things and see reality?

I'm not saying Marciano gets a walkover vs. Liston. However, he would be Liston's best opponent, including the very green Clay he fought. Even a close to prime Ali admitted he would have had his hands full against Marciano.

[McGrain]

I'm not saying Marciano gets a walkover vs. Liston. However, he would be Liston's best opponent, including the very green Clay he fought. Even a close to prime Ali admitted he would have had his hands full against Marciano.

Mariano was not "better" than Ali. That is nonsense. Even if the argument could be made that Ali was not quite prime, not quite prime Ali is still a more serious proposition than Marciano.

Liston never beat anyone as good as Marciano, but the reverse is true. This is almost always the case for these fantasy matches, and pointing it out is usually worthless.

[Seamus]

Mariano was not "better" than Ali. That is nonsense. Even if the argument could be made that Ali was not quite prime, not quite prime Ali is still a more serious proposition than Marciano.

Liston never beat anyone as good as Marciano, but the reverse is true. This is almost always the case for these fantasy matches, and pointing it out is usually worthless.

Not Ali, Clay.

The 1964 Clay remains a supremely over-rated fighter. What would a prime Marciano do to a Doug Jones or Henry Cooper I-era Clay? Well, those were the fights directly preceding Liston I and I would make a prime Marciano a favorite in either, as I would many other champs and non-champs. Another reason I think people give Liston too much credit, as he was beat by a very imcomplete and green fighter.

[SuzieQ49]

Marciano beat past prime versions of Walcott and Charles, and was given hell against both of them in 3 out of 4 fights, Liston dominated a prime Patterson and knocked him out in one round, twice. I rate Patterson close to Walcott and Charles on my All Time HW list. I'm more impressed by Listons wins over Patterson.

Now I think ur being unfair to marciano. Walcott was quite clearly at/near the top of his game when he took on marciano in the first fight. Also, how in gods name did charles give marciano hell in the rematch? he lost every round and was knocked down.

[SuzieQ49]

I wonder what happens when Liston lands anything on Rocky's chin. The hardest puncher Rocky faced was Walcott, who is not in Liston's league as a puncher. Liston at least faced Williams.


wrong the hardest puncher rocky every fought was 6'2 215lb joe louis. Louis was once the greatest puncher of all time, and despte being 37 power is the last thing to go. Louis was much bigger than walcott, so he had more force on his punch.

[Bummy Davis]

wrong the hardest puncher rocky every fought was 6'2 215lb joe louis. Louis was once the greatest puncher of all time, and despte being 37 power is the last thing to go. Louis was much bigger than walcott, so he had more force on his punch.

Walcott at 38 still had power in either hand and he could pinpoint punch better than Liston who was more of a clubber but Louis had power in both hands but his legs were gone in the Marciano fight...Charles hit harder than Marty Marshall

[OLD FOGEY]

A top level fighter being ko'd twice in consecutive fights by a single opponent is, as far as I can figure, unique in boxing history. My take is that such an dual outcome was dependent not only on what Liston brought to the table, but also what Patterson did not, whether because he was intimidated or for some other reason. Therefore I do not push Liston into the stratosphere on the basis of the Patterson fights but try to judge him the basis of his entire career, warts and all, and the Machen, Besmanoff, King, Whitehurst, etc fights were warts, as were some others.

[SuzieQ49]

e Machen, Besmanoff, King, Whitehurst, etc fights were warts, as were some others.

I thought liston looked good in the whitehurst fights, it showed his boxing skills and his ability to win fights alone with his jabs, and he pretty much knocked whitehurst out cold at the bell. the machen fight though not one of listons best, shows listons ability to fight at 12 hard paced rounds.



old fogey since you were around u remember what happened in the liston-valdez and liston-folley fights? what were the knockdowns how did they look?

[SuzieQ49]

Walcott at 38 still had power in either hand and he could pinpoint punch better than Liston who was more of a clubber but Louis had power in both hands but his legs were gone in the Marciano fight


I agree louis and walcott were both big punchers, even at there advanced ages. walcott was a late bloomer anyways , and louis could still hit and was big.

[OLD FOGEY]

I thought liston looked good in the whitehurst fights, it showed his boxing skills and his ability to win fights alone with his jabs, and he pretty much knocked whitehurst out cold at the bell. the machen fight though not one of listons best, shows listons ability to fight at 12 hard paced rounds.



old fogey since you were around u remember what happened in the liston-valdez and liston-folley fights? what were the knockdowns how did they look?

I just turned on the Valdes fight about a minute before the knockout. Liston backed Valdes up against the ropes and hit him with a short right to the side of the jaw-mouth area. Valdes went down into a kind of sitting position with his legs crossed under him, kind of like a Native American around the fire but without the legs pulled back. I remember that the camera was on Valdes and blood spilled out of the corner of his mouth and ran down his chin. He tried to get up at the last moment but did not make it.
I can't say much about styles here except Liston obviously had a powerful right.

The Folley fight was not on home TV as I remember. Closed circuit. I have never seen it. SI Vault has a description of the bout online.

(that is Sports Illustrated Vault--under SI Vault)

[Maxmomer]

After Williams took a good shot from Liston, he went down and didnt get up.

Wait...are you arguing that Marciano was better than Liston because Liston beat his opponents faster and more convincingly?

[Maxmomer]

wrong the hardest puncher rocky every fought was 6'2 215lb joe louis. Louis was once the greatest puncher of all time, and despte being 37 power is the last thing to go. Louis was much bigger than walcott, so he had more force on his punch.

I think at that period Walcott was the better puncher.

[Maxmomer]

Now I think ur being unfair to marciano. Walcott was quite clearly at/near the top of his game when he took on marciano in the first fight. Also, how in gods name did charles give marciano hell in the rematch? he lost every round and was knocked down.

I feel Walcott was at his best around his fights with Louis and wins over Maxim. Charles may not have gave Marciano "hell", but two very good fights when he was on the slide.

[fists of fury]

To answer your question Russell, no. Not at all.

The great fighters, I mean the really great fighters, find a way to win. They thrive on adversity and fight harder when the going gets tough.
Rocky did it more than once, Liston did not, and probably never did.

That right there ends all arguments as far as I'm concerned.

[fists of fury]

...Tyson looked Great on his way to Douglas but repeated the pattern in tough fights with Evander, Lewis, Danny Williams, Mcbride.....Its something inside that comes out in tough fights...a crack..Sonny Showed the crack so did Iron Mike...Marciano showed there was no crack in his armor

This point can't be stressed enough...there are many similaritites between Liston and Tyson.
Both were fantastic fighters when on top, but when real adversity came their way, they invariably lost. We can make excuses here and there, maybe even justify the losses to an extent, but at the end of the day it was a repeating pattern in both men's careers.

[McGrain]

Not Ali, Clay.

The 1964 Clay remains a supremely over-rated fighter. What would a prime Marciano do to a Doug Jones or Henry Cooper I-era Clay? Well, those were the fights directly preceding Liston I and I would make a prime Marciano a favorite in either, as I would many other champs and non-champs. Another reason I think people give Liston too much credit, as he was beat by a very imcomplete and green fighter.

I think you need to look again at Liston I and reappraise Muhammad Ali - he was Ali by then, he just hadn't gone public - "very incomplete" is a pretty useless appraisal. I think that there is an argument that Liston I changed Ali, and that he was always better after it than before, but he was also already the greatest athlete in the divisions history who had learned lessons from Cooper and Jones - I find it odd that the very fights most people regard as Ali's learning fights being behind him is something you use to support your notion that he was green, very odd - he was a fighter ready to lift the title. Which he did.

It's unlikely prime Marciano would fare very well against this mobile corkscrew puncher.

[fists of fury]

I think you need to look again at Liston I and reappraise Muhammad Ali - he was Ali by then, he just hadn't gone public - "very incomplete" is a pretty useless appraisal. I think that there is an argument that Liston I changed Ali, and that he was always better after it than before, but he was also already the greatest athlete in the divisions history who had learned lessons from Cooper and Jones - I find it odd that the very fights most people regard as Ali's learning fights being behind him is something you use to support your notion that he was green, very odd - he was a fighter ready to lift the title. Which he did.

It's unlikely prime Marciano would fare very well against this mobile corkscrew puncher.

Well, we can speculate on Marciano v Clay/Ali all day, but I agree that Muhammad was hardly green by the time he fought Liston. He was probably not the finished article yet, but he wasn't too far off. I think some of the adversity he did have to deal with like the Cooper and Jones fights prepared him well for Liston.

[McGrain]

Well, we can speculate on Marciano v Clay/Ali all day, but I agree that Muhammad was hardly green by the time he fought Liston. He was probably not the finished article yet, but he wasn't too far off. I think some of the adversity he did have to deal with like the Cooper and Jones fights prepared him well for Liston.

I consider Cooper and Jones serious lessons learned with Liston I providing the type of self belief that makes a champion into a boxing God.

[Mendoza]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?

It depends on how you rate things.

Marciano accomplished more by making more title defenses.

Liston looked better in the ring, and more formidable.

In a legacy sense, Marciano is greater. In a head to head sense, I think Liston is greater. If you could combine the best traits of Marciano and Liston, you have one heck of a fighter.

[ironchamp]

Marciano would never quit.
That alone put's him above Liston in my book.

We dont know that.

And that alone shouldnt put him ahead.

The best way to be objective in a subjective sport is to rate ATG Champtions on:

1. Tenure as Champ (dominance, longevity or consistency)
2. Quality of Opposition (fighting the best available fighters in thier era)
3. Ability as a fighter (subjective but technical proficiency can sometimes be pretty clear to true boxing fans)


I have Marciano ahead btw following these criteria but in terms of H2H strictly? I got Sonny Liston higher.

[Seamus]

I think you need to look again at Liston I and reappraise Muhammad Ali - he was Ali by then, he just hadn't gone public - "very incomplete" is a pretty useless appraisal. I think that there is an argument that Liston I changed Ali, and that he was always better after it than before, but he was also already the greatest athlete in the divisions history who had learned lessons from Cooper and Jones - I find it odd that the very fights most people regard as Ali's learning fights being behind him is something you use to support your notion that he was green, very odd - he was a fighter ready to lift the title. Which he did.

It's unlikely prime Marciano would fare very well against this mobile corkscrew puncher.


It is commonly referred to as Clay/Liston as he announced his change the following day if I remember. Anyways, semantics.

I find him skittish but effective early in that fight. It truly was the fight that transformed him into something more than he was before it, I will agree. However, it followed directly two fights in which he did appear vulnerable against smaller, lesser fighters. It was the last time for many years that he was ripe for the picking. Liston certainly gets beat worse in 66-67 and not just because he suddenly got old. He was still a very feared commodity.

[Bummy Davis]

Sonny had the look but his best wins were over Patterson and that Patterson was down many times and Ko'd before. Patterson was even dropped by a fighter in his 1st pro fight Pete Radamaker. Liston was up there in the mean look department and had a great powerfull Jab. How goood was Sonny, Big Cat was overated...Sonny looked slow and cumbersome vs Ali and Cooper the faster man found the mark more effectively than Sonny. Valdez was a win but nothing great...Sonny was in the Body type scary top 5, Tyson was in it 2....I think Big Cat had a body for it also....and Ron Lyle but could they live up to the look inside the ring....Tyson did the best

[McGrain]

It is commonly referred to as Clay/Liston as he announced his change the following day if I remember. Anyways, semantics.

Yes, it's semantics, it's also the case that you corrected me incorrectly regarding the semantics. You're right though, the official announcement didn't come until Ali was confirmed as champion. He was also Cassius X for a while beforehand, I think.

I find him skittish but effective early in that fight. It truly was the fight that transformed him into something more than he was before it, I will agree. However, it followed directly two fights in which he did appear vulnerable against smaller, lesser fighters. It was the last time for many years that he was ripe for the picking. Liston certainly gets beat worse in 66-67 and not just because he suddenly got old. He was still a very feared commodity.

This is the thing - Ali is a different fighter after Cooper knocks him down. You can see it in the very next round. Fighters often lose these "learning fights", or did. Ali won both of his but they still made him a different man, and a different fighter.

[janitor]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?

I personaly rate Marciano higher but I would not say that sombody who had Liston higher was being unrealistic let alone insane.

In many ways they make an interesting paralel.

They are the last of the "pre olympic ticket" all time great heavyweights and both were thrown to the wolves early on in their profesional careers, with verry little amateur experience. While Patterson and Ingo rode the olympic train, Liston was a throwback to the likes of Walcott and Marciano. In that respect they are the last of the old guard.

Where they differ is that Marciano had mediocre physical asets on paper and made up for it with training ethic while Liston had outstanding physical asets but lost focus once he got to the top.

Ironicaly the T rex armed slugger came out with a slightly better resume than the gorilla armed boxer puncher who had everything.

[Dempsey1238]

We dont know that.

And that alone shouldnt put him ahead.

The best way to be objective in a subjective sport is to rate ATG Champtions on:

1. Tenure as Champ (dominance, longevity or consistency)
2. Quality of Opposition (fighting the best available fighters in thier era)
3. Ability as a fighter (subjective but technical proficiency can sometimes be pretty clear to true boxing fans)


I have Marciano ahead btw following these criteria but in terms of H2H strictly? I got Sonny Liston higher.

We dont know that?? Walcott I, behind on the cards, blind for 3 or so rounds??
Charles II, split nose. Came back to win. I think we should know Marciano would not quit.

[SuzieQ49]

marciano knocking ezzard charles out when he had too with his nose bleeding like a faucet with just 23 seconds left in the round(or fight for that matter) is one of the greatest stories in boxing history. Makes u laugh when u see genaro hernandez quitting with a broken nose, marciano refused to give up when his nose was nearly torn off!!

[OLD FOGEY]

It depends on how you rate things.

Marciano accomplished more by making more title defenses.

Liston looked better in the ring, and more formidable.

In a legacy sense, Marciano is greater. In a head to head sense, I think Liston is greater. If you could combine the best traits of Marciano and Liston, you have one heck of a fighter.

"Liston looked better in the ring, and more formidable."

Except when he didn't, such as against Besmanoff, Machen, and King, not to mention Ali.

[SuzieQ49]

old fogey have u seen liston vs folley, valdez and dejohn? these are some of his best knockouts according to the papers and yet 99% of us here have not seen them. is that fair to liston?

[SuzieQ49]

For those that say liston did not accomplish much............


Let me ask you outside of louis and ali

which heavyweight accomplished more and was more dominant than this 6 year run........


Red - Ranked in the top 10 by ring magazine

Green - was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston

1958:
6'3 193lb Billy Hunter TKO 2

6'0 204lb Wayne Bethea TKO 1


1959:

6'5 202lb Mike Dejohn TKO 6

6'3 210lb Cleveland Williams TKO 3

6'3 211lb Nino Valdez KO 3


1960:

6'3 216lb Cleveland Williams TKO 2

6'1 195lb Roy Harris TKO 1

6'1 199lb Zora Folley KO 3

6'0 196lb Eddie Machen W 12


1961: 5'7 195lb Albert Westphal KO 1


1962: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1

1963: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1



Record against the following men: 12-0(11)


11-0(10) knockouts against Opposition who was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


7-0(6kos) against top 10 ring magazine annuel rated contenders during this run

Record during this time against the rated 6'0 + 200lb + men: 5-0(5kos)


- Out of all these wins, the only close fight liston had was eddie machen, and even this according to the papers and most who view the fight was not controversial. so out of these 12 fights against top opposition, liston did not have one real controversial win, which means he clearly and cleanly DOMINATED his opposition. The same cannot be said of many other champions. Also take note on the size of his opposition, as the size of his opposition when up the more he dominated his opponent.




Lastly lets look at the age of the following opponents when the fight took place


1958: Billy Hunter age 24
Wayne Bethea age 25

1959: Mike Dejohn age 27
Cleveland Williams age 25
Nino Valdez age 34

1960: Roy Harris age 26
Cleveland willaims age 26
Zora Folley age 29
Eddie Machen age 28


1961 Albert Westphal age 30


1962 Floyd Patterson age 26

1963 Floyd Patterson age 27



So out of these 12 men, only one Nino Valdez was over the age of 30. Listons pretty much wiped out all the prime contenders in there 20s. His record in these bouts i listed above against men under 30 is 10-0(9). what heavyweight champion fought such young prime contenders as much as liston did? What heavyweight champion fought a career average list of contenders 27-28 years old?

[ron u.k.]

if you look at overall resumes there's not much between them you could even say that sonny's is a little bit better,although as a champion rocky achieved more and you would have to rank him higher with his 6 defences and retiring unbeaten,while sonny just has 1 succesfull defence before the 2 ali debacles.one thing always puzzles me about liston being probably rightly regarded as a bully,was that in the 2 williams matches he took some huge bombs from big cat and basically just walked right through him showing great heart,while he quit on his stool the 1st time with ali and lay down the 2nd fight.a real contradiction in his mentallity there which makes you think were there other things in play.

[mcvey]

I consider Cooper and Jones serious lessons learned with Liston I providing the type of self belief that makes a champion into a boxing God.
Cooper said that in the return with Ali was far better inside ,in their first fight he just held and waited for the ref to break them .

[Seamus]

Is it time for a separate Liston Worship Forum?

[ChrisPontius]

Is it time for a separate Liston Worship Forum?

I don't know but if they need an admin, you'd better clean your pm box before it gets overflowed.

[ironchamp]

We dont know that?? Walcott I, behind on the cards, blind for 3 or so rounds??
Charles II, split nose. Came back to win. I think we should know Marciano would not quit.

Boxing has a funny way of bringing out certain emotions in people. One day you are blood and guts rocky and the next day you don't have hte stomach for it- just not your night. Never is a word that shouldnt be used in boxing. "Not likely" would be the appropriate substitute.

George Foreman gets credited with lots of heart for enduring punishment against Holyfield, coming from behind against Moorer, Getting up and fighting back against Lyle but he quit against Muhammad Ali in Zaire. That cannot be forgotten.

Lamon Brewster was seen as the guy with loads of heart never say die attitude and pulled out one of the biggest wins in his career against Wlad after taking what could be considered in humane punishment. In the rematch he quit knowing fully that he didnt have the guts, patience or stomach to take another beating- it wasnt in him that night.

Jose Luis Castillo fought a hard fought fight against Mayweather possibly giving Floyd one of his toughest fights, he was blood and guts never-say-die against Corrales in each encounter but he more or less quit against Ricky Hatton.

Even Sonny Liston himself fought with a broken jaw and lost split decision to Marty Marshall early in his career. Had the internet been around then people would claim Liston had the heart of lion. Sonny of course, later disgraced himself against Clay who later became Ali.

Look at Andrew Golota, he found a way to mentally implode in every major fight (Bowe 2x, Lewis, Tyson) that he's had but against Byrd, Ruiz and Mollo- He kept his cool despite the frustration he may have had against Ruiz, Byrd and Mollo who just wouldnt go away.

We can't possibly claim that The Rock would never quit in any situation. There is a strong possibility that he wouldnt but to say never- defies conventional wisdom

[OLD FOGEY]

Boxing has a funny way of bringing out certain emotions in people. One day you are blood and guts rocky and the next day you don't have hte stomach for it- just not your night. Never is a word that shouldnt be used in boxing. "Not likely" would be the appropriate substitute.

George Foreman gets credited with lots of heart for enduring punishment against Holyfield, coming from behind against Moorer, Getting up and fighting back against Lyle but he quit against Muhammad Ali in Zaire. That cannot be forgotten.

Lamon Brewster was seen as the guy with loads of heart never say die attitude and pulled out one of the biggest wins in his career against Wlad after taking what could be considered in humane punishment. In the rematch he quit knowing fully that he didnt have the guts, patience or stomach to take another beating- it wasnt in him that night.

Jose Luis Castillo fought a hard fought fight against Mayweather possibly giving Floyd one of his toughest fights, he was blood and guts never-say-die against Corrales in each encounter but he more or less quit against Ricky Hatton.

Even Sonny Liston himself fought with a broken jaw and lost split decision to Marty Marshall early in his career. Had the internet been around then people would claim Liston had the heart of lion. Sonny of course, later disgraced himself against Clay who later became Ali.

Look at Andrew Golota, he found a way to mentally implode in every major fight (Bowe 2x, Lewis, Tyson) that he's had but against Byrd, Ruiz and Mollo- He kept his cool despite the frustration he may have had against Ruiz, Byrd and Mollo who just wouldnt go away.

We can't possibly claim that The Rock would never quit in any situation. There is a strong possibility that he wouldnt but to say never- defies conventional wisdom

The issue which was raised with Liston concerns the situation he was in when he quit. He was certainly still competitive in the fight and his facial wounds were not that severe compared to what others had fought with. Check out Basilio fighting to the finish with one eye against Robinson in their second fight.

Anyone might quit if the victim of a Willard against Dempsey style butchering.

