What if Ali had no existed. How would the HW division have shaped up?

[Sardu]

There was an intriguing article many years ago in one the popular boxing publications. This is how the author said the heavyweight division would have played out without the colosus that was the great Muhammad Ali.

1962 - Liston kayos Patterson and holds the title for several years.

1968 - Liston is upset by Jerry Quarry who outboxes and counterpunches him for a 15-round decision

1970 - Joe Frazier stops JQ and annexes the crown.

1973 - Foreman beats Frazier

1978 - Like Liston before, Foreman holds crown for several years and dispartches many challengers before losing to Larry Holmes.

1978 - Holmes beats Foreman.

[janitor]

There was an intriguing article many years ago in one the popular boxing publications. This is how the author said the heavyweight division would have played out without the colosus that was the great Muhammad Ali.

1962 - Liston kayos Patterson and holds the title for several years.

1968 - Liston is upset by Jerry Quarry who outboxes and counterpunches him for a 15-round decision

1970 - Joe Frazier stops JQ and annexes the crown.

1973 - Foreman beats Frazier

1978 - Like Liston before, Foreman holds crown for several years and dispartches many challengers before losing to Larry Holmes.

1978 - Holmes beats Foreman.

A couple of observations.

I dont think Liston would have held the crown untill 1968. He had started to neglect his training and drink before bouts. He was an upset waiting to happen.

I dont think that Foreman would have been a long reigning champion either. He had never been past 10 rounds and would have run into the wrong guy sooner or later.

while this is not to say that Liston and Foreman would not have been dominant champions of sorts they would not have been ones with longevity.

I would expect a few other fighters like Ellis, Lyle or Young to hold the title for short tenures at some point.

[Hatesrats]

Foreman would have ruled the 70's

[groove]

agreed. foreman wasn't mentally right after his loss to Ali plus he was paranoid about punching himself out from then on. i still think pre-ali foreman would be knocking them all out early.

[mr. magoo]

Foreman rules forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[janitor]

Foreman would have ruled the 70's

I dont think he would have.

Fighters like Foreman do not enjoy long title reigns.

He might have been the biggest name of the 70s but I dont see him holding the title untill Larry Holmes comes allong.

[mr. magoo]

I dont think he would have.

Fighters like Foreman do not enjoy long title reigns.

He might have been the biggest name of the 70s but I dont see him holding the title untill Larry Holmes comes allong.

Yeah but think about this Janitor. That means he probably would have reigned from about 1973 to maybe 77 or 78. That's 4-5 years. Rarely do champions have longer reigns than that. In the mean time, he could have very conceivable cleaned house on nearly everybody.

[janitor]

Yeah but think about this Janitor. That means he probably would have reigned from about 1973 to maybe 77 or 78. That's 4-5 years. Rarely do champions have longer reigns than that. In the mean time, he could have very conceivable cleaned house on nearly everybody.

It is certainly a possible scenario but one that you have to be verry cautious about for the following reasons:

1. Heavyweight champions with long title reigns have always been ones who either consistently retained their focus after winnig the title, or went for long periods without defending it.

Outstanding peak ability dose not guarantee longevity and once a champion starts neglecting his training he is headed for a beating.

3. Nearly all heavyweight champions with long title reigns have been of the boxer or boxer puncher type.

So George Foreman having a long title reign depends upon his navigating these obstacles.

He must remain focused on his training, perhaps moreso than a boxer or boxer puncher type. If he pulls a Joe Frazier he is gone.

He must either overcome some uncomfortable stylistic matchups or pick his challenger verry carefully.

[mr. magoo]

It is certainly a possible scenario but one that you have to be verry cautious about for the following reasons:

1. Heavyweight champions with long title reigns have always been ones who either consistently retained their focus after winnig the title, or went for long periods without defending it.

Outstanding peak ability dose not guarantee longevity and once a champion starts neglecting his training he is headed for a beating.

3. Nearly all heavyweight champions with long title reigns have been of the boxer or boxer puncher type.

So George Foreman having a long title reign depends upon his navigating these obstacles.

He must remain focused on his training, perhaps moreso than a boxer or boxer puncher type. If he pulls a Joe Frazier he is gone.

He must either overcome some uncomfortable stylistic matchups or pick his challenger verry carefully.

All of the above is very true and I agree completely, however there are a few things to consider.

