Did the Ringside physician of the Katsidis-Amonsot fight deserve to be buttkicked?

[Spitfire7]

26 stitches. subdural haematoma. and a bucketful of blood. possible end of career. when should a doctor say "enough?":-(

[DonPrestige]

It difficult to say especially with the benfit of hindsight. The system wont ever be perfect, is a doctor given a few seconds in a heated and amped arena suppose to never make a mistake. Also in the current climate where fighters seem to be a little over protected with oversized clown gloves and fights being stopped to early it can be a very fine line.

Take the Gatti-Gomez fight for example I think it stopped at the right place with a knockdown of a warrior which proved he was past it. That knockdown was a clear indication he was not going to do anything except get hurt further rather than earlier when he was caught in some flurries from Gomez where others wanted to see it stopped. Its a very thin line.


Also I think attention should be drawn more towards some of the refereeing we are seeing these days with moves towards more transparency rather than a doctor who is significantly more qualified than 99% of us being vilified.

[Cookie]

The injury to Amonsot is very unfortunate but not one that can really be blamed on anyone. He was taking hard shots for sure, but never looked in dire trouble really. I doubt the physician could have noticed anything unusual without thoroughly examining Amonsot. Which you obviously can't do during a fight.

The Katsidis situation is more interesting. I can't remember the last time I saw someone be allowed to fight the majority of a boxing match with such injuries. I was surprised it was allowed to go on. I've seen people stopped for a lot less. But I think the key factor was that Katsidis was not particularly hampered by the injuries. He may well have been impaired, but not to the point where he couldn't defend himself. So perhaps that was the right decision. He's not going to be blinded for life or anything. Those superficial injuries will heal very quickly.

[boxbox]

those were some nasty cuts! 26 stitches to close them up!?! wtf!?

[rushman]

26 stitches. subdural haematoma. and a bucketful of blood. possible end of career. when should a doctor say "enough?":-(

Possible end of a career and a subdural haematoma? These happened to the guy the was never even looking wobbly. If the fight had of been stopped for the sake of Amonsot everyone would have thought it was a corrupt doctor!

So you can remove those from the list, and from any criticism of the doctor.

26 stiches? That's a different story. I dont think anyone would have batted an eyelid if the doctor stopped it for the cuts. But he made the decision that it wasn't dangerous, and it turned out to be correct. The exact placement and depth of the cuts is the important thing, and the doctor knows more about this then I do.

Looks to me that he did his job ok.

[Spitfire7]

Possible end of a career and a subdural haematoma? These happened to the guy the was never even looking wobbly. If the fight had of been stopped for the sake of Amonsot everyone would have thought it was a corrupt doctor!

So you can remove those from the list, and from any criticism of the doctor.

26 stiches? That's a different story. I dont think anyone would have batted an eyelid if the doctor stopped it for the cuts. But he made the decision that it wasn't dangerous, and it turned out to be correct. The exact placement and depth of the cuts is the important thing, and the doctor knows more about this then I do.

Looks to me that he did his job ok.
Am thinking why the doctor didn't stop the fight in the mid to 10th rds. precisely for the reason of the more visible evodence ie. bleeding and injuries to Katsidis-- and he could still be winning anyway. As the fight progressed from then on, who knows the 26 stitches would have been less and Amonsot would've even been spared from the haematoma which i believe happened more likely on the 10th rd. where his head was at the receiving end of Rocky's furious flurries...

For the record, we might not be seeing Katsi for a year or so yet in order to let his wounds and cuts heal totally. That's too bad, seeing how entertaining and ballsy this warrior is. Amonsot, another entertaining fighter, might get banned in Nevada...

[Spitfire7]

A hypothetical Q: Would there be a greater and more savage brouhaha from boxing circles if it was Rocky Katsidis who was at the losing end of the fight than the subdued voices we have right now?

[Spitfire7]

For those who chose A: that petition started by Ric Lois of boxingconfidential might be your first step in the right direction:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[BoppaZoo]

i think Amonsot's Corner should have known there fighter a bit better.

like take Tszyu vs Hatton for instance, Johnny Lewis Tszyu's trainer started to realize that in his mind Kostya really was gassed and put a end to the fight and it was the right decision because Tszyu got out there with out fighting another Brutal paced round.

now i thought after Amonsot got knocked down the 2nd time in the 10th if that was me in the Corner of Amonsot i would have said no Czar ive seen enough. Thats me though.

as for Katsidis, i dont think anyone has seen cuts like that and the fight continue but as i say this there are alot of boxing promoters and political figures in boxing in America that wont to see Katsidis go far because he gives the crowds want they want.