[Marciano Frazier]

you made a strong post above MF but i disagree here. I dont see how marciano did a better job, i dont see how anyone did a better job cleaning out the division than liston. Liston not only beat but he dominated the best of his era machen, williams 2x, patterson 2x, valdez, bethea, dejohn, harris.


While marciano cleaned out the division, he did not face everyone like liston did nor dominate as much as liston, and the rock failed to fight one of the younger bigger contenders of his day(practiclly rockys only viable critisism which shows u how good his resume is)


both liston and rock accomplished alot in there eras
To my knowledge, during the time period between Marciano's "coming-out party" in the elite heavyweight title picture against Layne and his retirement five years later, six fighters (aside from Marciano himself) were ranked number one contender by the RING: Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roland LaStarza, Nino Valdes, and Archie Moore. Marciano fought and defeated five of the six. Two fighters (other than Marciano) were champion in that time: Charles and Walcott. Marciano fought and defeated both of them.

From the time of Liston's emergence as an elite fighter (starting with the first Williams fight) to the time Liston lost his championship to Ali, also five years later, there were five fighters (aside from Liston) ranked number one contender by the RING that I know of: Folley, Johansson, Patterson, Machen, and Clay (Ali). Of those, Liston fought four and beat three. There were also two champions (other than Liston) in that time: Patterson and Johansson. Liston fought and beat one.

If I were to make a top 10 out of Marciano's contemporaries (feel free to contradict my assessments on either of these forthcoming lists if you feel I'm misjudging), I think it would consist (not necessarily in order outside the top three) of Walcott, Charles, Moore, Johnson, old Louis, Valdes, LaStarza, Henry, Baker, and Layne. Marciano beat six of the 10, all of the top three, and arguably all of the top four/five (it becomes debatable when you're comparing old Louis with Johnson and whatnot), with a total record of 9-0 with 7 knockouts. Out of Liston's contemporaries- up until he lost the title in '64- I would roughly assess the top 10 as consisting (not necessarily in order past the top two) of Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Valdes, and Jones. Liston fought six of them as well, beating five, including the #2, but not the #1 or 3, and compiled a total record of 7-1 with 6 knockouts. If we exclude Ali from consideration for the sake of argument, then I say Mike DeJohn moves into the 10th slot, and so Liston still fought six of the top 10, beat the #1, but not the #2, and has an 8-0 (7 KOs) total.

On the whole, then, I would say it's reasonably clear that Marciano has a slightly better record than Liston in terms of facing and beating the elite opposition of his era.

[fists of fury]

If I were to make a top 10 out of Marciano's contemporaries (feel free to contradict my assessments on either of these forthcoming lists if you feel I'm misjudging), I think it would consist (not necessarily in order outside the top three) of Walcott, Charles, Moore, Johnson, old Louis, Valdes, LaStarza, Henry, Baker, and Layne.

Good list.

Also, Marciano was fighter of the year twice and 3 of his championship fights were fight of the year. Not bad going.

[fists of fury]

one thing always puzzles me about liston being probably rightly regarded as a bully,was that in the 2 williams matches he took some huge bombs from big cat and basically just walked right through him showing great heart,while he quit on his stool the 1st time with ali and lay down the 2nd fight.a real contradiction in his mentallity there which makes you think were there other things in play.

Once again I can draw a parallel with Tyson here. He fought the one-dimensional but huge-punching Ruddock twice, and Ruddock got through with some big shots. He was also one Tyson opponent who was not scared of Iron Mike. Yet, Tyson wasn't deterred and won both fights handily.

In both instances, neither Tyson nor Liston were being outclassed. They took some punishment, but they were in the fight.
In the Clay fight (to be correct with the names at the time) I think it dawned on Sonny pretty quickly he wasn't going to beat him. Maybe he felt a little humiliated in being outshone by a heavy underdog.

In the 2nd Holyfield fight, I think the same happened, although by that point Holyfield was probably the betting favourite. Nonetheless, Tyson had made a lot of noise about being better for the rematch, and yet Evander was still beating him. Tyson took the easy way out, as (I believe) so did Liston.

I would not suggest either lacked heart or guts, but maybe they just didn't have the championship heart of a Holyfield or Marciano in that no matter what, they would fight on.
Or maybe Liston had reached a point in his career that made him think
"You know what? I don't need this anymore..."
Hard to tell really.

But either way, those two losses to Ali leave a bad taste in my mouth, just as Tyson's cop out against Holyfield does.

[OLD FOGEY]

To my knowledge, during the time period between Marciano's "coming-out party" in the elite heavyweight title picture against Layne and his retirement five years later, six fighters (aside from Marciano himself) were ranked number one contender by the RING: Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roland LaStarza, Nino Valdes, and Archie Moore. Marciano fought and defeated five of the six. Two fighters (other than Marciano) were champion in that time: Charles and Walcott. Marciano fought and defeated both of them.

From the time of Liston's emergence as an elite fighter (starting with the first Williams fight) to the time Liston lost his championship to Ali, also five years later, there were five fighters (aside from Liston) ranked number one contender by the RING that I know of: Folley, Johansson, Patterson, Machen, and Clay (Ali). Of those, Liston fought four and beat three. There were also two champions (other than Liston) in that time: Patterson and Johansson. Liston fought and beat one.

If I were to make a top 10 out of Marciano's contemporaries (feel free to contradict my assessments on either of these forthcoming lists if you feel I'm misjudging), I think it would consist (not necessarily in order outside the top three) of Walcott, Charles, Moore, Johnson, old Louis, Valdes, LaStarza, Henry, Baker, and Layne. Marciano beat six of the 10, all of the top three, and arguably all of the top four/five (it becomes debatable when you're comparing old Louis with Johnson and whatnot), with a total record of 9-0 with 7 knockouts. Out of Liston's contemporaries- up until he lost the title in '64- I would roughly assess the top 10 as consisting (not necessarily in order past the top two) of Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Valdes, and Jones. Liston fought six of them as well, beating five, including the #2, but not the #1 or 3, and compiled a total record of 7-1 with 6 knockouts. If we exclude Ali from consideration for the sake of argument, then I say Mike DeJohn moves into the 10th slot, and so Liston still fought six of the top 10, beat the #1, but not the #2, and has an 8-0 (7 KOs) total.

On the whole, then, I would say it's reasonably clear that Marciano has a slightly better record than Liston in terms of facing and beating the elite opposition of his era.

Excellent analysis. I would disagree on one point--Harold Johnson probably should be in the top ten of the Liston era also. He defeated Satterfield and Bethea after Marciano retired, and defeated Machen and Jones in the sixties. Valdes was older and finished by 1959, while Johnson would still fight for years and would score major wins over top heavyweights long after Valdes had retired.

[SuzieQ49]

For those that say liston did not accomplish much............


Let me ask you outside of louis and ali

which heavyweight accomplished more and was more dominant than this 6 year run........


Red - Ranked in the top 10 by ring magazine

Green - was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


1958:
6'3 193lb Billy Hunter TKO 2

6'0 204lb Wayne Bethea TKO 1


1959:

6'5 202lb Mike Dejohn TKO 6

6'3 210lb Cleveland Williams TKO 3

6'3 211lb Nino Valdez KO 3


1960:

6'3 216lb Cleveland Williams TKO 2

6'1 195lb Roy Harris TKO 1

6'1 199lb Zora Folley KO 3

6'0 196lb Eddie Machen W 12


1961: 5'7 195lb Albert Westphal KO 1


1962: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1

1963: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1



Record against the following men: 12-0(11)


11-0(10) knockouts against Opposition who was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


7-0(6kos) against top 10 ring magazine annuel rated contenders during this run

Record during this time against the rated 6'0 + 200lb + men: 5-0(5kos)


- Out of all these wins, the only close fight liston had was eddie machen, and even this according to the papers and most who view the fight was not controversial. so out of these 12 fights against top opposition, liston did not have one real controversial win, which means he clearly and cleanly DOMINATED his opposition. The same cannot be said of many other champions. Also take note on the size of his opposition, as the size of his opposition when up the more he dominated his opponent.




Lastly lets look at the age of the following opponents when the fight took place


1958: Billy Hunter age 24
Wayne Bethea age 25

1959: Mike Dejohn age 27
Cleveland Williams age 25
Nino Valdez age 34

1960: Roy Harris age 26
Cleveland willaims age 26
Zora Folley age 29
Eddie Machen age 28


1961 Albert Westphal age 30


1962 Floyd Patterson age 26

1963 Floyd Patterson age 27



So out of these 12 men, only one Nino Valdez was over the age of 30. Listons pretty much wiped out all the prime contenders in there 20s. His record in these bouts i listed above against men under 30 is 10-0(9). what heavyweight champion fought such young prime contenders as much as liston did? What heavyweight champion fought a career average list of contenders 27-28 years old?





btw i like ur anaylsis MF

[Bummy Davis]

To my knowledge, during the time period between Marciano's "coming-out party" in the elite heavyweight title picture against Layne and his retirement five years later, six fighters (aside from Marciano himself) were ranked number one contender by the RING: Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roland LaStarza, Nino Valdes, and Archie Moore. Marciano fought and defeated five of the six. Two fighters (other than Marciano) were champion in that time: Charles and Walcott. Marciano fought and defeated both of them.

From the time of Liston's emergence as an elite fighter (starting with the first Williams fight) to the time Liston lost his championship to Ali, also five years later, there were five fighters (aside from Liston) ranked number one contender by the RING that I know of: Folley, Johansson, Patterson, Machen, and Clay (Ali). Of those, Liston fought four and beat three. There were also two champions (other than Liston) in that time: Patterson and Johansson. Liston fought and beat one.

If I were to make a top 10 out of Marciano's contemporaries (feel free to contradict my assessments on either of these forthcoming lists if you feel I'm misjudging), I think it would consist (not necessarily in order outside the top three) of Walcott, Charles, Moore, Johnson, old Louis, Valdes, LaStarza, Henry, Baker, and Layne. Marciano beat six of the 10, all of the top three, and arguably all of the top four/five (it becomes debatable when you're comparing old Louis with Johnson and whatnot), with a total record of 9-0 with 7 knockouts. Out of Liston's contemporaries- up until he lost the title in '64- I would roughly assess the top 10 as consisting (not necessarily in order past the top two) of Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Valdes, and Jones. Liston fought six of them as well, beating five, including the #2, but not the #1 or 3, and compiled a total record of 7-1 with 6 knockouts. If we exclude Ali from consideration for the sake of argument, then I say Mike DeJohn moves into the 10th slot, and so Liston still fought six of the top 10, beat the #1, but not the #2, and has an 8-0 (7 KOs) total.

On the whole, then, I would say it's reasonably clear that Marciano has a slightly better record than Liston in terms of facing and beating the elite opposition of his era.


Very good breakdown

[Marciano Frazier]

Excellent analysis. I would disagree on one point--Harold Johnson probably should be in the top ten of the Liston era also. He defeated Satterfield and Bethea after Marciano retired, and defeated Machen and Jones in the sixties. Valdes was older and finished by 1959, while Johnson would still fight for years and would score major wins over top heavyweights long after Valdes had retired. This is a good point. You're right. In fact, Johnson pretty well cleaned up on all of the fighters from my list who he fought, most of them in the time period in discussion. He moves into my top 10. Moore could almost make it as well, since he beat RING #4 Lavorante as late as '62, but he didn't face enough elite heavyweights (and was crushed by the one he did face- Clay) in that time period in my opinion.
Valdes had a good run from late '56-58, with an 11-1 run where he beat guys like Erskine, DeJohn, Bethea and McMurtry, but it seems he was absolutely finished starting in '59, when he lost to Charlie Powell and Alonzo Johnson, and since that is the beginning of the period in consideration in my analysis, on further inspection, I drop Valdes from my list. The new list will look like this:
Clay (Ali), Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones and Johnson, or Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones, Johnson and DeJohn if Clay/Ali is excluded (again, not necessarily in order after the top 2-3). Ad******g the numbers accordingly, that would mean Liston fought five of his top 10 contemporaries and went 6-2 or 7-0 depending on the respective list.

[SuzieQ49]

Clay (Ali), Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones and Johnson, or Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones, Johnson and DeJohn if Clay/Ali is excluded


I like your list, but mike dejohn instead of nino valdez, despite nino beating dejohn twice and beating better fighters??


also if you include h2h as a factor, I think valdez knocks henry cooper out in under 5 rounds, or cuts his face to bits like he did too don cockell.

[Marciano Frazier]

I like your list, but mike dejohn instead of nino valdez, despite nino beating dejohn twice and beating better fighters??


also if you include h2h as a factor, I think valdez knocks henry cooper out in under 5 rounds, or cuts his face to bits like he did too don cockell.
As I discussed in the above post, since I am mostly looking at the scene from the time Liston came into the title picture (starting with the DeJohn and Williams wins in early '59, which, if I'm not mistaken, were what first put Liston into the top 5), I see that Valdes had very poor results by world class standards in that time frame, with losses to Charlie Powell and Alonzo Johnson in the handful of fights he had in the said period before retiring. DeJohn was more "live" during Liston's big-time career than Valdes was.

[Conn]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?


It's all a matter of opinion.
Personally I'd probably rate Marciano above Liston too.

[Conn]

There's always an argument when you are talking of all-time greats but then what does one mean by "rating", what are the criteria...

Head to Head.... I'd pick Marciano but only 60/40. This one could go either way. Liston certainly never defeated a fighter in Marciano's class and perhaps that argument can be made in reverse, but only perhaps.

Pound for Pound... Marciano was a more devastating fighter- pound for pound- at 188 than Liston was at 210. Case closed.


I'd probably settle for it being a 50-50 proposition myself. :good

[Conn]

Not Ali, Clay.

The 1964 Clay remains a supremely over-rated fighter. What would a prime Marciano do to a Doug Jones or Henry Cooper I-era Clay? Well, those were the fights directly preceding Liston I and I would make a prime Marciano a favorite in either, as I would many other champs and non-champs. Another reason I think people give Liston too much credit, as he was beat by a very imcomplete and green fighter.

I agree with this.

Liston seems to get a pass because of what Cassius Clay became later on. At the time, Clay/Ali was still a developing novice, an improving fighter but not necessarily yet close to being a great one.

[Danmann]

Marciano beats him, and by ko. Liston had the stare, the ex-con background, all the things reporters emphasized to scare fans. Marciano could fight better all around.

They were not far apart in size. I get sick of people who rank Sam Langford as one of greatest heavys of all time saying Marciano or Dempsey were too small.

[MagnaNasakki]

You can't. Rock has the stronger resume and the better career?


Head to head, I'd bet my house on Liston, and I'd probably pick Sonny to beat more great heavyweights.

But in terms of what they accomplished in their careers, Rocky definitely achieved to a higher degree.

[My2Sense]

The 1964 Clay remains a supremely over-rated fighter. What would a prime Marciano do to a Doug Jones or Henry Cooper I-era Clay? Well, those were the fights directly preceding Liston I and I would make a prime Marciano a favorite in either, as I would many other champs and non-champs. Another reason I think people give Liston too much credit, as he was beat by a very imcomplete and green fighter.



Liston seems to get a pass because of what Cassius Clay became later on. At the time, Clay/Ali was still a developing novice, an improving fighter but not necessarily yet close to being a great one.

Two spot-on posts.

[My2Sense]

For those that say liston did not accomplish much............


Let me ask you outside of louis and ali

which heavyweight accomplished more and was more dominant than this 6 year run........

Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Dempsey, Lewis, Johnson, Walcott, Charles, W. Klitschko, for starters.



1958:
6'3 193lb Billy Hunter TKO 2

6'0 204lb Wayne Bethea TKO 1


1959:

6'5 202lb Mike Dejohn TKO 6

6'3 210lb Cleveland Williams TKO 3

6'3 211lb Nino Valdez KO 3


1960:

6'3 216lb Cleveland Williams TKO 2

6'1 195lb Roy Harris TKO 1

6'1 199lb Zora Folley KO 3

6'0 196lb Eddie Machen W 12


1961: 5'7 195lb Albert Westphal KO 1


1962: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1

1963: 6'0 195lb Floyd Patterson KO 1



So in other words, he beat one HOF champion and only two other top 5 contenders? That's arguably the weakest resume of any HOF HW champ.

[My2Sense]

George Foreman gets credited with lots of heart for enduring punishment against Holyfield, coming from behind against Moorer, Getting up and fighting back against Lyle but he quit against Muhammad Ali in Zaire.

No he didn't, he actually got up at the count of 8 or 9, but the ref inexplicably waved if off.

Lamon Brewster was seen as the guy with loads of heart never say die attitude and pulled out one of the biggest wins in his career against Wlad after taking what could be considered in humane punishment. In the rematch he quit knowing fully that he didnt have the guts, patience or stomach to take another beating- it wasnt in him that night.

More like knowing he was one punch away from permanent semi-blindness, seeing as he was coming off major retina surgery and probably shouldn't even have been licensed to fight.

Look at Andrew Golota, he found a way to mentally implode in every major fight (Bowe 2x, Lewis, Tyson) that he's had but against Byrd, Ruiz and Mollo- He kept his cool despite the frustration he may have had against Ruiz, Byrd and Mollo who just wouldnt go away.


Probably something to do with the former group being all punchers, and the latter group lacking real power.

[lufcrazy]

Liston looks better on film.

Rocky comes top in any other category.

[Conn]

Liston looks better on film.

Rocky comes top in any other category.


Depends which films you are watching.

[Ramon Rojo]

Based on achievement Rocky is better of course because he's undefeated.

But if they fought each other Rocky would be in a world of hurt.

[RockyJim]

Liston...as the champion...QUIT WHILE SITTING ON HIS STOOL IN MIAMI IN 1964...no quit in Rocky Marciano during the Walcott fight in 1952...or in the 2nd fight with Charles in 1954 in which he had his nose split open DOWN TO THE BONE...AND BEGGED THE REF NOT TO STOP THE FIGHT...because he was worried about losing the title...and of course he stormed out and kept the crown with a KO...Rocky beats Liston on heart alone...

[JohnThomas1]

You can't rate Liston ahead on an ATG heavyweight list (unless purely H2H) but i'd take him head to head with confidence.

[steve w]

I run with Rocky, but with no great certainty, Liston had some mental fraglity about him where Rocky had none, Sonny looked a tough sob, but Rocky WAS a tough sob, Liston, on his day, could beat anybody, and so could Rocky by sheer will, if Rocky gets inside the jab, serious violence would ensue, but that would not be easy.

[Stonehands89]

I see Marciano having a very tough time despite and perhaps because of his monster will. This is not a fight where that is gonna help him.

Liston has a reputation for being mentally fragile in some quarters. But it doesn't hold up. Liston is too often confused with Tyson.

Marciano is very strong, but he isn't moving Liston backwards. Liston will move him backwards and that presents a problem for Marciano because he needs leverage and forward momentum. Once Liston starts confirming that he is the stronger beast in there, he's gonna start standing Rocky up with the jab and setting up bombs. Rocky off balance takes punishment.

Grinding fighters who rely on will and endurance are fodder for Liston. The way to beat him is to jab him, turn him, counter him. Rocky can't do that.

His only chance is to outmuscle, outslug, or outlast him.

Who will take the other's shots better? Liston had a great chin. Rocky did too, but if Walcott and Moore could drop him, Liston will too. I don't see Marciano dropping him. Liston isn't going to concede much of anything to Marciano and that will register like a strange new world.

[jowcol]

The Ali fights were shrouded in controversy.
When was Sonny born? 32? 29? You can say this about many fighters but he got a late start. Brought along right he may well have been a top contender by the middle fifties.
The Rock is a true HOF'er but a prime Sonny matchup is not right for him.
Liston may have brutalized the Rock IMO.
Of all the Rock's opponents, who compares to Liston?
LaStarza was a slick tough fighter but you wanna throw him in against a prime Sonny?
Granted I'm a Liston semi-nuthugger but I'd bet the house against the Rock in a PvP matchup...

[Grinder]

listons opposition may have been tougher but i see rock winning by late ko if the ref dont stop it on rocks cuts from listons powerfull jabs and hooks

Why do people always say that Rocky loses on cuts in hypothetical fights? The split nose against Ezzard Charles? He was never stopped on cuts, why does he suddenly become susceptible to them in these imaginary fights?

[Ren]

whilst most people are aware that Liston would batter the Rock, and its obvious that Rock stayed in retirement after Johansson lost his title because he knew it, Rocky is the greater acheiver. Just because he would lose P2P against Liston, its shouldnt be forgotten that he had several characteristics that Liston never had that made him a legend.


Its a bit like Roy Jones and Calzaghe - Roy Jones would batter Calzaghe any day in his prime, but Calzaghe is the much higher acheiver at his weight category - although Calzage and Marciano are in different leagues of greatness of course (Maricano, undisputed champ v Calzaghe, minor title holder) and I am in no way tryign to say Cal is near the greatness of such undisputed champs of yesteryear.



