Herol Graham - How Avoided?

[Russell]

How avoided was he by the big four during the 80's?

Doing a little bit of searching you'll find that he was Hearn's number-one contender in 1983, then Hagler's in 86'!

Herol was undefeated from his debut in 78' to 87', almost a entire decade.

What if he'd of replaced Mugabi or Leonard against Hagler, late in Marvin's career?

What if he'd gotten a chance against Duran? I have no doubt he could upset Duran in similar fashion to another defensive UK fighter in Laing.

Thoughts on Herol?

[Mantequilla]

He wasn't avoided at all by them.i doubt they even really knew anything significant about him.

When he was light middle number one contender, he was an up and coming fighter who had fought no world class fighters.he wouldn't even have been on Hearns radar, with the only reason the fight would ever have got made being if Tommy opted to make a mandatory.

he was a worthy challenger and top contender for HAgler in 86, but again just a victim of bad timing.Marvin had been challenged by Leonard and was negotiating that fight, while graham and the other two top ranked fighters had to sit and wait.

Then he got whipped by Kalambay and it was all downhill from there.

Graham was probably avoided to an extent by other contenders on the way up.Not by the established greats.

[biglads]

The other thing that didn't help Herol is that he couldn't draw flies to shit.

[Russell]

The other thing that didn't help Herol is that he couldn't draw flies to shit.

And Kalambay could?

He still got a shot at one of best in the world around that time in Nunn, who WAS drawing people in.

[TIGEREDGE]

he could of beat hagler in 86 and 87

[biglads]

And Kalambay could?

He still got a shot at one of best in the world around that time in Nunn, who WAS drawing people in.

I think that Kalambay could draw in Italy, plus once he had a decision over McCallum, other fighters wanted to fight him to prove something.

Graham on the other hand never drew a great crowd at home. His 'Run & Gun' southpaw style didn't appeal and he was viewed unfavourably in comparison with Sibson before him, and the Benn/Eubank/Watson combo a little later in his career.

Shame because he was probably more talented than any of them.

He WAS avoided, but he never had a big fan backing giving him the acclaim to perhaps force the promoters to put him in the ring with one of the other Brits for the WBO 160 or 168 belt.

Fight fans would have given him a fair chance against any one of the three above, but would have worried he'd stink the place out and kill off British Boxings Golden Egg of the time.

[Mantequilla]

And Kalambay could?

He still got a shot at one of best in the world around that time in Nunn, who WAS drawing people in.

That was a unification fight though.Both men were in the top ten pound for pound at the time.

Graham never got to that level.

[Bad_Intentions]

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[mcvey]

The other thing that didn't help Herol is that he couldn't draw flies to shit.
I saw him in London a few times ,Christ he used to turn me off! Skillful but negative ,never committing to punch ,he was pulling back before he even landed his jab,chin up in the air,the Ingle trademark. Benn and co gave him a miss I think but he couldn't draw crowds so there was no incentive in a match with him ,and allways the chance he would fiddle his way to a dec.

[TBooze]

Graham was to a point avoided by Hagler. But the Marvelous one was sensible, he could rightly make more money fighting Mugabi and Leonard he did not need Graham, a fight I think Hagler wins even in 1987.

Graham was brilliant be he choose himself not to fight some fellow contenders that he could of improved his resume and his case against Hagler.

[mantle11x19]

lbflb duran is twice the man of graham.. 119lbs duran started then settled in at 135-Duran is so big of a legend he is matched up against the much bigger guys.. yeah, graham without a doubt was very avoided.. viva el duran..Tony - 808

[Redondo5]

Fighters are often avoided for many reasons...

It's the old risk vs reward thing....

the factor of "looking bad" is also taken into account

Herol Graham was relitively unknown name in the US....meaning he wasn't big....so little reward.... and also very tricky (risky)....Mike McCallum described him as his most awkward opponent.... also if he is known as a spoiler (boring/defensive fighter, that makes other fighter look bad)...a bit like Winky Wright was a few years ago....his style would put many fighters off.... and he was hardly a crowd pleaser...


I personally love watching fighters like Herol Graham.... To me he was a great entertainer

[Dave's Top Ten]

he could of beat hagler in 86 and 87

As someone who followed Herol's career pretty closely, I don't think he could have beaten the Hagler who fought Leonard. I think Nunn would have had a good shot at it, but Herol wasn't quick enough or strong enough. Although he was amazingly elusive, he didn't have blinding speed. He also tended to poke out his punches at times and stick his chin in the air when coming forward (a particular trait of Brendan Ingle fighters) - this led to problems against Kalambay, Mac and of course Jackson. I think even a past it Marv would have tracked him down mid to late rounds.

