PRIDE's Kyrptonite! UFC's GnP with elbows............

[RUSKULL]

Apparently all of us who thought the UFC fighters didn't stand a chance against the PRIDE fighters weren't concidering the fact that elbow strikes from the mount aren't allowed in PRIDE but they are in UFC's cage.

This was my face when Gonzaga took Crocop to the mat and started to rain elbows down - :yikes I was like, "Holy shit, he doesn't know how to defend against those fast, short, heavy strikes and I believe that was the beginning of the end right there during their match.

Will Fedor suffer this same fate? Chances are no, but hopefully Fedor, Crocop, Nogiera, Rampage, Barnett and any other PRIDE turned UFC fighter will work on this defense.

[Dostoevsky]

well, lets not forget that former PRIDE fighters are the current light-heavyweight and middleweight champions.

Crocop deserved to lose against Gonzaga because he didn't learn how to defend against elbows and didn't even bother to train in a cage, he totally underestimated his opponent and didn't take into account the huge difference between fighting in a cage and the ring.

So far he is the only good 'PRIDE fighter' who has lost.
fedors biggest chance of losing is by cut via elbow.

[cross_trainer]

well, lets not forget that former PRIDE fighters are the current light-heavyweight and middleweight champions.

Crocop deserved to lose against Gonzaga because he didn't learn how to defend against elbows and didn't even bother to train in a cage, he totally underestimated his opponent and didn't take into account the huge difference between fighting in a cage and the ring.

So far he is the only good 'PRIDE fighter' who has lost.
fedors biggest chance of losing is by cut via elbow.

True, he is the only one who lost. But then again, the total distribution so far--Pride managed to grab two belts, and is defeated in a third attempt with Herring and Crocop beaten up--is a pretty even situation...and unexpected, given the supposedly poor state of the UFC heavyweight division.

[Dostoevsky]

UFC's heavyweight, light-heavyweight and middleweight divisions have always been piss poor until recently.

Before 2007 who was in the UFC heavyweight ranks? Sylvia,Arlovski,Mir.....???hmmmm Wes Sims? Cabbage? Ian Freeman? :think :lol: When Mir got busted up in his Bike accident there was only Sylvia and Arlovski, Sylvia is a complete bum and got a lucky punch against Andrei, then scaring Andrei into a shell. From then on it was just Sylvia and Arlovski.
Compare that with PRIDEs: Fedor,Big Nog,CC,Kharitonov,A.Emelianenko,Barnett,Werdum. Then a few B fighters like, Zentsov,Randleman,Coleman,Hunt


Before 2007 in the lhw ranks who was there? Randy, Liddell and Ortiz? Even then, Ortiz had/was/is falling off badly.
Compare that with PRIDEs: lil Nog,Overeem,Wanderlei,Arona,Rampage,Shogun,Nakamura,Sokoudjou.

Before 2007 in the middleweight ranks who was there in the UFC? Silva,Franklin,Tanner,Okami?
Compare that with PRIDEs: Ninja,Filho,Henderson, Bustamante,Kang, Misaki, Gono.

Infact lets go to the lightweights!
UFC had: Sherk,BJ Penn(sometimes) Pulver......:think.... Florian? Edwards?
Compare that to PRIDEs: Gomi,Sakurai, Aurelio,Azeredo,Hansen,Ishida

Ok, the lightweights don't compare to the other weights but i still think PRIDE had the better roster.
Apart from welterweight, PRIDE always had a better roster and more superior fighters. Especially heavyweight and light heavyweight.
the UFC was running so low on fighters that it needed to have a old worn down shot to shit Shamrock vs Ortiz trilogy, I remember when the UFC biggest stunt back in '03 was the big comeback of 38 year old Tank Abbott :rofl

UFC should thank god that the Yakuza allegations about PRIDE were uncovered because the UFC was becoming very desperate, literally running out of fighters.
Why else do you think Chuck had so many rematches in his title reign?

Herring was good and if he had come to the UFC in' 04 or even '05 he would have been champ or at least number 2. Now hes old and fat and has no interest but the pay check, CC was arrogant when he fought againt GG and thats why he didn't do well against him. It was the same reason CC lost to randleman, because he didn't respect his opponent.

That being said, I do think Gonzaga is the real deal, he seems like a monster.

[cross_trainer]

UFC's heavyweight, light-heavyweight and middleweight divisions have always been piss poor until recently.

Before 2007 who was in the UFC heavyweight ranks? Sylvia,Arlovski,Mir.....???hmmmm Wes Sims? Cabbage? Ian Freeman? :think :lol: When Mir got busted up in his Bike accident there was only Sylvia and Arlovski, Sylvia is a complete bum and got a lucky punch against Andrei, then scaring Andrei into a shell. From then on it was just Sylvia and Arlovski.
Compare that with PRIDEs: Fedor,Big Nog,CC,Kharitonov,A.Emelianenko,Barnett,Werdum. Then a few B fighters like, Zentsov,Randleman,Coleman,Hunt


Before 2007 in the lhw ranks who was there? Randy, Liddell and Ortiz? Even then, Ortiz had/was/is falling off badly.
Compare that with PRIDEs: lil Nog,Overeem,Wanderlei,Arona,Rampage,Shogun,Nakamura,Sokoudjou.

