Vitali Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

[mr. magoo]

A chin and punching ability like Liston has never seen......

[Maxmomer]

Why are you doing this?

[standing 8countboxing]

I tend to agree with Vitali beating Liston

[Thread Stealer]

Where's suzieq on this subject?

[Russell]

I honestly don't know if Vitali hits harder than Cleveland Williams.

Ehhh.

[Seamus]

I honestly don't know if Vitali hits harder than Cleveland Williams.

Ehhh.

I'm pretty sure I do.

Vitali was fighting much bigger, stronger fighters and still posted the greatest KO percentage of any champ in history.

Big Cat passed the eye test but was really a b to b- level fighter with a weak chin and even ordinary power. He was knocking over 180 lb'ers or guys who tipped the scales with blubber but without skill. RIP, but over-rated in the truest sense of the term.

[Russell]

I'm pretty sure I do.

Vitali was fighting much bigger, stronger fighters and still posted the greatest KO percentage of any champ in history.

Big Cat passed the eye test but was really a b to b- level fighter with a weak chin and even ordinary power. He was knocking over 180 lb'ers or guys who tipped the scales with blubber but without skill. RIP, but over-rated in the truest sense of the term.

I agree, to some degree.

You have to concede that Vitali benefited greatly from only having 37 fights. And up until the late 90's, who was he knocking out beyond D level fighters?

Taking 5 to get rid of the likes of Dicky Ryan when Valuev did it in one?

[Seamus]

I agree, to some degree.

You have to concede that Vitali benefited greatly from only having 37 fights. And up until the late 90's, who was he knocking out beyond D level fighters?

Taking 5 to get rid of the likes of Dicky Ryan when Valuev did it in one?

wow, that's a real stretch to find a hole in his resume.

i do agree he had a somewhat limited career. however, i recognize most of the names on his resume and have indeed seen many of them fight at a fairly world class level.

[janitor]

Big Cat passed the eye test but was really a b to b- level fighter with a weak chin and even ordinary power. He was knocking over 180 lb'ers or guys who tipped the scales with blubber but without skill. RIP, but over-rated in the truest sense of the term.

Williams is a hard fighter to rate but at the worst asesment he is an order of magnitude better than anybody VK had his hand raised against.

If Williams is a B level fighter then what are the best guys VK beat?

C and D level fighters perhaps?

And dont forgett that KO% and chin tend to be inversley proportional to the quality of your competition.

[Seamus]

Williams is a hard fighter to rate but at the worst asesment he is an order of magnitude better than anybody VK had his hand raised against.

If Williams is a B level fighter then what are the best guys VK beat?

C and D level fighters perhaps?

And dont forgett that KO% and chin tend to be inversley proportional to the quality of your competition.


you are living in a world of fairy tales.

williams best win was, what, stringbean no-punch terrell, later displaced by a loss? or was it a dq against dick richardson?

i forgive my earlier assessment. he was a c-level fighter at best.

[mr. magoo]

Vitali Klitschko may have indeed fought a number of men who were second rate, but calling his comp D level, is just as intentionally misleading as saying that he had the greatest win/KO ratio of all time.

As limited as they were, Ross Purity, Vaugn Bean, Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson were not easy men to KO. In fact, at least 3 of those men were only stopped once in their rather long careers, and those stoppages came against Vitali Klitschko. Ross Purity's record is about as attractive as a teenage girl with acne and braces, but this can also be misleading. In 54 fights, he was knocked out or stopped on only 3 occasions. two of them occured within his first 5 or 6 fights to undefeated prospects, while the other came against Klitschko at a more advanced stage in his career. The rest of his defeats or draws were mostly to undefeated prospects, or fringe types with good records. Purity also KO'd 27 of his 31 victoms, and scored a few impressive wins over men that he was not favored to beat.

Klitschko's wins over Herbie Hide and Corrie Sanders are commonly written off as being average performances against either old or chinny opposition. Hide was still very close to his prime, and possesed great starting speed, power and great conditioning. Vitali iced him in just two rounds. It's a fair criticism that Corrie Sanders was in his late 30's and coming off a layoff, but I would have liked to have asked some of the other top rated fighters in 2004 how they felt about facing him.

