Hearns Vs Leonard 2

[eborted_l]

Posted this in general but in hindsight it probably belongs here

I have only ever seen this fight once and after hearing the whole story about how Tommy was "robbed" i was suprised i myself scored it 114-113 in favour of sugar ray. I should here point out i am actually a bigger fans of Hearns than Leonard so bias is ruled out. Admittedly i was quite new 2 boxing when i saw the fight but still knew how to score, all my other scorecards previously and after seem to fit in with some POV of the boxing fraternity apart from this one where the consensus was that Tommy schooled ray. Only 1 round did i not have at least one judge support my view, so maybe my common sense had deserted me that round and i made a mistake but that means i would still have it only a 114-113 to hearns, draw hardly a robbery. Would be interesting to know how you lot scored the fight and your opinions etc. Here is my full scorecard. First score Leonard, second score Hearns.

1.9-10
2.10-9
3.8-10
4.10-9
5.10-9
6.10-9
7.9-10
8.10-10
9.10-9
10.10-9
11.8-10
12.10-9

114-113.

Thank you.

[Robbi]

Posted this in general but in hindsight it probably belongs here

I have only ever seen this fight once and after hearing the whole story about how Tommy was "robbed" i was suprised i myself scored it 114-113 in favour of sugar ray. I should here point out i am actually a bigger fans of Hearns than Leonard so bias is ruled out. Admittedly i was quite new 2 boxing when i saw the fight but still knew how to score, all my other scorecards previously and after seem to fit in with some POV of the boxing fraternity about from this one where the consensus was that Tommy schooled ray. Only 1 round did i not have at least one judge support my view, so maybe my common sense had deserted me that round and i made a mistake but that means i would still have it only a 114-113 to hearns, draw hardly a robbery. Would be interesting to know how you lot scored the fight and your opinions etc. Here is my full scorecard. First score Leonard, second score Hearns.

1.9-10
2.10-9
3.8-10
4.10-9
5.10-9
6.10-9
7.9-10
8.10-10
9.10-9
10.10-9
11.8-10
12.10-9

114-113.

Thank you.

I was very hard pushed to give Leonard a round up until the one where he rocked Hearns. I can't mind which round that was exactly. Not sure how an earth you managed to give Hearns only two of the first six rounds. More like vice versa.


Strange scoring indeed.

[eborted_l]

it was either 4 or 5, either 2 or all 3 of the judges gave it 10-8 to Leonard. i shall see if i can watch the fight again tomorrow and see if my perceptions have changed.

[Russell]

Obvious Leonard win.

Everyone and their mother knew it when the scores were announced.

Tommy was, as usual, a gentlemen.

Personally I would of punched him in the face again and knocked him down for a third time.

[Robbi]

it was either 4 or 5, either 2 or all 3 of the judges gave it 10-8 to Leonard. i shall see if i can watch the fight again tomorrow and see if my perceptions have changed.

I think if you watch the fight closely and carefully over the first 6 rounds you'll have Hearns ahead. Leonard wasn't getting off with much at all up until the round where he had Hearns all over the place. Hearns took those early rounds with his workrate behind the jab and the ocassional right hand.

[Sister Sledge]

I think it was a clear decision for Hearns. It's a shame it was scored the way it was.

[Bokaj]

I've only watched it once, but for me Hearns clearly took it. I was astounded by how well he reacted, very impressive.

If the rounds where Leonard rocked Hearns was scored 10-8 in Leonard's favour a draw might be plausible, otherwise I just don't see it.

[teeto]

I actually had it a draw, only judged it once though

[redrooster]

And they say Meldrick Taylor was shot! I was surprised to still be seeing Tommy in the ring.

Look at his last fight people!

A very slow paced bout with Hearns looking even more shaky than in his last bout. I guess you could say score-wise it was about even since Ray had Tommy teetering on the brink a few times. That has to count for something.

Had the bout been staged 4 years earlier I believe Tommy with his quickness and sharp reflexes would have ended it almost immediately. That's the only way it could have possibly ended. He was that good.

[AliFrazier71]

And they say Meldrick Taylor was shot! I was surprised to still be seeing Tommy in the ring.

Look at his last fight people!

A very slow paced bout with Hearns looking even more shaky than in his last bout. I guess you could say score-wise it was about even since Ray had Tommy teetering on the brink a few times. That has to count for something.

