Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

[mr. magoo]

good Jab, height, great conditioning, etc. We know the recipe....

[standing 8countboxing]

I tend to agree with this one as well, however, with Wlad's chin, Liston could do the deed. Depends which Wlad shows up.

[Seamus]

Without little doubt WK tears him up over 8 or 9 rounds. Not a good matchup for the old bear.

[québecwarrior]

WK would beat him up

[SuzieQ49]

Without little doubt WK tears him up over 8 or 9 rounds. Not a good matchup for the old bear.


Wlad lacks a chin to even a stand a chance against liston

[rekcutnevets]

Wlad may very well be capable of doing it. Wlad out sizes Liston almost everywhere except reach, and is strong enough not to get bullied.

Liston may very well lose to Vitali as well.

[SuzieQ49]

if a slow stationary predictable sam peter can land and floor wlad 3 times and nearly out, i only imagine what listons punches will do.

[LennoxGOAT]

Both Klits beat up on Liston. Too little and can't impose his strength on either. Prime for prime, which Wlad hasn't reached yet, both beat Liston. And easily.

[ChrisPontius]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. We're talking about the big ugly bear here. He broke legs for the mob for Christs sake. He dwarfs Klitschko just like he did Patterson.

[abraq]

Wlad Klitschko , who got kayoed by Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster and (almost) by Sam Peters, easily beats Sonny Liston.

Now you are telling me!!! Heavens.

[mrbassie]

good Jab, height, great conditioning, etc. We know the recipe....
Better jab, longer reach, better stamina, better boxing skills, much better chin.....that's another recipe: Liston early ko.

[janitor]

The only way Wlad would beat Liston is with a stick while he slept.

[ron u.k.]

so this is the same wlad with all the so called physical advantages,who was ultra cautious and refused to engage the 219 pound ibragimov.what would he be like with the brooding,menacing figure of liston in front of him.i believe liston would knock him out inside eight rounds.

[Unforgiven]

so this is the same wlad with all the so called physical advantages,who was ultra cautious and refused to engage the 219 pound ibragimov.what would he be like with the brooding,menacing figure of liston in front of him.i believe liston would knock him out inside eight rounds.

The klitschko-Ibragimov thing was the worst event ever advertised as a "heavyweight championship FIGHT" that I've ever witnessed.
It looked like they were playing that "knuckles" game, just slapping each other's gloves.
I was left wondering whether it some sort of Russo-Ukrainian folk dance ritual.

Klitschko is a pathetic excuse for a heavyweight champion.

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston would knock Wlad out. :yep

[Holmes' Jab]

The only way Wlad would beat Liston is with a stick while he slept.

:D

In reality Wlad has some of the fundamental tools required to have a go at getting the job done, but against Liston that job is going to be one he wouldn't bridge. The earlier version would trade and ultimately get starched, whilst the more defensively solid recent version would fare OK on the crorecards, up until the later rounds: when Liston would ultimately catch up to him, and close the show. The chin issue in both cases is why

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.

[round15]

Liston would KO both Wlad and Vitali probably in the same night, 5 rounds apiece with the right training and corner. There is no way either Klitschko would have stood up to a prime Liston. Forget the Ali fights and say whatever you want about the mob being in control of Liston's career at that time. Pound for pound, people forget that the Klitschko's are tall, lanky fighters almost built like basketball players. Sure, they are both very athletic and physically gifted fighters but I fail to see how either brother can be compared to Liston, Foreman and Shavers in terms of pure power.

[janitor]

:D

In reality Wlad has some of the fundamental tools required to have a go at getting the job done, but against Liston that job is going to be one he wouldn't bridge. The earlier version would trade and ultimately get starched, whilst the more defensively solid recent version would fare OK on the crorecards, up until the later rounds: when Liston would ultimately catch up to him, and close the show. The chin issue in both cases is why

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.

Liston in many ways is the superheavyweights ultimate nightmare.

He has the reach in terms of artilery to engage them at long range while he is substantialy shorter, alowing him to duck under their punches, while they are unable to do the same with his. In naval terms he is what we would call a monitor. A small ship with the guns of a much bigger ship that has a verry low profile and is hard to hit.


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I dont just think he would beat Wlad I think he could verry likley beat Lewis as well.

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis vs Liston is a toss up. I just can't decide, maybe slight edge to Lewis actually, but a decision verdict is the most likely outcome and wouldn't surprise me whichever way it went. Either could knock the other out too: whilst Liston has the stronger chin, Lewis is the bigger and more athletic man. Liston was the most adaptable boxer-slugger in HW history, whilst Lewis was equally adept from the outside or inside too.

Lewis would need to jab and move whislt setting up for the big overhand right, and aim to stay away from Listons firing line, he doesn't want to be near the ropes. He need to maintain a high workrate to pull the win off: but he's realistically got as good a chance as more or less any fighter would have against Liston

[Minotauro]

Liston doesn't even stand a chance does he even compare to like of Sanders, Brewster or the all time great Puritty I don't think so. Nobody can beat Wlad not even a master boxer like Peter could do it despite displaying subtleties that haven't been seen since the great Willie Pep.
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[ChrisPontius]

Lewis vs Liston is a toss up. I just can't decide, maybe slight edge to Lewis actually, but a decision verdict is the most likely outcome and wouldn't surprise me whichever way it went. Either could knock the other out too: whilst Liston has the stronger chin, Lewis is the bigger and more athletic man. Liston was the most adaptable boxer-slugger in HW history, whilst Lewis was equally adept from the outside or inside too.

Lewis would need to jab and move whislt setting up for the big overhand right, and aim to stay away from Listons firing line, he doesn't want to be near the ropes. He need to maintain a high workrate to pull the win off: but he's realistically got as good a chance as more or less any fighter would have against Liston

I would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston. Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds; Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston. Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power, more fluid combinations, never showed a stylistic problem nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him. Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Liston.

[ChrisPontius]

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.

I suggest you watch some Klitschko fights and Liston's after/before that. Wlad's hands are much faster, he is at least as powerful, much bigger and takes away any inside game an opponent has. He is also faster on his feet and more athletic. Of course, his chin is much weaker, although he had the disadvantage of fighting much bigger opponents than most of Liston's cruiserweights as well as fighting in an era with more emphasis on strength and power.

[janitor]

I suggest you watch some Klitschko fights and Liston's after/before that. Wlad's hands are much faster,

People make the observation that Listons hands were not the fastest and they wernt. This is his main weakness.

Unfortunately for Wlad this is his only technical weakness.

Liston had prety much everything. Ring generalship, fighting instinct, ability to read an oponents intentions, infighting ability, outfighting ability, everything between, ofense, defense.

Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.