Vitali Klitschko was no all time great in my book, but at the same time, his career is all too often oversimplified by his critics and detractors as being comprised of C and D level fighters. Rarely is the whole story ever told....

How would he do against Liston? Obviously I started this thread for the purpose of stirring the pot, and never intentionally expected to be taken seriously. However, it would be rather nieve of anyone to think that Sonny would just walk all over Vitali Klitschko the way he did Floyd Patterson. Size isn't everything, but it can't be ignored either, and frankly I can't think of any truly good big men who Liston ever defeated nor even faced for that matter. Additionally, most of the men Liston ever defeated were either previously floored, Ko'd, Tko'd, or would later be at some point. Klitschko was never dropped in his career, and his stoppage losses to Byrd and Lewis were not conventional TKo's, nor did they result from being dominated in the purest sense of the term ( for those who saw those fights. ) As a matter of fact, No one ever left the ring with Vitali, ahead on the cards.

Liston may very well have eeked out a decision, or a late stoppage on cuts, but its not a given. This is one fight where size, strength, conditioning and intimidation would not be in Liston's favor. He would also have to be prepared for the fact that he may have to take some of the hardest shots of his career, and showing heart may be a necessary means of winning the fight.

[janitor]

you are living in a world of fairy tales.

williams best win was, what, stringbean no-punch terrell, later displaced by a loss? or was it a dq against dick richardson?

i forgive my earlier assessment. he was a c-level fighter at best.

That stringbean no-punch Terrell is a somewhat better scalp than anybody Vitally Klitschko ever beat as far as I can see.

Am I missing anything here?

[janitor]

Vitali Klitschko may have indeed fought a number of men who were second rate, but calling his comp D level, is just as intentionally misleading as saying that he had the greatest win/KO ratio of all time.


I certainly dont think that VKs best oponents were D level any more than I think that Williams was B level as some have suggested.

[Seamus]

Lord almighty...

And I always wondered at the success of Harry Potter books and Dungeons & Dragons.

Now I am truly convinced the world is full of rubes and halfwits.

[janitor]

Lord almighty...

And I always wondered at the success of Harry Potter books and Dungeons & Dragons.

Now I am truly convinced the world is full of rubes and halfwits.

Please explain to this rube/halfwit exactly which fighter that Vitally Klitschko beat was better than Williams or Terrel for that matter.

[Seamus]

Please explain to this rube/halfwit exactly which fighter that Vitally Klitschko beat was better than Williams or Terrel for that matter.

I would pick Sanders, Johnson, Donald, Williams, Purrity and Hide over both. I really think very little of Williams, as most of the awe surrounding him has to do with his height and reach rather than his accomplishments.

And no, I don't really think the lot of you are rubes or halfwits, I just like the way the phrase came to my mind.

[janitor]

[quote=Seamus]I would pick Sanders, Johnson, Donald, Williams, Purrity and Hide over both.

Of course I cant say how these fantasy fights would turn out.

What I can say is that these guys were all either far removed from their peaks, or achieved less than Williams and Terrel on paper anyway. That is even allowing for the fact that Williams is often criticised today for the lack of depth to his resume.

Sanders would be a live threat due to his punching ability but the chances are they would both take him.

Johnson and Donald would in all probability fall short.

Williams would fall far far short.


I really think very little of Williams, as most of the awe surrounding him has to do with his height and reach rather than his accomplishments.


I think this is true in spades of Vitally Klitschko.

Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head here.

Perhaps VK is a latter day George Godfrey or Cleavland Williams. Feared in his own time but without the paper resume to back it up hence an enigma 50 years from now.

Perhaps the only reason we see him diferently is because we have watched his career unfold.

Of course what goes around comes around. 50 years from now I might have to convince some 14 year old exactly why we thought so highly of VK at the turn of the century and try to presuade him to come back for a closer look.

And no, I don't really think the lot of you are rubes or halfwits, I just like the way the phrase came to my mind.

I can make no promise not to be a rube or halfwit of course.

[Boxed Ears]

ATG comeback, Hayeters(sic).


Long live Vitalaevus! Nox imz burznscht!

