Did Shavers really hit THAT hard?

[cross_trainer]

I tend to wonder, given his low stoppage record against non-journeyman opposition. :think

[Shake]

Yes, I think he did. His punches were usually pretty crude, though. Perhaps that is part of the reason he couldn't knock out the better fighters.

[Sakura]

Shavers was not technically skilled fighter and his speed was also average. Without those ability it's hard to KO top opponents.

[cross_trainer]

Shavers was not technically skilled fighter and his speed was also average. Without those ability it's hard to KO top opponents.

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

[joe33]

If he got a chance id say he did yes.I love the fight where jerry quarry jumped all over the guy,never let him really get going,thats how i would have tried to fight him

[mcvey]

I tend to wonder, given his low stoppage record against non-journeyman opposition. :think
Norton and Ellis thought so,check out Holmes shaking his foot upon rising from that thunderbolt right hand.

[Sakura]

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

If Shavers would own average chin and even little more technical skills he would be one of the top dogs. His technicall skills was same level as journeymans (my opinion). Foreman was quite skilled fighters and he read opponets very well and that gives forgives a lot. He has his own lacks, but his physical strenght and size was to much for most of his opponents.

[LogDog69]

I met Shavers 7 years ago at a Church function in Magnolia, AR. The preacher there was from Shaver's home town in Alabama and he invited him to his church. While we were there one of my friends raised his hand up and asked Ernie to punch his hand as hard as he could, it took a while but he talked Ernie into it and he did it. About 2 minutes later, no bullshit, his hand was solid purple and damn near twice the size of his other hand. Plus if you don't believe that then I have read where Holmes said that Shavers punched like something from another planet and Holmes has been punched by a lot of good punchers like Tyson, Cooney, Holyfield, and Norton.:good

[MrSmall]

The only reason Holmes got up apparently was because he hit his head on the canvas and it actually woke him up.
What do you make of that?

Punching is all technique I beleive, and natural aptitude.

[Russell]

Supposedly, no one ever came closer to knocking Ali out. Had Ali out on his feet, but Ali bullshitted his way through it all and Shavers believed it all, holding off on the kill.

Imagine he he'd been more aggressive and beaten Ali via TKO or something similar?

[Drew101]

In a word...YES.

Consider that despite his limitations, and his none-too-stellar handspeed that he was able to score some impressive stoppages against the likes of Young, Ellis, Roy Williams, and Ken Norton. Also, consider that he was in the top 5 for an extended period of time in an era that's considered one of the strongest in history. Hell, even in some of his more high profile losses, he had his opponents in a lot of trouble.

There was a reason for that, and that reason could simply be boiled down to two words..."punching power".

[Sonny Carson]

In a word...YES.

Consider that despite his limitations, and his none-too-stellar handspeed that he was able to score some impressive stoppages against the likes of Young, Ellis, Roy Williams, and Ken Norton. Also, consider that he was in the top 5 for an extended period of time in an era that's considered one of the strongest in history. Hell, even in some of his more high profile losses, he had his opponents in a lot of trouble.

There was a reason for that, and that reason could simply be boiled down to two words..."punching power".
Yeah and Roy Williams was a big strong dude.

[ironchamp]

Supposedly, no one ever came closer to knocking Ali out. Had Ali out on his feet, but Ali bullshitted his way through it all and Shavers believed it all, holding off on the kill.

Imagine he he'd been more aggressive and beaten Ali via TKO or something similar?

I've always believed that Shavers could have stopped him that night but was drawn to the mystique that was Ali. After that mammoth of a right hand all he had to do was pull the trigger and let it all out and Ali would have been legitimately Ko'd.

But he hesitated and let Ali recover.

[Guido]

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

Foreman had a much better jab (Liston too, while we're at it), and that let him setup the really bone-crunching punches much better -- Shavers didn't have the jab, or overall skill, to do that against the top competition of his era.

That right hand he landed on Holmes in their second fight though -- DAMN -- all credit to Larry for getting up.

[ChrisPontius]

No doubt that he hit hard as hell. The reason he has fewer stoppages against ranked opposition is because he was very limited in all other aspects.

I don't believe that he's in another category than a Tyson or a Marciano, though.

[hobgoblin]

In a word...YES.