In defence of Liston quitting against Clay - if the Rock was faced with someone who he couldnt touch, the best heavyweight in history, and was getting schooled, and then tore his shoulder too, theres a fair chance he would quit- you'd be stupid to fight on with torn ligaments, and Marciano certainly wasnt a stupid man.
So the Rock would likely quit too, lets not pretend hes superhuman.

[lufcrazy]

Hold your horses there sonny jim!

You aren't seriously saying calzaghe achieved more than jones are you?

[MMJoe]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?

Longest jab in heavyweights vs shortest jab in heavyweights. Are you sure you don't what to reconsider?

In sports, when in doubt, always pick the knee grow.
In robot building competition, when in doubt, always pick the Jap.

[Boxed Ears]

Liston doesn't make my top ten heavyweight list. I wouldn't deny he could be an excellent boxer and he had legendary power, and a top five HW jab, nor would I slag off his only two elite wins, over Patterson. He was also likely a serious cheat, with questionable heart, fairly limited speed and overall athleticism, a good but not great resume, and overall cannot compare with the best in terms of resume or longevity. I have Ali, Louis, Holmes, Frazier, Lewis, Foreman, Tyson and several others, including Marciano, ahead of him, and without any hesitation. I think he's grossly overrated, especially H2H, and I don't even particularly rate his super chemical punch, rumoured to be used on several occasions, and against far lesser fighters than a green Ali, whom he was already so heavily favoured over (Can anyone here imagine the shit Tyson would take for trying to blind Buster Douglas to win? :lol:). Liston is an apologist's wet dream. There's plenty to work with, there.

I rate him higher. He has two devastating wins over a top 25 heavyweight in his prime. Plus Folley, Machen and Williams, all great fighters, and all in their prime. In my opinion his resume is on the same level as Marciano's. I also rate Liston much higher head to head.

Greatness: Now comes in good flavour and raspberry!

Is it time for a separate Liston Worship Forum?

:lol:

[KuRuPT]

Rocky in both areas... I'm really not sure how it could be viewed otherwise.

[he grant]

I rate him higher. He has two devastating wins over a top 25 heavyweight in his prime. Plus Folley, Machen and Williams, all great fighters, and all in their prime. In my opinion his resume is on the same level as Marciano's. I also rate Liston much higher head to head.

Pretty much sums it up except I'm not sure I'd call Folley, Machen and Williams great fighters but I would call them terrific fighters and all were in their primes .. add the fact that Liston was about thirty pounds of muscle heavier and had fifteen plus inches in reach and head to head goes out the window as well ..

[mcvey]

Rate Liston above Marciano on a ATG Heavyweight list?

I give Marciano a little more flak than most, but I can't see Liston logically being ahead of the Rock in any way shape or form.

Thoughts?
Head to Head? The Liston who ko'd Williams twice, stops Marciano imo.

[Bummy Davis]

Listen looked ferocious and had an nice arsenal but something tells me Marciano's heart and power and stamina get him on the inside and Marciano's off Rhythm power put Liston in pain.

Both would dish it but Rocky's low stance and awkward crouch allow him some defensive shelter while administering some of his own crunchers. For me I was never really impressed with Williams as a Big puncher and he was KO'd in 3 by Bob Satterfield before the Liston fights so he was someone who could be KO'd

Mike DeJohn could hit but not in the big leagues. Leotis Martin had some power vs an Older Liston and Sonny folded but Leotis was not an elite banger.

I think Marciano's Big heart,subtle defense and power makes a difference here...IMO Liston suffered from the bully syndrome, he could give it but did not like taking it....he did quit twice vs Ali

[sauhund II]

Liston doesn't make my top ten heavyweight list. I wouldn't deny he could be an excellent boxer and he had legendary power, and a top five HW jab, nor would I slag off his only two elite wins, over Patterson. He was also likely a serious cheat, with questionable heart, fairly limited speed and overall athleticism, a good but not great resume, and overall cannot compare with the best in terms of resume or longevity. I have Ali, Louis, Holmes, Frazier, Lewis, Foreman, Tyson and several others, including Marciano, ahead of him, and without any hesitation. I think he's grossly overrated, especially H2H, and I don't even particularly rate his super chemical punch, rumoured to be used on several occasions, and against far lesser fighters than a green Ali, whom he was already so heavily favoured over (Can anyone here imagine the shit Tyson would take for trying to blind Buster Douglas to win? :lol:). Liston is an apologist's wet dream. There's plenty to work with, there.



Greatness: Now comes in good flavour and raspberry!



:lol:
Bingo, Co-sign.

Liston is made out to be this mythical monster but the uncomfortable facts are that he had his jaw broken by a middleweight, struggled with a bean stick, got laid out cold by a ham and egger (old but nevertheless was Tyson out cold after xxx flush number of punches by Williams or Lewis ?) and flat out quit not once but twice by a green and totally unproven Clay.

Ultimately he quit on life too when he administered his own demise while chasing the golden dragon.......

This is leftist liberal re history apologetic writing at its finest similar to the Kennedys, dirt bags in reality but heros in the manipulated media.

[Ren]

Hold your horses there sonny jim!

You aren't seriously saying calzaghe achieved more than jones are you?

hi. clarification -i mean calzaghe acheived more at ONLY SMW than Roy did. Roy acheived 2 or 3 times more than Calzaghe overall. tbh, Roy could easily have chosen to do what Calzaghe did and defend 20 times at SMW, but Cal could never in a month of Sundays do what Roy did and be a HW champ and dominant LH champ.

thats how i am comparing it too Liston/Rocky. Liston was way too big and strong for Rocky to beat more than once out of three, but Rocky def acheived more.


tbh, if Ali had arrived 10 years earlier (ie born earlier, not fighting as a pre teen pissed about his lost cycle lol), then obviously Rocky would be just another tough contender, and the same for Liston too. Sad but true.

[mcvey]

Bingo, Co-sign.

Liston is made out to be this mythical monster but the uncomfortable facts are that he had his jaw broken by a middleweight, struggled with a bean stick, got laid out cold by a ham and egger (old but nevertheless was Tyson out cold after xxx flush number of punches by Williams or Lewis ?) and flat out quit not once but twice by a green and totally unproven Clay.

Ultimately he quit on life too when he administered his own demise while chasing the golden dragon.......

This is leftist liberal re history apologetic writing at its finest similar to the Kennedys, dirt bags in reality but heros in the manipulated media.


Liston was having his 8th fight when he fought Marshall he lost a split dec.

Marshall was a pretty big middleweight, given he weighed 180.5lbs for that fight. :patsch


Seven months later, Liston floored him 7 times in 6rds for a stoppage.

Liston was an old man when Martin kod him .Sonny was winning the fight but ran out of gas.
Liston was made out as a mythical monster because he took out the reigning champion inside 1 rd in two fights for a total of under 5 minutes ring time.Liston had beaten 5 rated contenders, when he got his title shot.
That ham and egger was rated no 4.

Liston was feared as a top drawer puncher ,because he was one, with over 72% ko 's
Your revisionism is hilarious.

[cuchulain]

whilst most people are aware that Liston would batter the Rock, and its obvious that Rock stayed in retirement after Johansson lost his title because he knew it, Rocky is the greater acheiver. Just because he would lose P2P against Liston, its shouldnt be forgotten that he had several characteristics that Liston never had that made him a legend.

What exactly are you trying to say here, Ren ?



Its a bit like Roy Jones and Calzaghe - Roy Jones would batter Calzaghe any day in his prime, but Calzaghe is the much higher acheiver at his weight category - although Calzage and Marciano are in different leagues of greatness of course (Maricano, undisputed champ v Calzaghe, minor title holder) and I am in no way tryign to say Cal is near the greatness of such undisputed champs of yesteryear.

While Calzaghe wasn't on the Rock's level, he was undisputed champ, not a minor title holder.






In defence of Liston quitting against Clay - if the Rock was faced with someone who he couldnt touch, the best heavyweight in history, and was getting schooled, and then tore his shoulder too, theres a fair chance he would quit- you'd be stupid to fight on with torn ligaments, and Marciano certainly wasnt a stupid man.
So the Rock would likely quit too, lets not pretend hes superhuman.

Where to begin with this piece of speculation ?

[Seamus]

What exactly are you trying to say here, Ren ?




While Calzaghe wasn't on the Rock's level, he was undisputed champ, not a minor title holder.







Where to begin with this piece of speculation ?


All three reactions I had. As most know, The Rock tried a comeback when Ingo was champ, but the injuries were still there and the will to train like a monk wasn't. Those were the reasons he remained retired, not some ogre of Liston.

In regards to Liston's injured shoulder, there were many who did not believe it was injured including ref Barney Felix. That his face and pride were taking a pounding remains a fact.

[rodney]

Liston could give it. For sure. But he wasn't too good at taking it. Marciano could do both.

[Ren]

What exactly are you trying to say here, Ren ? I'd say that Rock didnt want the hassle of getting beat by Floyd and Liston, which he must have known was likely. Now whilst Floyd had the advantage of youth and Marciano would be sensible to avoid him (which he may well have done), Sonny was Marcianos age and you would think Rocky would be happy to go up against a fellow oldie if he really deep down felt he was better than him, it would surely be an easier win for him to batter a fellow old man than try to keep up with the lively Johannson or fast Floyd.


While Calzaghe wasn't on the Rock's level, he was undisputed champ, not a minor title holder. oh yeah he eventually was undisputed, but only for a short while, unlike the Rock who was undisputed and took on all comers. I didnt want anyone to think I was saying Cal was as good as Rocky, they are in different leagues.

Where to begin with this piece of speculation ? sure, it was speculation, but I wanted to add more to my post so I put it in. Fair play in criticising it.



Look fair play guys, I was being highly speculative in the post about Marciano. I am only second guessing why he stopped when Patterson got the title back, if it was about injuries /lack of interest that he stopped his comeback then I bow to your greater knowledge. It just struck me as odd the timing of it, it was almost like he got worried by Floyd and Liston.

This doesnt change my view that Liston would beat Marciano 2 out of 3 fights, Rock simply gives away too many advantages that of too big a dimension, apart from his edge in heart and fitness.

[he grant]

Listen looked ferocious and had an nice arsenal but something tells me Marciano's heart and power and stamina get him on the inside and Marciano's off Rhythm power put Liston in pain.

Both would dish it but Rocky's low stance and awkward crouch allow him some defensive shelter while administering some of his own crunchers. For me I was never really impressed with Williams as a Big puncher and he was KO'd in 3 by Bob Satterfield before the Liston fights so he was someone who could be KO'd

Mike DeJohn could hit but not in the big leagues. Leotis Martin had some power vs an Older Liston and Sonny folded but Leotis was not an elite banger.

I think Marciano's Big heart,subtle defense and power makes a difference here...IMO Liston suffered from the bully syndrome, he could give it but did not like taking it....he did quit twice vs Ali


Perhaps you can mention an actual fight where Rocky took on a much larger, stronger, harder punching man with a fourteen inch reach advantage and in his physical prime that gives you any basis for making such a Hail Mary of a prediction , hero worship aside ? With all respect in the world to Rocky he had no more heart, power or stamina than Joe Frazier .. the difference is that Rocky never met his George Foreman based on the luck of the draw at the time .. the rest is simply fantasy ...

[Bummy Davis]

He did KO 6"4 Carmine Vingo and beat many men that were Liston's size and larger, Sonny was slightly over 6" but remember it was 179lb Marty Marshall that beat Sonny and broke his Jaw and Leotis was 6" and 199lbs when he flat KO'd Sonny

[Seamus]

He did KO 6"4 Carmine Vingo and beat many men that were Liston's size and larger, Sonny was slightly over 6" but remember it was 179lb Marty Marshall that beat Sonny and broke his Jaw and Leotis was 6" and 199lbs when he flat KO'd Sonny

Carmine Vingo was actually 7-2 and weighed 280 pounds with -2% body fat and was considered the uncrowned champ of the heavyweight division.

[choklab]

Grinding fighters who rely on will and endurance are fodder for Liston. The way to beat him is to jab him, turn him, counter him. Rocky can't do that.

.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Don’t forget Marciano was a great fighter and nobody is guaranteed to wipe out great fighter.

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

angelo dundee himself said (given that he was in besmanoffs corner when Liston beat him) that :“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.”


Of course Liston did beat real contenders like machen folley and harris - the harris fight being the most impressive but the weaker contender who offered very little on the night. We will never know if folly came to fight because the film has not been available. Many of the other sometimes contenders Liston met were second stringers on losing streaks whom all other contenders could beat when Liston squashed them. There was a lot of one sided fights.

Liston was impressive at a level but his performances against top psyched out opponents has created a mystique that has overblown his standing in h2h ratings IMO.

[Bummy Davis]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Don’t forget Marciano was a great fighter and nobody is guaranteed to wipe out great fighter.

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

angelo dundee himself said (given that he was in besmanoffs corner when Liston beat him) that :“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.”


Of course Liston did beat real contenders like machen folley and harris - the harris fight being the most impressive but the weaker contender who offered very little on the night. We will never know if folly came to fight because the film has not been available. Many of the other sometimes contenders Liston met were second stringers on losing streaks whom all other contenders could beat when Liston squashed them. There was a lot of one sided fights.

Liston was impressive at a level but his performances against top psyched out opponents has created a mystique that has overblown his standing in h2h ratings IMO.


:good

[choklab]

.. the difference is that Rocky never met his George Foreman based on the luck of the draw at the time .. the rest is simply fantasy ...

But did george foreman meet the real joe frazier? There is no way on earth Frazier was the same pin point acurate, razor sharp beast who cleaned out the 1968-1971 scene. Frazier was mixing in the wrong era when he met george. Frazier, like marciano did not need the "luck of the draw" for four years against the best out there but pushed his luck after when his best was done. Frazier could never hope to be the same fighter after TFOTC, he had paid his dues up until that point.

[MagnaNasakki]

The jab pays the bills in boxing. Liston would decisively outjab Marciano: Rocky never had to deal with one as good, and a jab like Listons is very hard to sustain. Just a punishing weapon, one that would break up Rock's face in short order.

Rocky had an underrated defense, but ultimately, he had one strategy when stuff wasn't going his way: Grind his way in, let his hands go, and damn what came back. He got hit plenty flush in plenty of fights by plenty of guys, but he was always the better man in there: The harder puncher, the stronger guy. And when he met an opponent with the skills to deal with his approach, they were each JUST old enough to lack the legs and the reflexes to keep up a tactical approach for long.

Rocky is absolutely an amazing fighter, a threshing machine, but he did benefit in some tiny ways with the era he fought in.

He never fought a Liston. Liston had all the tools you need to beat Marciano-The length, the power, the strength, and in the early days, the ferocity.

I do think its a great point that if Rocky could get in, and impose his will, his greater character could see him through hell to victory.

I honestly don't think he makes it enough rounds to get to that point. A prime Liston would have what he needed to stay away for a decent chunk of time, and he'd have the strength to escape the inside enough times to work behind his long range punches.

I think those long range punches and terrific uppercuts and hooks(The ones he hit a lunging Patterson with) would accumulate real fast.

He's not the greater fighter, might not even be the better fighter, but he has all the tools to beat Rocky. Any fight where its one fighters chin and will against the other fighters best stuff, I'll go with the attacking guy, be his arsenal potent.

For the first 4 or 5 rounds, Rocky would be all but at Listons mercy on the outside and on the way in, and I don't think he would be able to sustain, face and chin, what that would cost him to rally late over a fading or breaking Sonny.

Just my view.

[MagnaNasakki]

But did george foreman meet the real joe frazier? There is no way on earth Frazier was the same pin point acurate, razor sharp beast who cleaned out the 1968-1971 scene. Frazier was mixing in the wrong era when he met george. Frazier, like marciano did not need the "luck of the draw" for four years against the best out there but pushed his luck after when his best was done. Frazier could never hope to be the same fighter after TFOTC, he had paid his dues up until that point.

Frazier struggles with Foreman at any time.

Any version of George is going to attack with everything he has, and any version of Frazier is going to attempt to hold his ground, weave, and give back.

Foreman's greater firepower and iron jaw see him to a stoppage in this sort of war more often then not. Peak Frazier's defense was good, but not amazing, and even the best defensive specialists(Young) got hit by Foreman and hurt eventually. Young ran like his life depended on it when that moment came. Frazier would try to fight back, and he'd get blown away, much like in Jamaica. It's a stylistic mismatch.

Frazier deteriorated after FOTC, but not nearly as drastically as is made out.

[choklab]

Frazier struggles with Foreman at any time.

Any version of George is going to attack with everything he has, and any version of Frazier is going to attempt to hold his ground, weave, and give back..


Yes you are right about what both would do however the timing prime Frazier had would effect young george - a prime Frazier would meet george on the way in, it would not have been one way traffic. Foreman looked awsome because he wasnt getting hit back - if you watch foremans recent fight against ted gullick just before the frazier fight he got caught with plenty. Frazier would have hurt george bad with even the timing gullick had.

Foreman's greater firepower and iron jaw see him to a stoppage in this sort of war more often then not. Peak Frazier's defense was good, but not amazing, and even the best defensive specialists(Young) got hit by Foreman and hurt eventually. Young ran like his life depended on it when that moment came. Frazier would try to fight back, and he'd get blown away, much like in Jamaica. It's a stylistic mismatch..

70% of peak fraziers defence was how he could time and double up that lead hook at any range. You take away that timing and he has to take shots on the way in. Thats ok against ali and joe bugner but suicide against foreman. George had fun with frazier but he would not have had so much of an easy time before TFOTC.

Frazier deteriorated after FOTC, but not nearly as drastically as is made out.

joe was still a great fighter against those he did not need to depend on so much timing against. His eyesight was out by then but frazier was still able to be a great fighter but needed more things his way by then.

[lufcrazy]

Unfortunately for rocky, he's just too small for serious h2h debates against elite true heavyweights such as liston.

[TAC602]

Unfortunately for rocky, he's just too small for serious h2h debates against elite true heavyweights such as liston.

This is going to put the Marciano faithful past the boiling point of metal. Hard to honestly disagree though.

[turpinr]

Unfortunately for rocky, he's just too small for serious h2h debates against elite true heavyweights such as liston.in a nutshell:good

[Ren]

I notice that people are happy to tag Liston as having some false bullyboy presence, but they arent attributing the same presence to Rock. And they are happy claiming that Liston relied on it but arent claiming that Rocky relied on it to beat his opponents. The hyperbole surrounding Marciano is just as farfetched and scary as that surrounding Listons - they both relied and created fearsome reputations which must have chilled opponents. Its almost as if people are attributing cowardly bullying to Liston but fearsome heroics to Rocky, which is silly and probably racist.

[MadcapMaxie]

I notice that people are happy to tag Liston as having some false mystic presence, but they arent attributing the same presence to Rock. And they are happy claiming that Liston relied on it but arent claiming that Rocky relied on it to beat his opponents. They hyperbole surrounding Marciano is just as farfetched and scary as that surrounding Listons. they both relied and created fearsome reputations which must have chilled opponents.

Niether 'relied' on it and Liston was certainley more fearsome than Rocky. Liston was physically gigantic, enourmous fists, cold stare, links to mob, was in jail ,huge reach and power etc. while Rocky broke down his opponents over the course of a fight, simply brutalized them punching non-stop hitting where ever the hell he could whenever the hell he could.

Liston had his opponents pysched out before the fight even began while the Rock beat the confidence and heart out of fighters.

[Ren]

Niether 'relied' on it and Liston was certainley more fearsome than Rocky. Liston was physically gigantic, enourmous fists, cold stare, links to mob, was in jail ,huge reach and power etc. while Rocky broke down his opponents over the course of a fight, simply brutalized them punching non-stop hitting where ever the hell he could whenever the hell he could.

Liston had his opponents pysched out before the fight even began while the Rock beat the confidence and heart out of fighters.

well I admit there are differences, after all, Liston was considerably bigger, stronger and more physically powerful, the hyperbole surrounding Marciano is equally mistrewed - having the punching power equal to an armour piercing bullet etc, and the way his willpower is misconstrued to be superhuman.

but some posters are trying to make out that Liston relied on it in a big way, as if Marciano didnt.

[lufcrazy]

I dond't understand why people talk about liston psyching his opponents out in a negative way?

If a professional prize fighter enters the ring scared because of the opponent they're facing, that has to be construed as a positive?

If we're to believe patterson was completely psyched out and frozen, then that's because liston's in-ring performances were so ferocious he actually scared the hw champ (only paper champ by that point but champ non the less) into this "shell" now if that kind of mental prowess is not a positive, then I don't know what is!