[Foreman Hook]

NO CONTEST - NC

Glass hearted spineless bullies Vitali And Liston both QUIT on their stools with "bad shoulders!".

"I cannnnnt go on, it hurts tooooooo much!"

[janitor]

NO CONTEST - NC

Glass hearted spineless bullies Vitali And Liston both QUIT on their stools with "bad shoulders!".

"I cannnnnt go on, it hurts tooooooo much!"

What happens if they both quit on their stools between the same two rounds?

[Foreman Hook]

What happens if they both quit on their stools between the same two rounds?

Double RTD??? :huh

[Stevie G]

Vitali and his brother are,without doubt,the best heavies since Lennox Lewis. However I can't see them beating a prime Liston.

[Azzer85]

The only time Vitali fought anyone similar to Liston was.....Lennox Lewis

[janitor]

One side effect of Wladamir's recent fight is that Admek is now ranked #2, behind only the brothers themselves.

This opens the way for Vitally to grab a significant scalp.

[bodhi]

Vitali has a good chance here but I´d make Sonny the fav, better jab, more single shot power, better defence, more variaty and better inside game. Vitali is bigger and has a higher workrate. Both have good chins, so I don´t see a stoppage there. The difference in opposition isn´t that big either, both lost to the best fighters they faced. edge for Liston though since he beat Patterson. Sonny would be able to win the boxing game and the fighting game but he´d have a hard time with both. A close points win for Liston is the most likely, I can see a similar result for Vitali though. A three fight win would probably end 2-1 for Sonny though. Very even fight, good match up.

[Danny]

Are people suggesting Vitali is more powerful, not stronger, Powerful, than Liston?

You guys really reckon the slow, ponderous, Vitali, as he was against someone such as Kevin Johnson, could or would beat Liston?...

[Hookie]

I honestly don't know if Vitali hits harder than Cleveland Williams.

Ehhh.

Williams is very overrated.

Vitali is very durable and has never been down in 44 pro fights. He has faced big punchers like Herbie Hide, Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Sam Peter, Cristobal Arreola, and Shannon Briggs. Vitali is very strong, has good power in both hands, has a dominating jab that is accurate and powerful. Almost 6'8", 80" reach, 250 solid Lbs. and he knows how to use his size advantages. Give this man the credit he deserves.

Vitali lost twice. Vs. Chris Byrd in 2000 he outboxed Byrd for 9 rounds but pulled out of the fight with an injured shoulder. If he could do it over I'm sure he would continue the fight. He made a mistake, Williams made plenty. He also lost to Lennox lewis. vs. Lewis he was ahead after 6 rounds but had been cut badly. The fight was stopped but Vitali wanted to continue... he had learned from his earlier mistake. Vitali has clearly defeated every other fighter he faced. Lewis even decided to retire rather than fight Vitali again.

42-2 (39) overall and 12-2 (10) in HW World Title fights. He's 9-1 (7) in WBC World Title fights and 3-1 (3) in WBO World Title fights.

What did Cleveland Williams do again?


...I'll tell you

Williams beat mostly bums with a few exceptions. 78-13-1 (58 KOs) overall and was stopped 8 times. He went 0-1 in HW World Title fights. 6'3", 80" reach, and 210 solid Lbs. He did stop Ernie Terrell in 7 rounds, he also lost a split-decision to Terrell. He drew with Eddie Machen. He was stopped in the early rounds by Bob Satterfield (a LHW) LKOby3, Sonny Liston x2 LKOby3 and LKOby2, and Ali LKOby3.

Even if Williams punched harder than Vitali... what is your point? If you can't land those bombs on the right people what does it matter? He stopped one world-class fighter in Ernie Terrell. He was destroyed by the best fighters he faced.

[Hookie]

As for V. Klitschko vs. Liston?

I think it would a good fight. Yes, Liston had an 84" reach but he was about 7" shorter. Liston was big in his era but would be outweighed by about 35 Lbs. in this fight. Both men are solid and powerful. Vitali has never been down despite still fighting at age 40 (will be this month). Liston was down several times and stopped 3 times (counted out twice and a shoulder injury once in a fight he was losing on points). Vitali was stopped twice (injured shoulder and cuts, he was ahead on points in both).