Consider that despite his limitations, and his none-too-stellar handspeed that he was able to score some impressive stoppages against the likes of Young, Ellis, Roy Williams, and Ken Norton. Also, consider that he was in the top 5 for an extended period of time in an era that's considered one of the strongest in history. Hell, even in some of his more high profile losses, he had his opponents in a lot of trouble.

There was a reason for that, and that reason could simply be boiled down to two words..."punching power".

Excellent post - I agree. I will add my own opinion that Shavers was a better puncher than Foreman because his straight right was, well uh, straight - whereas George's arm punches were loopy (still powerful - btu did he ever hit Ali as hard as Shavers? no). Shavers had better technique.

[Doppleganger]

He had great power but was not a good puncher in that he didn't have a great delivery system.

[The Kurgan]

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

Who did Foreman KO that was better than anyone Shavers KO'd, except Frazier (who Shavers could arguably have stopped under the same circumstances)? The best boxers Foreman fought (Holyfield and Ali) weren't even staggered by him. Both Foreman and Shavers have limited KO credentials against top opposition; then again, is that such a reliable way to judge power? :think

[john garfield]

I met Shavers 7 years ago at a Church function in Magnolia, AR. The preacher there was from Shaver's home town in Alabama and he invited him to his church. While we were there one of my friends raised his hand up and asked Ernie to punch his hand as hard as he could, it took a while but he talked Ernie into it and he did it. About 2 minutes later, no bullshit, his hand was solid purple and damn near twice the size of his other hand. Plus if you don't believe that then I have read where Holmes said that Shavers punched like something from another planet and Holmes has been punched by a lot of good punchers like Tyson, Cooney, Holyfield, and Norton.:good

I met Shavers years ago, too, LD, at Ali's old gym on Main Street in Santa Monica. I'm not exaggerating, when we shook hands, if I didn't dig my toes into the floor, he'd have lifted me off the ground...and he wasn't trying to show off.

[Sonny's jab]

Yes, Earnie Shavers really hit THAT hard !

I actually think he was a better puncher than Foreman.
Foreman used his size and strength more, and had a prodding jab at times, and took a punch better, but I believe Shavers was a far more explosive puncher and some of his boxing repetoire was actually far superior to Foreman's.
Shavers could be hurt easier, and wasn't as large.

The fact that Shavers' reputation as a hard puncher is NOT based on a single instance or several KOs over "big name" opponents, and is actually based on seemingly hundreds of independent testimonies and eyewitness anecdotes, actually lends weight to the truth of his power.

Shavers wasn't so brilliant as to be a winner over many top names, but many top guys he hit (cleanly or not-so-cleanly) remarked on his out-of-this-world power.
In every fight I've seen of him he looks at worst heavy-handed, and at best devastatingly explosive.

[cross_trainer]

Who did Foreman KO that was better than anyone Shavers KO'd, except Frazier (who Shavers could arguably have stopped under the same circumstances)? The best boxers Foreman fought (Holyfield and Ali) weren't even staggered by him. Both Foreman and Shavers have limited KO credentials against top opposition; then again, is that such a reliable way to judge power? :think

Hmm...

Well, Shavers has:

(green) Jimmy Young
(old) Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton

Whereas Foreman managed:

Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
(oldish) George Chuvalo (TKO, but Chuvalo was clearly hurt in any event)
Michael Moorer

[john garfield]

I was ringside in MSG when Shavers hit Ellis with an uppercut in the first round. He dropped like wet laundry.

[janitor]

Hmm...

Well, Shavers has:

(green) Jimmy Young
(old) Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton

Whereas Foreman managed:

Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
(oldish) George Chuvalo (TKO, but Chuvalo was clearly hurt in any event)
Michael Moorer

If you hear it from one common oponent you treat it with caution.

If you hear it from three or four common oponents then you have to think that there might be something in it.

If Shavers oponents had any idea how hard he hit them then he must have been one of the bigest punchers of all time.

[Duodenum]

"Foreman could punch about the same as Lyle." "He (Shavers) was the hardest hitting human being I ever met. He hit harder than Foreman and Lyle combined." -Leroy Caldwell

"Earnie Shavers hit me so hard my kinfolks felt it in Africa" -Muhammad Ali


Is there anybody who remembers being hit by Shavers who did NOT say Earnie was the hardest puncher they ever fought?