[ChrisPontius]

Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.

Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.

[Holmes' Jab]

OK then I've looked back over some respective clips of both. Wlad's maybe got a minor edge in handspeed, fair enough then. Bigger man, yes but Liston's insane reach will nullify that. Plus Liston hardly passive on the inside, he's easily as strong from a physical perspective. He's going to get there at some stage and wreak absolute havok.

No version of Wlad is in the same bracket as the likes of a Lewis. I think Bowe was a better fighter than him too.

[janitor]

Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.

If Sonny Liston had fast hands then he would have been like a more instinctive version of Joe Louis with an 84" reach but he didnt.

Even if Wlad had an iron chin there would still be some major gaps in his makeup which would prevent me from picking him over Liston or Lewis for that matter. I dont think his infighting ability would be enough for Liston to be honest.

Personaly I think that Big Cat Williams would have an excelent chance of picking up part of the title today and I wish that Wlad was fighting him this weekend instead of Tony Tomphson.

[Sakura]

People make the observation that Listons hands were not the fastest and they wernt. This is his main weakness.

Unfortunately for Wlad this is his only technical weakness.

Liston had prety much everything. Ring generalship, fighting instinct, ability to read an oponents intentions, infighting ability, outfighting ability, everything between, ofense, defense.

Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.

Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.

[Holmes' Jab]

nice call janitor: Williams was a damn fine fighter indeed around the time he faced Liston. Sadly he's remember by some morseo for his one-sided, quickfire loss against Ali by which time he was spent.

[janitor]

Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.

If sombody has a heavy punch his chances against Wlad are significantly better than zero.

[ChrisPontius]

I dont think his infighting ability would be enough for Liston to be honest.

How much of his fights have you seen?


OK then I've looked back over some respective clips of both. Wlad's maybe got a minor edge in handspeed, fair enough then. Bigger man, yes but Liston's insane reach will nullify that. Plus Liston hardly passive on the inside, he's easily as strong from a physical perspective. He's going to get there at some stage and wreak absolute havok.

No version of Wlad is in the same bracket as the likes of a Lewis. I think Bowe was a better fighter than him too.



I would say it's more than just a minor edge.

Although i think YouTube isn't really appropriate because you miss things in the low quality, take a gander at this:

oqIDl-_5HZY


aPzFM7U_YDg




This to me is more than just a minor speed advantage. Very impressive considering he's 6'6 240-250lbs to Liston's 6'0 204-214lbs.

[janitor]

How much of his fights have you seen?


I have to say that I have not seen much of his career.

What I have observed in the fights I have seen however is that he makes verry little use of the uppercut and dose not have a well developed suite of infighting skills.

Now unless I am missing something this is a serious gap in his makeup. He might get away with it against Peter or Ibragimov but against a Liston or a Lewis it is going to be a problem.

[Sakura]

If sombody has a heavy punch his chances against Wlad are significantly better than zero.

You must firstly hit the target and thats not easy with bad hand speed. His reflex are more than very good..

[unitas]

wlad would certainly have a much better chance than most old timers would have you believe.

wlads height, reach, skills and power are enough to give him a shot vs just about anyone in history.

but his chin is certainly his weak spot, as well as his stammina and he simply doesnt fight well when he is forced out of his gameplan.

he just is not a "give and take" type of guy. either he dominates or he loses. he doesnt get hurt, dropped battered and comes back and wins.

so in theory, beating wlad sounds easy.

in theory. but in reality, this is different. getting wlad out of his stride means you either have to bullrush and overwhelm him..............OR you have to back him up with your own superior jab and take it from there.
the latter has never been done.

and bullrushing a "on" wlad is like running through a minefield. if you walk into one of his shots, you get hurt. or worse. simple as that.

so could liston do either??

yes to the bullrush. outjab him and back him up.................maybe. maybe not.

but while people are quick to point out that wlad lacks that warriorlike "give and take" attitude..............dont forget, liston was a bit of a bully himself.

what would his mental reaction be to seeing wlad in person..........all 6´7 and 250 pounds of him??? and how would he react once he feels wlads considerable power??

cause this could work the other way round as well. envision the following scenario: wlad coming out and outjabbing liston, backing him with a couple of hard jabs, then a right hand.
liston backs into the ropes, wlad throws a double left hook..........first one hurts liston, the second one drops him. then liston just saying: no thank you sir...............and the ref counting ten.

the more i think about it, the greater i see wlads chances.

[janitor]

You must firstly hit the target and thats not easy with bad hand speed. His reflex are more than very good..

It is not that Listons hand speed is bad it just isnt as good as Wlads.

He made up for it in other ways however.

Liston was a master at reading an opponent.

While Wlad waits for an oponent to do something and then reacts to it, Liston predicted what his opponent would do next and often had the punche loaded and aimed before they moved into position.

This alowed him to beat much faster fighters to the punch.

[Sakura]

It is not that Listons hand speed is bad it just isnt as good as Wlads.

He made up for it in other ways however.

Liston was a master at reading an opponent.

While Wlad waits for an oponent to do something and then reacts to it, Liston predicted what his opponent would do next and often had the punche loaded and aimed before they moved into position.

This alowed him to beat much faster fighters to the punch.
Liston gives , in my opinion these advantages on Klitchko. Speed, Size, strenght and power...both are skilled fighters..can Liston win?

[ChrisPontius]

I have to say that I have not seen much of his career.

What I have observed in the fights I have seen however is that he makes verry little use of the uppercut and dose not have a well developed suite of infighting skills.

Now unless I am missing something this is a serious gap in his makeup. He might get away with it against Peter or Ibragimov but against a Liston or a Lewis it is going to be a problem.

Well, you are correct in that he doesn't utilise the uppercut much, but he always ties his opponent up in close and uses footwork and heavy powershots the rest of the time to stay on the outside. Like it or not, but he's neutralised every inside fighting skill with clinching. That is not to say he can't fight on the inside, of course. His left hook is extremely fast and powerful. Just that for a 6'6" man with long arms it's giving your opponent an advantage he should not have by fighting on the inside.

[Polymath]

Liston gives , in my opinion these advantages on Klitchko. Speed, Size, strenght and power...both are skilled fighters..can Liston win?

Klitschko isnt as big and huge as some of you seem to think. He's pumped up on weights to get to 238lbs - naturally he's what? 210? He's more Ernie Terrell than Lennox lewis. He also has very short arms for a guy as tall as he is.

[Polymath]

Klitschko's reach is only 80", average for a heavy.

[Polymath]

Klitschko is a big man, but he isnt some 10ft tall invincible Terminator like you guys think, look how long and thin his neck is, thats a horrible physical disadvantage for a fighter.

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[Sakura]

Klitschko's reach is only 80", average for a heavy.