Before 2007 in the middleweight ranks who was there in the UFC? Silva,Franklin,Tanner,Okami?
Compare that with PRIDEs: Ninja,Filho,Henderson, Bustamante,Kang, Misaki, Gono.

Infact lets go to the lightweights!
UFC had: Sherk,BJ Penn(sometimes) Pulver......:think.... Florian? Edwards?
Compare that to PRIDEs: Gomi,Sakurai, Aurelio,Azeredo,Hansen,Ishida

Ok, the lightweights don't compare to the other weights but i still think PRIDE had the better roster.
Apart from welterweight, PRIDE always had a better roster and more superior fighters. Especially heavyweight and light heavyweight.
the UFC was running so low on fighters that it needed to have a old worn down shot to shit Shamrock vs Ortiz trilogy, I remember when the UFC biggest stunt back in '03 was the big comeback of 38 year old Tank Abbott :rofl

UFC should thank god that the Yakuza allegations about PRIDE were uncovered because the UFC was becoming very desperate, literally running out of fighters.
Why else do you think Chuck had so many rematches in his title reign?

Herring was good and if he had come to the UFC in' 04 or even '05 he would have been champ or at least number 2. Now hes old and fat and has no interest but the pay check, CC was arrogant when he fought againt GG and thats why he didn't do well against him. It was the same reason CC lost to randleman, because he didn't respect his opponent.

That being said, I do think Gonzaga is the real deal, he seems like a monster.

I suppose the key point I'd make is not that the UFC's heavyweight division was great, but that it was slightly worse than its other divisions (many of which were also bad).

I do hope that Gonzaga can build himself up into a legitimate challenge for Fedor when the two clash in a unification--it would be long remembered among the most significant events in MMA history.

[Dostoevsky]

Agreed, GG is the current BJJ heavyweight champion of the world. I think he is also an ADCC champion.

And of course the guy has knockout power in both his feet and his hands. He of course has excellent submissions, due to his BJJ backround, he's also fast and a big man. 6'2 240lbs.
The only question is his gas tank, which I think is an unfair criticism as he has only noticeably gassed twice, Once when he competed in 'Jungle fight' which is of course set in a jungle were the humidity and heat is very high and against Kevin Jordan, where his wife was under the risk of dying from child birth.
Of course he didn't train very hard while his wife was in such a condition so his condionting was bad.

I fully expect him to beat Randy, who lets face it, is being overrated over his win against Sylvia, who has in my mind, always been a bum.

[Dostoevsky]

Gabriel Gonzaga vs Mirko Cro Cop

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[Donut62]

Gabriel Gonzaga vs Mirko Cro Cop

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This is honestly the first time I've rewatched the fight since it happened. I was too depressed. Mirko looked like total crap. Why was he letting Gonzaga circle him the wrong way? Why wasn't he opening the gaurd at all to create a scramble like he did against Fedor? Ugh. Perfect performance by Napao.

[AJAX]

I am also picking GG to beat Couture his ground game and size should nullify Coutures game plan.

[Beebs]

Elbows need to go, I've said it forever.

Why? They are a great weapon, as Gonzaga showed, and the amount of fights stopped over cuts from them is basically blown up to mythical proportions, its pretty much the same threat as a cut from a punch or knee.

It's a great weapon and incredibly usefull in so many different positions, make for awsome combos standing, can provide KO power on the ground where punches often don't allow enough room, and they can be used to set up submissions from the bottom (Silva vs Lutter)

They are a great weapon, why take them away? Its MMA after all.

[Dostoevsky]

Why? They are a great weapon, as Gonzaga showed, and the amount of fights stopped over cuts from them is basically blown up to mythical proportions, its pretty much the same threat as a cut from a punch or knee.

It's a great weapon and incredibly usefull in so many different positions, make for awsome combos standing, can provide KO power on the ground where punches often don't allow enough room, and they can be used to set up submissions from the bottom (Silva vs Lutter)

They are a great weapon, why take them away? Its MMA after all.

I agree. Knees, kicks and stomps to a grounded opponent need to be brought back as well.

[theunderdog]

Elbows need to go, I've said it forever.

pardon my ignorance sweet pea for i have never had the chance to read those posts. anyway, why are you against elbow strikes in mma?

[jimmie]

Apparently all of us who thought the UFC fighters didn't stand a chance against the PRIDE fighters weren't concidering the fact that elbow strikes from the mount aren't allowed in PRIDE but they are in UFC's cage.

