Ricky Hatton: Is he an all time great Jnr WW? If so where does he rank?

[Beatboxer]

Genuine question here.

The Junior Welterweight (or Super Lightweight or Light Welterweight) divison is one that while existing since the early part of last century, was often shunned by many great fighters in favour of the more prestigious WW division.

Certain great fighters haven't bothered with the division altogether. For instance Roberto Duran quite logically went straight past it looking to fight Sugar Ray Leonard.

Others have used the division as a quick stop such as Floyd Mayweather, Pernell Whittaker, Oscar De La Hoya, Miguel Cotto and even Wilfred Benitez: all very good, some even great fighters but guys that haven't really taken time to establish a firm legacy in the division.

That is not to say that others have not, especially in more recent years. The likes of Aaron Pryor, Kostya Tsyzu and now Ricky Hatton have favoured the division and have sought to establish a legacy within it.

My question is, where does Ricky Hatton rank in this odd division in regards to the all time rankings?

I usually rank fighters based on two things: their resume and also how I think they would do head to head against other great fighters from that division.

Now head to head, I think there are plenty of people that could beat Hatton. Pryor, Meldrick Taylor, Oscar De La Hoya, Pernell Whittaker....to name but a few. That is not to say that Hatton is a slouch in this manner either though as I would favour him over a prime Kostya Tsyzu whom many consder to be the best Jnr WW ever for example.

Resume wise, for all the criticisms, I don't see too many as being far above him.

Nonetheless, I won't pretend to be an expert here. I'm not overly knowledgable about the division and would simply like to know where you guys feel Hatton ranks among the divisions best.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Beeston Brawler]

If you are ranking him in terms of the way Boxrec ranks fighters (i.e. when looking at AT ratings they go in the division in which they fought most often - generally) then I don't suppose there would be that many ahead of him.

When they used to rank current fighters within the all time rankings I believe he was in the top 10 - which is about fair.

[GazOC]

As you have said Hattons ranking depends almost entirely on how much weight you give to H2H match ups against great fighters like Ross, Ortiz, Mayweather, Benitiez etc who fought at weight but didn't build up much of a resume there.

If you favour H2H against any fighter who won a belt at 140 then you could have Hatton lower than 25 but if you go on resume at 140 then I think top 10 could be easily argued for.

[ThePlugInBabies]

on an achievement basis, probably top ten. he's up against the likes of aaron pryor, kostya, duillo loi, nicolino locche, barney ross, antonio cervantes, JCC, jack kid berg etc. but he most likely just sneaks in.

on H2H basis, considering some of the talent that has stopped over at 140, he doesn't make a top 20.

[Beeston Brawler]

If you rank guys in the division in which they spent the majority of their careers, you would put him top 10.

Using the other method it would be impossible to rank anyone, anywhere.

[Beatboxer]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I fully agree with your assesment...I didn't want to list too many guys that I believe would beat him for fear of being labelled a hater...

I think it's interesting that many of us, myself included, are very critical of his resume when really, it appears as though he has one of the better ones all things considered in Light Welterweight history.

Some might counter and say this is because it's somewhat of a bastard division that no one has ever really wanted to claim....

But I think Hatton actually deserves some credit here. In terms of who he has actually beaten, he has a fine resume in comparison to others.

[Eubank]

He is one of the best but historicaly the division sucks.

[Beeston Brawler]

To be fair, all the 'light', 'super' and what not divisions suck historically (175 excepted obviously)

[JonOli]

A few notable JWW names who had a lengthy stay in the division...

Aaron Pryor, 39-1, 35 KO's

Barney Ross, 72-4-3, 22 KO's

Tony Canzoneri, 137-24-10, 44 KO's

Wilfred Benitez, 53-8-1, 31 KO's. .

Antonio Cervantes, 66-12-1, 36 KO's.

Kostya Tszyu, 31-2-0 25 KO's 1992-2005

Nicolino Locche 117-4-14 14 ko's

Antonio Cervantes won 91-12-3 44 KO's

Jack "kid Berg" won 157-26-9 61 KO's

*These records also include the fighters records at other weights too*

I say, he probably sneaks top ten, being kind.