More than average and if that is right reach. Wlad was 6'6 and we all see he was bigger than Austin or Thompson..boxrec numbers are often wrong.

[Polymath]

More than average and if that is right reach. Wlad was 6'6 and we all see he was bigger than Austin or Thompson..boxrec numbers are often wrong.

Austin was listed 6-6 but is probably less - did you see David haye confront Klit? Haye looked 2-3 inches shorter and not much samller averall, and he's a Cruiserweight (ableit an oversized one.)

[Polymath]

More than average

Is it? How many good heavies do you see with 70-odd inch reaches? Not many.

[Sakura]

Dunno Luan krasnigi reach 30? and thompson 81,1/2, austin 80...

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Well, you are correct in that he doesn't utilise the uppercut much, but he always ties his opponent up in close and uses footwork and heavy powershots the rest of the time to stay on the outside. Like it or not, but he's neutralised every inside fighting skill with clinching.

He has neutralised every inside fighting skill in average fighters.

Give him sombody actualy who knows how to infight and it wont wash.

[Polymath]

Dunno Luan krasnigi reach 30? and thompson 81,1/2, austin 80...

That's arm length :lol:

And as youve just shown by listing Thompson & Autin, Klitschko's reach is nothing special :good

[janitor]

Liston gives , in my opinion these advantages on Klitchko. Speed, Size, strenght and power...both are skilled fighters..can Liston win?

I will give you speed.

Outside of that Liston either has the edge in everything or it is debatable.

[Sakura]

That's arm length :lol:

And as youve just shown by listing Thompson & Autin, Klitschko's reach is nothing special :good

Boxrec:yep Well we must agree, that size doesnt give advantage at Klitchko so give me to name who nail him?

[Polymath]

Boxrec:yep Well we must agree, that size doesnt give advantage at Klitchko so give me to name who nail him?

ARe you asking who I think will beat Klitschko?

[Sakura]

I will give you speed.

Outside of that Liston either has the edge in everything or it is debatable.

Maybe, if wolverine have advantage over his size against grizzly bear...

[ChrisPontius]

He has neutralised every inside fighting skill in average fighters.

Give him sombody actualy who knows how to infight and it wont wash.
Well i think you're over simplifying things a bit. Everyone, and i mean everyone who fought Klitschko knew that they had to get inside and fight there to make it count. What happened? They either got knocked out trying to do so or were tied up. Brewster and Purrity beat him by simply outlasting him and Sanders by a brilliant combinations of counter punch timing, unorthodox southpaw stance, great hand speed and last but not least, a ton of power. I know you're trying to run your usual little man's argument that "all one needs to do is be able to fight on the inside and you win", but calling several top contenders "average" is not gonna do the trick.



I will give you speed.

Outside of that Liston either has the edge in everything or it is debatable.

Klitschko has a big edge in heart. That is, unless he quits on his stool after 6 rounds with Thompson next weekend.

[Polymath]

I will give you speed.

Outside of that Liston either has the edge in everything or it is debatable.

Liston was slow by any standards (obviously not helped by age; well past physical peak in his more well known fights) - but his timing, reach, suprising inside fighting ability and overall skill make him a sure bet to steamroll the glass jawed Klitschko, even as an old man.

[Sakura]

Liston was slow by any standards (obviously not helped by age; well past physical peak in his more well known fights) - but his timing, reach, suprising inside fighting ability and overall skill make him a sure bet to steamroll the glass jawed Klitschko, even as an old man.

I think Mercer think same...

[Polymath]

I think Mercer think same...

What, Ray Mercer? :lol: Klitshcko beat Mercer, you know? Klit has some embarrassing losses but he still managed to beat 'ol Ray.

[Sakura]

What, Ray Mercer? :lol: Klitshcko beat Mercer, you know? Klit has some embarrassing losses but he still managed to beat 'ol Ray.

Old Ray, but still Ray...old Liston also. So, who well give wlad real beating?

[Polymath]

Old Ray, but still Ray...old Liston also. So, who well give wlad real beating?

Current fighters?

[Sakura]

Current fighters?

Yes

[Polymath]

Yes

I'd favour him to beat everybody. However, anybody with speed or power has a chance of exposing his undeniably frail chin. The biggest threat to him currently is Peter, who, if he comes in good shape and at a decent weight, has a good chance to KO him. However, if I had to predict a result of Klit/Peter II it'd be Klitschko UD12.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Well i think you're over simplifying things a bit. Everyone, and i mean everyone who fought Klitschko knew that they had to get inside and fight there to make it count. What happened? They either got knocked out trying to do so or were tied up. Brewster and Purrity beat him by simply outlasting him and Sanders by a brilliant combinations of counter punch timing, unorthodox southpaw stance, great hand speed and last but not least, a ton of power. I know you're trying to run your usual little man's argument that "all one needs to do is be able to fight on the inside and you win", but calling several top contenders "average" is not gonna do the trick.


Verry few heavyweights today have a sound suite of infighting skills. I personaly cant think of one. This is a major factor in Wlads sucess at neutralising oponents by holding onto them. There comes a point in terms of quality of oponents where his lack of ability to fight on the inside will be a problem.

Otherwise why did Lewis and Bowe bother to learn infighting if they could neutralise anything an oponent could throw at them just by holding?

Even if we put the infighting argument to one side, dose Liston even need to fight on the inside?

He has 4" of reach on Wlad which is a fair amount even though he will be working uphill.

Klitschko has a big edge in heart. That is, unless he quits on his stool after 6 rounds with Thompson next weekend.

Here I have to differ.

Klitschko is no coward but he is a little gunshy and Liston certainly has the cooler head under fire. If it must be a war then Liston will aclimatize better.

[Sakura]

I'd favour him to beat everybody. However, anybody with speed or power has a chance of exposing his undeniably frail chin. The biggest threat to him currently is Peter, who, if he comes in good shape and at a decent weight, has a good chance to KO him. However, if I had to predict a result of Klit/Peter II it'd be Klitschko UD12.

Very careful prediction. Haye has best chance to do it....someone else, no..

Lewis Ko'ed 2 times in 44 fights and wlad have already 53 fights and in probality he will lost very soon...

[janitor]

Maybe, if wolverine have advantage over his size against grizzly bear...

What do we mean by size?

Wlad is taller but this advantages can be a bit of a mixed blessing against an oponent with longer arms.

If Wlad throws a punch, Liston will be able to duck under while Wlad will only be able to pull backwards.

[Polymath]

Very careful prediction. Haye has best chance to do it....someone else, no..

Lewis Ko'ed 2 times in 44 fights and wlad have already 53 fights and in probality he will lost very soon...