There is big PPV riding on Katsidis i feel for future fights with say Juan Diaz, Joan Guzman etc. so they couldnt have Katsidis losing to a fighter like Czar on cuts when Katsidis was clearly winning the fight.

Thats why i feel they ran with it.

[Spitfire7]

i think Amonsot's Corner should have known there fighter a bit better.

like take Tszyu vs Hatton for instance, Johnny Lewis Tszyu's trainer started to realize that in his mind Kostya really was gassed and put a end to the fight and it was the right decision because Tszyu got out there with out fighting another Brutal paced round.

now i thought after Amonsot got knocked down the 2nd time in the 10th if that was me in the Corner of Amonsot i would have said no Czar ive seen enough. Thats me though.

as for Katsidis, i dont think anyone has seen cuts like that and the fight continue but as i say this there are alot of boxing promoters and political figures in boxing in America that wont to see Katsidis go far because he gives the crowds want they want.

There is big PPV riding on Katsidis i feel for future fights with say Juan Diaz, Joan Guzman etc. so they couldnt have Katsidis losing to a fighter like Czar on cuts when Katsidis was clearly winning the fight.

Thats why i feel they ran with it.
:good Good take, Bro, some very interesting points you raised there.

I kinda disagree a little bit though on Amonsot's corner stopping it as they might be hoping their kid would capitalize on Katsi's nasty cuts to get the win somewhere. If there is anyone more qualified to judge whether a fighter is fit to continue or not and stop the fight, its not the corner but the doctor who is there in the first place to protect the fighter's (and any individual's) health. That's what the Hippocratic Oath is all about. And if that Doctor did order a stop for Katsidis's more obvious sake, he might have saved further enlargement and swelling of the wound, and on the process, unknowingly save Amonsot from the haematoma too---all prolly without much ado nor having to rob Katsidis of his obvious victory. I think you're right on the money though (pun intended) on the American promotional stint...

Overall, that Watson guy, botched on his job as physician--plain and simple.:verysad

[BoppaZoo]

:good Good take, Bro, some very interesting points you raised there.

I kinda disagree a little bit though on Amonsot's corner stopping it as they might be hoping their kid would capitalize on Katsi's nasty cuts to get the win somewhere. If there is anyone more qualified to judge whether a fighter is fit to continue or not and stop the fight, its not the corner but the doctor who is there in the first place to protect the fighter's (and any individual's) health. That's what the Hippocratic Oath is all about. And if that Doctor did order a stop for Katsidis's more obvious sake, he might have saved further enlargement and swelling of the wound, and on the process, unknowingly save Amonsot from the haematoma too---all prolly without much ado nor having to rob Katsidis of his obvious victory. I think you're right on the money though (pun intended) on the American promotional stint...

Overall, that Watson guy, botched on his job as physician--plain and simple.:verysadthe Doc was all over the place. but i bt he had alot of pressure from the men from HBO,etc.
because its simple Katsidis can give you a Gatti type perfomance and Amonsot isnt as big in terms of earning money.

in the end we seen a war and the right man won the fight.

i agree with you on this spitfire. i just hope thats not the last we see of Amonsot.

[Spitfire7]

the Doc was all over the place. but i bt he had alot of pressure from the men from HBO,etc.
because its simple Katsidis can give you a Gatti type perfomance and Amonsot isnt as big in terms of earning money.

in the end we seen a war and the right man won the fight.

i agree with you on this spitfire. i just hope thats not the last we see of Amonsot.

Yep, fine old school warriors both! :goodSad we have to wait a year or so for either fighter to grace the squared circle once again, thanks to an inept physician..:fire

[BoppaZoo]

Yep, fine old school warriors both! :goodSad we have to wait a year or so for either fighter to grace the squared circle once again, thanks to an inept physician..:fireyeah i know after that, Amonsot probably wont be aloud to fight again until say May 2008 or so.
as for Katsidis i would say he would be ready about say Feb 2008 or so.

[Boinko]

I kept saying from the minute the cut happened "They gotta stop this fight." There was no reason to risk Katsidis' eyesight.
I was very surprised that not only did the fight not get stopped, but it didn't even seem like there was much serious conversation about it getting stopped until very late in the fight.

There is no question that Katsidis is a warrior, but I would rather see a physician error on the side of caution and stop a fight when a guy has such a serious cut. I know many will disagree with me since a fight stoppage on a cut always seems like such a unsatisfying conclusion. But, as fans, we're not the ones taking the punches and suffering the long term consequences.