1. It is widely speculated that Foreman's loss to Ali, contributed largely to his decline. Some say he lost confidence, focus, interest, etc. In so doing, his intensity diminshed leading to further flat performances and even a loss later.

2. Outside of Holmes and Young, neither of whom emerged until the later 70's, I can think of no one who would have beaten him between 74-77. It is inevitable that he would have given Frazier a second shot at the title. He likely would have been forced into a mandatory with Quarry, but frankly, i think Goerge would have killed him. He already showed he could beat Lyle, only without the loss to Ali looming over him, he might even done it with less dificulty. Shavers was no match for him. We saw what he did to Norton.

[janitor]

[quote=mr. magoo]All of the above is very true and I agree completely, however there are a few things to consider.

1. It is widely speculated that Foreman's loss to Ali, contributed largely to his decline. Some say he lost confidence, focus, interest, etc. In so doing, his intensity diminshed leading to further flat performances and even a loss later.


I think there is some truth in that.

2. Outside of Holmes and Young, neither of whom emerged until the later 70's, I can think of no one who would have beaten him between 74-77. It is inevitable that he would have given Frazier a second shot at the title. He likely would have been forced into a mandatory with Quarry, but frankly, i think Goerge would have killed him. He already showed he could beat Lyle, only without the loss to Ali looming over him, he might even done it with less dificulty. Shavers was no match for him. We saw what he did to Norton.

Champions who do not retain focus tend to bring themselves down to the level of the competition eventualy, however low that level is.

If Max Baer had lost his title to Joe Louis instead of Jimmy Braddock I could imagine some people saying that he would have ruled the rest of the 30s and early 40s if Louis had not been born. I dont think Braddock would have been seen as a serious threat to him.

If Mike Tyson had lost the title to Evander Holyfield instead of James Douglas I doubt that anybody would give James Douglas a chance against him unfocused or not.

So I think it is important to diferentiate between a peak Foreman and a Foreman who has become complacent as champion and lost the eye of the tiger.

Of course we dont know to what extent he would have done this. He might theoreticaly have maintained an undiminished will to train or he might have become fat and complacent after a couple of defences.

[Loewe]

Why do people bring up just because Ali got lucky and beat Foreman then that must ment Larry Holmes would of? Ali laid against the ropes and prayed that Foreman would punch himself out. There is no rule that states Foreman would have to swing wild with every punch trying to knock out Ali. Holmes was never as tough as Ali to began with. A past his prime Ali took punch after punch from Shavers and did not go down but the moment Shavers hit Holmes he knocked him stupid.

Foreman's ego grew because he knocked out people Ali struggled to beat but asked if Ali would of never existed so that would be a mute point. Nobody in the 70's could beat him period. It is logical to think that Foreman would of won more than 50 fights with out a loss. Norton,Frazier, Chuvalo and Lyle did lose to Foreman. If Quarry couldn't handle Fraziers, or Nortons power then there is no way in hell he could handle Foreman. Who would be left? Bonavena, Shavers, and Young? A prime focused Foreman would of handled them all.

Why is it that in every boxing forum you come too you see people say Foreman had no stamina and if you got past 5 rounds you would beat him? How simple minded....Foreman went 10 rounds 2 times with the underrated Peralta did he not? Is it Foremans fault he knocked out most of his opponents so early? Why base Foremans whole career off 2 fights? Foreman tired himself out by throwing wild punches non stop against Ali. Combine that with the fact Ali continue to grab and hold the whole fight which shold of got him a DQ. Young beat Foreman because of Foremans ego. Gil Clancy told him to come to Puerto Rico 3 weeks before the fight to get used to the heat but Foreman as usual did what he wanted and came 3 days before the fight. He wasn't prepared for the heat and lost to a slick boxer that he should of destroyed.

I never hear people saying since Joe Louis a 205 pound small heavyweight was almost knocked out by Billy Conn a super middleweight who only had 11 knock outs in 66 wins could hurt him then every super middleweight who punched harder than Conn would knock him out. Foreman is the only fighter i can think of who gets critized for his off performances.

Foreman would rule the 70's 80's 90 or 2000's if he was in shape and motivated.

:hi: Big George

[SteveO]

I take issue primarily with Quarry beating Liston.

I'm a Quarry fan, but I'm struggling with it.

[Longhhorn71]

I take issue primarily with Quarry beating Liston.

I'm a Quarry fan, but I'm struggling with it.

The boxing, smart Quarry maybe.