Yes, I like Haye and will follow him closely. However, without having had a meaningful fight as a heavyweight, predicting his victory of the current consensus Champ would be premature.

[Sakura]

What do we mean by size?

Wlad is taller but this advantages can be a bit of a mixed blessing against an oponent with longer arms.

If Wlad throws a punch, Liston will be able to duck under while Wlad will only be able to pull backwards.

It wouldnt be so easy, atleast with new wlad...he would be like lewis leaning backwards...

[ChrisPontius]

Otherwise why did Lewis and Bowe bother to learn infighting if they could neutralise anything an oponent could throw at them just by holding?



Because their fighting hearts were bigger than their brains. Especially in Bowe's case.

Lewis made a very close fight with Mercer because he didn't mind trading on the inside. Mercer did better than expected with the jab, which is why it's being mentioned often, but most of his best work was on the inside.


Even if we put the infighting argument to one side, dose Liston even need to fight on the inside?

He has 4" of reach on Wlad which is a fair amount even though he will be working uphill.



Yes, and for the following reasons:
-Wlad has better footspeed than Liston.
-Wlad has better handspeed than Liston.
-Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston. Liston may have a longer wingspan, but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off. Ali has a measured reach anywhere from 79 to 82, yet he totally dominated Liston's 84. Williams is measured at 80", but his arms look at least as long if not longer than Liston's on film. You could call the timing factor even, but Klitschko holds an edge in speed and a huge edge in height here.
-Wlad knows how to use his size to stay on the outside better than almost anyone in history.



Here I have to differ.

Klitschko is no coward but he is a little gunshy and Liston certainly has the cooler head under fire. If it must be a war then Liston will aclimatize better.

Liston is more relaxed for sure. But given the blatant way Liston gave up after cheating didn't work i cannot see how you can give Liston an edge in heart. Inexplicable actually. Wlad has always gotten up and gone on no matter the odds. When things get rough on Liston, there's no telling what he'll do, as we saw.

[Sakura]

Yes, I like Haye and will follow him closely. However, without having had a meaningful fight as a heavyweight, predicting his victory of the current consensus Champ would be premature.

Better choise than Peter..wlad learn quickly....Peter has no chance anymore.

Haye get almost Ko'ed by Mock who is no hard puncher. But still because Hayes punching power and speed i give him better chance than Peter...

[Polymath]

Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston. Liston may have a longer wingspan, but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off.

I've boxed all my life. While I doubt its even possible to box at any serious level in the Nederlands. So there's the 'anyone who's boxed' crap dealt with.


Reach is relatively more important than height, imo
Liston also had better timing obviously.
Klitshcko has quicker hands.

[Sakura]

I've boxed all my life. While I doubt its even possible to box at any serious level in the Nederlands. So there's the 'anyone who's boxed' crap dealt with.


Reach is relatively more important than height, imo
Liston also had better timing obviously.
Klitshcko has quicker hands.

Belive me, your choice Peter will get grushed next time.

[Polymath]

Klitschko is completely stiff at the waist as well, absolutely zero upper body movement, never slipped punch in his life. these sort of subtleties (well, subtle to young guys who think a 6'6" guy with bulging biceps is invincible) make all the difference in fighting from range. Lets not forget Klitschko's chin, which makes him extremely tentative and fearful against even someone as inept as Sultan Igbragimov.

[Polymath]

Belive me, your choice Peter will get grushed next time.

?

I pick Klitshcko to beat Peter on points...

[Sakura]

Klitschko is completely stiff at the waist as well, absolutely zero upper body movement, never slipped punch in his life. these sort of subtleties (well, subtle to young guys who think a 6'6" guy with bulging biceps is invincible) make all the difference in fighting from range. Lets not forget Klitschko's chin, which makes him extremely tentative and fearful against even someone as inept as Sultan Igbragimov.

Firstly, Sultan Igbragimov give very hard fight to Savon in amateur ring. His skilled fighter, but he was totally without gun's against wladimir. Klitchkos chin is average not better or worst.

Ps.Emanuel Stewart was very weak boxer, but good trainer. His boxing eyes is good.

[Sakura]

?

I pick Klitshcko to beat Peter on points...

No, peter will be ko'ed...

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Because their fighting hearts were bigger than their brains. Especially in Bowe's case.


I cant agree here.

Bowe beat the smaller Holyfield by fighting with him on the inside and Holyfield won the rematch by boxing with him.

Infighting is part of a system and if you take away any part of that system you create a weakness regardless of the fighters style.


Lewis made a very close fight with Mercer because he didn't mind trading on the inside. Mercer did better than expected with the jab, which is why it's being mentioned often, but most of his best work was on the inside.


I dont think that Lewis would have done better if he had lacked infighting ability and had relied mainly on holding to neutralize Mercer on the inside.

I think he needed every tool he had in that fight.


Yes, and for the following reasons:
-Wlad has better footspeed than Liston.


Errrrm.

OK.

Liston is going to be cutting down the ring on him though.


-Wlad has better handspeed than Liston.


Granted

-Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston.

Hard to prove in practice.

but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off. Ali has a measured reach anywhere from 79 to 82, yet he totally dominated Liston's 84.

I dont think that Ali showed any edge in range in this fight.

Handspeed and mobility were obviously the keys .

Williams is measured at 80", but his arms look at least as long if not longer than Liston's on film.

But he proved to be at the physical disadvantage because Liston could reach him but was still short enough to duck under.

You could call the timing factor even,

Not really.

Liston has it by a country mile.

Liston was a master at reading an opponent.

While Wlad waits for an oponent to do something and then reacts to it, Liston predicted what his opponent would do next and often had the punche loaded and aimed before they moved into position.




Liston is more relaxed for sure. But given the blatant way Liston gave up after cheating didn't work i cannot see how you can give Liston an edge in heart. Inexplicable actually. Wlad has always gotten up and gone on no matter the odds. When things get rough on Liston, there's no telling what he'll do, as we saw.


I think that Listons calmness under fire is likely to be more important to the outcome of this fight than Wlads presumed unwillingness to quit.

Also it is only fair to observe that Liston did finish fights with some bad injuries earlier in his career. Winning the title can sap a fighters desire.

[SuzieQ49]

I would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston. Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds; Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston. Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power, more fluid combinations, never showed a stylistic problem nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him. Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Liston.


would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston


disagree


Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds


same with joe louis victims



Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston.


bigger but much less skilled and powerful than liston. liston had 15" fists and 84" reach, superheavyweight dimensions. he could easily carry extra weight.

Ray mercer was same height as liston, similiar style, he was 36 and he fought lennox dead even fight. outjabbed and outphyiscaled lennox. I think this fight shows u liston would defintley take lennox.



Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power,


lewis did not pocess as much power. lennox never floored a rated durable opponent. liston annihalated a rated granite chin fighter in 58 seconds. lennox could defintley hit but i rate his power slightly below listons and foremans.



more fluid combinations


liston had the much better body attack, and his uppercut repoirtre was far better. liston was a much better infighter than lennox too.




never showed a stylistic problem


is this a joke? lennox struggled with frank bruno, ray mercer, holyfield rematch, vitali klitschko, hasim rahman, oliver mcall, all exposed lennox in these fights.

listons top opposition patterson valdez williams folley machen were all clearly cleanly beaten.

liston in his prime never showed a stylistic problem. he dominated his top opposition with ease. you could mention clay, but no one in history had leg speed and movement like clay, certainly not lennox.


nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him


liston was never twice knocked out by one punch near his prime by non world beaters.


Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Lis


liston is the more scientific boxer, much better jab, and more accurate with his punches, and he equaled lennox in reach.

[Muchmoore]

so this is the same wlad with all the so called physical advantages,who was ultra cautious and refused to engage the 219 pound ibragimov.what would he be like with the brooding,menacing figure of liston in front of him.i believe liston would knock him out inside eight rounds.

:good

Liston is a monster and Wlad isn't fast enough to avoid Sonny like Ali.

[Muchmoore]

Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.

Yeah Ross Purrity and Lamon Brewster had lightning fast hands :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.


:lol: add to that mental toughness, stamina, inside fighting skills, jab and perhaps well talk. thing is wlad doesnt have it. liston is pretty much better in all areas than wlad outside of handspeed.



you call urself a fighter and u think wlad looks better on film than liston?

[SuzieQ49]

Well, you are correct in that he doesn't utilise the uppercut much, but he always ties his opponent up in close and uses footwork and heavy powershots the rest of the time to stay on the outside. Like it or not, but he's neutralised every inside fighting skill with clinching. That is not to say he can't fight on the inside, of course. His left hook is extremely fast and powerful. Just that for a 6'6" man with long arms it's giving your opponent an advantage he should not have by fighting on the inside.


yes he used to have back in the 1990s but not anymore, he barely uses it(save austin fight).....steward made him go right hand crazy.



so do u pick wlad over liston or not?


how do u thing liston does vs ross purrity 37 year old corrie sanders and lamon brewster? knockout knockout knockout

[SuzieQ49]

Klitschko has a big edge in heart. That is, unless he quits on his stool after 6 rounds with Thompson next weekend.

LOL ya klitschko sure showed alot of heart with his mental panic attacks against brewster and purrity.


What happened? They either got knocked out trying to do so or were tied up. Brewster and Purrity beat him by simply outlasting him and Sanders by a brilliant combinations of counter punch timing, unorthodox southpaw stance, great hand speed and last but not least, a ton of power.

O lord, i was waiting for this. Proping up sanders to something of a freak of nature immortal god. sanders was a lucky journeyman plain and simple. wlad was the first contender he had ever beaten which reflects really badly on wlad. sanders had already been exposed by hasim rahman and nate tubbs.



Liston showed he could fight 12 rounds hard pace, wlad has never shown this outside of a peter fight in which he was floored 3 times by the very crude peter and nearly had another panic attack and quit.

[Muchmoore]

[quote=SuzieQ49]
O lord, i was waiting for this. Proping up sanders to something of a freak of nature immortal god. sanders was a lucky journeyman plain and simple. wlad was the first contender he had ever beaten which reflects really badly on wlad. sanders had already been exposed by hasim rahman and nate tubbs.
quote]

Yeah, Sanders is extremely over rated here. He hit pretty hard and had pretty fast hands for a few rounds but he wasn't the super dangerous warrior that people say he is. Before he stopped Wlad he wasn't regarded as anything.

[SuzieQ49]

Yeah, Sanders is extremely over rated here. He hit pretty hard and had pretty fast hands for a few rounds but he wasn't the super dangerous warrior that people say he is. Before he stopped Wlad he wasn't regarded as anything.


I have to applaud u. you are the first person ( on ESB) that came forward and agreed with me on this. On other sites, sanders gets nowhere near worshipped as he does on ESB. ESB is a big klit fan base, thats why.

[Mendoza]

yes he used to have back in the 1990s but not anymore, he barely uses it(save austin fight).....steward made him go right hand crazy.

so do u pick wlad over liston or not?

how do u thing liston does vs ross purrity 37 year old corrie sanders and lamon brewster? knockout knockout knockout

A few things. Wlad left hook is devastating. I suggest you watch the McCline, Shufford, Barrett, or Mercer fights in the 2000's. Or if you prefer, watch the Peter fight, or the Byrd fights.

Purity was lucky to catch a 22 year old Wlad who had never gone past 8, going 12, with a bone head corner not telling him to quit looking for the knockout in front if his home town fans.

Sanders speed, size, and power could upset just about anyone, and this includes Liston. Liston is not bulletproof. I have seen most of Sanders stuff on the way up, and in some cases, he was even more impressive than Liston was.

Brewster would be the toughest puncher Liston ever meet. Far tougher than Williams, and Brewster hit just as hard as the Big Cat did.

I believe Wlad's would have at least one less loss if Stewart was in his corner for the Purrity, and Sanders fights.

[Mendoza]

Yeah Ross Purrity and Lamon Brewster had lightning fast hands :lol:

Brewster has quick hands. Maybe not lighting, but quick for sure. Speed was not Brewster's problem.

[Muchmoore]

Sanders speed, size, and power could upset just about anyone, and this includes Liston. Liston is not bulletproof. I have seen most of Sanders stuff on the way up, and in some cases, he was even more impressive than Liston was.

Brewster would be the toughest puncher Liston ever meet. Far tougher than Williams, and Brewster hit just as hard as the Big Cat did.



:shock:

[SuzieQ49]

Brewster would be the toughest puncher Liston ever meet. Far tougher than Williams, and Brewster hit just as hard as the Big Cat did.

LOL. Is this a joke? i watched brewster get shutout by ettiene and shufford, and he was lucky to escape a split decision win over a 37 year old C level Kelli Meehan in which he couldnt even floor meehan. meehan was easily flattened by rahman.

Big Cat and is in a different league than brewster, its not even close. I think nino valdez was a better all around puncher than brewster. Valdez shows tremendous power and aggresiveness on film I have.

[SuzieQ49]

Sanders speed, size, and power could upset just about anyone, and this includes Liston.

:patsch


Purity was lucky to catch a 22 year old Wlad who had never gone past 8, going 12, with a bone head corner not telling him to quit looking for the knockout in front if his home town fans.