Had the bout been staged 4 years earlier I believe Tommy with his quickness and sharp reflexes would have ended it almost immediately. That's the only way it could have possibly ended. He was that good.

Rooster, you crack me up! Hearns was no longer in his prime, but he was not shot. He went on to beat Virgil Hill for the WBA lightheavyweight belt after the second Leonard fight.

Where do you come up with these things? :huh

[Robbi]

Rooster, you crack me up! Hearns was no longer in his prime, but he was not shot. He went on to beat Virgil Hill for the WBA lightheavyweight belt after the second Leonard fight.

Where do you come up with these things? :huh

The man is in cuckoo land.

[Ezzard]

Honestly... Going into the fight I thought Hearns had no chance. His punch resistance was gone. I know this Rooster has an axe to grind but at the time many people, including me thought Hearns was shot.

I'd longed for this rematch and then when Leonard finally granted it after Tommy looked washed up I thought it was a abd show. It seemed to me that Ray was only willing to fight again because he'd seen the shell of Hearns.

Leonard went down in my estimation as a man. You've got to understand that at this point he was probably my favourite all-time fighter. I began to think that maybe he had waited for Hagler... I suddenly, for the first time, started to see why Ray was disliked by some people.

Anyway, the fight was great. I think it was close (but all fights between these 2 would be) but Hearns won this one.

When Tommy dropped Ray for the first time you could see the tension and the weight of the defeats to Ray and Marvin just lift from his shoulders. He'd been such a great fighter, labelled unfairly as a nearly man, and here he was showing them... Great moment in sports for me.

BTW, Leonard's arms are huge in this fight. He must have been pumped up on something...

[jyuza]

Clear win for Hearns. The draw was bullsh*t, Hearns did enough to take the fight even though the fight was not a shut out victory either.

[Russell]

BTW, Leonard's arms are huge in this fight. He must have been pumped up on something...

There were talks starting at the weigh in that Leonard was using steroids and what not.

Really, really wouldn't doubt it.

[PopeJackson]

I had Hearns winning by a lot.

[Robbi]

Obvious Leonard win.

Everyone and their mother knew it when the scores were announced.


Oh deary me. :huh

[Russell]

I actually meant to say obvious Hearn's win. :lol:

My bad. :tired

[Azania]

My main man Tommy clearly won that fight....He looked the hungrier of the two...and that right hand did it again....Still remember the look on Ray's face when the first right hand clocked him...Like WTF??

I liked Leonard as a fighter tho'...it's just that his start-stop career was a turn-off for me tho'.Tommy still boxed his ears off going up to the last round...Ray had his moments,but Tommy prevailed.

[TBooze]

I hate Leonard and Tommy is one of my favourite fighters, but the fight was close. Sure Tommy knocked the crap out of Leonard but under 10 point must the fight was close. 113/112 Hearns if I remember rightly (you have to give the last 10-8 to Leonard, as it is a classic 10-8 no knockdown round)

[Ezzard]

I don't think round 12 is a 10-8 round...

First minute is all Hearns. He has Ray hurt and is dominating. Hearns is on his way to a 10-8 round.

Second minute all Leonard. Leonard all over Tommy. Roles reversed. This makes the round now even IMO.

last minute still all Ray... 10-9

[JediPimp007]

I have this fight on DVD and have watched it several times and everytime the scores are announced I get upset that Hears was robbed of victory. the crowd reaction said it all really.

He is however the classiest fighter ever "I cant take nothing away from Ray, he's a great fighter". Absolute gentleman

[JohnThomas1]

I don't think round 12 is a 10-8 round...

First minute is all Hearns. He has Ray hurt and is dominating. Hearns is on his way to a 10-8 round.

Second minute all Leonard. Leonard all over Tommy. Roles reversed. This makes the round now even IMO.

last minute still all Ray... 10-9

Totally agree here. Hearns goes gunning looking for the huge finish - he had waited years and had Leonard in big trouble a bit prior. He gets caught tho and the round swings. 10-9 is the way i have it.

[Rebel-INS]

Totally agree here. Hearns goes gunning looking for the huge finish - he had waited years and had Leonard in big trouble a bit prior. He gets caught tho and the round swings. 10-9 is the way i have it.