[he grant]

But did george foreman meet the real joe frazier? There is no way on earth Frazier was the same pin point acurate, razor sharp beast who cleaned out the 1968-1971 scene. Frazier was mixing in the wrong era when he met george. Frazier, like marciano did not need the "luck of the draw" for four years against the best out there but pushed his luck after when his best was done. Frazier could never hope to be the same fighter after TFOTC, he had paid his dues up until that point.

THat's always an interesting point as Frazier was not at his best in 73 but he did have very good performances against Bugner, Quarry and of course Ali so he has far from shot as well ... that being said few believe Joe or for that matter Rocky match up well with a much larger, stronger, harder punching Foreman at any point in their careers ... Rocky was also very smart .. he knew post Moore that he was not getting younger, injuries were accumulating and if he continued to fight he would soon be an older champion fighting younger men opposed to being the young champion fighting old names ... to his credit he got out at the right time and managed to not give in to the desires of coming back ... to me Rocky's biggest accomplishment was over coming that desire and maintaining his legend ...

[Ren]

I dond't understand why people talk about liston psyching his opponents out in a negative way?

that is my main point, thank you for putting it so eloquently. I think its odd in this day and age that the black fighter is depicted as the negative monster contrasted against a heroic, supercapable white guy.

[Bummy Davis]

I am not really sold on Liston when challenged against a man that has no fear comes to win and is hungry and can inflict pain. When I was a kid Liston had the look but he did lose to a 180lb Marty Marshall and quit 2X vs Ali and later on a hungry Leotis Martin took his best and knocked him out cold. A lot of people say Liston was old and because Leotis never really did anything exceptional up to that point but....the key here is Leotis got off the floor and was not in awe of Sonny he got off the floor and went back at Sonny. I think a bully when they get in the ring with someone who has heart and power somehow mentally caves...lets face it that was Sonny's biggest kink in his Armour. I am not saying that Liston would not have his moments of success but against a great fighter with heart,power and a lack of fear I think as his history suggests he would fold.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[lufcrazy]

I am not really sold on Liston when challenged against a man that has no fear comes to win and is hungry and can inflict pain. When I was a kid Liston had the look but he did lose to a 180lb Marty Marshall and quit 2X vs Ali and later on a hungry Leotis Martin took his best and knocked him out cold. A lot of people say Liston was old and because Leotis never really did anything exceptional up to that point but....the key here is Leotis got off the floor and was not in awe of Sonny he got off the floor and went back at Sonny. I think a bully when they get in the ring with someone who has heart and power somehow mentally caves...lets face it that was Sonny's biggest kink in his Armour. I am not saying that Liston would not have his moments of success but against a great fighter with heart,power and a lack of fear I think as his history suggests he would fold.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I wouldn't judge liston on the loss to marshall nor leotis.

History shows that from 59-64 he was a force to be reckoned with which is why he had the hw (paper) champ running scared both outside and inside the ring.

[tommygun711]

I am not really sold on Liston when challenged against a man that has no fear comes to win and is hungry and can inflict pain. When I was a kid Liston had the look but he did lose to a 180lb Marty Marshall and quit 2X vs Ali and later on a hungry Leotis Martin took his best and knocked him out cold. A lot of people say Liston was old and because Leotis never really did anything exceptional up to that point but....the key here is Leotis got off the floor and was not in awe of Sonny he got off the floor and went back at Sonny. I think a bully when they get in the ring with someone who has heart and power somehow mentally caves...lets face it that was Sonny's biggest kink in his Armour. I am not saying that Liston would not have his moments of success but against a great fighter with heart,power and a lack of fear I think as his history suggests he would fold.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The "bully" theory has already been proven wrong before, Folley, Williams, Machen, and Whitehurst fought back and Liston beat them all. Besides, I think he was green vs Marshall, (he knocked out Marshall in the rematches) past it vs Ali, and even more past it vs Martin. I would never rank Liston based on those fights.

[choklab]

I dond't understand why people talk about liston psyching his opponents out in a negative way?

If a professional prize fighter enters the ring scared because of the opponent they're facing, that has to be construed as a positive?

If we're to believe patterson was completely psyched out and frozen, then that's because liston's in-ring performances were so ferocious he actually scared the hw champ (only paper champ by that point but champ non the less) into this "shell" now if that kind of mental prowess is not a positive, then I don't know what is!

Some can argue that it takes a special fighter to psyche out another great fighter to the extent the victim becomes a lesser fighter on the night. However, to my mind if the man is not great when he is beaten then a great fighter has not been beat on the night. If patterson did not "come to fight" what does it mean? Liston himself did not "come to fight" against Ali in Maine and that Ali win means nothing. How can it mean something for Liston to psyched out patterson but nothing when Ali psyched out Liston? There is a double standard going on here.

[choklab]

well I admit there are differences, after all, Liston was considerably bigger, stronger and more physically powerful, the hyperbole surrounding Marciano is equally mistrewed - having the punching power equal to an armour piercing bullet etc, and the way his willpower is misconstrued to be superhuman.

but some posters are trying to make out that Liston relied on it in a big way, as if Marciano didnt.

Some quotes taken from Angelo Dundee’s first book “I only talk winning”


page 189.


“Let me tell you, I thought cassius could do it. The public had been mesmerized by Listons two wins against Patterson. So he Kod Patterson in the first round both times. What did that mean?
Cassius was big and strong, weighing 210, could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn’t worried. Let liston worry. I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”

[he grant]

I am not really sold on Liston when challenged against a man that has no fear comes to win and is hungry and can inflict pain. When I was a kid Liston had the look but he did lose to a 180lb Marty Marshall and quit 2X vs Ali and later on a hungry Leotis Martin took his best and knocked him out cold. A lot of people say Liston was old and because Leotis never really did anything exceptional up to that point but....the key here is Leotis got off the floor and was not in awe of Sonny he got off the floor and went back at Sonny. I think a bully when they get in the ring with someone who has heart and power somehow mentally caves...lets face it that was Sonny's biggest kink in his Armour. I am not saying that Liston would not have his moments of success but against a great fighter with heart,power and a lack of fear I think as his history suggests he would fold.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Liston lost a decision to a far more experienced fighter in his eight pro fight and then to the greatest heavyweight of all time at the age of at least 34 plus coming off two years of very limited activity and then lost to Martin at close to forty and this is your case for building up Marciano over him ? YOu avoid the fact that Liston fought better fighters in their physical prime or that Sonny was a much bigger man or that Marciano's style was made for Liston ... despite your hero worship I can say with a fair degree of certainty that if the match were talking place today you would not put a cent on Rocky , fantasy hero worship aside...

[choklab]

The "bully" theory has already been proven wrong before, Folley, Williams, Machen, and Whitehurst fought back and Liston beat them all. Besides, I think he was green vs Marshall, (he knocked out Marshall in the rematches) past it vs Ali, and even more past it vs Martin. I would never rank Liston based on those fights.


Liston was not a bully, he was a great fighter. All fighters look fantastic winning one sided fights. Liston looked less than fantastical when in fights that were less than one sided. still great, just not fantastical.

[lufcrazy]

Some can argue that it takes a special fighter to psyche out another great fighter to the extent he becomes a lesser fighter on the night. However, to my mind if the man is not great when he is beaten then a great fighter has not been beat on the night. If patterson did not "come to fight" what does it mean? Liston himself did not "come to fight" against Ali in Maine and that Ali win means nothing. How can it mean something for Liston to psyched out patterson but nothing when Ali psyched out Liston? There is a double standard going on here.

when have I EVER said the ali win means nothing?

Liston psyching out patterson and subsequently obliterating him proving correct everyone's assumption he was the best hw is so blatantly a great achievement I don't need to go any further.

Ali beating Liston up for 8 rounds (1 of them whilst near blind) is obviously a tremendous victory also. Infact I'd favour Ali to beat Liston in a fantasy match (Ali from 67 v Liston from 62).

One of your problems as a poster is you make quite a lot of generalisations and apply them to an individual case. Like here you have replied to me and accused me of double standards because of some general argument you have, but ti doesn't apply in the individual argument.

If Ali is so good on the night that Liston wants out, it's a great victory. If Ali was so good defensively that Liston genuinely threw his shoulder out.... guess what? It's still a great victory.

If you are of the belief that Liston threw the fight for money, I'd ask for proof.

Mentally throwing a fight is just as much a victory for the victor as any other.

[Ren]

without the mind there is no body

[Bummy Davis]

Liston lost a decision to a far more experienced fighter in his eight pro fight and then to the greatest heavyweight of all time at the age of at least 34 plus coming off two years of very limited activity and then lost to Martin at close to forty and this is your case for building up Marciano over him ? YOu avoid the fact that Liston fought better fighters in their physical prime or that Sonny was a much bigger man or that Marciano's style was made for Liston ... despite your hero worship I can say with a fair degree of certainty that if the match were talking place today you would not put a cent on Rocky , fantasy hero worship aside...


Don't be so sure about what I would be sure of or who I would bet on I made several excellent bets in my life...You are a hero to anyone to anyone who is not white, 10 of your last posts were about race and you never back up your outlandish statements like "there were at least 10 black contenders that Benny Leonard avoided" but you wear rose colored glasses for Holmes and his avoidance of top contenders and co-champs.

I am a big believer of intestinal fortitude and how a test of it can bring out the best and worst of a fighter. The big puncher of the group you mentioned was Williams and I do not think he was an elite puncher. Liston flat out quit 2x in fights and Patterson was like a deer in the headlights...Machen was KO'd in 1 by Ingo went the distance with Sonny and Burt Whitehurst took Sonny the distance 2x vs Sonny but was KO'd by Archie Moore 2 X in the same time frame...some guys were not scared of Sonny and it was a different fight for him....I happen to like Sonny and had some close friends that new him but he quit in a few fights when things did not go the way he wanted...and that is just a fact

[McGrain]

Patterson most certainly "came to fight". He swarmed and threw leather and got KTFO. Apart from a total change of style, he had no option really. That's who he was.

The idea that Liston would fold to any great fighter he ever faced is obviously a ridiculous one.

[choklab]

One of your problems as a poster is you make quite a lot of generalisations and apply them to an individual case. Like here you have replied to me and accused me of double standards because of some general argument you have, but ti doesn't apply in the individual argument.




yes I am generalising about the established opinion that the patterson one round wins are considered great where as the first round KO Ali scored is not widely accepted as a great win. It is my view that patterson and liston were equaly poor in those defeats.

it was in reply to a subject you touched on rather than you directly:good.

[McGrain]

I happen to like Sonny and had some close friends that new him but he quit in a few fights when things did not go the way he wanted...and that is just a fact
Actually, this is very far from being "a fact", in fact they are two of the most hotly debated fights in history. Being forced to quit by the mob, being legitimately knocked out, thinking he had beaten the count when he hadn't and a legitimate injury are just some of the possibilities swirling around these two fights.

Painting it as "fact" that he "quit twice when things were going against him" is flat out bullshit.

It is your opinion, a very reasonable one and you are very much entitled to it.

But let's not get carried away with ourselves.

[McGrain]

yes I am generalising about the established opinion that the patterson one round wins are considered great where as the first round KO Ali scored is not widely accepted as a great win. It is my view that patterson and liston were equaly poor in those defeats.
The reason for the two differences is in a reasonable analysis of each fighter's attribute, namely punch resistance.

Patterson is and was regarded as having limited chin whereas Liston was considered to be pretty much un-knockoutable at the time.

Liston was and is considered a huge puncher, Ali was not, and nor is he now.

Therefore it is and was surprising to people when the granite-jawed fighter was KO'd by the non-puncher, but they were less surprised by the puncher KOing the more fragile champion.

Finally, Patterson was quite clearly semi-concious, Liston looks ludicrous.

This is not a double-standard, it is to be expected and would be re-created in any division at any level.

[Bummy Davis]

Actually, this is very far from being "a fact", in fact they are two of the most hotly debated fights in history. Being forced to quit by the mob, being legitimately knocked out, thinking he had beaten the count when he hadn't and a legitimate injury are just some of the possibilities swirling around these two fights.

Painting it as "fact" that he "quit twice when things were going against him" is flat out bullshit.

It is your opinion, a very reasonable one and you are very much entitled to it.

But let's not get carried away with ourselves.

Was it the Mob? I have heard many story's but none of them are proven to be facts. Was the first fight a shoulder injury? Was the 2nd fight the anchor punch that Ali never threw again with as much force or did Liston quit? Does anyone really know the reason why he quit ? The only fact is that he did quit.

As far as quality opponents there were a few but none I would rate as serious punchers Williams overrated and Machen and Foley were boxers...Patterson was a Champion but Floyd was totally spooked and try as he may beaten mentally, both times not to mention the most dropped Champion and previously KO'd by INGO

[McGrain]

The only fact is that he did quit.[/B]

In the first fight, that is indeed a fact.

But it is not a fact that he quit "in a few fights that were going against him." That is hugely disputed.

As far as quality opponents there were a few but none I would rate as serious punchers Williams overrated and Machen and Foley were boxers...Patterson was a Champion but Floyd was totally spooked and try as he may beaten mentally, both times not to mention the most dropped Champion and previously KO'd by INGO

Williams might be overated as a puncher, but Summerlin is probably underated.

And Williams is likely only underated in the sense that he is ranked amongst the greatest punchers of all time by Ring magazine above the likes of McGovern, Sattersfield and Lausse. He's unquestionably a very hard puncher, and this is agreed upon almost entirely by his peers, including Liston himself and George Foreman.

So, overated, yes, but only in the sense that he's likely not one of the fifty greatest punchers in history as Ring suggests.



As for this thing about Patterson being "spooked" or somehow "mentally broken", it's a myth. Patterson boxed in his normal style, arguably threw fewer punches than normal (like every other swarmer who ever met any top puncher ever), but basically looked like the peek-a-boo swarmer that he was in every sense:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The clinches are contested and he throws a handful of leads and basically looks nothing like Michael Spinks at all.

[Bummy Davis]

In the first fight, that is indeed a fact.

But it is not a fact that he quit "in a few fights that were going against him." That is hugely disputed.



Williams might be overated as a puncher, but Summerlin is probably underated.

And Williams is likely only underated in the sense that he is ranked amongst the greatest punchers of all time by Ring magazine above the likes of McGovern, Sattersfield and Lausse. He's unquestionably a very hard puncher, and this is agreed upon almost entirely by his peers, including Liston himself and George Foreman.

So, overated, yes, but only in the sense that he's likely not one of the fifty greatest punchers in history as Ring suggests.



As for this thing about Patterson being "spooked" or somehow "mentally broken", it's a myth. Patterson boxed in his normal style, arguably threw fewer punches than normal (like every other swarmer who ever met any top puncher ever), but basically looked like the peek-a-boo swarmer that he was in every sense:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The clinches are contested and he throws a handful of leads and basically looks nothing like Michael Spinks at all.

well, Pete Radermaker in his 1st pro fight dropped Floyd and so did so many other heavyweight, in fact he was dropped in so many of his top fights and defenses that I lose count and he was KO'd by INGo

Now as far as experts calling Williams a great puncher it goes to show you why so many of them no nothing. Bob Satterfield (who was supposed to have a glass jaw) fought the 31-1 Big Cat and stopped him in 3, also Keene Simmons who was KO'd in 8 by Marciano went the distance with Williams 2 years later and Simmons said Marciano hit much harder....I don't think Williams showed the true power when he moved up in class, although I would not classify him as a weak puncher I would not put him in the elite or near.

[Muchmoore]

Personally I rank Marciano ahead as a big fan of both guys. Rockys number three on my list Liston usually hovers a little around the top 5.

If head to head is a major criterion Liston could be ranked higher though other than that his resume doesn't stand up to Marcianos. Walcott, Charles, Layne, Moore, Louis etc and the old 49-0.

awesome thread btw looking forward to reading more of it.

[McGrain]

well, Pete Radermaker in his 1st pro fight dropped Floyd and so did so many other heavyweight, in fact he was dropped in so many of his top fights and defenses that I lose count and he was KO'd by INGo


Patterson was only stopped by two of the hardest punchers in history plus the greatest HW of all time on attrition. He also beat his fair share of punchers.

Now as far as experts calling Williams a great puncher it goes to show you why so many of them no nothing. Bob Satterfield (who was supposed to have a glass jaw) fought the 31-1 Big Cat and stopped him in 3, also Keene Simmons who was KO'd in 8 by Marciano went the distance with Williams 2 years later and Simmons said Marciano hit much harder....I don't think Williams showed the true power when he moved up in class, although I would not classify him as a weak puncher I would not put him in the elite or near.

I think you're pretty much alone in not classing Williams as a puncher, and that includes boxers who fought him as well as the experts you have no faith in. At some point, you just have to let go of your opinions and trust the men being punched by him, who seem to agree that he was devastating.

[he grant]

Liston said Williams was a huge puncher ...

Interestingly , Louis thought Satterfield was a bigger puncher than Liston , Marciano or Williams ...

[Seamus]

Now as far as experts calling Williams a great puncher it goes to show you why so many of them no nothing. Bob Satterfield (who was supposed to have a glass jaw) fought the 31-1 Big Cat and stopped him in 3, also Keene Simmons who was KO'd in 8 by Marciano went the distance with Williams 2 years later and Simmons said Marciano hit much harder....I don't think Williams showed the true power when he moved up in class, although I would not classify him as a weak puncher I would not put him in the elite or near.

Whoa there, cowboy.

Williams was shredded. He obviously hit harder than Marciano.

[Bummy Davis]

Patterson was only stopped by two of the hardest punchers in history plus the greatest HW of all time on attrition. He also beat his fair share of punchers.



I think you're pretty much alone in not classing Williams as a puncher, and that includes boxers who fought him as well as the experts you have no faith in. At some point, you just have to let go of your opinions and trust the men being punched by him, who seem to agree that he was devastating.

Well if I am pretty much alone let me tell you what I think supports my opinion and then maybe you can tell me the victory over what top contender supports yours

The 31-1 Big Cat fought the "Glass Jaw" Bob Satterfield and was KO'd in 3

He was KO'd 2X by Liston

But lets look at some of his wins and who went the distance with him

Keene Simmons (who Marciano KO'd in 8)
Frankie Daniels went the distance with him 3X but in the same time period was KO'd by George Chuvalo, Santo Amonti and Sonny Liston in 1

He went the distance with Billy Daniels who was Ko'd by Karl Mildenburger and Oscar Bonavena in 1 ( in the same time frame)

Big Cat went the distance with Howie Turner,Wayne Bethea,

He went the distance with the much KO'd Tommy Fields, he went the distance with Sonny Moore (who was Ko'd in 1 by Franco DePiccoli in last fight)

He could not KO Robert Davala (who was Ko'd by Jimmy Ellis and Joe Bugner and Jose Louis Garcia

He went the distance Mel Turnbow ( who was Ko'd by Buster Mathis,Hubert Hilton, and James Beatie in the same time frame

Big Cat also went the distance with Charlie Polite who was KO'd by light heavyweight Bob Foster, Jack O'Halloran and Joe Bugner

He went full ten with Eddie Machen in a draw

He did however stop Ernie Terrell but lost a decision in the rematch.

So if I am alone sorry to say but I judge punchers by who they KO'd not by the fighters that beat him. I have an open mind maybe you can tell me the victory over what top contender supports your opinion that he is in the elite list of all time punchers.

[McGrain]

Well if I am pretty much alone let me tell you what I think supports my opinion and then maybe you can tell me the victory over what top contender supports yours

You can be very powerful and never beat a top contender.

Why do you think The Ring rank him as one of the fifty hardest punchers pound for pound in history?

Why do you think Foreman rates him so highly as a puncher?

Why do you think Liston rates him so highly as a puncher?

Why do you think Terrell rates him so highly as a puncher?

Why do you think the press, generally, rated him so highly as a puncher?

[choklab]

Why do you think the press, generally, rated him so highly as a puncher?

You can be a biggest puncher of all time but being able to land big punches on elite fighters is what cuts the mustard. williams was a big exciting heavyweight, he just was not ever a world beater.

[choklab]

The reason for the two differences is in a reasonable analysis of each fighter's attribute, namely punch resistance.

.


On paper the three 1round wins look equaly great. on film the losers look equaly poor. the winners did not have to try very hard.

[lufcrazy]

The difference is only in the losers. Patterson looked like he was obliterated. Liston looks like he quit.

Both liston and ali deserve huge credit for these victories. One beat his man physically whilst the other beat his man mentally.

Choklab if you want to believe that liston was so enormously frightening that he had the paper champ quaking in his boots two fights in a row to a degree that floyd was rendered into a mere shell of himself, than quite frankly you hold sonny in a higher regard than I do.

You're talking about a professional prize fighter, one who was only ever bettered by liston and ali despite being very undersized for the division he fought in.

So if you want to believe that liston was able to mentally nullify such a great fighter before stepping foot in the ring, then I have no choice but to label you a liston nuthugger.