[El Bombasto]

-katsidis was winning by a good margin, no doctor wants to take that away from a fighter (an undefeated fighter) unless absolutely necessary

-amonsot's behaviour did not in any way indicate he was hurt, and given the cuts issue, the doc. spent his entire time in katsidis's corner and did not have an opportunity to get a good look at amonsot

[Spitfire7]

-katsidis was winning by a good margin, no doctor wants to take that away from a fighter (an undefeated fighter) unless absolutely necessary

-amonsot's behaviour did not in any way indicate he was hurt, and given the cuts issue, the doc. spent his entire time in katsidis's corner and did not have an opportunity to get a good look at amonsot

The doctor is there primarily to protect, not "take away" (nor influence) a fighter's win, silly! Rocky's face could've been save from further mess if Dr Watson did stop the fight on, say, the middle rounds, and no one would be complaining. He would still win a TD.:twisted:

[rushman]

The doctor is there primarily to protect, not "take away" (nor influence) a fighter's win, silly! Rocky's face could've been save from further mess if Dr Watson did stop the fight on, say, the middle rounds, and no one would be complaining. He would still win a TD.:twisted:

No. That is not how boxing works. If the doctor stopped the fight because of all the cuts, Katsidis would have lost.

The doctor also knows a bit more about the risks here then you do. Go get your medical degree then start to ask questions.

[Spitfire7]

No. That is not how boxing works. If the doctor stopped the fight because of all the cuts, Katsidis would have lost.

The doctor also knows a bit more about the risks here then you do. Go get your medical degree then start to ask questions.
:patsch "Lost?" Go see the fight again and with the KD on the 2nd, and the fight stopped at 6th, who could doubt Katsi's win?

As for the second paragraph: :nut:rofl Ever knew what doctors are for?

It's idiots with mentality like that-- who believe on every book, every "authority" figures, and believe anything they're told hook-line-and-sinker, easily intimidated by titles-- that had made this world such a messy place. :-(

[Spitfire7]

A dangerous precedent could be set here if physicians like Watson are allowed on this already messed up sport of ours...

[rushman]

My god you are a moron.

First, the rules state that Katsidis would have lost if the docotor stopped it.

Secondly, go read up on some of Milgram's experiments. I know, better then you, what dumb obedience to authority looks like. Because, unlike you, I have both studied psychology and worked in the field - and I know what I am talking about.

It's idiots with a mentality like yours - people who are stupid but refuse to acknowledge it - that is messing up the world. Admit your ignorance and quit trying to impose it on others. Armchair experts, who think they are automatic authorities on everything without putting the effort of years of study, research and effort into it, well they are pretty annoying. But they get dangerous when they try to act on their ignorance.

[Spitfire7]

My god you are a moron.

First, the rules state that Katsidis would have lost if the docotor stopped it.

Secondly, go read up on some of Milgram's experiments. I know, better then you, what dumb obedience to authority looks like. Because, unlike you, I have both studied psychology and worked in the field - and I know what I am talking about.

It's idiots with a mentality like yours - people who are stupid but refuse to acknowledge it - that is messing up the world. Admit your ignorance and quit trying to impose it on others. Armchair experts, who think they are automatic authorities on everything without putting the effort of years of study, research and effort into it, well they are pretty annoying. But they get dangerous when they try to act on their ignorance.
Should i be supposed to be intimidated too with your pseudo-scientific Freudian degree? Now i know why the empty psychobabble every time you open up your arse, er, mouth...:yep

What "rules?" Katsi "would have lost" if the "docotor" stopped it? NSAC's? Nice try, "Freud.":rofl (Or is it "Fraud?":hey)

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[psychopath]

A dangerous precedent could be set here if physicians like Watson are allowed on this already messed up sport of ours...

The guy did his job proffesionally. I mean his decission was based on his medical know how . . . not based on who's gonna win or lose or who's winning or not . . . so I'd say that's beyond question.

The more dangerous precedent will be . . .doctors stopping the fights at the very first sight of blood oozing from cuts.

And if there's anybody who's gonna make an investigation on this it should be the medical institution not a BOXNG BODY.

[Spitfire7]

I understand where you're coming from, Psychopath. Perhaps you could also see mine if you read the whole course of the thread...;)

[psychopath]

My god you are a moron.

First, the rules state that Katsidis would have lost if the docotor stopped it.

I have no concern on the rest of your post so I'm quoting only the part that I'm clearing up.

If a fight is stopped after the fourth round because of a cut, accidental or not then we go to the scorecards buddy. :yep

If a fight is stopped because the other fighter is not fit to continue because of the punishment he had received then that's T.K.O. win for the other fighter.