Exactly. If Leonard had dominated the whole of the last round then fair enough, but as you say it was 50/50.

Tommy was an absolute class act after this fight, but he was robbed plain and simple.

[Addie]

Exactly. If Leonard had dominated the whole of the last round then fair enough, but as you say it was 50/50.

Tommy was an absolute class act after this fight, but he was robbed plain and simple.

the fight itself sounds as if it was an all-time great one.

How good exactly was Hearns vs Leonard in terms of excitement?

[Rebel-INS]

the fight itself sounds as if it was an all-time great one.

How good exactly was Hearns vs Leonard in terms of excitement?

Well it was no where near as good as the first fight, but it was still very good. Fantastic for Hearns to see him deck Leonard twice, but awful that he didn't get the win he deserved.
I think it might possibly be on youtube, you should have a look.

[Rebel-INS]

I've just watched the final round again, and has anyone noticed the big left hook that Leonard lands on the break Hearns with 20 seconds to go?
Possible point deduction, but to see Hearns staggering around and still take a flush shot like that is remarkable, especially with the questions that always hung over Hearns chin.

[Addie]

Exactly. If Leonard had dominated the whole of the last round then fair enough, but as you say it was 50/50.

Tommy was an absolute class act after this fight, but he was robbed plain and simple.

Credit to Leonard for always coming out and saying he considers that fight a win for Tommy. :good

[Rebel-INS]

Credit to Leonard for always coming out and saying he considers that fight a win for Tommy. :good

Oh yeah definitely but its a shame it doesn't show that on their records though.

[JohnThomas1]

Credit to Leonard for always coming out and saying he considers that fight a win for Tommy. :good

Exactly - how many greats would have or ever had done that?

[Robbi]

Exactly - how many greats would have or ever had done that?

I'm sure Hagler said Leonard really did beat him, even though it says that on his record anyway. I might be mistaken and confused. :lol:

[jyuza]

I'm sure Hagler said Leonard really did beat him, even though it says that on his record anyway. I might be mistaken and confused. :lol:

Yes you are :good

[Ezzard]

Totally agree here. Hearns goes gunning looking for the huge finish - he had waited years and had Leonard in big trouble a bit prior. He gets caught tho and the round swings. 10-9 is the way i have it.

I know your a big Hearns fan and an encyclopedia of 80s boxing... How did you feel going into the fight?

Like I said, I thought Hearns was finished. He seemed to be getting rocked by every punch that he got hit with.

[redrooster]

^ I really think Tommy was finished as a boxer and that he never expected Leonard to call him out. Myself knowing how Leonard is, it was perfect timing.

If you've seen the Kinchen fight you would see how James got to Tommy in round four without very much pressure. Tommy crumbled easily to the mat.

From there on, James did not capitalize and did just little enough for Hearns to edge him out. But he was still an easy target and one of the easiest opponents out there from 160-168.

[JohnThomas1]

I know your a big Hearns fan and an encyclopedia of 80s boxing... How did you feel going into the fight?

Like I said, I thought Hearns was finished. He seemed to be getting rocked by every punch that he got hit with.

Ok, honest opinion and story. I was on holidays and had travelled 400km's to my best pals new town of Moranbah. He was going to be at work for the fight, middle of the day. I walked the 10 minutes to the town's big Tavern and settled into the undercard. I knew not a soul.

Pre fight i knew Hearns was very very faded. His loss to Barkley and absolutely dismal showing vs Kinchen had me expecting the worst. I'd also read all the mags and scanned the odds. I reckon i was more nervous than Hearns as they came out, and i had also made a pal. I thought SRL would win due to Hearns deterioration but i held that slim inside hope that Tommy's huge power, intense lust for revenge and the fact that they were fighting at a weight much better for Hearns might somehow give "us" that chance.

Turns out Tommy's sheer determination and Leonard's own subtle deterioration made for a top event. As Steward said, all eyes were on Hearns but he himself had noticed a lot of decline in Leonard post Hagler.

[dpw417]

Ok, honest opinion and story. I was on holidays and had travelled 400km's to my best pals new town of Moranbah. He was going to be at work for the fight, middle of the day. I walked the 10 minutes to the town's big Tavern and settled into the undercard. I knew not a soul.