[choklab]

Choklab if you want to believe that liston was so enormously frightening that he had the paper champ quaking in his boots two fights in a row to a degree that floyd was rendered into a mere shell of himself, than quite frankly you hold sonny in a higher regard than I do.

You're talking about a professional prize fighter, one who was only ever bettered by liston and ali despite being very undersized for the division he fought in.

So if you want to believe that liston was able to mentally nullify such a great fighter before stepping foot in the ring, then I have no choice but to label you a liston nuthugger.


Now that would be a label! I do like Liston, but that would be geeting carried away. jokes aside, I dont think patterson was frightened I subscribe more to angelo dundee's maxim about being too tense to perform corectly.


"I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”

[McGrain]

You can be a biggest puncher of all time but being able to land big punches on elite fighters is what cuts the mustard. williams was a big exciting heavyweight, he just was not ever a world beater.

Exactly my point.

On paper the three 1round wins look equaly great. on film the losers look equaly poor. the winners did not have to try very hard.

That is really neither here or there relative to the original point that you made.

[lufcrazy]

Now that would be a label! I do like Liston, but that would be geeting carried away. jokes aside, I dont think patterson was frightened I subscribe more to angelo dundee's maxim about being too tense to perform corectly.


"I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”

Then you and dundee hold liston in a higher regard than I do.

[McGrain]

I do like Liston.
:lol: come on, it's not Let's Pretend. 80% of your posts are running down Liston, "ad******g" how people view him is your admitted reason for posting here so often. Everyone knows what that means, there's no reason to play.

[choklab]

:lol: come on, it's not Let's Pretend. 80% of your posts are running down Liston, .


Its less to do with running Liston down, more about disagreeing with established opinion. I can honestly say I enjoy watching Liston fights. we all get irritated with nuthugging but at the end of the day Liston was an exciting great fighter. There is no getting away from that. It is more the overly simplistic notion that swarmer v swarmer = big swarmer wins that gets my goat. It is my firm view that great fighters are hard to beat.

[lufcrazy]

Its less to do with running Liston down, more about disagreeing with established opinion. I can honestly say I enjoy watching Liston fights. we all get irritated with nuthugging but at the end of the day Liston was an exciting great fighter. There is no getting away from that. It is more the overly simplistic notion that swarmer v swarmer = big swarmer wins that gets my goat. It is my firm view that great fighters are hard to beat.

That is an overly simplistic view.

Styles make fights. The right gameplan an the right set of attributes can lead to a great fighter looking average.

Many greats have lost in fights were they were outclassed by a greater foe or even a lesser foe.

[choklab]

That is an overly simplistic view.

Styles make fights. The right gameplan an the right set of attributes can lead to a great fighter looking average.

Many greats have lost in fights were they were outclassed by a greater foe or even a lesser foe.


yes, this is also what I am saying. styles, desire, gameplans and focus make fights. Also career timing make fights.

Liston beating marciano just because foreman beat Frazier is crazy - I dont know if you personaly believe this but many say it even though it is entirely simplistic ..As we know Frazier was not marciano anymore than Liston was not foreman. In fact jamaca Frazier was not even TFOTC Frazier - but that is besides the point.

[lufcrazy]

yes, this is also what I am saying. styles, desire, gameplans and focus make fights. Also career timing make fights.

Liston beating marciano just because foreman beat Frazier is crazy - I dont know if you personaly believe this but many say it even though it is entirely simplistic ..As we know Frazier was not marciano anymore than Liston was not foreman. In fact jamaca Frazier was not even TFOTC Frazier - but that is besides the point.

I'd pick liston to beat rocky purely because I think rocky will get hit far too much, and is far too small to take the kind of punishment liston will dish out if rocky ever manages to get beyond his jab and make the fight competitive.

Now I don't have a clue what you're on about with the foreman - frazier equals liston - rocky comparison. No idea at all.

But i'd also pick foreman to beat frazier because he twice wiped the floor with him. Not sure how you get from that to liston - rocky though? What are you talking about?

[McGrain]

It is more the overly simplistic notion that swarmer v swarmer = big swarmer wins that gets my goat.

...you think Liston is a swarmer?

[choklab]

I'd pick liston to beat rocky purely because I think rocky will get hit far too much, and is far too small to take the kind of punishment liston will dish out if rocky ever manages to get beyond his jab and make the fight competitive.

a prime rocky would always be competitive against any great fighter just as Harry greb was because marcinao was a great fighter who won competitive fights. Liston would find it harder to find the room to land his jab on rocky than he did on upright taller fighters who stood off him. would you say Marciano wasnt as durable as willie besmanoff?


Now I don't have a clue what you're on about with the foreman - frazier equals liston - rocky comparison. No idea at all.

I was using it as a simplistic example of how many people think marciano v Liston would pan out. You must have also heard that is a common belief that because foreman beat Frazier so easily then Liston would do the same to marciano?

Frazier and marcinao were two different types of fighters.

Frazier was a rhythm fighter, an energiser bunny with a pin point left hook he could double up and land at any range. He weaved his head as much to transfer his weight from one foot to the other to launch a shot as opposed to avoiding a punch. If his head went down it was coming back up even if your punch was on its way.

Marciano countered his way in. where as Frazier led.

Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Frazier met you with a punch, it was already coming.

With Frazier what you saw was what you got. Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming. Both could fight all day but only rocky made his openings. Frazier had one gear flat out, straight at you.


But i'd also pick foreman to beat frazier because he twice wiped the floor with him. Not sure how you get from that to liston - rocky though? What are you talking about?

i think prime frazier is harder to beat than Foreman found him. The odds were based on frazier (because he was still unbeaten) being prime but he was not. The majority felt prime frazier would beat a young green george. nobody picked foreman going into their first fight. It turned out to be a calculated gamble that paid off for team Foreman because the green Foreman could walk into frazier without getting hit on the way in as he would have been had Frazier been at his best. career timing at its best.

[lufcrazy]

a prime rocky would be always be competitive against any great fighter just as Harry greb was because marcinao was a great fighter who won competitive fights. Liston would find it harder to find the room to land his jab on rocky than he did on upright taller fighters who stood off him. would you say Marciano wasnt as durable as willie besmanoff?




I was using it as a simplistic example of how many people think marciano v Liston would pan out. You must have also heard that is a common belief that because foreman beat Frazier so easily then Liston would do the same to marciano?




i think prime frazier is harder to beat than Foreman found him. The odds were based on frazier (because he was still unbeaten) being prime but he was not. The majority felt prime frazier would beat a young green george. It turned out to be a calculated gamble that paid off for team Foreman because the green Foreman could walk into frazier without getting hit on the way in as he would have been had Frazier been at his best.

you're talking bollox for the most part here.

who cares about what a general simplification is? a debate is between two individuals. You seem to live in this fantasy world where this a "team liston" all spouting the same bollox and you turn up on your steed of impeccable logic showing why this is not the case.

I never said ali's victory over liston was not great, I never said foreman beating frazier means liston beats marciano, I never said marciano was less durable than fukin besamnoff.

You chat utter shite.

Thinking rocky would always be competitive is quite naive as well. Greb wasn't always in competitive fights. Infact greb highlights a good example because the first tunney fighting was, by all accounts, an absolute pasting. So bad that tunney nearly retired. So Tunney, despite being great, lost in one sided fashion.

I have no trouble imagining rocky having the shit kicked out of him by a peak lennox lewis who outweighs something rotten and has an edge in the skill department as well.

Styles make fights. Being great does not negate this basic boxing truth.

Especially in the HW division where one punch can end things in an instant. Or any division for that matter. Take Kalambay against nunn, two very technically sound boxers both in their prime at the top of the division facing off. It wasn't a competitive fight.

Rocky Marciano, and here is the sad truth, would be classed as a big light heavyweight today. Or a small cruiser weight. Any small cruiserweight going up against even today's champion, wladimir, is getting pasted. Does it stop them being great? no it doesn't.

You say Liston winning fights in one sided fashion as if it is a negative, are you really stupid enough to think that had he been a bit worse than he was, hence making his fights less one sided, would somehow make him better?

[choklab]

...you think Liston is a swarmer?

No he was not a swarmer. He used jabs aggresivly, there was a lot of craft within Liston but he was all about beating down the other fellow. I should have used the word "powerhouse". powerhouse v powerhouse sounds a bit gay though..

[choklab]

You say Liston winning fights in one sided fashion as if it is a negative, are you really stupid enough to think that had he been a bit worse than he was, hence making his fights less one sided, would somehow make him better?


It would tick a few more boxes for me had Listons fights been a bit harder. some one said on here one time that being a knockout artist can have its pitfalls in that a seasoning process can be bypassed. I think liston was harmed somewhat by lack of competitive rounds from machen to ali. a fighter can go soft having too easy a time.

[choklab]

I never said ali's victory over liston was not great, I never said foreman beating frazier means liston beats marciano, ,

And I never said you did. I was asking if you were aware there appears to be lazy, almost established opinions on those subjects.

[choklab]

Rocky Marciano, and here is the sad truth, would be classed as a big light heavyweight today. Or a small cruiser weight. Any small cruiserweight going up against even today's champion, wladimir, is getting pasted.

Rocky marciano was a heavyweight when Liston turned pro. In this debate rocky was a real heavyweight. If you want to talk about today, well that is another matter. I have a theory that there is no such thing as a natural cruiserweight because it is an imbetween weight class betwen classic 200lb 15 round heavyweights and lightheavyweight a division of tall middleweights. superheavyweights have always existed -and Liston was not one of them. today there are classic heavyweights taking up bodybuilding as well as genuine giants. It has nothing to do with Liston v marcinao.

Does it stop them being great? no it doesn't.


exactly.

[lufcrazy]

Rocky marciano was a heavyweight when Liston turned pro. In this debate rocky was a real heavyweight. If you want to talk about today, well that is another matter. I have a theory that there is no such thing as a natural cruiserweight because it is an imbetween weight class betwen classic 200lb 15 round heavyweights and lightheavyweight a division of tall middleweights. superheavyweights have always existed -and Liston was not one of them. today there are classic heavyweights taking up bodybuilding as well as genuine giants. It has nothing to do with Liston v marcinao.



exactly.

and? he still weighed 180+ pounds on fight night. he's giving up too much weight against a man who's too skilled for the diffeence to be a non-factor.

Fitzsimmons was officially a HW when he fought Jeffries, but ti doesn't change the fact that today he'd be seen as a small MW.

My comments about SuperHeayweights was because you said rocky would always make a fight competitive and I contend that against a skilled super heavy he wouldn't be competitive.

Against Liston of course he would be, but ultimately his competitiveness would see him take too many punches and get stopped, imo.

[Bummy Davis]

a prime rocky would always be competitive against any great fighter just as Harry greb was because marcinao was a great fighter who won competitive fights. Liston would find it harder to find the room to land his jab on rocky than he did on upright taller fighters who stood off him. would you say Marciano wasnt as durable as willie besmanoff?




I was using it as a simplistic example of how many people think marciano v Liston would pan out. You must have also heard that is a common belief that because foreman beat Frazier so easily then Liston would do the same to marciano?

Frazier and marcinao were two different types of fighters.

Frazier was a rhythm fighter, an energiser bunny with a pin point left hook he could double up and land at any range. He weaved his head as much to transfer his weight from one foot to the other to launch a shot as opposed to avoiding a punch. If his head went down it was coming back up even if your punch was on its way.

Marciano countered his way in. where as Frazier led.

Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Frazier met you with a punch, it was already coming.

With Frazier what you saw was what you got. Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming. Both could fight all day but only rocky made his openings. Frazier had one gear flat out, straight at you.




i think prime frazier is harder to beat than Foreman found him. The odds were based on frazier (because he was still unbeaten) being prime but he was not. The majority felt prime frazier would beat a young green george. nobody picked foreman going into their first fight. It turned out to be a calculated gamble that paid off for team Foreman because the green Foreman could walk into frazier without getting hit on the way in as he would have been had Frazier been at his best. career timing at its best.

Intelligent Post :good

[choklab]

and? he still weighed 180+ pounds on fight night. he's giving up too much weight against a man who's too skilled for the diffeence to be a non-factor.

Fitzsimmons was officially a HW when he fought Jeffries, but ti doesn't change the fact that today he'd be seen as a small MW.

My comments about SuperHeayweights was because you said rocky would always make a fight competitive and I contend that against a skilled super heavy he wouldn't be competitive.

Against Liston of course he would be, but ultimately his competitiveness would see him take too many punches and get stopped, imo.

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

Marciano countered his way in. Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. .

Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming.

marciano was horrible to fight. Liston would be a hard opponent for marciano but it works both ways if both are prime.

[Bummy Davis]

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

Marciano countered his way in. Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. .

Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming.

Solid Post :good

[lufcrazy]

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

Marciano countered his way in. Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. .

Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming.

Again with this competitive nonsense.

Rocky had competitive fights because he wasn't as dominant as liston. Whilst I do appreciate rocky fought better opposition prime for prime, Liston was supremely dominant in his victories which is why he, in your opinion, was able to psyche opponents out before they stepped foot in the ring.

As I say, I don't rate him as high as you, so I don't think he had this super human power to scare everyone he fought bar ali.

Ofcourse the rocky fight would be competitive, rockt threw punches in bunches and had an iron chin so he would bother liston in the early stages if he took chances to get beyond the jab. But once he's in close he's gonna be exchanging hooks with sonny and he wouldn't have a speed advantage nor a power advantage. No-one can take a plethora of shots from sonny liston, no-one. Eventually the toil would tell and rocky would succumb to the power and strength of liston. Not to mention when they're not exchanging Liston would be pounding with his jab.

I don't know why you put a big emphasis on liston having to punch down on an opponent. He had no issues with patterson who's better defensively than rocky (imo). Infact his punches seemed much more monstrous because of the leverage he could put on them. This wasn't like against ingo when he got caught by a perfect counter and never given chance to recover, he was bombarded and obliterated and that's because of his size.

IMO if rocky stays on the outside he loses a wide decision because Liston has a superior jab. If rocky comes inside he eventually gets stopped because Liston hits harder and just as fast as rocky did.

If this was in the early days of boxing than I'd probably favour Rocky to outlast any heavyweight providing he could learn to box safe for the first 30 rounds or so because his stamina and conditioning was amazing considering how much he put into every shot. but on a limited rounds fight where, as the aggressor, he has to engage then he can't realistically be favoured against sonny.

Ofcourse the fight never did and never will happen so any opinion is as credible than the other but i think styles favour Liston here.

[choklab]

No-one can take a plethora of shots from sonny liston, no-one. Eventually the toil would tell and rocky would succumb to the power and strength of liston. Not to mention when they're not exchanging Liston would be pounding with his jab.
.

Liston was indeed a heavyhanded puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever.

Liston would not be landing unanswerd combinations, marciano would be fireing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. without forward momentum full power is not acheived. Liston would still hurt marciano but rocky hurt all the men he fought too. rocky was good at landing first.

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. power and strength can be nuetralised against an awkward opponent.

[LittleRed]

Sometimes because we've never seen something happen we assume it couldn't. Just because Rocky was never muscled or beaten down we think it could never happen. But he never fought anybody Liston's size excluding an old Louis. Back to the op's question... Probably not. Unless you rank h2h a the most important feature of a fighter. And maybe not even then.

[lufcrazy]

Liston was indeed a heavyhanded puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever.

Liston would not be landing unanswerd combinations, marciano would be fireing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. without forward momentum full power is not acheived. Liston would still hurt marciano but rocky hurt all the men he fought too. rocky was good at landing first.

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. power and strength can be nuetralised against an awkward opponent.

You're starting to see sense now, rocky will force his way in. Once inside the two will be exchanging heavy shots. I think everyone can agree this is a likely scenario that rocky will get beyond liston's jab and force them to exchange.

The question is, when liston and rocky are exchanging heavy shots who do you think will come off worse? The great small man or the great big man?

I know who i'd bet my money on.

[choklab]

Sometimes because we've never seen something happen we assume it couldn't. Just because Rocky was never muscled or beaten down we think it could never happen. But he never fought anybody Liston's size excluding an old Louis.

Liston did not fight anyone as unusual as marciano either. rocky and sonny fought within roughly the same times, marciano was an elite heavyweight from early to mid 1950s and Liston late 50s early 60s they did not miss each other by much. Oposite ends of the same era where nothing much had changed. overall most heavyweights were 6 foot 195lb throughout. Marciano sucsesful with disadvantages in size against better oponents and Liston was sucsessful with advantages in size against lesser opponents. would you say the smaller guy who beats better fighters is a certanty to lose to the bigger guy who beats up lesser guys smaller than he, not all of whom came to fight?

[choklab]

The question is, when liston and rocky are exchanging heavy shots who do you think will come off worse? .

the one who was knocked out more times in real life.

[choklab]

I know who i'd bet my money on.


the one with better championship form?

[lufcrazy]

the one who was knocked out more times in real life.

You're in trolling mode today I see.

I guess you believe rocky comes out on top trading against louis, foreman, lewis, frazier, tyson, wlad, holyfield, dempsey etc.

I can't be arsed with the conversation any more. You're right: rocky beats everyone in history because he never lost and they did. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[LittleRed]

Well liston also best a guy who was bigger in the form of Cleveland Williams, a heavy hitter albeit one with the chin of a middleweight. And while we can argue that's Liston opponents we're lesser (and I agree that they were) they were also closer to their prime. But to answer the question no its not automatic that just because Sonny is the bigger man he'll pummel marciano. In fact we never really saw Liston get up off the canvas to win or go a full 15 like he might have to against the Rock. So nothing is certain.

[he grant]

You're in trolling mode today I see.

I guess you believe rocky comes out on top trading against louis, foreman, lewis, frazier, tyson, wlad, holyfield, dempsey etc.

I can't be arsed with the conversation any more. You're right: rocky beats everyone in history because he never lost and they did. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Don't forget how he had that something extra, that conditioning, that will to win at all costs ... that extra something that warriors like Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, Sam Langford and so many others lacked that defies all logic, physical and stylistic disadvantages aside ... :lol:

[Ren]

Don't forget how he had that something extra, that conditioning, that will to win at all costs ... that extra something that warriors like Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, Sam Langford and so many others lacked that defies all logic, physical and stylistic disadvantages aside ... :lol:

lol

or is it cos they is black.:rasta

[choklab]

You're in trolling mode today I see.

I guess you believe rocky comes out on top trading against louis, foreman, lewis, frazier, tyson, wlad, holyfield, dempsey etc.
.


Marciano has a strong resume but the man was not invincible, no man was. I just think at championship level marciano was more proven and stylisticly problematic for Liston.

[McGrain]

Marciano has a strong resume but the man was not invincible, no man was. I just think at championship level marciano was more proven and stylisticly problematic for Liston.

Yeah, he's much more proven on knockout's recieved and championship form than EVERY fighter, is luf's point.

In other words, if you are legitimising them as reasons for picking Rocky over Liston, you can legitimise them as reasons for picking Rocky over anyone. It was a rather clever if convoluted way of pointing out that your reasoning is bad.

[choklab]

Yeah, he's much more proven on knockout's recieved and championship form than EVERY fighter, is luf's point.

In other words, if you are legitimising them as reasons for picking Rocky over Liston, you can legitimise them as reasons for picking Rocky over anyone. It was a rather clever if convoluted way of pointing out that your reasoning is bad.

If I have been clever it was only subconsciously!:good
I would give many elite champions a 60-40 chance of winning fights against Marciano. Joe Louis, Ali, gene Tunney maybe even Holmes. Just not Liston even though I would expect Liston to start favourite.
getting back to the match up I just think rocky would be awkward and land punches on Liston - it would be a hard fight for Liston, IMO his hardest.

[lufcrazy]

Yeah, he's much more proven on knockout's recieved and championship form than EVERY fighter, is luf's point.

In other words, if you are legitimising them as reasons for picking Rocky over Liston, you can legitimise them as reasons for picking Rocky over anyone. It was a rather clever if convoluted way of pointing out that your reasoning is bad.

:good nail on the head.

[choklab]

:good nail on the head.

How come I dont mind you thinking Liston beats Marciano to a standstll and keep him at range with jabs but you resort to saying I am so biased about marciano that I think he beats everybody just because I think sonny would find rocky stylisticly awkward and hard to nail with a jab? taking away the trump card of being more proven at top level I still think rocky is all wrong for Liston and has a better chin. whats the problem?

[Ren]

How come I dont mind you thinking Liston beats Marciano to a standstll and keep him at range with jabs but you resort to saying I am so biased about marciano that I think he beats everybody just because I think sonny would find rocky stylisticly awkward and hard to nail with a jab? taking away the trump card of being more proven at top level I still think rocky is all wrong for Liston and has a better chin. whats the problem?

because you have provided no reason why Marciano is such a nightmare for Sonny, other than his bobbing and weaving which lots of opponents tried and failed at.