[mcvey]

Fighters are often avoided for many reasons...

It's the old risk vs reward thing....

the factor of "looking bad" is also taken into account

Herol Graham was relitively unknown name in the US....meaning he wasn't big....so little reward.... and also very tricky (risky)....Mike McCallum described him as his most awkward opponent.... also if he is known as a spoiler (boring/defensive fighter, that makes other fighter look bad)...a bit like Winky Wright was a few years ago....his style would put many fighters off.... and he was hardly a crowd pleaser...


I personally love watching fighters like Herol Graham.... To me he was a great entertainer
I'm cutting my grass today ,you are welcome to watch,if the excitement won't be too much for you that is.When Graham fought in London ,you could often hear the old chestnuts shouted out by the crowd,"turn off the lights ,I want to sleep".Or "don't do that I'm trying to read",he bored the shit out of me and most of Wembley on several occasions,still each to their own I suppose.

[TIGEREDGE]

As someone who followed Herol's career pretty closely, I don't think he could have beaten the Hagler who fought Leonard. I think Nunn would have had a good shot at it, but Herol wasn't quick enough or strong enough. Although he was amazingly elusive, he didn't have blinding speed. He also tended to poke out his punches at times and stick his chin in the air when coming forward (a particular trait of Brendan Ingle fighters) - this led to problems against Kalambay, Mac and of course Jackson. I think even a past it Marv would have tracked him down mid to late rounds.

i dont know about that. hagler couldnt hunt down a tiring, inactive weltweight in leonard in 1987

[Dave's Top Ten]

i dont know about that. hagler couldnt hunt down a tiring, inactive weltweight in leonard in 1987

Speed kills old fighters. Leonard still had it which made the fight such a good one. Herol just didn't have it, as well as a lot of other things.

[JohnThomas1]

Lets end this rubbish about Hagler avoiding him. Herol was never in a prominent position to challenge Hagler above others pre Leonard. Not even close.

[Redondo5]

Hagler did avoid him... but not because he was scared he would lose.... more a case of perhaps being part of an ugly/boring fight with a relitively unknown unpopular fighter... it comes down to risk vs reward... He was a lot of risk (because of his awkward style) and not much reward

Mike Mccallum is reported to havesaid he was his most awkward opponent

He was both number 1 challenger to Hagler and Hearns as has been mentioned before. IMO they both would've beat him... but they didn't think he was worth fighting.

[JonOli]

I saw an interview with Graham the other day on youtube, and he stated he spared with Eubank and really frustraited him, and Chris came up to Herol afterward and stated something like "Herol I will never ever box you."

Here it is - 4 mins 30 in. Benn also states at the of the You tube clip that he never fancied boxing Herol because of his style; not being a toe to toe come forward fighter. Benn states he liked to get involved.

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[Redondo5]

Yes, I saw that clip too

Here Brendan Ingle confirms what happened when Graham faced Eubank... I do think Ingle goes too far though and is very disrespectful... typical of him really. ....see min 2:25

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Eubank like many others wanted to avoid Graham... that doesn't neccessarily mean he would beat Eubank. Eubank had great stamina, a granite chin and could KO with a single punch especially late on when opponents worn out. So I could've seen the fight going 12 rounds Eubank made to look silly, but like Juior Jackson fight... if Eubank catches him he could be in trouble. Granted Jackson was probably P4P best puncher ever, but I could still see Eubank flooring Graham if he had the chance...

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler did avoid him... but not because he was scared he would lose.... more a case of perhaps being part of an ugly/boring fight with a relitively unknown unpopular fighter... it comes down to risk vs reward... He was a lot of risk (because of his awkward style) and not much reward

Mike Mccallum is reported to havesaid he was his most awkward opponent

He was both number 1 challenger to Hagler and Hearns as has been mentioned before. IMO they both would've beat him... but they didn't think he was worth fighting.

Questions

When was Graham number 1 challenger for Hagler's title and what faction was it?

When was he made the official number 1?

When was Haglers mandatory actually due?

Did beating Kalule give him the number one ranking?

[TBooze]

Questions

When was Graham number 1 challenger for Hagler's title and what faction was it?

When was he made the official number 1?

When was Haglers mandatory actually due?

Did beating Kalule give him the number one ranking?

