Jack Dempsey beats Sonny Liston

[mr. magoo]

Dempsey was arguably the best slugger of all time.. Can we really see Liston pulling this one off???

[McGrain]

Dempsey wasn't a slugger.

[standing 8countboxing]

I would actually favor Liston in this one. He was bigger and wouldn't have been intimidated.

[Ted Stickles]

Id go with Sonny on this one

[rekcutnevets]

Jack's speed would trouble Sonny in the early going. I think he would elect to move in and out on Liston as much as he could. I wouldn't expect him to look like Oscar de la Hoya did versus Bernard Hopkins, but that fight does have some similarities in the way I see this fight going.

Expect Dempsey to take the first 3 rounds with his speed, and catching Liston with some clean punches. Liston's size will start becoming a factor more and more in the 4th round and onward, and his jab will start finding its mark. By the 6th round, Dempsey's fast twitch fibers will have been greatly depleted and Liston will assume full control.

I could easily see this over before round 8. Liston by ko.

[pugilist_boyd]

maybe a later dempsey-above-but the dempsey that beat willard-the untamed dempsey would not lose to liston in his actual prime he would destroy liston he ate big guys for brunch dempsey was the lighter taller tyson of the 20,s with more heart and slightly better boxing skills,yes he did slug at times but when he needed to he could box inside outside as good as anyone,he would easily slip listons jab threw the hole fight ,if he didnt ko liston within the first 2 rounds destroying listons ribs and staying inside his wild swings dempseys boxing skills and power are always underrated people never seaing more than his first 2 rounds at willard

[abraq]

So, Mr. Magoo, we are having a Sonny Liston fest. Good.

Well, I pick Liston in this one. Simply, too big and strong. Expect Dempsey to have his moments in the early going, though.

[Maxmomer]

50/50.

[pugilist_boyd]

i really like sonny he is prob. in my top 10 heavys but he didnt back peddle or hold and against dempsey i dont care how big u r the almost 400 pnd valuev would crumble

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston TKO4.

[OLD FOGEY]

Dempsey was arguably the best slugger of all time.. Can we really see Liston pulling this one off???

Dempsey might actually have the perfect style to defeat Liston. Johansson emphasized after watching Liston on film that Liston's style was to get off first, and that Liston looked faster than he was because he was always coming forward, but when opponents such as Machen or Besmanoff attacked him, he was awkward and not that defensively adept. Other than perhaps Williams in a round or two, who attacks Liston on film? Dempsey has both the mobility to avoid and slip a lot of Liston's jabs and superior speed, and he would attack Liston.

Most modern analysts make the assumption that Liston would be as effective against a swarmer as Foreman was against Frazier. But is this true? What happens if Sonny is attacked before he can start his bull like rushes? Would that long jab be effective against a fighter who bobbed and weaved rapidly inside?

Dempsey would be an entirely different kettle of fish from the box at a distance opponents Liston dominated. Whitehurst said the key to fighting Liston was to get inside. Patterson, Harris, Folley, and Williams were all periphery fighters. Dempsey is going to be on top of Liston.

I take Dempsey in an upset as having the style and punch to upend the slower moving Liston.

[Stonehands89]

We tend to forget how dangerous 1919 Dempsey was.

This is one fight where Liston's ponderous style may cost him. I would expect that Liston would bumrush the smaller Dempsey as he did Floyd, but Dempsey's bobs and weaves were as much leverage builders as they were evasions. Dempsey would land coming out of those weaves and there would be zero intimidation here. It would probably be a furious fight, but if Dempsey fails to hurt him, Dempsey will be in trouble.

I'd favor Liston, very slightly and only because I'd count on him to survive the Dempsey attack and eventually repel it. Where ever Liston lands on Dempsey, it's going to hurt and eventually slow him down.

[joe the great]

Interesting fight but I would favor Jack in this one.

[SuzieQ49]

Other than perhaps Williams in a round or two, who attacks Liston on film? Dempsey has both the mobility to avoid and slip a lot of Liston's jabs and superior speed, and he would attack Liston.
Most modern analysts make the assumption that Liston would be as effective against a swarmer as Foreman was against Frazier. But is this true? What happens if Sonny is attacked before he can start his bull like rushes? Would that long jab be effective against a fighter who bobbed and weaved rapidly inside?





Yes its true, floyd patterson a top swarmer came in on liston and last 300 seconds in 2 fights.


Sonny Listons record against FAST handed sluggers who come into him is 4-0(4kos) Williams 2x and Patterson 2x. if theres one thing you cant critisize liston for in his career, its his ability to destroy swarmers coming into him

make no mistake about it, unless ur name is joe louis you cannot come into sonny liston and win. hes too strong and powerful. to beat liston you have to be able to dance circles around him.