Wheras Sonny is a nightmare for Marciano because of a demon jab, a large height and reach advantage that augments the demon jab to something even nastier, an obvious power advantage and all outside Listons prime. God forbid that then still reigning champion Rocky stepped into the ring with a prime late twentysomething Liston, he would get shit kicked out of him.

[lufcrazy]

How come I dont mind you thinking Liston beats Marciano to a standstll and keep him at range with jabs but you resort to saying I am so biased about marciano that I think he beats everybody just because I think sonny would find rocky stylisticly awkward and hard to nail with a jab? taking away the trump card of being more proven at top level I still think rocky is all wrong for Liston and has a better chin. whats the problem?

You said you favour the man who's never been knocked out and the man with the best form.

You can apply that argument for rocky over everyone. As you say, it's your trump card.

Rocky beats everyone, ever.

[McGrain]

If I have been clever it was only subconsciously!:good
I would give many elite champions a 60-40 chance of winning fights against Marciano. Joe Louis, Ali, gene Tunney maybe even Holmes. Just not Liston even though I would expect Liston to start favourite.
getting back to the match up I just think rocky would be awkward and land punches on Liston - it would be a hard fight for Liston, IMO his hardest.

Nothing wrong with any of that.

[choklab]

because you have provided no reason why Marciano is such a nightmare for Sonny, other than his bobbing and weaving which lots of opponents tried and failed at.

Wheras Sonny is a nightmare for Marciano because of a demon jab, a large height and reach advantage that augments the demon jab to something even nastier, an obvious power advantage and all outside Listons prime. God forbid that then still reigning champion Rocky stepped into the ring with a prime late twentysomething Liston, he would get shit kicked out of him.

Liston was indeed a heavy-handed puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. Marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever. Not saying it is impossible but to keep rocky outside one would need faster feet than Liston. Rocky did not expose himself on the outside, he did not swarm for the sake of swarming until he had the edge in range close up.

Liston would not be landing unanswered combinations, Marciano would be firing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. Liston would find that without forward momentum full power is not achieved. Liston would still hurt Marciano but rocky hurt all the men he fought too. rocky was good at landing first so I would think Liston could become cautious.. power and strength can be neutralised against an awkward opponent. This would be a real possibility for both..

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. Marciano had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Liston would come in but struggle to find room inside then get hit back
Both Liston and Marciano had two handed power but I think a frustrated Liston being crowded up close, nuetralised of his own power and frustrated could be at a disadvantage.

Marciano was horrible to fight and more experienced than Liston. Sonny would be a hard opponent for Marciano too but it works both ways if both are prime. Once they both start swapping punches I think Marciano would win the exchanges, he was harder to hit with consecutive punches and also had a better chin.
　
rocky and sonny fought within roughly the same times, opposite ends of the same era where nothing much had changed. overall most heavyweights were 6 foot 195lb throughout. Marciano successful with disadvantages in size against better opponents and Liston was successful with advantages in size against lesser opponents. would you say the smaller guy who beats better fighters is a certainty to lose to the bigger guy who beats up lesser guys smaller than he?

Now, mr ren how was all that for offering many reason of "why marciano is such a nightmare for Liston"?

[choklab]

As you say, it's your trump card.

Rocky beats everyone, ever.

This is not the case. the case I make for rocky is purly down to stylistic factors IMO. re post #182

[Ren]

Liston was indeed a heavy-handed puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. Marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever. Not saying it is impossible but to keep rocky outside one would need faster feet than Liston. Rocky did not expose himself on the outside, he did not swarm for the sake of swarming until he had the edge in range close up. Sonny fought well on the inside too, he wasnt limited to just a killer jab. He crushed people harder than Marciano when they got close, hence the faster knockout power he had. I dont see why you thinki Marciano has an advantage there. He is the weaker one.

Liston would not be landing unanswered combinations, Marciano would be firing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. so would Liston

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. Marciano had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. and Liston thrived on people who stayed closeto him. Not sure Rocky has an advantage there either.


Both Liston and Marciano had two handed power but I think a frustrated Liston being crowded up close, nuetralised of his own power and frustrated could be at a disadvantage. only ever seen Liston frustrated by Ali, who would equally frustrate Marciano too, waaaay to fast for Rock to keep up with despite the Rocky nuthuggers claims.

Marciano was horrible to fight and more experienced than Liston. was Liston not horrible to fight either then? He was no picnic, mate, I can tell you.
Marciano started pro boxing VERY late and had a tiny amateur career, so he hardly qualifies for more experience, comparable to Sonnys late start.



Sonny would be a hard opponent for Marciano too but it works both ways if both are prime. Once they both start swapping punches I think Marciano would win the exchanges, he was harder to hit with consecutive punches and also had a better chin. you are welcome to 'think' Marciano would win exchanges.
　
rocky and sonny fought within roughly the same times, opposite ends of the same era where nothing much had changed. overall most heavyweights were 6 foot 195lb throughout. Marciano successful with disadvantages in size against better opponents and Liston was successful with advantages in size against lesser opponents. would you say the smaller guy who beats better fighters is a certainty to lose to the bigger guy who beats up lesser guys smaller than he? Marciano's best wins are on the contrary against smaller opponents than Listons, though they have both knocked out big opponents. Although Maricano faced marginally better opposition than Sonny, he fought 'excellent' lower weight fighters who were lessened to merely 'very good' at heavyweight. He struggled with them. Liston did not, bar Ali who would wreck Rocky anyway.

[choklab]

Sonny fought well on the inside too, he wasnt limited to just a killer jab. He crushed people harder than Marciano when they got close, hence the faster knockout power he had. I dont see why you thinki Marciano has an advantage there. He is the weaker one..

weaker in a stregth sence but not ring sence. Marciano could cause the kind of mauling tangle that would frustrate Liston. There is no discounting this possibilty.

and Liston thrived on people who stayed closeto him. Not sure Rocky has an advantage there either..

If marciano is landing he makes a better impresion than cleveland williams and burt whithurst did.



only ever seen Liston frustrated by Ali, who would equally frustrate Marciano too, waaaay to fast for Rock to keep up with despite the Rocky nuthuggers claims..

take a look at the burt whitehurst and machen fights Liston was frustrated. Yes they all aproached Liston differently to how rocky would but their succsess angered Liston.

was Liston not horrible to fight either then? He was no picnic, mate, I can tell you.
Marciano started pro boxing VERY late and had a tiny amateur career, so he hardly qualifies for more experience, comparable to Sonnys late start..


Liston would be a bad fight for marciano, but it is a bad fight for Liston too.


you are welcome to 'think' Marciano would win exchanges..

and you thinking liston would win exchanges also. Rocky wont be freezing up and standing stock still once Liston unloads.
　
Marciano's best wins are on the contrary against smaller opponents than Listons, though they have both knocked out big opponents. Although Maricano faced marginally better opposition than Sonny, he fought 'excellent' lower weight fighters who were lessened to merely 'very good' at heavyweight. He struggled with them. Liston did not, bar Ali who would wreck Rocky anyway.


Sonny struggled with summerlin - a good fighter who I have seen film of. The bigger fighters Liston faced were not in rockys class and often not bigger than liston himself. sonny was outweighed only a handfull of times. Rocky almoat 30 times. I would say walcott and charles were better than "very good" at heavyweight.

[lufcrazy]

At best rocky can hope to drag liston into a war on the inside. I think we agree there choklab.

I'm saying if the two are trading, on the inside, i'd fully expect liston to gain the upper hand.

Ofcourse there's always the possibility that rocky lands a perfect shot and knocks sonny out, but that aside I think liston is too big, powerful and strong to lose an exchange on the inside.

Against someone much quicker like louis or tyson, he could take too many blows before coming back with his own. But against rocky I don't see a speed advantage nor a skill advantage. I think comes down to who has the better punch/chin ratio in this fight and that is liston for me.

No 180+ pound swarmer is going to beat sonny.

[choklab]

At best rocky can hope to drag liston into a war on the inside. I think we agree there choklab.

I'm saying if the two are trading, on the inside, i'd fully expect liston to gain the upper hand.

Ofcourse there's always the possibility that rocky lands a perfect shot and knocks sonny out, but that aside I think liston is too big, powerful and strong to lose an exchange on the inside.

Against someone much quicker like louis or tyson, he could take too many blows before coming back with his own. But against rocky I don't see a speed advantage nor a skill advantage. I think comes down to who has the better punch/chin ratio in this fight and that is liston for me.

No 180+ pound swarmer is going to beat sonny.


That’s fair enough if that is how you see it but Marciano was more than just a 180 pound swarmer. If that were the case I would normally agree with you. Marciano was not a regular swarmer at all. Rocky was an awkward pressure fighter with two handed power and top durability. Typically swarmers do not counter or feint their way in. typical swarmers punch their way in at range and follow a rhythmic pattern, often only have one handed power and are easily picked off by boxers with better reach and size but Marciano was not easy to pick off at all. power came from both guns. Rocky feinted and drew opponents down into his range then swarmed. There was no rhythm or pattern and few openings to exploit against rocky for the classy opponents with faster hands than Liston that marciano met in real life .
　
Liston led with power shots. His left jab was a power shot - he leaned in with everything on it. His jab set everything up especially the short hook that came off his jab. If everything comes off listons jab what happens if he finds marciano hard to hit with a jab? sure he has the short hook but I don’t think he will lead with it, if the jab misses marciano is already throwing back. If the jab lands first rocky takes it but the next punch wont land and rockys already throwing again. If Liston uses his short hook as a lead weapon he will be right up where marciano reaches him also. The long lead uppercut Liston used on patterson would not land on Marciano at range because of the differences in stance between floyd and rocky. This is not to say sonny cant put marciano over, of course he can but I think marciano can land on sonny at least as often as Liston lands on rocky. there is more chance IMO sonny gets overwhelmed than vice versa.

[Bummy Davis]

Liston was indeed a heavy-handed puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. Marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever. Not saying it is impossible but to keep rocky outside one would need faster feet than Liston. Rocky did not expose himself on the outside, he did not swarm for the sake of swarming until he had the edge in range close up.

Liston would not be landing unanswered combinations, Marciano would be firing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. Liston would find that without forward momentum full power is not achieved. Liston would still hurt Marciano but rocky hurt all the men he fought too. rocky was good at landing first so I would think Liston could become cautious.. power and strength can be neutralised against an awkward opponent. This would be a real possibility for both..

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. Marciano had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Liston would come in but struggle to find room inside then get hit back
Both Liston and Marciano had two handed power but I think a frustrated Liston being crowded up close, nuetralised of his own power and frustrated could be at a disadvantage.

Marciano was horrible to fight and more experienced than Liston. Sonny would be a hard opponent for Marciano too but it works both ways if both are prime. Once they both start swapping punches I think Marciano would win the exchanges, he was harder to hit with consecutive punches and also had a better chin.
　
rocky and sonny fought within roughly the same times, opposite ends of the same era where nothing much had changed. overall most heavyweights were 6 foot 195lb throughout. Marciano successful with disadvantages in size against better opponents and Liston was successful with advantages in size against lesser opponents. would you say the smaller guy who beats better fighters is a certainty to lose to the bigger guy who beats up lesser guys smaller than he?

Excellent points...the thing is most people think Marciano is Frazier, while they were completely different fighter, Marciano fought low and back and even some of the best jabbers could not land without given themselves exposure to Rocky's unorthodox and rhythm breaking power. Also Marciano had a 2 fisted offense while Frazier mainly relied on his left hook. Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano and it could be said that Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston but Marciano was hit by pinpoint punchers with power that were Liston's size or bigger. Would Marciano be in a tough fight yes but I think the biggest factor IMO would be Marciano's lack of fear in this one but That's just my take on it.

[Bummy Davis]

That’s fair enough if that is how you see it but Marciano was more than just a 180 pound swarmer. If that were the case I would normally agree with you. Marciano was not a regular swarmer at all. Rocky was an awkward pressure fighter with two handed power and top durability. Typically swarmers do not counter or feint their way in. typical swarmers punch their way in at range and follow a rhythmic pattern, often only have one handed power and are easily picked off by boxers with better reach and size but Marciano was not easy to pick off at all. power came from both guns. Rocky feinted and drew opponents down into his range then swarmed. There was no rhythm or pattern and few openings to exploit against rocky for the classy opponents with faster hands than Liston that marciano met in real life .
　
Liston led with power shots. His left jab was a power shot - he leaned in with everything on it. His jab set everything up especially the short hook that came off his jab. If everything comes off listons jab what happens if he finds marciano hard to hit with a jab? sure he has the short hook but I don’t think he will lead with it, if the jab misses marciano is already throwing back. If the jab lands first rocky takes it but the next punch wont land and rockys already throwing again. If Liston uses his short hook as a lead weapon he will be right up where marciano reaches him also. The long lead uppercut Liston used on patterson would not land on Marciano at range because of the differences in stance between floyd and rocky. This is not to say sonny cant put marciano over, of course he can but I think marciano can land on sonny at least as often as Liston lands on rocky. there is more chance IMO sonny gets overwhelmed than vice versa.


I see it this way but not everyone gets Rocky

[choklab]

...the thing is most people think Marciano is Frazier, while they were completely different fighter, Marciano fought low and back and even some of the best jabbers could not land without given themselves exposure to Rocky's unorthodox and rhythm breaking power. Also Marciano had a 2 fisted offense while Frazier mainly relied on his left hook. Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano and it could be said that Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston but Marciano was hit by pinpoint punchers with power that were Liston's size or bigger. Would Marciano be in a tough fight yes but I think the biggest factor IMO would be Marciano's lack of fear in this one but That's just my take on it.

exactly. Frazier was a great fighter in his own right and as effective during his own peak as marciano but by a different route. The stance and pace was different and frazier only had one hand albeit as good as two since he doubled it up so well.

[choklab]

I see it this way but not everyone gets Rocky

dont I know it!:good

[lufcrazy]

Why do people keep bringing up frazier? Am I missing something here?

If liston has to resort to trading hooks because he can't land his jab (not a given at all) then he can do so successfully imo. How anyone can favour rocky to come off top in an exchage of power shots is beyond me.

[choklab]

Why do people keep bringing up frazier? Am I missing something here?

If liston has to resort to trading hooks because he can't land his jab (not a given at all) then he can do so successfully imo. How anyone can favour rocky to come off top in an exchage of power shots is beyond me.

Its about styles. even though both have one punch power up close in a tight tangle it will take more than one shot, even though rocky could be pushed back, I dont think he would be because of how low he would get. punching upwards inside was his forte. between the two marciano is most likely to work his hands free and land in bunches. As dangerous as Liston was I just dont think he takes marciano's power if he is hit more times than rocky is. just my take.

[Hookie]

No! Not even H2H IMO.

Liston has those two quick wins over Patterson and wins over Folley, Machen, and Williams as was pointed out.

Marciano beat Louis, Marciano x2, Charles x2, and Moore... all Hall of Famers. Marciano was only down twice in 49 fights and got up to stop both of those fighters (Walcott and Moore)... 3-0 (3) vs. these men.

Liston was down vs. Martin, Ali, and got his jaw broke vs. Marshall... 2-4 (1) vs. these men and stopped x3.

[McGrain]

Its about styles. even though both have one punch power up close in a tight tangle it will take more than one shot, even though rocky could be pushed back, I dont think he would be because of how low he would get.

Liston had to punch downwards against Patterson, and had no problem at all finding the target over and again. It seemed to be absolutely no problem for him to punch downwards whatsoever. Jabbing downards isn't a problem either. Lisotn was also a prestigious body puncher. He has none of the problems at all you seem to presume with this range and height.

He is also superb at giving ground to make space for his punches, see Williams 1.

He would generate lots of opportunity to land on Rocky who, yes, may be a little underated defensively but who I would still expect to be there or thereabouts to hit by most box-punches of the highest class, which Liston was.

This is further supported by the fact that he was there to be hit by most of the best box-punchers he met, namely Moore, Walcott and Charles.

In four of thes five fights, Marciano was hit regularly and in 2 out of 5 he basically out-toughed it. He did this against men who were 180lbs and probably past-prime.

Marciano will not be able to tough it out against one of the better punchers in the HW divisions history. He is going to get hit in his low crouch and he's going to get hit a lot. Liston was very accurate against fighters without great lateral movement and a very hard puncher. He has the style advantage (box-puncher/puncher v swarmer) the size advantage (1-2" in height, 16-17" in reach, 25-30lbs), they basically belong in different weight classes.

The case for Marciano is pretty thin given the status of the two men IMO, and yeah, you basically have to go to "Liston would fold versus any tough fighter" to make the Rocky pick, which is actually fair enough, but you have to presume a huge amount - I think most of the people who make that pick make it because they want to rather than because they have done the necessary research and drawn the necessary conclusions, most of which are not boxing related.

punching upwards inside was his forte. between the two marciano is most likely to work his hands free and land in bunches

That's actually debatable. Liston was an enormously strong human being as well as being a very very good infighter in his own right. Rocky in sign might get leaned, clutched and manhandled out of the fight. Additionally, if Liston is grabbing him by the arms (which didn't happen a lot but you seem to be presuming) I think it will be the referee that splits them more often than not - this is what usually happens in boxing and this is not a usual case as Liston has more strength and size. Secondly, Liston's booming punches inside will be the ones that do the real harm I think, he knew how to throw broadsides at this kind of range, and Rocky can be hit.

Secondly, you seem to be completely ignoring the toll that Liston will exact on Marciano swarming in. Liston's reach advantage is biblical - it is like a short MW versus a long HW in this regard. The idea that Marciano is not going to get poleaxed over and again on his way in because "Marciano is in a crouch and Liston will have to punch down" is crazy. Liston has two phases of boxing where there will normally be one and he is a skilled box-puncher who specialised in getting guys on their way into him. So, Rocky has to get inside where there MIGHT be advantages, but he will pay a toll in doing so. The idea that Rocky can walk up to Liston without getting hit much, and "throw punches in bunches" is ludicrous IMO.

As dangerous as Liston was I just dont think he takes marciano's power if he is hit more times than rocky is. just my take.

Although you've picked Liston to win earlier in the thread and I pick him here, I think I can see where you are coming from here. Marciano certainly proved himself durable and tough, although not against anyone so good as Ali or perhaps even Patterson. The question works both ways. Calculated as a % of a chance to win, you also have to factor in the idea that Marciano just can't take Liston's punches. One of the hardest punchers in history at 215 might just knock out one of the greatest fighters ever at 185 in 5 or 6 rounds because the smaller man's body remains subject to the normal laws of physics. If they both land the same number of punches, maybe Marciano just won't be able to remain in control of his body for the necessary 11-15 seconds at some stage or another.

History tells us there is at least a good chance of this.

[choklab]

Liston had to punch downwards against Patterson, and had no problem at all finding the target over and again. It seemed to be absolutely no problem for him to punch downwards whatsoever. Jabbing downards isn't a problem either. Lisotn was also a prestigious body puncher. He has none of the problems at all you seem to presume with this range and height.
He is also superb at giving ground to make space for his punches, see Williams 1.

I noticed that. Liston would hurt a man (usualy a frozen man) on the outside, step in use a short hook then back up to find a better angle and get him again. Do you think marciano is not going to be fighting back while liston is making room on the inside?


He would generate lots of opportunity to land on Rocky who, yes, may be a little underated defensively but who I would still expect to be there or thereabouts to hit by most box-punches of the highest class, which Liston was.

Liston had great craft and did hurt men at any range. I just dont think any were as tough as marciano or stylisticly as awkward.


This is further supported by the fact that he was there to be hit by most of the best box-punchers he met, namely Moore, Walcott and Charles.

yes marciano fought a lot of speedy box fighters with more seasoning and experience than liston.


Marciano will not be able to tough it out against one of the better punchers in the HW divisions history.

Not if he isnt punching back, I agree with this, but can you honestly see rocky not hitting back? Can you honestly guarantee Liston lands first inside and wins all the exchanges?


He is going to get hit in his low crouch and he's going to get hit a lot.

when did rocky get hit a lot? I dont think faster, slicker punchers with better workrates ever managed to land more blows on rocky than he was able to clip them back with. why would a heavier and slower man beat the workrate and land more punches on the crab like, side on marciano than charles, walcott and moore?


Liston was very accurate against fighters without great lateral movement and a very hard puncher. He has the style advantage (box-puncher/puncher v swarmer) the size advantage (1-2" in height, 16-17" in reach, 25-30lbs), they basically belong in different weight classes..

The reach is masive, its huge. If Liston was the kind of man who gets up on his toes, stays away then he wins hands down. It would be a cake walk for liston. but liston only used that reach to hurt a guy from long range on his way in, he did not keep anyone away with his reach he was always coming in to bust someone up after landing at range. The lowest Liston weighed was 200lb in 1953 and the heaviest marciano weighed was 192lb in 1951. size matters but so does experience, durability and toughness.