I believe he was #1 contender for the WBA

Hagler's alphabet crap mandatories were due and he gave up (stripped?) the WBA and IBF titles to fight Leonard.

I do not think the Kalule fight gave him the #1 ranking; I think in their alphabet crap wisdom as Graham was a WBA mandatory for the 154 crown he soon got the same rating at 160 when he moved up.

[JohnThomas1]

I believe he was #1 contender the WBA

Hagler's alphabet crap mandatories were due and he gave up (stripped?) the WBA and IBF titles to fight Leonard.

I do not the Kalule fight gave him the #1 ranking; I think in their alphabet crap wisdom as Graham was a WBA mandatory for the 154 crown he soon got the same rating at 160 when he moved up.

Ok, had a bo peep. WBA demanded a mandatory every 9 months. Graham signed to fight Barkley for the stripped title and fought Sumbu in a supposed tuneup for the title bout but got beat.

Hagler may not have even known who Graham was.

[TBooze]

Ok, had a bo peep. WBA demanded a mandatory every 9 months. Graham signed to fight Barkley for the stripped title and fought Sumbu in a supposed tuneup for the title bout but got beat.

Hagler may not have even known who Graham was.

The Marvelous one knew who Graham was.;)

But he did not avoid him; Graham was not well known in the USA, and when Leonard decided to come back, money wise Hagler/Leonard was a no brainer.

I think Graham probably lacked the mental ability to beat even 87 Hagler, although physically he would of been capable of getting the job done.

[mcvey]

Questions

When was Graham number 1 challenger for Hagler's title and what faction was it?

When was he made the official number 1?

When was Haglers mandatory actually due?

Did beating Kalule give him the number one ranking?
During Hagler's reign,Graham was ranked by the Ring magazine as follows
1980-0
1981-0
1982-0
1983-0
1984-0
1985-5
1986-3
1987[title vacant]-0
1988[Kalambay champ]-6
1989[title vacant] -7

[TBooze]

During Hagler's reign,Graham was ranked by the Ring magazine as follows

1986-3


Hearns and ............... Olajide 1 and 2?

[mcvey]

Hearns and ............... Olajide 1 and 2?
1986
1 Hearns
2 Sims
3 Graham
4 Barkley
5 Olajide
6 Kinchen
7 McCrory
8 Nunn
9 Holmes
10 Tate.

[TBooze]

1986
1 Hearns
2 Sims
3 Graham
4 Barkley
5 Olajide
6 Kinchen
7 McCrory
8 Nunn
9 Holmes
10 Tate.

Not bad one out of two.... :patsch Mind you Tommy was a kind of given.

[mcvey]

Not bad one out of two.... :patsch Mind you Tommy was a kind of given.
Not bad,Hagler could have met Davison ,Lee,Shuler ,Kinchen,all of whom would,imo have been more entertaining than Graham.

[TBooze]

Not bad,Hagler could have met Davison ,Lee,Shuler ,Kinchen,all of whom would,imo have been more entertaining than Graham.

I would of been more entertaining than Graham!

Hagler was always only going to fight Graham if he absolutely had to. And like you suggest it was not because he was scared of losing, it was that the chances are the fight would suck and Hagler would not get the money he wanted.

[Mantequilla]

Or because he likely couldn't have cared less about him one way or the other.He would have been no more than another mandatory foe to Hagler.

Graham would have been a worthy enough challenger around 86 or 87 and would have certainly performed better than Mugabi did, but Hagler was just looking for the payday by then.

Leonard, curry or the rematch with Hearns were his most likely options.In retrospect he fucked up quite hilariously with his choice.

[JohnThomas1]

But he did not avoid him; Graham was not well known in the USA, and when Leonard decided to come back, money wise Hagler/Leonard was a no brainer.


Well Hagler was actually going to fight Hearns before Leonard came back, Graham wasn't even on the radar.

[TBooze]

Well Hagler was actually going to fight Hearns before Leonard came back, Graham wasn't even on the radar.

Well lets see Hagler/HearnsII or Hagler/Graham.... If I am a 33-35 year old seven year Champion of the World; I know which one makes the $'s so I can picky for my acting career!;)

[Mantequilla]

Frank Tate or Olajide would have ended up getting a shot before Graham anyway imo.

They were based in America and had higher profiles.

[JohnThomas1]

Well lets see Hagler/HearnsII or Hagler/Graham.... If I am a 33-35 year old seven year Champion of the World; I know which one makes the $'s so I can picky for my acting career!;)

One step farther and if he doesn't fight Hearns or Leonard he doesn't fight at all

;)