Ok clear? :hey :hi:

[psychopath]

I understand where you're coming from, Psychopath. Perhaps you could also see mine if you read the whole course of the thread...;)

Yup I've read the whole thing dude. No problem with that, I can see your point.

I'm just saying that the Doctor based on his medical know how feels that it's still okay for Kats to continue despite the bloody nasty cuts, it's his license which is at stake on this.

[theunderdog]

the cuts were bad but amonsot did too little make the ref stop the fight IMO

[Spitfire7]

:good :thumbsup<< @ psychopath

[rushman]

I have no concern on the rest of your post so I'm quoting only the part that I'm clearing up.

If a fight is stopped after the fourth round because of a cut, accidental or not then we go to the scorecards buddy. :yep

If a fight is stopped because the other fighter is not fit to continue because of the punishment he had received then that's T.K.O. win for the other fighter.

Ok clear? :hey :hi:

Its spitfire who isn't clear. You could also add that if the fight was stopped because of the 3 cuts caused by the punches then it would be a TKO win. If it was stopped because of the one cut ruled to be caused by a headbutt then it would go to the cards.

As that one accidental headbutt cut was not in a dangerous area, it would not have been the one that stopped the fight. Ergo - TKO win for Amonsot.

[rushman]

Should i be supposed to be intimidated too with your pseudo-scientific Freudian degree? Now i know why the empty psychobabble every time you open up your arse, er, mouth...:yep

What "rules?" Katsi "would have lost" if the "docotor" stopped it? NSAC's? Nice try, "Freud.":rofl (Or is it "Fraud?":hey)

:rofl:rofl:rofl

No, the rules of the bout. The only realistic outcome from the fight being stopped is TKO loss to Katsidis.

There is also nothing psuedo scientific about psychology when it is studied or applied correctly.

What is pathetic is people like yourself, pathologically dishonest and stupid, trying to force their limited perspective onto others.

I dont mind stupid people, but I hate it when they try to force their stupidity onto others. And you take the cake. I dont care how you bleat on from now on, you just joined intellectuals like one punch on my ignore list. You have nothing valid to say - and whatever you want to say wont sway my eternal gratitude that I am not a messed up person like you with a sub-room-temperature IQ.

[psychopath]

Its spitfire who isn't clear. You could also add that if the fight was stopped because of the 3 cuts caused by the punches then it would be a TKO win. If it was stopped because of the one cut ruled to be caused by a headbutt then it would go to the cards.

As that one accidental headbutt cut was not in a dangerous area, it would not have been the one that stopped the fight. Ergo - TKO win for Amonsot.

Oh yes, now I can understand where you're coming from. The big cut that was profusely bleeding was from a legitimate punch and the smaller cut on the right side of the face was the one caused by the headbutt. If the fight was stopped because of the big cut caused by the legit punch then it's gonna be a T.K.O. for Amonsot.

But DAMN, it could have caused a controversy and a riot right there. KATs corner could have cried robbery. :yep

. . . so it's better that the fight was allowed to continue.

[Spitfire7]

No, the rules of the bout. The only realistic outcome from the fight being stopped is TKO loss to Katsidis.

There is also nothing psuedo scientific about psychology when it is studied or applied correctly.

What is pathetic is people like yourself, pathologically dishonest and stupid, trying to force their limited perspective onto others.

I dont mind stupid people, but I hate it when they try to force their stupidity onto others. And you take the cake. I dont care how you bleat on from now on, you just joined intellectuals like one punch on my ignore list. You have nothing valid to say - and whatever you want to say wont sway my eternal gratitude that I am not a messed up person like you with a sub-room-temperature IQ.
:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Did it ever occur to you little Fraud, er Freud, why the hell this is a poll? Because you have choices to make whether to disagree or agree...:lol:

Well, can't blame one with a cretin's IQ level getting intimidated and feeling like a well-reasoned opinion is being "forced" on him. A glass will always be insecure and intimidated to find it can't contain the sea.:yep

...:rofl Guess, i'll just put your hollow pseudo-intellectual posturing also into my PWNED bin from now on too...:rofl

[Alcaldemb]

26 stitches. subdural haematoma. and a bucketful of blood. possible end of career. when should a doctor say "enough?":-(

No because Amonsot was still fighting back and was actually the stronger man in the last round. A subderal hematoma is not something a doctor can see without a scan, and when the fighter is still being competitive you cannot just call the fight. Say what you will, but the doctor did not mess up.