Pre fight i knew Hearns was very very faded. His loss to Barkley and absolutely dismal showing vs Kinchen had me expecting the worst. I'd also read all the mags and scanned the odds. I reckon i was more nervous than Hearns as they came out, and i had also made a pal. I thought SRL would win due to Hearns deterioration but i held that slim inside hope that Tommy's huge power, intense lust for revenge and the fact that they were fighting at a weight much better for Hearns might somehow give "us" that chance.

Turns out Tommy's sheer determination and Leonard's own subtle deterioration made for a top event. As Steward said, all eyes were on Hearns but he himself had noticed a lot of decline in Leonard post Hagler.
Cheers JT.
I remember feeling the same way re Tommy's chances after the fights with Barkley and Kinchen. But after the Leonard/LaLonde fight, I recalled LaLonde commenting that he thought Hearns had a shot at Ray because of the success he had landing straight rights on Leonard...With that in mind, I thought Hearns might have a better than percieived chance than the media were giving him credit for. Because I knew he really wanted this chance at Ray...He waited a long time for ti.

[surreal deal]

I was in the minority of giving it to Ray at the time,and ive sat and watched it a few times and still thought Ray nicked it by a point or two.Tommy didnt do enough for me in many rounds and Rays bodywork was undervalued.
It does irritate me the myth of Tommy being robbed.
Oh,and despite the knockdowns,Ray had Tommy in more trouble than vice versa.

[redrooster]

I was in the minority of giving it to Ray at the time,and ive sat and watched it a few times and still thought Ray nicked it by a point or two.Tommy didnt do enough for me in many rounds and Rays bodywork was undervalued.
It does irritate me the myth of Tommy being robbed.
Oh,and despite the knockdowns,Ray had Tommy in more trouble than vice versa.

Thor is nothing without his hammer

[Ezzard]

Ok, honest opinion and story. I was on holidays and had travelled 400km's to my best pals new town of Moranbah. He was going to be at work for the fight, middle of the day. I walked the 10 minutes to the town's big Tavern and settled into the undercard. I knew not a soul.

Pre fight i knew Hearns was very very faded. His loss to Barkley and absolutely dismal showing vs Kinchen had me expecting the worst. I'd also read all the mags and scanned the odds. I reckon i was more nervous than Hearns as they came out, and i had also made a pal. I thought SRL would win due to Hearns deterioration but i held that slim inside hope that Tommy's huge power, intense lust for revenge and the fact that they were fighting at a weight much better for Hearns might somehow give "us" that chance.

Turns out Tommy's sheer determination and Leonard's own subtle deterioration made for a top event. As Steward said, all eyes were on Hearns but he himself had noticed a lot of decline in Leonard post Hagler.

Many thanks for this...

I think now that Hearns rolled back the years similar to Charles' effort against Marciano.

Still gives me a tingle up my spine when Hearns drops Leonard for the first time.

One thing I often mention that Ray and Ali shared... they were great kidders... And I'm not talking about the head shaking... But they could get hurt badly and give very little away. They often managed to act less hurth than they really were. You can see it on the replays but not when the fight is on. The only time Leonard was really on queer street was against Duran in the 2nd.

In Hearns I Tommy is chopping him up but you never see a reaction. 9th round against Hagler he is hurt but you can't see how much. 12th round similar...

I coudl watch ray and tommy every night of the week.

[JohnThomas1]

Many thanks for this...

I think now that Hearns rolled back the years similar to Charles' effort against Marciano.


A pleasure. Hearns rolled it back maybe , but he rolled it back twice as his boxing against the very decent Hill was superlative. Agree many greats rolled it back now and again thru history too. I think D'Amato was the big believer in that.

Still gives me a tingle up my spine when Hearns drops Leonard for the first time.

Me too, but man that second KD he really got the BIG bombs thru. One right hand from memory was at full length - jeez. Leonard did well to survive.

One thing I often mention that Ray and Ali shared... they were great kidders... And I'm not talking about the head shaking... But they could get hurt badly and give very little away. They often managed to act less hurth than they really were. You can see it on the replays but not when the fight is on. The only time Leonard was really on queer street was against Duran in the 2nd.