This was my face when Gonzaga took Crocop to the mat and started to rain elbows down - :yikes I was like, "Holy shit, he doesn't know how to defend against those fast, short, heavy strikes and I believe that was the beginning of the end right there during their match.

Will Fedor suffer this same fate? Chances are no, but hopefully Fedor, Crocop, Nogiera, Rampage, Barnett and any other PRIDE turned UFC fighter will work on this defense.

Barnett took a nice amount of elbows from Couture in the UFC and still managed to pull out a win a win.

[SweetScienceFan]

Let's not forget that Nick Diaz basically broke even in the UFC, losing about as much as he won, yet he went over there and destroyed the golden child of Pride. Elbows didn't have anything to do with that match-up.

To be honest, calling guys UFC fighters, or Pride fighters is a bit ignorant. None of them are defined by the organization that they fight in. They are Mixed Martial arts fighters, and most of them have been in quite a few different organizations. They call Wanderlei Silva a pride fighter, yet he fought in the UFC, and was beat a couple times there before he ever fought in Pride.

When talking about the depth of each roster. It has changed throughout the years, and obviously right now the UFC is head and shoulders above everyone. For a while, Pride had the strongest heavyweight division. 205 was always close between the two. Pride had Rampage, Silva, Shogun, Arona ect. and UFC had Couture, Liddell, Ortiz, Babalu, Belfort (for the most part) ect. Outside of Dan Henderson, I have always felt like the UFC was much deeper than Pride below 185. 185/183 was always a close division between the two as well. Although, I feel that the UFC had an advantage there as well.

[theunderdog]

For one, they don't take much skill, just a pet peeve on my part. For two, and the real reason, is cuts. Do you notcie how many more fights are stopped and how much more blood there is in the UFC due to cuts than Pride and other orgs? It's because of elbows. Elbows are a cheap way to win a fight by way of cut. I think in place of elbows the UFC should allow knees to a grounded opponent, and kicks to a grounded opponent if both are down.

i respect you opinion but we differ in some aspects

1. i think elbow strikes take skill to hit perfectly. it's a fact that throwing elbows reaches a much shorter reach than a punch or a kick so i think elbow strikes take skill.
2. knees to a grounded opponent are, IMO, far worse than elbows because of the sheer strength in them. knees may not cut as much as elbows but with ground knees but they could inflict serious brain damage
and 3. i think cuts are just another part of the game. cuts are just another way to defeat your oppponent. this is why i don't see why there is a need to ban elbows due to too many cuts

[demzor]

Stats have shown that fights are NOT stopped because of cuts from elbows any more often than from punches or anything else.

I mean.. when was the last UFC fight stopped from an elbow cut? Stevenson on Yves Edwards maybe?

[RUSKULL]

Excellent dialog so far.

I wasn't saying elbows while on the ground should be outlawed only that former PRIDE fighters aren't nec. prepared to defend against them.

Another point is that UFC fighters trying to fight under PRIDE rules might not be prepared for "soccer kicks" to the head if they are down.

Just making a few points here, I'm not trying to be bias toward one org. over the other mind you................:D

Hopefully a true pro like Fedor has been practicing his "elbow defense" and maybe picking up some pointers in that regard. I'd just hate to see his UFC debut end up like Crocops 2nd UFC fight.

[Beebs]

Stats have shown that fights are NOT stopped because of cuts from elbows any more often than from punches or anything else.

I mean.. when was the last UFC fight stopped from an elbow cut? Stevenson on Yves Edwards maybe?

Exactly, even then they did not stop the fight right awy, they checked it, saw it wasn't over the eye, and gave him a good 2-3 minutes to continue. And its not like it was a clipping elbow that did it, Stevenson pounded that, and probably 20 more elbows home hard. My god though, Yves looked like a horror movie victim, the blood almost looked fake, like from Carry or something.

Also, if a cut is truely incapacitating and debilitating like Vitali against Lewis, then the opponent effectively stopped the other guy from being able to fight, and isn't that the idea?

[Dostoevsky]

I have to agree with most here, the stops on the behalf of elbows are exaggerated, infact punches probably create far more stoppages due to cuts.

[Nuke]

I don't mind the elbows, its the rubbing of the elbow/forearm on someones face that I hate. If you can do that that why can't you pinch or push an elbow into someones spine?

I also think soccer kicks and kneeing and stomping downed opponents should be legal.

[RUSKULL]

Exactly, even then they did not stop the fight right awy, they checked it, saw it wasn't over the eye, and gave him a good 2-3 minutes to continue. And its not like it was a clipping elbow that did it, Stevenson pounded that, and probably 20 more elbows home hard. My god though, Yves looked like a horror movie victim, the blood almost looked fake, like from Carry or something.

Also, if a cut is truely incapacitating and debilitating like Vitali against Lewis, then the opponent effectively stopped the other guy from being able to fight, and isn't that the idea?

Excellent post, esp. the part about Edwards, here's a pic from that fight:

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I love that pic, it personifies "warrior" to me.