I still cant get that firpo fight out of my mind where dempsey came into a man with listons size and he got floored 3 times and nearly knocked out. firpo was nothing compared to liston in terms of strength power and ability. perhaps jack was more vunerable against sluggers than we thought. I would also like to mention while jack did well vs tall guys, liston was not tall he was shorter than ljack, so dempsey might find this kind of ackward.


Dempseys will bob and weave nicley and perhaps slip his jab, but when he gets into midrange he will either get caught by terrific uppercuts, or mauled and overpowered once he gets to the inside. I like liston by early TKO. Dempsey liked to start early but unfortunlety he gets sent home early. In a matchup like this where both come forward, you pick the bigger man whos stronger more powerful and more durable. while you do have to take ring science into the equation, you will see no one has a significant edge in that over the other fighter, and liston was a rare long armed fighter who could fight from the inside and outside, a dangerous combination. so it boils down to foreman-frazier type thing.


Ironically i think jack does far better vs ali than liston does.

[janitor]

"I am invincible. I am Sonny Liston. I am Jack Dempsey".

Mike Tyson

Liston was the ultimate aura of menace.

Jack Dempsey took so many beatings in bare knuckle fights as a 14 year old that he was afraid of nothing.

These are the two men who Mike tyson wanted to be.

[SuzieQ49]

Jack Dempsey had back muscles like bruno samartino. Dont know where jack got him, but it helped him obtain his god given punching power.

[OLD FOGEY]

Yes its true, floyd patterson a top swarmer came in on liston and last 300 seconds in 2 fights.


Sonny Listons record against FAST handed sluggers who come into him is 4-0(4kos) Williams 2x and Patterson 2x. if theres one thing you cant critisize liston for in his career, its his ability to destroy swarmers coming into him

make no mistake about it, unless ur name is joe louis you cannot come into sonny liston and win. hes too strong and powerful. to beat liston you have to be able to dance circles around him.



I still cant get that firpo fight out of my mind where dempsey came into a man with listons size and he got floored 3 times and nearly knocked out. firpo was nothing compared to liston in terms of strength power and ability. perhaps jack was more vunerable against sluggers than we thought. I would also like to mention while jack did well vs tall guys, liston was not tall he was shorter than ljack, so dempsey might find this kind of ackward.


Dempseys will bob and weave nicley and perhaps slip his jab, but when he gets into midrange he will either get caught by terrific uppercuts, or mauled and overpowered once he gets to the inside. I like liston by early TKO. Dempsey liked to start early but unfortunlety he gets sent home early. In a matchup like this where both come forward, you pick the bigger man whos stronger more powerful and more durable. while you do have to take ring science into the equation, you will see no one has a significant edge in that over the other fighter, and liston was a rare long armed fighter who could fight from the inside and outside, a dangerous combination. so it boils down to foreman-frazier type thing.


Ironically i think jack does far better vs ali than liston does.

1. We have to disagree on Patterson. He is a swarmer who didn't swarm. He tended to stand and wait and not let his hands go. Liston carried the fight to him. If Dempsey fights like that, of course he loses, but I think Dempsey moves around on the outside and then comes in fast, as he did against Willard. I just don't think Patterson is the paradigm for what happens to every other heavyweight.

2. "Firpo was nothing compared to Liston in terms of strength, power, and ability." Ability, yes. Strength and power? How do you know? Firpo was actually bigger and he punched very hard.

3. Against which opponent did Liston show this great inside fighting ability? Whitehurst described getting inside on Liston as fighting in the eye of a hurricane. He was really tough if you were on the periphery, but get close and you were okay.

[Shareef]

Liston would kick Dempsey's ass. The old saying that Dempsey destroys and eats big fighters up is trash. Fred Fulton is not Lennox Lewis, Willard is not Foreman, and Firpo is not Liston. Liston would wipe the floor with Dempsey. Dempsey's title run consisted of beating up 170lb fighters like Carpentier and Gibbons. Shit, when Tyson beats up Spinks he's just a light heavyweight. When Liston whups on Patterson he is too small. Dempsey is one of the most overrated all time greats.

Liston KO inside of 6.

[OLD FOGEY]

Liston would kick Dempsey's ass. The old saying that Dempsey destroys and eats big fighters up is trash. Fred Fulton is not Lennox Lewis, Willard is not Foreman, and Firpo is not Liston. Liston would wipe the floor with Dempsey. Dempsey's title run consisted of beating up 170lb fighters like Carpentier and Gibbons. Shit, when Tyson beats up Spinks he's just a light heavyweight. When Liston whups on Patterson he is too small. Dempsey is one of the most overrated all time greats.