Totally agree - they were masters at it. Ali actually exaggerated his already SEVERE symptons vs Shavers and fooled him right out of his chance :lol:

In Hearns I Tommy is chopping him up but you never see a reaction. 9th round against Hagler he is hurt but you can't see how much. 12th round similar...

It's uncanny. Hagler satunned him early but it's right on the bell.

I could watch ray and tommy every night of the week.

You're not the only one :lol:

I have the video of fight 2 and must have watched it 20 full times.

[round15]

Hearns won this fight clearly. Two knockdowns against Leonard should have counted for 10-8 rounds in the scoring.

I'll give Leonard credit because he came on and pressured Hearns later in the fight and in some of the early rounds, but there's no way that fight should have been ruled a draw. I will also agree with an earlier post suggesting Leonard's body work was overlooked and underappreciated, but it still wasn't enough. Like Ali vs Norton III, I couldn't count enough rounds in that fight to justify a win for Ali. The only difference in this fight is that I couldn't count enough rounds that justify Leonard earning a draw.

[Ezzard]

A pleasure. Hearns rolled it back maybe , but he rolled it back twice as his boxing against the very decent Hill was superlative. Agree many greats rolled it back now and again thru history too. I think D'Amato was the big believer in that.



Me too, but man that second KD he really got the BIG bombs thru. One right hand from memory was at full length - jeez. Leonard did well to survive.



Totally agree - they were masters at it. Ali actually exaggerated his already SEVERE symptons vs Shavers and fooled him right out of his chance :lol:



It's uncanny. Hagler satunned him early but it's right on the bell.



You're not the only one :lol:

I have the video of fight 2 and must have watched it 20 full times.

John, you are one guy I'd love to meet up with... Stack of 80s fights (preferably on betamax just to recapture the true magic of the times), crate of beers...argue and agree on all those 80s matchups...

Is your version the one with Hagler's commentary? That's my fave one... Pretty sad that I've watched numerous broadcasts...

[JohnThomas1]

John, you are one guy I'd love to meet up with... Stack of 80s fights (preferably on betamax just to recapture the true magic of the times), crate of beers...argue and agree on all those 80s matchups...

Is your version the one with Hagler's commentary? That's my fave one... Pretty sad that I've watched numerous broadcasts...

The feeling is mutual trust me. Leonard, Hearns, Gomez, Hagler, Holmes, Duran, Arguello, Rosario, Chandler - we'd sneak thru their career sets :D

Throw in some Spinks, Cooney, Mustafa, Page and more and we'd have a cracking time. I love the late 70's to early mid 80's, absolutely love em. Incredible array of talent and fights. I don't care what anyone says - for overall strength of guys at or near the top it the period is nirvana.

[JohnThomas1]

Oh and yeah, Hagler commentating. "Come on Tommy" :rofl

[Robbi]

Oh and yeah, Hagler commentating. "Come on Tommy" :rofl

The Roldan fight with Clancy and Ryan. And Leonard II.

[surreal deal]

Thor is nothing without his hammer
How very true.

[Ezzard]

Oh and yeah, Hagler commentating. "Come on Tommy" :rofl

Ahh yes...

The thing is as battered as Leonard is he's never out of the fight. And in the last round I'm thinking: No, not again, surely he can't stop him at the finish... It would have been too much.

Those were great years for boxing. Back then though you couldn't see all the fights so easily. I still have you to thank for sharing McCallum-Jackson with me.

As a Brit the domestic scene was good too. Fighters still wanted to be British Champion and hold the Lonsdale belt.

[JohnThomas1]

Ahh yes...

The thing is as battered as Leonard is he's never out of the fight. And in the last round I'm thinking: No, not again, surely he can't stop him at the finish... It would have been too much.


I near had a heart attack that last round. It seemed to go forever and i feared the ref might stop it anytime but Hearns hung in there and showed the lessons learned from the first fight all those years ago. It would have killed him (and me) for him to have fought so valiantly and have it nipped in the bud oh so close to the finish line. It would have taken me a long time to recover!

Those were great years for boxing. Back then though you couldn't see all the fights so easily. I still have you to thank for sharing McCallum-Jackson with me.

I breathed them and loved them. The pleasure was all mine regarding anything shared. When the new wave DSL finally comes right down around my region i will be able to share some more undoubtably.

As a Brit the domestic scene was good too. Fighters still wanted to be British Champion and hold the Lonsdale belt.