Wlad was a undefeated olympic champion with 24 pro bouts in front of his hometown fans ahead on points with 1 round to go, there is NO EXUSE.

[Mendoza]

LOL. Is this a joke? i watched brewster get shutout by ettiene and shufford, and he was lucky to escape a split decision win over a 37 year old C level Kelli Meehan in which he couldnt even floor meehan. meehan was easily flattened by rahman.

Big Cat and is in a different league than brewster, its not even close. I think nino valdez was a better all around puncher than brewster. Valdez shows tremendous power and aggresiveness on film I have.

No, it is not a joke. Brewster would be the most durable puncher Liston ever fought. Brewster also beat better fighters than Cleveland Willaims did. Valdez a better puncher than Brewster? I don't think many woudl agree with you.

[ChrisPontius]

I've boxed all my life. While I doubt its even possible to box at any serious level in the Nederlands. So there's the 'anyone who's boxed' crap dealt with.


Reach is relatively more important than height, imo
Liston also had better timing obviously.
Klitshcko has quicker hands.

Hey, we have the Dutch Sonny Liston!


Errrrm.

OK.

Liston is going to be cutting down the ring on him though.


No, he's not. Liston plodded forward cluelessly against both Ali and Machen and never cut off the ring.


Not really.

Liston has it by a country mile.

Liston was a master at reading an opponent.


How so? Liston couldn't land any decent shot on the defensively minded Machen. Wlad was beating Byrd all night long. Perhaps you think Machen is better than Byrd, but the difference is still large: a close fight vs a total shutout.



is this a joke? lennox struggled with frank bruno, ray mercer, holyfield rematch, vitali klitschko, hasim rahman, oliver mcall, all exposed lennox in these fights.

listons top opposition patterson valdez williams folley machen were all clearly cleanly beaten.

liston in his prime never showed a stylistic problem. he dominated his top opposition with ease. you could mention clay, but no one in history had leg speed and movement like clay, certainly not lennox.



The Bruno fight went only 6 rounds until it was about even and then he ended it by knockout. Did Folley and Lyle show they stylistically bothered Ali because they were even on the cards untill the 6th? Did Louis show he bothered Marciano stylistically because he was even until the 6th? They won the fights by knockout, you can't just extrapolate the first 6 rounds to the last 6. Same with the Klitschko fight, which by the way came at 37. Should we add the Martin fight to Liston's stylistic problems for that reason? Klitschko was stopped in 6.


Liston couldn't land a punch on movers like both Machen and Clay, yet he never showed a stylistic problem?


liston was never twice knocked out by one punch near his prime by non world beaters.


That's cool and i know that as a fan you have a kneejerk reaction to "retaliate", but we were discussing heart and what you brought up has nothing to do with it.


:lol: add to that mental toughness, stamina, inside fighting skills, jab and perhaps well talk. thing is wlad doesnt have it. liston is pretty much better in all areas than wlad outside of handspeed.


you call urself a fighter and u think wlad looks better on film than liston?


Wlad stayed off the ropes for 12 rounds against Peter, since Steward trains him his stamina is excellent. And his jab needs improvement? :lol: It's better than Liston's as it is.


so do u pick wlad over liston or not?


No, i would favor Liston. Much depends also on how Wlad continues his career.


LOL ya klitschko sure showed alot of heart with his mental panic attacks against brewster and purrity.


What are you talking about? He was dead tired in both and kept fighting in both until the end. Liston quit under adversity after cheating didn't work. Arguably twice.



And yeah, it's kind of funny that Brewster is not in Williams' league as a fighter, but for some magical reason does have the career better wins. Really gotta hand it to those old timers. :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

What are you talking about? He was dead tired in both and kept fighting in both until the end. Liston quit under adversity after cheating didn't work. Arguably twice.



dead tired in 4 rounds against brewster? so your essentially claiming wladimir klitschko has horrible stamina. After wlad lossed to brewster, every single ring magazine article I had claimed wlad lacked heart and mental toughness. He simply could not toughen it out under pressure vs purrity and brewster.


And yeah, it's kind of funny that Brewster is not in Williams' league as a fighter, but for some magical reason does have the career better wins. Really gotta hand it to those old timers.


Not Really he is another fighter who made a career out of beating wladimir klitschko. perhaps wlad is not as good as we think if all these no names are making careers with knockouts over him. Before you bring up the destruction of golota which i watched live, its worth noting golota was pretty much washed up by this point.


Wlad stayed off the ropes for 12 rounds against Peter, since Steward trains him his stamina is excellent. And his jab needs improvement? It's better than Liston's as it is.


Absolutley not. Liston threw his jab very activley and always efficiently, he didnt just use it offensively but defensivley to keep his opponent off him, and help him find his range. wlad paws with his jab way too much at times.


Steward trains his stamina? Wlad showed some stamina relapses against sam peter. on the 3rd knockdown he went down from exhaustion more than anything else. he damm near had another panic attack like vs brewster and purrity and lost. his career would have been finished.




how much do you hold wladimir klitschko knockout loss to trial horse ross purrity despite being well ahead with 1 round to go, had 24 pro bouts including extensive amatuer career with olympic gold?

[bigjake]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. We're talking about the big ugly bear here. He broke legs for the mob for Christs sake. He dwarfs Klitschko just like he did Patterson.

i'm sure most of these guys never saw liston fight,wlad would be running like a sissy.only time before liston caught up and ko'd him,sonny was a badd man

[Seamus]

Big Cat and is in a different league than brewster

No he is not. They are roughly the same.

Williams was beaten by some decidedly mediocre fighters and went the distance against some chinny opponents. He is routinely over-rated by those who have not examined his record closely or seen him fight on tape.

I would pick Brewster to KO him head to head.

[SuzieQ49]

Williams was beaten by some decidedly mediocre fighters and went the distance against some chinny opponents

Answer me this.......Who defeated a Near prime cleveland williams other than sonny liston and controversial split decision loss to ernie terrell(who he had already knocked out)??? Are liston and terell both future HW champions mediocre? brewster was exposed by mediocre fighters in his prime, it took very good fighters in williams prime to beat him. from 1957-1964 he lost just 3 times twice too an ATG, and once controversial split decision to top contender. post 1964 he was shot literally and figuratly. brewster had some embarrasing losses and performances near his prime.


Lamon Brewster near his prime was shutout by D level clifford Ettiene and Charles Shufford. he also got badly outboxed by liahovich and was lucky to escape with a decision against 37 year old journeyman kelli meehan.



Williams is leagues above brewster as a boxer. Williams was very difficult to outbox, because of his fast hands, good fundamentals, and quick movement, but brewster on the other hand with his average movement, below average defense and fundamentals was pretty easy to outbox, and very average fighters shut brewster out on the cards. i really think theres no comparison. williams never lost wide decisions to journeyman in his prime.