Durability? I'll go with Vitali. Sure, he never faced a guy like Liston but Liston sure as hell never faced a guy like Vitali... a 6'8" 250 Lb. durable and athletic monster.

I'll take Vitali by TKO. I see Liston quitting in the late rounds with a beat up face.

[Hookie]

What about Lewis vs. Liston?

[MRBILL]

A chin and punching ability like Liston has never seen......

V. Klit KO's Liston after a gruelling affair inside 10 rds.......:deal:bbb:admin

MR.BILL:hat

[PetethePrince]

I think Vitali would win. Liston is a little too ploddy, and more mentally frustrated than Vitali.

[PowerPuncher]

I'm pretty sure I do.

Vitali was fighting much bigger, stronger fighters and still posted the greatest KO percentage of any champ in history.

Big Cat passed the eye test but was really a b to b- level fighter with a weak chin and even ordinary power. He was knocking over 180 lb'ers or guys who tipped the scales with blubber but without skill. RIP, but over-rated in the truest sense of the term.

If you think Vitali is a big puncher you don't really no much about the sport. He doesn't sit on his punches, turn them over properly or get body torque in them. He's an arm puncher, for an arm puncher he hits hard, but arm punchers are never going to be powerful. His stoppages are accumulation and he usually isn't the quickest to stop any of his opponents

Vitali has allot of talents but he doesn't have a big punch

[PowerPuncher]

What happens if they both quit on their stools between the same two rounds?

:lol: I was going to post that, double retirement

[Mendoza]

I'm pretty sure I do.

Vitali was fighting much bigger, stronger fighters and still posted the greatest KO percentage of any champ in history.

Big Cat passed the eye test but was really a b to b- level fighter with a weak chin and even ordinary power. He was knocking over 180 lb'ers or guys who tipped the scales with blubber but without skill. RIP, but over-rated in the truest sense of the term.

The Big Cat did pretty well very early in one of the matches with Liston. I thought he took round one and cut Liston early before Liston landed his hook. Not sure how Liston would do here. Sonny's mental fortitude was never that good ( quit, fouled, ect.. ), and he really wasn't fast handed.

Tough match up for both guys. I think Liston hits harder, but Vitali has the better defense, and takes the better punch. Vitali's height might make it tough on Liston. I like Vitali here because I think Liston intimidation would not work here, and that was a key part of his game.

[Mendoza]

If you think Vitali is a big puncher you don't really no much about the sport. He doesn't sit on his punches, turn them over properly or get body torque in them. He's an arm puncher, for an arm puncher he hits hard, but arm punchers are never going to be powerful. His stoppages are accumulation and he usually isn't the quickest to stop any of his opponents

Vitali has allot of talents but he doesn't have a big punch

Well, he's not in there with sub 200 pound guys and 6 or 8 oz gloves either. Injury has taken a bit off Vitali's punch, but he still has it. He really decked Briggs ( I think it was round 5 ). Briggs said Vitali hits harder than Foreman. Other fighters who fought him and Tyson said Vitali hits harder. Example: Francis. Danny Williams who had a rough round one with Tyson said Tyson hits a little harder, but Vitali is more consistent with his power.

After Vitali retires I believe he will reveal hand and shoulder issues, which made him switch up his style a bit to what you refer to as arm punching.

[Valane]

Well, he's not in there with sub 200 pound guys and 6 or 8 oz gloves either. Injury has taken a bit off Vitali's punch, but he still has it. He really decked Briggs ( I think it was round 5 ). Briggs said Vitali hits harder than Foreman. Other fighters who fought him and Tyson said Vitali hits harder. Example: Francis. Danny Williams who had a rough round one with Tyson said Tyson hits a little harder, but Vitali is more consistent with his power.

After Vitali retires I believe he will reveal hand and shoulder issues, which made him switch up his style a bit to what you refer to as arm punching.



Are you really trying to argue that Vitali hits harder than Tyson or Foreman? He has zero mechanics, he throws arm punches, it's clear as day. 90% of his stoppages are accumulation. When you are hitting guys flush in the face with right hands and they are still standing then there is something lacking in regards to power generation. How many flush punches are we talking about against Sanders, Briggs, Peter? Average puncher.