For sure - not a bad era all round TBH. I lived for boxing back then, jeez. I used to scour the newsagent most every day holding out for the newest mag and the latest results of which i had almost zero access to.

[enquirer]

I know many dont like leonard,but i think it shows class to publicly admit that tommy won.....

[fists of fury]

Oh and yeah, Hagler commentating. "Come on Tommy" :rofl

Marvin was shameless in that fight! :lol:

This is still one of my all-time favourite fights, despite Leonard and Hearns being faded. For me, this fight was every bit as dramatic as anything from that decade.
I also thought Hearns won, but to say he was robbed is a little harsh. He did deserve the nod though, undoubtedly so in my opinion. Great fight.
I seem to remember a youngish Ray Mercer getting a first round KO on the undercard and Hagler describing the knockout with obvious relish - "just like choppin' down a tree."

At one point Marv also said "It's not easy coming back." There was this stunned silence for a few seconds and Tim Ryan says "Coming back?"
Marv chortles a bit and says "I mean, staying that way." (retired)

Ah, the good old days. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Marvin was shameless in that fight! :lol:

This is still one of my all-time favourite fights, despite Leonard and Hearns being faded. For me, this fight was every bit as dramatic as anything from that decade.
I also thought Hearns won, but to say he was robbed is a little harsh. He did deserve the nod though, undoubtedly so in my opinion. Great fight.
I seem to remember a youngish Ray Mercer getting a first round KO on the undercard and Hagler describing the knockout with obvious relish - "just like choppin' down a tree."

At one point Marv also said "It's not easy coming back." There was this stunned silence for a few seconds and Tim Ryan says "Coming back?"
Marv chortles a bit and says "I mean, staying that way." (retired)

Ah, the good old days. :good

I agree it's underrated actually, an excellent see sawing bout with loads of two way drama amd a helluva story.

Marvin's commentary was a highlight too, his obvious agenda made it all the more enjoyable, especially since we were rooting for the same guy :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Obvious Leonard win.

Everyone and their mother knew it when the scores were announced.

Tommy was, as usual, a gentlemen.

Personally I would of punched him in the face again and knocked him down for a third time.


Who cares, both were washed up fighters. the real fight happened in 81 at there peaks, leonard won. end of story.

[JohnThomas1]

Who cares, both were washed up fighters. the real fight happened in 81 at there peaks, leonard won. end of story.

It was lots more than that Suzie, even if both were quite past it. You'll see in previous posts in the thread plenty of us do care

:yep

[SuzieQ49]

Maybe its just me, but I dont like bringing up fights where both legends fought eachother when well were past it. too me it doesnt mean anything to there legacy. I can't stand talking about Manilla ali-frazier III fight, both looked awful. I love talking about fight of the century though. I thought hearns edged out that fight, but leonard looked pretty shot. The first fight was so good i dont like talking about anything but that. its like bringing up holmes-weaver II after there great first fight.


I would like to add while marvin hagler bitched about controversial decisions, I think leonard showed he was the classier one by admitting that hearned deserved the win over him. Leonard doesnt need to hide anything, he knew how great he was.....he has enough confidence to man up when he knew he was beaten. it takes a man to admit what he did.

[JohnThomas1]

Maybe its just me, but I dont like bringing up fights where both legends fought eachother when well were past it. too me it doesnt mean anything to there legacy. I can't stand talking about Manilla ali-frazier III fight, both looked awful. I love talking about fight of the century though. I thought hearns edged out that fight, but leonard looked pretty shot. The first fight was so good i dont like talking about anything but that. its like bringing up holmes-weaver II after there great first fight.


I would like to add while marvin hagler bitched about controversial decisions, I think leonard showed he was the classier one by admitting that hearned deserved the win over him. Leonard doesnt need to hide anything, he knew how great he was.....he has enough confidence to man up when he knew he was beaten. it takes a man to admit what he did.

Come on Suze, it's nothing like Holmes - Weaver II. Hell, Hearns beat the number 1 light heavyweight in the world two years after this. Tho well past their best they still had some championship calibre. Holmes and Weaver sure weren't still capable of winning any world title. Holmes was over 50 :lol: Hearns and Leonard were 30 odd and 32'ish.

Agree with the kudo's on Ray manning up, especially given his ego.