The case for Marciano is pretty thin given the status of the two men IMO, and yeah, you basically have to go to "Liston would fold versus any tough fighter" to make the Rocky pick, which is actually fair enough, but you have to presume a huge amount - I think most of the people who make that pick make it because they want to rather than because they have done the necessary research and drawn the necessary conclusions, most of which are not boxing related..


my case is not thin, I have given genuine boxing arguments as to how marciano would be Listons toughest ever fight. You are coming back with "Liston was a bigger man so he wins and if you dont agree with me I am going to say you have an agenda" I have already defended myself by saying there are other champions who would have better chances against marciano than liston. If you are trying to say I am a racist I hope you will take it back.


Rocky can be hit.

Liston can be hit. everyone landed on Liston and rocky was better than all the guys Liston beat who icidently did not offer the same awkwardness as marciano.

Secondly, you seem to be completely ignoring the toll that Liston will exact on Marciano swarming in. Liston's reach advantage is biblical - it is like a short MW versus a long HW in this regard. The idea that Marciano is not going to get poleaxed over and again on his way in because "Marciano is in a crouch and Liston will have to punch down" is crazy.


I dont think the term "swarmer" fits marciano. It is generalising. It would be suicidal for rocky to "swarm in" against anyone with the reach he had thats why he never did it. Marciano adapted a style where because of his reach they came to him. rocky edged in very carefuly and was not exposed to anything until he was at a range where he could get off first. Marciano was not a square footed come straight at you swarmer.

marciano wins because he has a crouch? I have never ever said this. what I have said is marciano drew people down to him where he can reach them. cleverer fighters than LIston fell for it and so would LIston. From outside it was hard to land more than a glancing blow before rocky was in the other guys face.

Liston has two phases of boxing where there will normally be one and he is a skilled box-puncher who specialised in getting guys on their way into him. So, Rocky has to get inside where there MIGHT be advantages, but he will pay a toll in doing so. The idea that Rocky can walk up to Liston without getting hit much, and "throw punches in bunches" is ludicrous IMO.

and also in my opinion. But marciano absolutly would not walk into liston without an opening. The other guy was feinted into making the first move. rocky is not standing upright, frozen and waiting. He is not going to be picked off and kept outside beacuse Liston did not use that reach to keep people away. rocky leaned back forcing the other guy to lean down, then with his feet close enough to the other guys feet he could reach them. liston would land one glancing blow on the way in if he is lucky but after that hes in rockys world.



Although you've picked Liston to win earlier in the thread and I pick him here, I think I can see where you are coming from here. Marciano certainly proved himself durable and tough, although not against anyone so good as Ali or perhaps even Patterson..

ali matches rocky for durabilty and toughness. patterson less so. I could also ask did Lliston beat anyone as good as charles, walcott and Moore. How many contenders better than rex layne and lastarza outside of title fights did Liston meet who actualy came to fight? without touching on Listons controversial clay fights I think these are fair points.

The question works both ways. Calculated as a % of a chance to win, you also have to factor in the idea that Marciano just can't take Liston's punches. One of the hardest punchers in history at 215 might just knock out one of the greatest fighters ever at 185 in 5 or 6 rounds because the smaller man's body remains subject to the normal laws of physics. If they both land the same number of punches, maybe Marciano just won't be able to remain in control of his body for the necessary 11-15 seconds at some stage or another.

History tells us there is at least a good chance of this.

This is a very fair point. marciano was not superman but he was as well prepared to go against the odds as anyone. considering you have not proved to me how Liston gets around marcaino's awkwardness, work rate, power and durability I would say marciano is worth a very good chance. If marciano fought like floyd patterson, square on stuck on the outside waiting to be hit I would agree with you. If rocky was no better than roy harris,stood up tall waiting to beat liston to the draw with shorter arms I would have to agree with you. If marciano was intimidated by fighting a man as big I would also agree with you. but I cannot because IMO marciano would not do those things.

[McGrain]

I noticed that. Liston would hurt a man (usualy a frozen man) on the outside, step in use a short hook then back up to find a better angle and get him again. Do you think marciano is not going to be fighting back while liston is making room on the inside?

Firstly, it's obvious to everyone that 51 plus % of people Liston hit to the body were not "frozen". That is nonsense, and typical of your posting upon Liston.

Second, yes, I imagine Rocky will be fighting during this boxing match.



Liston had great craft and did hurt men at any range. I just dont think any were as tough as marciano or stylisticly as awkward.


"Stylisticly awkward" is not the correct way to describe Liston I'm afraid, however much you want it to be. He was hit often by most of the top men he faced, Moore, Charles, Roland LaStraza, everyne in Liston's class (plus Don Cockell) landed on him plenty. None of them are anything like the puncher Liston is.

This idea that his crouch makes him "stylisticly awkward" is strange, and not supported by film. Everyone hit him and it didn't give particularly strange openings or angles for his punches. What he was was insanely tough and durable. At 180lbs.



yes marciano fought a lot of speedy box fighters with more seasoning and experience than liston.


Which has absolutely no relevance concerning a fight between them, and is also not relevant concerning the point you've made in response here.



Not if he isnt punching back, I agree with this, but can you honestly see rocky not hitting back?

No, I expect Rocky Marciano to fight in this fight.

No, you are wrong to say the punches he is throwing does not have any relevance regarding his ability to take punches.


Can you honestly guarantee Liston lands first inside and wins all the exchanges?

:lol: no. Why would you think I can?




when did rocky get hit a lot?

Walcott I, LaStraza I, Moore, Charles I.

I dont think faster, slicker punchers with better workrates ever managed to land more blows on rocky than he was able to clip them back with. why would a heavier and slower man beat the workrate and land more punches on the crab like, side on marciano than charles, walcott and moore?

:lol: I didn't say he could land more than them. Where are you getting this from?

The punches that Liston lands will be considerably harder than any he's ever heen hit with. He's a small cruiserweight in with a genuine HW. A face-forwards swarming cruiserweight has literally never beaten a huge-punching great HW. Marciano is so special that you can't dismiss it as impossible, but the odds don't favour it.




The reach is masive, its huge. If Liston was the kind of man who gets up on his toes

No, i'm going to stop you there because this is the worst kind of bullshit. The fighters who take MOST advantage from this type of reach advantage are NOT fighters who "get up on their toes." They are box-punchers who are expert in using their reach advantage. Lewis, Bowe, Vitali, Wlad...and Liston. That's total rubbish.




my case is not thin, I have given genuine boxing arguments as to how marciano would be Listons toughest ever fight.

Marciano could be, sure. For as longa s it lasted.

You are coming back with "Liston was a bigger man so he wins and if you dont agree with me I am going to say you have an agenda" I have already defended myself by saying there are other champions who would have better chances against marciano than liston.

I think you'll find my case is a little deeper than to say "Liston is bigger". Hopefully you'll re-read the original post to pick out the array of points for yourself.

If you are trying to say I am a racist I hope you will take it back.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[he grant]

Excellent points...the thing is most people think Marciano is Frazier, while they were completely different fighter, Marciano fought low and back and even some of the best jabbers could not land without given themselves exposure to Rocky's unorthodox and rhythm breaking power. Also Marciano had a 2 fisted offense while Frazier mainly relied on his left hook. Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano and it could be said that Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston but Marciano was hit by pinpoint punchers with power that were Liston's size or bigger. Would Marciano be in a tough fight yes but I think the biggest factor IMO would be Marciano's lack of fear in this one but That's just my take on it.

Can you name the pin point punchers with power comparable to Liston's that Rocky fought that were comparable in size and reach to Sonny and also in their physical prime when they fought Rocky ... I must have missed that fight ..

[choklab]

Can you name the pin point punchers with power comparable to Liston's that Rocky fought that were comparable in size and reach to Sonny and also in their physical prime when they fought Rocky ... I must have missed that fight ..


walcott was a pin point puncher who's sharpness and timing had the same effect with selected timed blows as Liston. Naturaly he was not as strong or as heavyhanded with each punch but with sharpness when he timed a blow wallcot iced top fighters with single shots. Archie Moore also. For many years too. neither man was comparable in size to Liston but both as capable as icing a man of the top level. Now marciano did fight a faded Joe Louis who matched Liston for size and he did fight john shkor who was bigger than Liston about the size of bonecrusher smith obviously not Listons league but if you combine what walcott and moore had with shkor and joe Louis's size and put it all into one man he still would not be sonny liston but would that guy be a problem for marciano? I dont think so. In short marciano fought dangerous punchers and he fought big guys but not ones who were both dangerous and big..its not a big deal when Listons jaw wasnt any better than big guys marciano KO'd.

[Ren]

no way are walcott and moore as hard icers as liston. Liston sparked opponents out as often as Marciano, but with more one punch KO power.

[Beatle]

Marciano's wins over Ezzard Charles are worth more than Liston's wins over glass-jawed Floyd Patterson.

Add Prime Joe Walcott (he was champion when Marciano beat him), Rex Layne (who had a pretty good resume) and Harry "Kid" Matthews, and I really don't see how you could put Liston over Marciano.

Also, head-to-head, Marciano would smash Liston's glass jaw like a hot knife through butter. If feather-fisted Muhammad Ali could knock Liston out in one minute with a jab, then a Marciano powerpunch would demolish him.

[Ren]

Marciano's wins over Ezzard Charles are worth more than Liston's wins over glass-jawed Floyd Patterson.

Add Prime Joe Walcott (he was champion when Marciano beat him), Rex Layne (who had a pretty good resume) and Harry "Kid" Matthews, and I really don't see how you could put Liston over Marciano.

Also, head-to-head, Marciano would smash Liston's glass jaw like a hot knife through butter. If feather-fisted Muhammad Ali could knock Liston out in one minute with a jab, then a Marciano powerpunch would demolish him.

Liston stood up to lots of heavy punchers and was clearly fine after te Ali II fight - your post has no basis.

'hot knife through butter' is just another example of stupid Marciano hyperbole. You'll have Marciano Koing Godzilla based on that nonsense.

[choklab]

I expect Rocky Marciano to fight in this fight..

agreed.:good


The punches that Liston lands will be considerably harder than any he's ever heen hit with. He's a small cruiserweight in with a genuine HW. A face-forwards swarming cruiserweight has literally never beaten a huge-punching great HW. Marciano is so special that you can't dismiss it as impossible, but the odds don't favour it.?


here we go again "face forward"!! we are talking about the championship class here.... crusierweight! another new observation.:yep I am glad you hold back on "super heavyweight" this time. marciano was over 190 when he turned pro but came down to be as fit as he could, he still bumped up to 192 as late as 1951. He was killing himself to be as light as he could. Liston was 198lb and raw boned in his first year as a pro then grew another 12 or so pounds. The point I am making is both started out within pounds of each other. one decided to train to develpo more power, the other decide to train to develop more stamina.


No, i'm going to stop you there because this is the worst kind of bullshit. The fighters who take MOST advantage from this type of reach advantage are NOT fighters who "get up on their toes." They are box-punchers who are expert in using their reach advantage. Lewis, Bowe, Vitali, Wlad...and Liston. That's total rubbish.?


tell me when did Liston use his distance to fend a man off like the Klitchkos? are you saying Liston is part of that group? being as fair as I can, just thinking about it the klitchkos stand a much better chance than Liston against rocky because they did exactly that. rocky didnt rush forward from outside chucking bombs - he gave that apearance without actualy doing it because there is so much hi-lighted edited film out there. If you study full rounds it was not the case. Liston used his reach to land first, he led with power not fending, off defensive, draining point scoring work.


I think you'll find my case is a little deeper than to say "Liston is bigger". Hopefully you'll re-read the original post to pick out the array of points for yourself.?


well I cannot argue with your opinion, it is loaded with the un original, established maxim of "good big guys versus good small guys" which I fully accept as being in the majority view on this match up. I also understand you rightly feel that rocky fights back and that you expect him to be weaker in all departments but heart etc. However, it alarms me that you wont adress the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in, climbs all over him inside then hits him clean at odd angles more often and with more power than any man he faced before. alarming because you whole heartedly aknowledge harry greb can give away more pounds and do this with far less power - even though there is no film to fully study how he did this.

[MrOliverKlozoff]

No.

[choklab]

no way are walcott and moore as hard icers as liston. Liston sparked opponents out as often as Marciano, but with more one punch KO power.

That’s true. Albert westphal was iced with one clean shot. little unrated westphal a man Liston himself called "quick fall".

Marciano iced Walcott with a clean shot. world ATG champion jersey Joe Walcott.


can you see the similarity?

now, I am not saying Liston could not do it with "one shot" at world level but what I am saying is have you seen him do it?

[lufcrazy]

Rocky will lose if he stays on the outside. He will be hit with the jab on the way in and he will lose the war on the inside.

Rocky's best hope is to land a clean ko shot which I can't see him doing.

Honestly, hook for hook, rocky has no chance.

I'm alarmed you paint rocky as this elusive phenom landing punches you don't see coming.

Film and history paints him as a swarmer with incredible heart and great p4p power who essentially competed in the cw division aside from a fight against an over the hill, though very formidable, joe louis.

Charles, walcott, moore and rocky would not be heavyweights today they would all be small cruiserweights (the versions liston fought). Rocky will never have faced the blunt force trauma coming his way when he engages with liston.

Competitive? yes for maybe 6 rounds until the damage tells on the small cruiser.

[choklab]

Rocky will lose if he stays on the outside. He will be hit with the jab on the way in and he will lose the war on the inside.

Rocky's best hope is to land a clean ko shot which I can't see him doing.

Honestly, hook for hook, rocky has no chance.

I'm alarmed you paint rocky as this elusive phenom landing punches you don't see coming.

Film and history paints him as a swarmer with incredible heart and great p4p power who essentially competed in the cw division aside from a fight against an over the hill, though very formidable, joe louis.

Charles, walcott, moore and rocky would not be heavyweights today they would all be small cruiserweights (the versions liston fought). Rocky will never have faced the blunt force trauma coming his way when he engages with liston.

Competitive? yes for maybe 6 rounds until the damage tells on the small cruiser.

this is too cliche....you still are not listening, I keep telling you marciano is not staying on the outside!!

please let go of this crusierweight swarmer obsesion... Liston (older than he said he was or not)was 198lb and raw boned in his first year as a pro then grew another 12 or so pounds. The point I am making is both Liston and marciano started out within pounds of each other. one decided to train to develop more power, the other decide to train to develop more stamina.

[Dempsey1238]

If Boxing goes back to 15 rounds, I think you guys might be shock to see how much weight the heavyweights would lose in regards to gain stamina over power.

[Grinder]

I see Marciano having a very tough time despite and perhaps because of his monster will. This is not a fight where that is gonna help him.

Liston has a reputation for being mentally fragile in some quarters. But it doesn't hold up. Liston is too often confused with Tyson.

Marciano is very strong, but he isn't moving Liston backwards. Liston will move him backwards and that presents a problem for Marciano because he needs leverage and forward momentum. Once Liston starts confirming that he is the stronger beast in there, he's gonna start standing Rocky up with the jab and setting up bombs. Rocky off balance takes punishment.

Grinding fighters who rely on will and endurance are fodder for Liston. The way to beat him is to jab him, turn him, counter him. Rocky can't do that.

His only chance is to outmuscle, outslug, or outlast him.

Who will take the other's shots better? Liston had a great chin. Rocky did too, but if Walcott and Moore could drop him, Liston will too. I don't see Marciano dropping him. Liston isn't going to concede much of anything to Marciano and that will register like a strange new world.

Liston does not walk Rocky down. If he does, his chin, which was proven suspect in two fights, gets shattered by a bigger puncher than Ali.

[lufcrazy]

this is too cliche....you still are not listening, I keep telling you marciano is not staying on the outside!!

please let go of this crusierweight swarmer obsesion... Liston (older than he said he was or not)was 198lb and raw boned in his first year as a pro then grew another 12 or so pounds. The point I am making is both Liston and marciano started out within pounds of each other. one decided to train to develop more power, the other decide to train to develop more stamina.

And i'm telling you he loses outside, he loses inside.

No you have to appreciate that you are not discussing two heavyweights here; a cw vs a hw.

[choklab]

And i'm telling you he loses outside, he loses inside..
You could be right if rocky was not a championship level fighter. I would expect marcinao an ATG heavyweight (not a regular crusier) to be good enough to get a foothold inside against a man shorter than joe Louis.

No you have to appreciate that you are not discussing two heavyweights here; a cw vs a hw.

Its two 1950s heavyweights what ever way you look at it.

[choklab]

If Boxing goes back to 15 rounds, I think you guys might be shock to see how much weight the heavyweights would lose in regards to gain stamina over power.

eaxctly!! :good

even today if superheavyweights did the same miles and curcuits in training as the welterweights there would not be many over 225lb. riddick bowe was once 218 and klitchko as a kickboxer was a beanpole like carmine vingo and ernie terrell.

[Grinder]

Unfortunately for rocky, he's just too small for serious h2h debates against elite true heavyweights such as liston.

Ok, whatever you say.

Rocky KTFO a guy with his nose split in half, a guy who he hadn't KOed in how many previous rounds. When did he ko jersey Joe?

All your airy fairy bullshit doesn't make sense when you consider what rally happened, and that was whenever it mattered, rocky pulled out the goods and ListOn sat on his stool.

Liston was so big... Ooh but what about if Rocky got inside in his face, how would ListOns long arms fair?

Liston choked or threw away his legacy on a stool against Ali. You can't change time and create a monster who was stopped multiple times by puncher's not even in Marcianos league.

Can you truly imagine Rocky getting kOed easily? If so, rewatch his fights. If not, what happens in the later rounds when Rockys unparalleled stamina gets him in close and hunting down Listons sweet spot with his Suzie Q?

[fists of fury]

Unfortunately for rocky, he's just too small for serious h2h debates against elite true heavyweights such as liston.

Your'e correct in my view. One of my favourites is Rocky, but one has to face facts.

[Ren]

Liston does not walk Rocky down. If he does, his chin, which was proven suspect in two fights, gets shattered by a bigger puncher than Ali.


your argument is based on you believing that ali KOed Liston, but Liston clearly took a dive.

Your argument now means nothing.

[Stonehands89]

Liston does not walk Rocky down. If he does, his chin, which was proven suspect in two fights, gets shattered by a bigger puncher than Ali.
Liston is the stronger man here. If you don't buy that, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Liston's chin was not proven suspect. Marshall, Williams, DeJohn, and Valdes proved it was bout as solid as it gets. The only real evidence you have is the Martin fight, where he was 37.

[choklab]

Liston's chin was not proven suspect. Marshall, Williams, DeJohn, and Valdes proved it was bout as solid as it gets. The only real evidence you have is the Martin fight, where he was 37.

Did marshal, williams, dejohn or valdes ever knock out championship level fighters or were at the top of their game when facing Liston?

walcott knocked out and decked world champions and knocked out multiple top contenders.

Charles Knocked down a world champion and also knocked out top contenders.

Archie Moore decked world champions and iced top heavyweights.

I would say marciano not Liston had the jaw that was as solid as it gets. I dont care how big Liston was compared to those guys walcott and co hit hard enough to get the job done at a level higher than those who tested Listons chin.

[lufcrazy]

Ok, whatever you say.

Rocky KTFO a guy with his nose split in half, a guy who he hadn't KOed in how many previous rounds. When did he ko jersey Joe?

All your airy fairy bullshit doesn't make sense when you consider what rally happened, and that was whenever it mattered, rocky pulled out the goods and ListOn sat on his stool.

Liston was so big... Ooh but what about if Rocky got inside in his face, how would ListOns long arms fair?

Liston choked or threw away his legacy on a stool against Ali. You can't change time and create a monster who was stopped multiple times by puncher's not even in Marcianos league.

Can you truly imagine Rocky getting kOed easily? If so, rewatch his fights. If not, what happens in the later rounds when Rockys unparalleled stamina gets him in close and hunting down Listons sweet spot with his Suzie Q?

Who said it would be easy?

There's not a fighter in history that could stop rocky getting inside (imo) but that doesn't mean he won't ship leather on his way in.

Once he gets inside and he's exchanging blows with bigger, stronger, heavier handed liston, his courage and mentality will ensure he goes out on his shield in a brutal defeat because he isn't gonna beat liston on the inside.

If rocky gets to the later rounds he has a chance to wear down the vast majority of hw's but I don't see him going that long.

[tommygun711]

Liston would stop Rocky mid rounds. Rocky would put up a great fight but the toll of Sonny's shots combined with Rocky's style would end the fight. Liston is bigger, stronger, and hits harder then Rocky, he would eventually stop Rocky after a great fight early on.

I don't see a scenerio where Rocky could really drag Liston into deep waters and stop him, I think Liston just lands too many punches before that could happen.