Liston KO inside of 6.

Fulton and Willard not being Lewis or Foreman I think is not much of a point, as Liston didn't defeat Lewis or Foreman either. How does Fulton compare to Valdes or Firpo to Williams or Willard to DeJohn might be more reasonable questions.

[SuzieQ49]

How does Fulton compare to Valdes or Firpo to Williams or Willard to DeJohn might be more reasonable questions.


Firpo was about 10x slower and much cruder than williams. we dont know about fulton, but on film valdez had a tremendous left hand jab and powerful two fisted punching attack. Willard to dejohn is a decent comparison except willard was 37 and way over the hill/inactive when he took on jack.

[Sardu]

I like Dempsey by early kayo in a surprisingly easy fight.

Dempsey KO 3 Liston

[SuzieQ49]

2. "Firpo was nothing compared to Liston in terms of strength, power, and ability." Ability, yes. Strength and power? How do you know? Firpo was actually bigger and he punched very hard.


I will tell you why. On Film firpo did not get any leverage into his punches, he did not torque his body into punches which you are taught at basic level in boxing gyms across america. he did not have good punching technique while sonny liston had excellent punching technique.

While firpo was bigger than sonny, sonny was in much better physical shape and is clearly the much stronger fighter which is more important. firpo was fat and blubbery, liston had physical dimensions of a superheavyweight.


1. We have to disagree on Patterson. He is a swarmer who didn't swarm. He tended to stand and wait and not let his hands go. Liston carried the fight to him. If Dempsey fights like that, of course he loses, but I think Dempsey moves around on the outside and then comes in fast, as he did against Willard. I just don't think Patterson is the paradigm for what happens to every other heavyweight.



a swarmer who didnt swarm? what about the way he swarmed all over hurricane jackson and archie moore? the way he smothered eddie machen for 12 one sided rounds?

He tended to stand and wait and not let his hands go. Liston carried the fight to him.


he didnt let his hands go because sonny was just way to for him and he realized that early and painfully. in the 2nd fight he tried to let his hands go and it didnt work out well at all.

3. Against which opponent did Liston show this great inside fighting ability? Whitehurst described getting inside on Liston as fighting in the eye of a hurricane. He was really tough if you were on the periphery, but get close and you were okay.

On film, he knocks down williams the first time in the 3rd round with a left hook on the inside. in the patterson rematch he knocks out floyd with a left hook that traveled no more than 6". sonny was so strong he tossed men around on the inside. nino valdez zora folley and eddie machen called sonny by far the strongest man they ever fought. i think sonnys strength is a big factor, hes arguebably one of the strongest heavyweights who ever lived. willie reddish called walcott and liston the two strongest heavyweights he had ever seen.

He was really tough if you were on the periphery, but get close and you were okay.


i dont think so because patterson tried that out and got owned with short hooks and uppercuts.


but I think Dempsey moves around on the outside and then comes in fast, as he did against Willard.


jack liked to stick his head out alot though when doing that something u never want to do vs liston, and dempsey never faced a big skilled powerful man with a 84" reach like liston. it would be a real challenge. like u said in another thread, dempsey when on the attack lets his gaurd down alot, he becomes vunerable to hit while on the offensive.

[Bummy Davis]

Liston had the look and he was powerfull but Jack hit hard and was fast...It would be a tough couple of Rounds but I see Soony going down like he did against 190lb Leotis, Jack would have to adjust to Sonnys jab

[OLD FOGEY]

I will tell you why. On Film firpo did not get any leverage into his punches, he did not torque his body into punches which you are taught at basic level in boxing gyms across america. he did not have good punching technique while sonny liston had excellent punching technique.

While firpo was bigger than sonny, sonny was in much better physical shape and is clearly the much stronger fighter which is more important. firpo was fat and blubbery, liston had physical dimensions of a superheavyweight.




a swarmer who didnt swarm? what about the way he swarmed all over hurricane jackson and archie moore? the way he smothered eddie machen for 12 one sided rounds?




he didnt let his hands go because sonny was just way to for him and he realized that early and painfully. in the 2nd fight he tried to let his hands go and it didnt work out well at all.



On film, he knocks down williams the first time in the 3rd round with a left hook on the inside. in the patterson rematch he knocks out floyd with a left hook that traveled no more than 6". sonny was so strong he tossed men around on the inside. nino valdez zora folley and eddie machen called sonny by far the strongest man they ever fought. i think sonnys strength is a big factor, hes arguebably one of the strongest heavyweights who ever lived. willie reddish called walcott and liston the two strongest heavyweights he had ever seen.




i dont think so because patterson tried that out and got owned with short hooks and uppercuts.





jack liked to stick his head out alot though when doing that something u never want to do vs liston, and dempsey never faced a big skilled powerful man with a 84" reach like liston. it would be a real challenge. like u said in another thread, dempsey when on the attack lets his gaurd down alot, he becomes vunerable to hit while on the offensive.