[GazOC]

Most of those fighters (esp. Ross, Canzoneri, Benitiez) wern't active for anywhere near that long or built up those records at 140, those figures are for the total span of their careers and Pryors only loss came a 147.

[Beeston Brawler]

Ditto Hatton :ko

[JonOli]

Most of those fighters (esp. Ross, Canzoneri, Benitiez) wern't active for anywhere near that long or built up those records at 140, those figures are for the total span of their careers and Pryors only loss came a 147.

Were they not, I copied the first five from a junior Welter poll and followed the date, record format. I'll go, check, and edit.

I was aware Ross had a lot of fights at welter. He had a fair stay at JWW though. All those names I've listed had very lengthy stays at Junior Welter.



Yea, I too was going to mention that Hatton is still undefeated at 140.

[Beeston Brawler]

I would certainly back Hatton against Roger Mayweather, Hector Camacho and Kostya Tszyu.

I remember a thread where someoene said that he would have a stylistic advantage over Locche as well.

[GazOC]

Chavez had a pretty good run of fights at 140.

[Beatboxer]

Chavez had a pretty good run of fights at 140.

True. Out of curiousity whats your stance on the Taylor fight? Harsh or wholly legit stoppage?

[GazOC]

True. Out of curiousity whats your stance on the Taylor fight? Harsh or wholly legit stoppage?

I've seen the fight many times and it was a good stoppage. Steele asked Taylor TWICE if he was OK and got absolutely no response whatsoever, Chavez could have killed the guy with his next punch. The time of the stoppage is irrelevent IMO, Steele was the ref, not the timekeeper.

What did you make of it?

[Beatboxer]

I've seen the fight many times and it was a good stoppage. Steele asked Taylor TWICE if he was OK and got absolutely no response whatsoever, Chavez could have killed the guy with his next punch. The time of the stoppage is irrelevent IMO, Steele was the ref, not the timekeeper.

What did you make of it?

Totally agree. I really don't understand all the fuss over it, as you said the time is utterly irrelevant.

Why should it matter if there was mere seconds left in the round? He was not fit to continue the fight, end of story and yet still people persist that Taylor was 'robbed' of a victory by Steele simply because he stopped the fight when anyone would agree was the correct one, if it was to occur a minute before the bell.

Why should there be a difference? Chavez did enough to beat his opponent to the point he couldn't continue, why does it matter that there was only two seconds left?

Great fight mind you.

[TFFP]

Resume matches up top 10. H2H its hard to favour him over any prime greats.

[Smith]

H2H he is not a top 15 fighter.

Achievement solely in the 140 division he could arguably be in the lower half of a top ten.

[GazOC]

Resume matches up top 10. H2H its hard to favour him over any prime greats.

Jesus Christ!!! I'm going to bookmark this thread, you've actually made a reasonable, considered post regarding Hatton!!;)

Can you please address this issue and call him an "annoying fat cunt" in your next post?

[Beeston Brawler]

I would say lower half of top 10 in both categories.

The only one he definitely doesn't beat is Chavez - the rest he would be in with a shot at. He certainly beats Camacho & Rog Mayweather.

[Beatboxer]

I would say lower half of top 10 in both categories.

The only one he definitely doesn't beat is Chavez - the rest he would be in with a shot at. He certainly beats Camacho & Rog Mayweather.

Disagree. I cannot see him beating Pernell Whittaker, Meldrick Taylor, Aaron Pryor, Oscar De La Hoya...and that's just naming a few.

I agree with the broad consensus: he is a top 10 LWW resume wise but in terms of head to heads against those that have passed through the division, he is more likely top 20 - 30.

[JonOli]

Disagree. I cannot see him beating Pernell Whittaker, Oscar De La Hoya...


To be fair to Hatton though one of those is probably the greatest boxer of the last 20 odd years, the other is at least pushing top ten.


If pac loses, he still may well face DLH; and gets crushed.

[Smith]

I would say lower half of top 10 in both categories.