How many of Mike Tyson's opponents have said he was the hardest hitter they ever fought? The impression I get from accounts of Tyson's opponents is that fans credit him with the most absurdly overrated punching power in HW history. (It seems as though Tyson's fans are perpetrating the myth of his power more than any of his opponents are. But with Shavers, the consensus among fellow competitors seems to be virtually unanimous.)


Concerning Earnie's kayo record, it needs to be remembered that Joe Louis put together much better combinations, and that Tyson and Dempsey were much faster, while Baer had a steel chin. Foreman had enormous size, physical strength, and could take a punch. But Earnie had to do it all with his power.

When Holmes states in no uncertain terms that Earnie Shavers was a much harder puncher than Mike Tyson, keep in mind that common opponents of Shavers, like Ali and Caldwell, do support Larry's contention about the supremacy of Earnie's power.

[KTFO]

Did Shavers really hit THAT hard?


No.

[mr. magoo]

I tend to wonder, given his low stoppage record against non-journeyman opposition. :think

Well,

His best wins were arguably against Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton and Roy Williams, none of whom were journeyman, and all of whom were knocked out somewhat early. In addition, he had a career total of 68 knockouts in 74 wins, and the testimonies of Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali ( two of the most durable champions in history, ) claiming that he had the hardest punch they'd ever felt. :conf

[mr. magoo]

No.

Obviously you've taken his best to give such an adamant reply.

You must have an incredible chin....

[cross_trainer]

Well,

His best wins were arguably against Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton and Roy Williams, none of whom were journeyman, and all of whom were knocked out somewhat early. In addition, he had a career total of 68 knockouts in 74 wins, and the testimonies of Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali ( two of the most durable champions in history, ) claiming that he had the hardest punch they'd ever felt. :conf

A good point, although Roy Williams was not a contender on the level of Norton or even an old Jimmy Ellis.

The testimony of the three guys he hit is probably the best evidence. My point is simply that many of his knockouts come against low-tier opposition, and that similar KO records have been built recently by guys that I would never class in the same category as the true top punchers of the sport.

There is no doubt that Shavers hit extremely hard, but it seems that "hardest puncher ever" is a bit of a stretch considering the other candidates.

[mr. magoo]

A good point, although Roy Williams was not a contender on the level of Norton or even an old Jimmy Ellis.

The testimony of the three guys he hit is probably the best evidence. My point is simply that many of his knockouts come against low-tier opposition, and that similar KO records have been built recently by guys that I would never class in the same category as the true top punchers of the sport.

There is no doubt that Shavers hit extremely hard, but it seems that "hardest puncher ever" is a bit of a stretch considering the other candidates.

Fair enough,

I was never quite certain myself as to weather or not Earnie was #1. Frankly, I've always kind of leaned towards the notion that the hardest hitter of all time was a title that didn't necessarily have to go to one man. While Shaver's right was certainly deadly, Fighters like Frazier, Morrison and Ruddock had wicked lefts. Meanwhile, you had guys like Liston, Foreman, and Tyson, who could hit hard with both hands. You also, had guys who's power was more like a heavy sand bag taking the wind out of you, while others were like getting hit over the head with a sledge hammer. Different feeling.

[Russell]

Look at Shaver's records and all of the pure KO's he has.

I don't think I've ever seen so many KO's one after another on any boxers record. The man left almost everyone he ever faced cold. Barely a TKO on his record.

[Shake]

I find young Foreman to be a surprisingly accurate puncher. I personally think he just timed well. It a took a while for them to get there, but he was usually pretty spot-on, especially if he could manhandle.

Shavers, judging by the amount of times he got his man in trouble and couldn't finish, simply has less coordination in my view.