[choklab]

I don't see a scenerio where Rocky could really drag Liston into deep waters and stop him, I think Liston just lands too many punches before that could happen.

willie besmanoff went a lot of rounds with Liston before getting stopped on a cut, he stood in front of Liston, upright and withstood a beating round after round if he was as good as rocky he would not have been hit a fraction as much and Liston would have been in deep water. Marciano at age 40 would last longer than besmanoff.

[Ren]

That’s true. Albert westphal was iced with one clean shot. little unrated westphal a man Liston himself called "quick fall".

Marciano iced Walcott with a clean shot. world ATG champion jersey Joe Walcott.


can you see the similarity?

now, I am not saying Liston could not do it with "one shot" at world level but what I am saying is have you seen him do it?

yeah i dunnow hy you bring up Marcianos figths against old men.

Loads of old past it ATGS get flattened by decent young fighters.

[bask]

Everything Liston did was behind that big left jab - he could slip a punch and inside he worked the body, refused to tie up instead throwing combinations to seperate...

You can't teach how fight like Marciano did... ain't no way, be arrested under cruelty act, in so many ways his style doesn't lend itself to these theortical match-ups.

But he may win such a contest between himself and Liston.

Hell, Marciano, if you put him on his best day, against any of the other Heavyweights, on their best day - he could win.

But looking at the styles, I would make Liston favourite. But couldn't say he would most definitely of won had the two met.

[tommygun711]

willie besmanoff went a lot of rounds with Liston before getting stopped on a cut, he stood in front of Liston, upright and withstood a beating round after round if he was as good as rocky he would not have been hit a fraction as much and Liston would have been in deep water. Marciano at age 40 would last longer than besmanoff.

Willie Besmanoff has an entirely different style to Marciano really. Of course he would beat hit, Marciano was no defense master like you say he was.

[Grinder]

That is an overly simplistic view.

Styles make fights. The right gameplan an the right set of attributes can lead to a great fighter looking average.

Many greats have lost in fights were they were outclassed by a greater foe or even a lesser foe.


Maybe your view is overcomplicating the matter. Occum's Razor anyone? Rocky never lost and was never remotely close to being stopped.

Is Liston going to win a points decision?

[Grinder]

You're starting to see sense now, rocky will force his way in. Once inside the two will be exchanging heavy shots. I think everyone can agree this is a likely scenario that rocky will get beyond liston's jab and force them to exchange.

The question is, when liston and rocky are exchanging heavy shots who do you think will come off worse? The great small man or the great big man?

I know who i'd bet my money on.

The closer they are the better it is for Marciano. His reach disadvantage becomes an advantage if he is leaning on Listons chest.

[tommygun711]

Maybe your view is overcomplicating the matter. Occum's Razor anyone? Rocky never lost and was never remotely close to being stopped.

Is Liston going to win a points decision?

The reason he never lost was due to the talent pool. I give props to Rocky for fighting great fighters like Walcott, Charles, and Moore, but they were still past their best and they clearly weren't in the same form they previously were. Charles still got quite a few shots on Marciano and hurt him multiple times in their first fight.

Liston would stop him IMO, Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston with the same reach and weight difference. I know you can say the same thing with Liston, but at least Liston has faced plenty of fighters the same physique and style of Rocky. Not saying they were the same, but Liston would've handled Rocky.

[Bummy Davis]

Can you name the pin point punchers with power comparable to Liston's that Rocky fought that were comparable in size and reach to Sonny and also in their physical prime when they fought Rocky ... I must have missed that fight ..


And Who was it that Liston fought that was close to Marciano at any level, punching,stamina,chin heart and relentlessness.....

[Stonehands89]

Did marshal, williams, dejohn or valdes ever knock out championship level fighters or were at the top of their game when facing Liston?

walcott knocked out and decked world champions and knocked out multiple top contenders.

Charles Knocked down a world champion and also knocked out top contenders.

Archie Moore decked world champions and iced top heavyweights.

I would say marciano not Liston had the jaw that was as solid as it gets. I dont care how big Liston was compared to those guys walcott and co hit hard enough to get the job done at a level higher than those who tested Listons chin.
All of these points are incidental and not disputed.

Liston is a physically larger and stronger than Marciano. Agree or disagree?

If you agree -and you should- then that means that Marciano's style is unlikely to get him the win in this match-up. Wading in directly at Liston will invite concussions, cuts, and catastrophe for the Rock.

[lufcrazy]

Maybe your view is overcomplicating the matter. Occum's Razor anyone? Rocky never lost and was never remotely close to being stopped.

Is Liston going to win a points decision?

Came within a round of being stopped against charles and by all accounts lastarza beat him first time round.

The razor firmly points at liston here. Two men exchanging blows, you gonna favour the bigger stronger man or the smaller weaker man?

[Rock0052]

I disagree that Liston would be more effective on the inside here, personally. Unless he goes the Wlad/Ali route and tries to smother Rocky by clinching (and even that's not a given that it works), I see Marciano's shorter punches being much more effective than Liston's Stretch Armstrong-esque reach in close quarters.

Liston does have the advantage on the outside for as long as he's able to keep it there. If Rocky can't get inside, it's Liston's fight to lose.

The X-factor for me is, what's Sonny going to do when he's faced with a relentless puncher who won't crumble early and has the ability to last with him in a dogfight? I'm not sold he's got the mentality to weather it and not crack. On paper, Sonny's got the physical advantages...but if we're talking about being proven in a war against a top fighter who won't back down, Rocky's shown he can do that. I think that's still a question mark for Sonny.

[choklab]

All of these points are incidental and not disputed.

Liston is a physically larger and stronger than Marciano. Agree or disagree?

agree. just like 90% of marciano's opponents Liston has an edge in size, however they are both 1950s heavyweights who turned pro within 5lb of each other. Marciano trained for endurance and went down in weight where as liston trained for power and built up 12lb. If they both had the same trainer they would always have been 5lb of each other. If they started at simular starting point does it make the size diferential that imposible? nature originaly had them closer than you might think.

Wading in directly at Liston will invite concussions, cuts, and catastrophe for the Rock.

marciano never waded in directly, with his reach it was suicide against any heavyweight, thats why he never did it. This is a misconception. marciano feinted opponents towards him whilst carefuly edging in with a crab like , side on defence. Liston may land single glancing blows breifly from outside but he wont land clean from that distance. there was more sophistication to marcianos style than you give him credit.

[Grinder]

Came within a round of being stopped against charles and by all accounts lastarza beat him first time round.

The razor firmly points at liston here. Two men exchanging blows, you gonna favour the bigger stronger man or the smaller weaker man?

I favour the undefeated granite chinned champ with the unmatched stamina and one punch ko power in two hands.

The assumption that Liston is stronger is arguable. Rockys chin was proven to be better, unless Liston took a few dives. In that case are we comparing undefeated Liston or defeated Liston?

In that case, wasnt Rocky paid to stop fighting by the mob in case he koed their champ Liston? Sound ludicrous, well then....

[lufcrazy]

I favour the undefeated granite chinned champ with the unmatched stamina and one punch ko power in two hands.

The assumption that Liston is stronger is arguable. Rockys chin was proven to be better, unless Liston took a few dives. In that case are we comparing undefeated Liston or defeated Liston?

In that case, wasnt Rocky paid to stop fighting by the mob in case he koed their champ Liston? Sound ludicrous, well then....

The first lastarza fight is considered a gift victory so the undefeated argument is weak. Both jersey joe and archie dropped rocky so the chin isn't exactly granite.

Any assumption is arguable. That's the nature of debating a subjective sport.

I'd say rocky's chin is not proven to be better at all. Liston's beard isn't under question here.

Liston was outclassed by ali and either quit or threw his shoulder out. Rocky wouldn't quit but he'd equally be outclassed.

In the rematch, again, liston was either clean flash knockdowned or quit. If ali did throw a punch hard enough to actually have that affect then he could do the same to rocky. If not, rocky would probably just lose by wide ud or late stoppage.

[Hookie]

Two close fights with Johnny Summerlin, lost to Marty Marshall (Marshall who was really a LHW broke Liston's jaw), looked less than great vs. Machen, looked like shit vs. Ali x2 and was dropped in the 1st round by Ali (fight should have continued though), brutally knocked out by Martin... Williams ain't shit x2 and neither was Valdes... by the time he fought Liston. Looked great vs. Liston x2 and Folley who were good small HWs with less than great chins. Whitehurst and Westphal? really

[FrazierVsTyson]

If Jersey Joe can put marciano down and outbox him for 13 rounds surely Liston, a man whos boxing skills are underated, especially with that jab, could beat him, possibly even by knockout. Marciano faught very few contenders IMO.

[Bummy Davis]

The first lastarza fight is considered a gift victory so the undefeated argument is weak. Both jersey joe and archie dropped rocky so the chin isn't exactly granite.

Any assumption is arguable. That's the nature of debating a subjective sport.

I'd say rocky's chin is not proven to be better at all. Liston's beard isn't under question here.

Liston was outclassed by ali and either quit or threw his shoulder out. Rocky wouldn't quit but he'd equally be outclassed.

In the rematch, again, liston was either clean flash knockdowned or quit. If ali did throw a punch hard enough to actually have that affect then he could do the same to rocky. If not, rocky would probably just lose by wide ud or late stoppage.



Its your opinion that Rocky would be outclassed and if someone has a per-notion about a fighter then its almost impossible to open up there mind. I personally agree with Ali when he stated that Marciano would be his toughest fight but I did not always think Marciano was so good but later learned to appreciate his subtle defense while being able to land some unorthodox rhythm breaking bombs. Ali was a pinpoint puncher but he lacked the power that Jersey Joe Walcott had in either hand and although he was faster than Archie and a larger man he did not have Archie's power.

Styles make fights and many would assume that Liston would beat Marciano because he was an inch bigger,weighed more and had a longer reach but thing don't always pan out that way especially when one of the fighters had an incredible will and tough style. IMO Liston would not be an easy fight for Marciano but Marciano would be a tougher fight for Liston and the intangibles such as the Bigger heart play a major role here.

To say that Marciano was dropped by Walcott and Moore so what would Sonny do would be like saying Liston quit 2X vs Ali, had his jaw broken by 180 Marty Marshall and was KO'd by Leotis Martin (who was not known as a puncher) after Leotis got off the floor and did not quit had an effect on Sonny. Also Burt Whitehurst went the distance with Sonny 2X while getting KO'd 2X by Archie Moore in the same time frame....Marciano was A DIFFERENT ANIMAL THAN ANYTHING SONNY WAS IN THE RING WITH AND WE REALLY DO not know how Sonny deals with it.

I remember a guy named Mike Tyson and a guy named Evander and in Evanders last fight he had a tough time stopping former middleweight bobby Cyz (Cyz was KO'd in 2 next fight vs Corrie Sanders) Tyson had more power, was meaner but Evander had no fear for him and somehow Tyson smelled it...well Tyson got stopped to my surprise and found a way to quit in the rematch and I see that parallel in a Liston/Marciano fight.

In My humble opinion

[Stonehands89]

agree. just like 90% of marciano's opponents Liston has an edge in size, however they are both 1950s heavyweights who turned pro within 5lb of each other. Marciano trained for endurance and went down in weight where as liston trained for power and built up 12lb. If they both had the same trainer they would always have been 5lb of each other. If they started at simular starting point does it make the size diferential that imposible? nature originaly had them closer than you might think.
Liston trained down. He skipped rope like a maniac to do so. Compare their dimensions if you don't believe me. Liston is the bigger man but that isn't even the whole story. Marciano was stronger than damn near all of his opponents and all of his title challengers. They all conceded that. But he is not stronger than Liston and in a fight like this, that counts.


marciano never waded in directly, with his reach it was suicide against any heavyweight, thats why he never did it. This is a misconception. marciano feinted opponents towards him whilst carefuly edging in with a crab like , side on defence. Liston may land single glancing blows breifly from outside but he wont land clean from that distance. there was more sophistication to marcianos style than you give him credit.
I'm well aware of Marciano's style. Have you seen Liston's uppercuts? I'm also well aware of his subtle defensive moves, but he isn't going to be quick-stepping around Liston and that's the point. He is going to be in the line of fire and he is going to be coming in. He is not going to be moving Liston backwards because Liston is too strong.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up a few miles from Marciano territory and I'm a monster fan of his. But I ain't a blind fan. He'd have real problems with Liston -hell, Liston is exactly the wrong style for his style. Marciano himself attested to that brute strength he saw in the Patterson fight -'he just walked right through him like he wasn't even there' he said.

[lufcrazy]

Its your opinion that Rocky would be outclassed and if someone has a per-notion about a fighter then its almost impossible to open up there mind. I personally agree with Ali when he stated that Marciano would be his toughest fight but I did not always think Marciano was so good but later learned to appreciate his subtle defense while being able to land some unorthodox rhythm breaking bombs. Ali was a pinpoint puncher but he lacked the power that Jersey Joe Walcott had in either hand and although he was faster than Archie and a larger man he did not have Archie's power.

Styles make fights and many would assume that Liston would beat Marciano because he was an inch bigger,weighed more and had a longer reach but thing don't always pan out that way especially when one of the fighters had an incredible will and tough style. IMO Liston would not be an easy fight for Marciano but Marciano would be a tougher fight for Liston and the intangibles such as the Bigger heart play a major role here.

To say that Marciano was dropped by Walcott and Moore so what would Sonny do would be like saying Liston quit 2X vs Ali, had his jaw broken by 180 Marty Marshall and was KO'd by Leotis Martin (who was not known as a puncher) after Leotis got off the floor and did not quit had an effect on Sonny. Also Burt Whitehurst went the distance with Sonny 2X while getting KO'd 2X by Archie Moore in the same time frame....Marciano was A DIFFERENT ANIMAL THAN ANYTHING SONNY WAS IN THE RING WITH AND WE REALLY DO not know how Sonny deals with it.

I remember a guy named Mike Tyson and a guy named Evander and in Evanders last fight he had a tough time stopping former middleweight bobby Cyz (Cyz was KO'd in 2 next fight vs Corrie Sanders) Tyson had more power, was meaner but Evander had no fear for him and somehow Tyson smelled it...well Tyson got stopped to my surprise and found a way to quit in the rematch and I see that parallel in a Liston/Marciano fight.

In My humble opinion

I agree that since you have a per-notion it's almost impossible for me to open up your mind.

It's ok, we'll just agree to disagree :good

[kingfisher3]

i been thinking about this for a while.
liston was essentially a bully and rocky was essentially a warrior.
unless liston gets a early stoppage he has no chance. quit on stool around 10-12th round

[Hookie]

Let's look a little closer at what Liston really did and what he really was.

Liston was about 6' and about 210-215 Lbs. at his best. Some sources have his reach listed as 84" but I've also read that this was exaggerated. He wasn't a 6'5" fight with an eightysomething inch reach... he'd have to punch up at guys like V. or W. Klitschko, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Holmes, even Holyfield (who is 2" taller)... and that one guy who supposedly had a shorter reach than Liston but it really didn't look like it when they fought... Muhammad Ali! Regardless of how long his reach was... when your shorter and slower it matters.

Liston struggled with Johnny Summerlin twice early in his career (W8 and WSD).

He went 2-1 (1) vs. Marty Marshall... who was not a big puncher but broke Liston's jaw, had been stopped 4 times prior to facing Liston, he was 180Lbs and looked like a SMW.

Wins over the likes of Whitehurst x2, Bethea, Daniels, Cab, even DeJohn, Williams x2, and a washed up Valdes don't mean much to me.

Who really cares about Besmanoff, King x2, Harris, Westphal, Clark, Moore x2, and even Wepner?

Wins over Folley, Machen, and Patterson x2 mean something to me... I'll even throw in the 2 wins over Williams. As good as Folley and Patterson were they were not the most durable HWs around. Folley was stopped by Doug Jones among others and Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ. Machen was not as slick as those two but he was more durable (most of the time) and did manage to last the 12 round distance with Liston... he was even competitive. Machen was stopped in 1 round by Johansson (who had good power) and a young Frazier (KO10) when Machen was fading. Williams is overrated IMO but Liston beat him easily twice so I'll say good wins over Williams.

So, Liston over Marciano? Why? Yes, Liston was about 2" taller and had a much longer reach even if it wasn't 84". He was at least 20 Lbs. heavier. So, what? Marciano isn't going to try and out jab Liston or even try to beat him fighting on the outside even for 1 second. Marciano is going to try and slip punches, get on the inside, and land short punches to the head and body followed up with bigger punches to the head and body and anything else that gets in the way. Marciano wasn't slow, he had a good workrate, and great stamina. Marciano also had a very good chin.

Wins over a faded Louis KO8, an as good as ever Walcott KO13, a faded Charles x2, and an as good as ever Moore is better than what Liston did IMO. Add in that he stopped Walcott in 1 in the rematch... maybe Walcott was still as good as ever?

I'll go with Marciano by late round KO. Liston would outbox Marciano at times but in the end Rocky prevails.

[Hookie]

If Jersey Joe can put marciano down and outbox him for 13 rounds surely Liston, a man whos boxing skills are underated, especially with that jab, could beat him, possibly even by knockout. Marciano faught very few contenders IMO.

Walcott was quicker and slicker than Liston, so was Moore... so I don't see your point.

[RockyJim]

Liston QUIT on his stool against Ali in Miami in Feb.1964...this is how a champion relinquishes his title?...by quitting against a light hitting Clay?...taking a DIVE against Ali in Maine in 1965...with the "phantom punch"...I've seen better acting in the WWF...Marciano had HEART...power...chin...stamina...and a"kill or be killed" attitude...he'd beat Sonny on heart alone...

[lufcrazy]

Let's look a little closer at what Liston really did and what he really was.

Liston was about 6' and about 210-215 Lbs. at his best. Some sources have his reach listed as 84" but I've also read that this was exaggerated. He wasn't a 6'5" fight with an eightysomething inch reach... he'd have to punch up at guys like V. or W. Klitschko, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Holmes, even Holyfield (who is 2" taller)... and that one guy who supposedly had a shorter reach than Liston but it really didn't look like it when they fought... Muhammad Ali! Regardless of how long his reach was... when your shorter and slower it matters.

Liston struggled with Johnny Summerlin twice early in his career (W8 and WSD).

He went 2-1 (1) vs. Marty Marshall... who was not a big puncher but broke Liston's jaw, had been stopped 4 times prior to facing Liston, he was 180Lbs and looked like a SMW.

Wins over the likes of Whitehurst x2, Bethea, Daniels, Cab, even DeJohn, Williams x2, and a washed up Valdes don't mean much to me.

Who really cares about Besmanoff, King x2, Harris, Westphal, Clark, Moore x2, and even Wepner?

Wins over Folley, Machen, and Patterson x2 mean something to me... I'll even throw in the 2 wins over Williams. As good as Folley and Patterson were they were not the most durable HWs around. Folley was stopped by Doug Jones among others and Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ. Machen was not as slick as those two but he was more durable (most of the time) and did manage to last the 12 round distance with Liston... he was even competitive. Machen was stopped in 1 round by Johansson (who had good power) and a young Frazier (KO10) when Machen was fading. Williams is overrated IMO but Liston beat him easily twice so I'll say good wins over Williams.

So, Liston over Marciano? Why? Yes, Liston was about 2" taller and had a much longer reach even if it wasn't 84". He was at least 20 Lbs. heavier. So, what? Marciano isn't going to try and out jab Liston or even try to beat him fighting on the outside even for 1 second. Marciano is going to try and slip punches, get on the inside, and land short punches to the head and body followed up with bigger punches to the head and body and anything else that gets in the way. Marciano wasn't slow, he had a good workrate, and great stamina. Marciano also had a very good chin.

Wins over a faded Louis KO8, an as good as ever Walcott KO13, a faded Charles x2, and an as good as ever Moore is better than what Liston did IMO. Add in that he stopped Walcott in 1 in the rematch... maybe Walcott was still as good as ever?

I'll go with Marciano by late round KO. Liston would outbox Marciano at times but in the end Rocky prevails.

Yeah both were the top hw for about 4 years in a row. Liston lost early and avenged it by ko; rocky should have lost early and avenged it by ko.

Rocky fought better guys who were old, liston looked dominant against lesser guys who were prime.

I agree with your notion the fight will be fought on the inside but i'd favour the bigger, heavier powerhouse over the smaller rugged fitness freak.

[choklab]

So, Liston over Marciano? Why? Yes, Liston was about 2" taller and had a much longer reach even if it wasn't 84". He was at least 20 Lbs. heavier. So, what? Marciano isn't going to try and out jab Liston or even try to beat him fighting on the outside even for 1 second. Marciano is going to try and slip punches, get on the inside, and land short punches to the head and body followed up with bigger punches to the head and body and anything else that gets in the way. Marciano wasn't slow, he had a good workrate, and great stamina. Marciano also had a very good chin.
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all true facts.:good