[SuzieQ49]

I would pick Brewster to KO him head to head.


disagree, brewster had trouble with sergei liahovic's fast hands and jab. I think williams would work his jab landing on the outside working his way in so he can unleash his triple left hook. Williams would totally control the boxing match, its clear williams was the better boxer. williams threw bombs at all angles and was an aggresive boxer who moved like a cat. I think once williams gets into range he will unleash his artilery and with his faster hands and better aggresion, williams would land frist and more efficiently. williams would tear brewster apart in a scuffle. I like williams by early Kayo, or by wide unanimous decision if the fight somehow goes to the cards.

[mrbassie]

An argument can be made for Wlad destroying Liston provided you factor in only their respective physical dimensions; Wlad is taller than Liston, faster than Liston, is a massive puncher (i'm going to sidestep 'who hit's harder' here), has a great jab etc. What mn the one hand we have one of the most intimidating heavyweights ever, a man with a good chin and a huge punch who beat many of his opponents as soon as he stared at them and, on the other, a powerful huge heavyweight with a very fragile mindset and a weak chin who panics when stung and has fallen to pieces in all of his losses.
I personally would favour Liston, physically he's got every thing he needs, psychologically imo he's got a sizeable edge. (I'll rebut the inevitable Ali fights argument when they come.)

[SuzieQ49]

powerful huge heavyweight with a very fragile mindset and a weak chin who panics when stung and has fallen to pieces in all of his losses.


Its truelly amazing how many klit worshippers block this part out when discussing him.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Hey, we have the Dutch Sonny Liston!


Alas for you we have the mighty Audley Harrison.


No, he's not. Liston plodded forward cluelessly against both Ali and Machen and never cut off the ring.


Rating Liston mainly on the Ali fights would be a bit like rating Mike Tyson on the Douglas fight.

He didn't bring his whole game that night (his fault of course) and boy did he pick the worong man to take lightly.

Machen was a bit of a poker player in the ring and he obviously gave Liston problems.

If you look at other Liston fights you will see him cut the ring even against relativley static targets like Williams.

How so?

Look at a Liston fight when his oponent moves.

You will see that as soon as the oponent moves into the new position Liston often already has the punch loaded and ready to fire when they are in place.


Liston couldn't land any decent shot on the defensively minded Machen.


Perhaps Machen was a bit too subtle for Liston but Liston did win the decision and without the low blows it would have been a clear win.


Wlad was beating Byrd all night long. Perhaps you think Machen is better than Byrd, but the difference is still large: a close fight vs a total shutout.


You are picking Listons worst winning performance on film and comparing it to Klitschkos best.

You have to look a bit deeper just as you cant summarise this fantasy fight by Klitschkos knockout losses.

[Seamus]

who moved like a cat.

you mean, fell down like a cat.

[janitor]

I believe Wlad's would have at least one less loss if Stewart was in his corner for the Purrity, and Sanders fights.

Stewart believes that Tony Tomphson is the most dangerous potential oponent for Wlad after Peter and Haye.

What are your thoughts on this?

[SuzieQ49]

Machen was a bit of a poker player in the ring and he obviously gave Liston problems.

If you look at other Liston fights you will see him cut the ring even against relativley static targets like Williams


Liston won at least 9 out of 12 rounds according to all 3 judges and most newspapers/experts sitting at ringside. If thats what you call alot of issues, then it appears were nitpickin at its finest. its like saying trevor berbick posed a stylistic problem to larry holmes.


Folley has equal movement to machen, except better jab and better skills and liston blew him away in 3. it took someone with the movement leg speed and size of cassius clay to beat him. no fighter other than clay in history is like that.


Perhaps Machen was a bit too subtle for Liston but Liston did win the decision and without the low blows it would have been a clear win.



even with the all the low blows newspapers and all 3 judges had liston winning by at least 3 points.

[SuzieQ49]

you mean, fell down like a cat.

you been watching way too much ali vs williams. maybe ill pop in holmes vs ali to get a glimpse of what ali was like in his prime.

[SuzieQ49]

Lets be real.........was liston in his mid twenties ever blown away in 2 rounds by a 37 year old unrated fighter? was liston by his 25th professional fight knocked out by a journeyman with 1 round to go in the fight? did liston in his late 20s at his peak ever panic 4 rounds into a fight he was controlling and get knocked out by a unrated fighter at the time?

[ChrisPontius]

[/quote=janitor]
Rating Liston mainly on the Ali fights would be a bit like rating Mike Tyson on the Douglas fight.

He didn't bring his whole game that night (his fault of course) and boy did he pick the worong man to take lightly.

[/quote]

I'm not rating Liston on the Ali and Machen fights only. We were discussing on how Liston cut off the ring, and i brought up these fights because here is where he needed it and didn't do it.



If you look at other Liston fights you will see him cut the ring even against relativley static targets like Williams.


"Cutting the ring off against a static target" is like saying someone catching up with Butterbean's movement. No such thing.





You are picking Listons worst winning performance on film and comparing it to Klitschkos best.

You have to look a bit deeper just as you cant summarise this fantasy fight by Klitschkos knockout losses.

Well, you made the claim Liston was much more accurate, so i compared how they both performed against defensive masters, and Klitschko has a huge edge there.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]
I'm not rating Liston on the Ali and Machen fights only. We were discussing on how Liston cut off the ring, and i brought up these fights because here is where he needed it and didn't do it.


Lets look closer.


"Cutting the ring off against a static target" is like saying someone catching up with Butterbean's movement. No such thing.


Williams was not a static target.

He was no Ali but he moved a fair bit and Liston always got the angle he wanted.

Well, you made the claim Liston was much more accurate, so i compared how they both performed against defensive masters.

In that case you would also have to consider the Zora Folley fight as well.

[Polymath]

No respect for poor Sonny. None. These threads are hard to go into. Ali beat him. Ali is hands down the greateset havy of all time. Sonny was past his best. So that autotically means he would be beaten by these tall guys?
The saddest part is, these gimps are convinced they're involved in some sort of intelligent, groundbreaking 'debate' - they use 'facts' you know? :lol:


Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston were never convicted of steroid use during their professional careers, therefore the chances of them being juicers is about the same. See what Chris Pontius did there? He gave a well-reasoned opinion backed by a FACT!!! See the way he used that fact? Well informed, reasonable poster, he is.

[SuzieQ49]

Well, you made the claim Liston was much more accurate, so i compared how they both performed against defensive masters, and Klitschko has a huge edge there.


You have too look at the whole picture though. you failed to mention zora folley who was arguebably more of a defensive master than machen, and liston blew folley away in 3. He took folley apart worse than wlad took apart bryd.