The only one he definitely doesn't beat is Chavez - the rest he would be in with a shot at. He certainly beats Camacho & Rog Mayweather.Hatton has very little if no chance H2H against;

Julio Cesar Chavez, Barney Ross, Aaron Pryor, Duilio Loi, Buddy McGirt, Nicolino Locche, Meldrick Taylor, Tony Canzoneri, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benitez, Carlos Ortiz, Oscar de la Hoya, Jose Napoles, Pernell Whitaker, Henry Armstrong & Benny Leonard. He could have a chance against Cervantes and Perkins, maybe.

Thats off the top of my head.

[GazOC]

That list is gong to get awfully long if Napoles, Duran and Leonard are eligible for inclusion. Can we at least keep it to fighters who fought for a title at 140?

[Beatboxer]

That list is gong to get awfully long if Napoles, Duran and Leonard are eligible for inclusion. Can we at least keep it to fighters who fought for a title at 140?

Agreed. Perhaps we should scale it down to the legit linear Title as well?

Really is an odd division is 140.

[GazOC]

We're going to end up including a young Sugar Ray Robinson otherwise.....

[Smith]

Okay, for instance, a fighter in Loi who may not be included in somes top 5 LWW's, would have an easy time with Hatton. That sums up he should be no higher that top 15 H2H.

I have already accepted for 140 achievement he is top 10.

[GazOC]

Top 20-15 H2H is fine IMHO, just that the way your list was going he wouldn't have made the top 500....;O)

[achillesthegreat]

I believe so. Undefeated at the weight, linear champ, win over a great 140 pounder, win over a great 135 pounder, multiple belts, beat titlists and contenders.

Slipping up against a Malignaggi or someone of that ilk would be very costly.

[john b]

I believe so. Undefeated at the weight, linear champ, win over a great 140 pounder, win over a great 135 pounder, multiple belts, beat titlists and contenders.

Slipping up against a Malignaggi or someone of that ilk would be very costly.

Spot on but if beats mallinaggi and then goes on to beat pac then, he'll be very close to the Chavez's of this world.

[hitman_hatton1]

A few notable JWW names who had a lengthy stay in the division...

Aaron Pryor, 39-1, 35 KO's

Barney Ross, 72-4-3, 22 KO's

Tony Canzoneri, 137-24-10, 44 KO's

Wilfred Benitez, 53-8-1, 31 KO's. .

Antonio Cervantes, 66-12-1, 36 KO's.

Kostya Tszyu, 31-2-0 25 KO's 1992-2005

Nicolino Locche 117-4-14 14 ko's

Antonio Cervantes won 91-12-3 44 KO's

Jack "kid Berg" won 157-26-9 61 KO's

*These records also include the fighters records at other weights too*

I say, he probably sneaks top ten, being kind.

where's chavez.

he was a fairly lengthy title holder.

[hitman_hatton1]

Slipping up against a Malignaggi or someone of that ilk would be very costly.

he won't don't worry.

all time top tenner at jr welter.

between 5-10.

[john b]

How long did oscar stay at 140 for?

[hitman_hatton1]

How long did oscar stay at 140 for?

just looked at his record.

only 3 fights.

[JonOli]

where's chavez.

he was a fairly lengthy title holder.

I agree. He had a fair stay at 140. He's been brought up in the thread already. Losing very late on in his career to Tszyu ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) of course.

[Jack]

Hatton has very little if no chance H2H against;

Julio Cesar Chavez, Barney Ross, Aaron Pryor, Duilio Loi, Buddy McGirt, Nicolino Locche, Meldrick Taylor, Tony Canzoneri, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benitez, Carlos Ortiz, Oscar de la Hoya, Jose Napoles, Pernell Whitaker, Henry Armstrong & Benny Leonard. He could have a chance against Cervantes and Perkins, maybe.

Thats off the top of my head.
I disagree with a few of those names, but once again, I just don't see how Locche would beat Hatton.

Care to make a case for it, mate?

Anyway, on resume, Hatton would rank somewhere like 7th-10th. Head to head maybe 12th to 15th? Something like that.