The Quarry who tried to beat the crap out of Frazier, I don't think so.

[turpinr]

Foreman rules forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i concur

[Bokaj]

There was an intriguing article many years ago in one the popular boxing publications. This is how the author said the heavyweight division would have played out without the colosus that was the great Muhammad Ali.

1962 - Liston kayos Patterson and holds the title for several years.

1968 - Liston is upset by Jerry Quarry who outboxes and counterpunches him for a 15-round decision

1970 - Joe Frazier stops JQ and annexes the crown.

1973 - Foreman beats Frazier

1978 - Like Liston before, Foreman holds crown for several years and dispartches many challengers before losing to Larry Holmes.

1978 - Holmes beats Foreman.

I agree with this in general. A Quarry with his head screwed on right looks a good beat to beat an aging and unmotivated Liston (if someone doesn't get there before, but who would that be? Folley? Perhaps. Cooper, Mildenberger, Chuvalo, Terrell? Not likely).

I think that Young might have beaten Foreman in 76 or 77, though.

[Mendoza]

Odd observation. The Alphabets came about because Ali was exiled, with Terell holding the distinction of being the first WBA alphabet non-lineal heavyweight champion. If Ali were not around, perhaps there would be no WBA or WBC, only one champion.

Ali is too iconic. Without him we have no super fight in 1971 with Fraizer, or the rumble in the jungle with Foreman.

[Bokaj]

Odd observation. The Alphabets came about because Ali was exiled, with Terell holding the distinction of being the first WBA alphabet non-lineal heavyweight champion. If Ali were not around, perhaps there would be no WBA or WBC, only one champion.

Ali is too iconic. Without him we have no super fight in 1971 with Fraizer, or the rumble in the jungle with Foreman.

Who was that a response to?

[flamengo]

Why is the suggestion of Holmes taking the control of the H/W division so late... '78?

I believe he may have taken control in the later stage of '76...

[Bokaj]

Why is the suggestion of Holmes taking the control of the H/W division so late... '78?

I believe he may have taken control in the later stage of '76...

Well, he didn't start meeting world class opposition before '77 really, did he? It seems to me that it was his win over Shavers that really put him on the map, and that was in '77.

Also, I think that Foreman would be matched quite carefully, as he allways was. He would take on the mandatory defenders, but avoid guys like Holmes (and possibly Young) as far as possible. And Holmes wasn't mandatory before '78.

I think Foreman's reign might have looked pretty much like this if Ali wasn't around:

October 1974 - takes on Quarry (the mandatory) andd beats him.

1975 - Lyle and a rematch with Frazier

1976 - An easier year. Perhaps contends himself with Bugner, who might actually take him the ddistance in a dull fight.

1977 - Shavers, and after that possibly Young.

1978 (in case he doesn't lose to Young) Holmes. In all likelyhood a bridge to far.

In case he loses to Young in '77, he mounts a comeback and gets the chance at Holmes in '79 or '80. Holmes wins.

[GPater11093]

i agree with janitor here

becaus ethink about it foreman is the best out their and is KOing everyone with ease he startes getting complacent stops training and bang an upset

[Bokaj]

i agree with janitor here

becaus ethink about it foreman is the best out their and is KOing everyone with ease he startes getting complacent stops training and bang an upset

There is no real evidence that Foreman was more complacent than anyone else, and furthermore he was always very carefully managed. I think that that combined gives him a reign to 1977-1978.

[GPater11093]

im not talking about foreman in particular i mean that would happen to any champion

[Bokaj]

im not talking about foreman in particular i mean that would happen to any champion

Sure. But in Foreman's case I'll give him to '77 or '78 on account that he would be selective but still able to beat the ones he had to take on uptil then. Hell, Patterson was champ for 5 years all in all, but it was hardly a glorius reign.

Thing is, Foreman might well have been a lesser name today if it wasn't for Ali. If he had stayed champion until meeting Young and then trying unsuccesfully to reclaim it from Holmes, retired and never attempting a comeback, he would be seen as a good, but limited, champion. Well, many see him as that today to be honest, but there wouldn't be the same aura around him.

[prime]

If Ali hadn't existed, neither would Holmes, his pupil.

Foreman would have reigned supreme in the '70s and broken Rocky's record.

As I have said before, he still finds Jesus after either a loss or close-call win and becomes lovable anyhow, his wide grin filling the Earth as one of the very greatest champions of all times.