[JohnThomas1]

Example: Francis. Danny Williams who had a rough round one with Tyson said Tyson hits a little harder, but Vitali is more consistent with his power.


Lets all judge a burnt out Tyson 16 years past his peak as if it's meaningful so we can prop Vitali up :lol:

Tyson was flat out throwing decent punches let alone stringing together consistent power. For crying out loud.

[PowerPuncher]

Well, he's not in there with sub 200 pound guys and 6 or 8 oz gloves either. Injury has taken a bit off Vitali's punch, but he still has it. He really decked Briggs ( I think it was round 5 ). Briggs said Vitali hits harder than Foreman. Other fighters who fought him and Tyson said Vitali hits harder. Example: Francis. Danny Williams who had a rough round one with Tyson said Tyson hits a little harder, but Vitali is more consistent with his power.

After Vitali retires I believe he will reveal hand and shoulder issues, which made him switch up his style a bit to what you refer to as arm punching.

He was always an arm puncher throughout his career and it comes from his kickboxing style, he sits on his shot but he's never turned them over properly or got body torque into like say Wlad can do. Briggs is talking BS, if Vitali could punch he'd do what Lewis did to him

[ticar]

i favor liston to beat all the super hw's,including lewis,klits and bowe.
liston would fuck up vitali from outside and inside,body and head.vitali also cuts easily,liston would fuck his face up with his ramrod jab

[bigjake]

V. Klit KO's Liston after a gruelling affair inside 10 rds.......:deal:bbb:admin

MR.BILL:hat

hes going to ko liston witharm punches...lol,what dupe are you on son

[brb]

If you think Vitali is a big puncher you don't really no much about the sport. He doesn't sit on his punches, turn them over properly or get body torque in them. He's an arm puncher, for an arm puncher he hits hard, but arm punchers are never going to be powerful. His stoppages are accumulation and he usually isn't the quickest to stop any of his opponents

Vitali has allot of talents but he doesn't have a big punch

Of course he does.

Stop looking at a late thirty year old fighter with knee problems.

In his prime he used his legs much more when committing.

He also changes the speed, angles, and follow thru of his punches. Sometimes he sits on them and sometimes he just tags his opposition.

The guy (at 39 with knee problems) just got a TKO1 over a guy that was a very decorated amateur.

What else do you want?

[Foreman Hook]

Slobby Solis was a fat tubby lardass tub of whale blubber as a pro. You see, Slobby Solis had a fragile glass knee cos of his cheeseburger addiction putting tons of stress on his knee joints. VitKlit tapped Slobby Solis with a arm-punch, And his glass knee shattered under teh weight of his taco-filled tummy.

[Azzer85]

Liston Knocks the overrated Vitali out

[Mendoza]

Williams is a hard fighter to rate but at the worst asesment he is an order of magnitude better than anybody VK had his hand raised against.

If Williams is a B level fighter then what are the best guys VK beat?

C and D level fighters perhaps?

And dont forgett that KO% and chin tend to be inversley proportional to the quality of your competition.

I am a Big Cat fan. You had to love his heart, but how many top ten contenders did he really beat Janitor? Far less than Vitali Klitschko.

[Mendoza]

He was always an arm puncher throughout his career and it comes from his kickboxing style, he sits on his shot but he's never turned them over properly or got body torque into like say Wlad can do. Briggs is talking BS, if Vitali could punch he'd do what Lewis did to him

I don't think Briggs is talking crap. Vitlai broke bones, and punished him. The fight should have been halted in the later rounds.

A Briggs frame was much larger post Lewis. His chin is very good these days. Its true as he has not been down in 13 years. Clean shots from Ibragimov, Mercer and Liachovich didn't phase him one bit, and Vitali unloaded on him.

[red cobra]

Vitali would have surely stopped Cleveland Williams IMO....don't know about Liston . The Liston of 1964-65 was one thing..the Liston of '58-'61 was quite another. I think he became champ when he was past his peak..(and i love Floyd Patterson btw)...hell Ali wouldn't have stopped the Liston of '58 thru '61...beaten him perhaps but not stopped him....and Vitali defintely not as well.