1. Dempsey lets his gaurd down while on offensive--Yes. And a good point. But, seriously, watch the films of Liston against Patterson. Liston comes forward throwing punches with his hands at his side.

2. Liston was far more skilled than Firpo and Firpo might have been an arm puncher, though not always. Firpo did not have a body beautiful but he was no Galento either. He was a pretty solid 216 lber in my judgement. It is hard to compare Dempsey to Liston because of the different rules, but Dempsey would come forward against Liston and he certainly could fight inside. Liston would have to be a lot more careful in going after Dempsey than he was with Patterson.

3. Liston faster than Firpo--This is certainly a blind guess given the quality of the films of Firpo and the difficulty of knowing if they are running at the proper speed. It is at least possible Firpo was the quicker man, but who knows? One thing is certain or at least very probable. Dempsey was quicker than either of them.

4. I just watched the fight with Patterson and the 2nd fight with Williams and saw no short punches on either.

5. Yes. Patterson did not swarm Liston. I thought he largely boxed Moore. Jackson swarmed him. Against Liston, Patterson was rather passive. Watch the film. It is target practice for Liston. In the first fight, Patterson actually grabs the rope, a rather dubious survival strategy. I don't think Dempsey fights this foolishly.

6. Dempsey did fight men like Fulton who had a good left and a reach at least close to Liston's.

[OLD FOGEY]

Firpo was about 10x slower and much cruder than williams. we dont know about fulton, but on film valdez had a tremendous left hand jab and powerful two fisted punching attack. Willard to dejohn is a decent comparison except willard was 37 and way over the hill/inactive when he took on jack.

1. It depends who is matched with whom, but Fulton at 27 might have been just plain better than the 35 year old Valdes. He was coming off a win over Langford and would lose over the next four years only to Wills. Valdes was losing to ordinary fighters such as Alonzo Johnson and Charley Powell.

2. Willard was much bigger than DeJohn and certainly managed bigger wins in his career. He was getting old, but DeJohn never was any more than ordinary.

3. Dempsey beat Willard and Fulton even more impressively than Liston beat Valdes and DeJohn.

4. Williams is certainly a ton more skilled than Firpo, but if he fights Firpo with that left down at his side, an upset might be a stronger possibility than you allow. I would actually like to see these two men fight.

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey at his best could take the fight. His sheer aggressiveness and speed would be enough to throw Liston off for a while. Dempsey would need to keep it on the inside as much as possible, as he was the better in-fighter, and would be able to get more shots off faster and possibly with more power in close. He would also need to make sure he didn't charge in stupid, and use lateral and head/upper body movement as much as possible. If Dempsey could keep it in close, and evade most of Liston's big punches, I can see him winning. It's still a 50/50 for me, though. Both of these guys are in my top 5 head to head heavyweights of all time.

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey was never KO'd and therefore had a better chin than Liston, who was KO'd in one punch by Ali. This fight would be a KO win for Dempsey. They both hit hard but in the end chin and stamina would decide it for Jack. Not to mention Dempsey's speed and cruelty.

You're obviously biased. If you're going to disregard Dempsey's first round KO loss to Flynn, you might as well disregard Liston's to Ali. Neither one was legitimate, in my opinion. I don't think either one has a huge advantage in chin.

[Rock0052]

I'm leaning slightly towards Dempsey, but this would've been a hell of a fight. One of my favorite hypothetical matchups.

[RockyJim]

The 1919 Dempsey was vicious.....AND....Sonny QUIT on his stool against the light-hitting Ali in 1964...Jack by KO in this one!!!

[Stonehands89]

The 1919 Dempsey was vicious.....AND....Sonny QUIT on his stool against the light-hitting Ali in 1964...Jack by KO in this one!!!
That is an oversimplication, to say the least. You shouldn't pick one guy at his best and the other guy in a fight where he barely trained and was past it.

Try 1919 Dempsey vs. 1959 Liston.

[Maxmomer]

Jack Dempsey had back muscles like bruno samartino. Dont know where jack got him

Probably from all the physically demanding jobs he partook in when he wasn't fighting. Mining, cutting down trees and so on from a young age.

[Maxmomer]

That is an oversimplication, to say the least. You shouldn't pick one guy at his best and the other guy in a fight where he barely trained and was past it.

Try 1919 Dempsey vs. 1959 Liston.

I concur. Prime and motivated Liston definitely had heart. Four rounds with a broken jaw is pretty hardcore.