Also I do not know why were argueing who performed better vs defense. neither wlad or liston are pure defensive oriented fighters. they are more offensive. wlad has shown more susceptibility to certain styles as seen by his 3 losses to mediocre fighters near his prime.

[Seamus]

The saddest part is, these gimps are convinced they're involved in some sort of intelligent, groundbreaking 'debate' - they use 'facts' you know? :lol:


Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston were never convicted of steroid use during their professional careers, therefore the chances of them being juicers is about the same. See what Chris Pontius did there? He gave a well-reasoned opinion backed by a FACT!!! See the way he used that fact? Well informed, reasonable poster, he is.

Fact. Williams was KO'd by Satterfield, a 174 lb'er who KO'd less than half of his opponents. Sonny Jones KD'd him twice. He was taken the distance with marginal, less than mediocre fighters. He couldn't take out Frankie Daniels, though Daniels was KO'd by middleweights and 11 times in his career failed to hear the final bell. Sonny Moore a .500 figher when they met, KO'd 11 times, lasted the 10 with "Big Cat". I could go on and on...

And spare me the "he carried a bullet in his shoulder" crap. So did Monzon, although Monzon was actually good before he was shot.

[ChrisPontius]

Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston were never convicted of steroid use during their professional careers, therefore the chances of them being juicers is about the same. See what Chris Pontius did there? He gave a well-reasoned opinion backed by a FACT!!! See the way he used that fact? Well informed, reasonable poster, he is.

Quote me where i said their chances are the same? I guess i really struck a nerve because you freak out everytime.

[ChrisPontius]

In that case you would also have to consider the Zora Folley fight as well.

Yeah, but Folley had a glass jaw as bad as they come. And unfortunately, the fight is not on film so we can hardly analyse.

[OLD FOGEY]

Stewart believes that Tony Tomphson is the most dangerous potential oponent for Wlad after Peter and Haye.

What are your thoughts on this?

He's trying to build up the gate.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Yeah, but Folley had a glass jaw as bad as they come.

He had never been stopped in 50+ fights coming into the bout with Liston.

I fail to see how he can be described as having a glass jaw as bad as they come.

[SuzieQ49]

Yeah, but Folley had a glass jaw as bad as they come. And unfortunately, the fight is not on film so we can hardly analyse.


Folley has no more of a glass jaw than ingo johansson or wladimir klitschko. Both wlad and folley suffered around the same amount of knockout losses in there twenties. It seems you look on boxrec and see lots of TKO losses and belive he must have a glass jaw. but the summerlin fight was a broken jaw stoppage when he was young, and the young jack johnson fight folley retired with broken ribs in the 5th round in a fight he had won the first 4 rounds and was well in control(you seem to cut vitali alot of slack for quitting vs bryd). So that leaves Alejandro lavorante(who was 6'4 212lb big puncher) and doug jones(whom folley avenged) but these losses happened AFTER liston had already knocked him out. weak jaw, but no more so than other fighters. Make no mistake about it, folley did expose and embarras many punchers of that era with his skills, he beat alot of good fighters. its not like he got knocked out everytime he fought punchers.


from 1956-1960 going into the liston fight, folley was on a 30-1 hot streak with one lone controversial loss to henry cooper which was avenged brutally. folley was in peak shape and had not been officially knocked out in more than half a decade.

[SuzieQ49]

"Sonny Liston's sledge-hammer hands smashed Zora Folley to the canvas twice in the 2nd round and knocked him out at :28 seconds of the 3rd round of their scheduled 12 rounder in the Denver Coliseum. Folley used his boxing skill and swift punching hands to win the 1st round on the cards of all ring officials and the AP. Even after the first knockdown in the 2nd round, Folley rallied brilliantly and jarred Liston with a two-fisted attack. That only served to bring on Liston's sledge-hammer blows that decked Folley again. Folley tumbled face down onto the canvas for the final count in the 3rd. He never moved until seconds after the knockout." -Associated Press

[apollack]

Wrong. Sonny Liston would KO Klit. There is simply no way Vlad handles Liston's awesome two-fisted attack. Hell, Vlad Klitschko doesn't even beat Ross Purritty, let alone Sonny Liston.

[ChrisPontius]

"Sonny Liston's sledge-hammer hands smashed Zora Folley to the canvas twice in the 2nd round and knocked him out at :28 seconds of the 3rd round of their scheduled 12 rounder in the Denver Coliseum. Folley used his boxing skill and swift punching hands to win the 1st round on the cards of all ring officials and the AP. Even after the first knockdown in the 2nd round, Folley rallied brilliantly and jarred Liston with a two-fisted attack. That only served to bring on Liston's sledge-hammer blows that decked Folley again. Folley tumbled face down onto the canvas for the final count in the 3rd. He never moved until seconds after the knockout." -Associated Press

Sounds like an exciting fight. I just can't help but remember how Folley went down from punches that barely even seemed to have Ali's body weight behind it. I know he was old in there (and did quite well actually, i had him even on the scorecards although Ali had a few extra gears that he didn't use), but still.

[SuzieQ49]

Sounds like an exciting fight. I just can't help but remember how Folley went down from punches that barely even seemed to have Ali's body weight behind it.


Folley was far past his prime by 1967 and he still gave ali a dead even fight. I agree about folleys chin being weak, but no more so than say wlad klitschkos. in my opinion cassius clay's lucky he had good management and didnt throw him in the ring with folley in the early 60s, i think folley with his jab skills and slick movement would have beaten young clay. Chris, have you seen film of folley in his prime?


Also ali caught folley with his trademark lead right followed by another lead straight, it was devastating it would blind opponents. i try practicing that in the gym once in a while, god darn i dont know how the hell ali does it so smoothly and rythmically. this trademark double right would have eaten larry holmes alive all night.

[Mendoza]

Wrong. Sonny Liston would KO Klit. There is simply no way Vlad handles Liston's awesome two-fisted attack. Hell, Vlad Klitschko doesn't even beat Ross Purritty, let alone Sonny Liston.

I lay 10-1 that Vlad would have beaten Purrity in the re-match. It was a fluke result, Apollack.


Wald was 22, had never gone past 8, was in front of his home town fans, fighting an illness ( see the low weight ) and up against the perfectly iron headed type of opponent that an in-experienced guy could punch himself out against.

Have you ever seen this fight? I think many people have misconceptions about how it went down. First off, Wlad did not quit as some writers say he did. He fought on. It is Wlad all the way until the final two rounds. If Wlad had a better corner telling him to forget the KO, or more experience going the distance, he wins.


While the Purity loss doesn’t look good, many great fighters lost to tough journeyman on the way up too.