[Vantage_West]

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.i agree but georges advantages were having by far more dominating than shavers an iron jaw (which helped on getting inside and really letting loose) long reach to corner men with is jab and his size he wa s agiant ali was a big man to. but george stood tall infornt of hism an and just dropped bombs like nobodies business.

migh thave impressive power but both are a differene type of puncher

[Zakman]

Concerning Earnie's kayo record, it needs to be remembered that Joe Louis put together much better combinations, and that Tyson and Dempsey were much faster, while Baer had a steel chin. Foreman had enormous size, physical strength, and could take a punch. But Earnie had to do it all with his power..
This pretty much tells it all about Shavers. He hit hard - very hard - and probably the hardest of all time. But that's basically all he did. Each one of the guys mentioned is a better "all around" puncher even if they didn't hit as hard with one shot, because each one of them had some other element to their game.

[JohnThomas1]

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

Foreman's chin also allowed him to stay in shootouts when Earnie would have already been stopped. Foreman was a better fighter period.

[fists of fury]

The impression I get from accounts of Tyson's opponents is that fans credit him with the most absurdly overrated punching power in HW history. (It seems as though Tyson's fans are perpetrating the myth of his power more than any of his opponents are.

This is your worst post ever.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think he did, Shavers power in the raw sense of the term was chilling. In terms of concussive power I'd rate him amongst the Top 3 hard-hitting HW's, for sure.

What I will say is that likes of Louis, Tyson, Liston and Lewis possessed very good raw power certainly not way behind what Shavers had. It's just these guys, could excute a punch better, were superior techicians and combined all the elements of punching (speed, body movement, leverage) together far more completely. :good

[Duodenum]

This is your worst post ever.That's it? (I was expecting a firestorm of indignation, and this is all my inflammatory rhetoric can instigate? Bummer.:huh) If you think this is my worst post ever, you ought to check the archives. I've produced some real stinkers during my brief tawdry foray into ESB.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Shavers hurt Ali probably more than anyone else. He had to be carried back to his dressing room after the fight, according to report by Eddie Cool of Boxing News.

[groove]

Ali took a lot of hard rights from Shavers in that fight. Signs of age - To slow to react or get out of the way. He nearly had Shavers at the end of the 15th. Remarkable considering the bad shape he was in at the start of that round. He gave everything so i'm not surprised he was carried back to the dressing room.

[Russell]

Point is, that's the only time Ali didn't leave the ring on his own two feet as far as I know.

Ali was tough. So that's saying a lot.

[AnthonyJ74]

Why couldn't Shavers drop Ali? Joe Frazier and Henry Cooper both put Ali down.

[Seamus]

Is it me, or when Shavers knocked the shit out of Ellis wasn't he holding his head with his left while punching with his right?

[john garfield]

Is it me, or when Shavers knocked the shit out of Ellis wasn't he holding his head with his left while punching with his right?

Very astute of you, S. I was at ringside, and thought that too.

[The Kurgan]

Hmm...

Well, Shavers has:

(green) Jimmy Young
(old) Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton

Whereas Foreman managed:

Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
(oldish) George Chuvalo (TKO, but Chuvalo was clearly hurt in any event)
Michael Moorer

I wouldn't say that Moorer was significantly more durable than Ken Norton. I'd say he was more chinny than Norton, but his superior skill made up for that. I wouldn't overestimate the chin of Ron Lyle: an old Ali had him short-circuited with one punch.

Lyle highlights another point: Foreman managed to club Lyle down over a lot of rounds, but Shavers had Lyle nearly out cold with a single left hook. I think that, while Foreman was a much better finisher than Shavers, Shavers had much more proven one-punch power, which is really my point.

Anyway, I don't think world class opposition is that suitable a way to judge raw power. After all, being a world class boxer (ie. top 5) is all about overcoming raw power, not enduring it. That's why there has never been a long-reigning heavyweight champion who had power but relatively little skill. When such boxers have become champions (Baer, Foreman, Briggs) they've not been champions for long.

[KTFO]

Obviously you've taken his best to give such an adamant reply.

You must have an incredible chin....



Yes.

[Bummy Davis]

He was overated as a puncher against quality guys, he did Ko Norton and an older Ellis( who had Shavers hurt and left himself open going in for the kill) and dropped Holmes hard but so did Snipes, He was a puncher but the Stallings fight, the Ron Stander fight,Vincente Rondon showed us he was one dimentional and not the murderous puncher legend that many make him out to be

[mr. magoo]

He was a puncher but the Stallings fight, the Ron Stander fight,Vincente Rondon showed us he was one dimentional and not the murderous puncher legend that many make him out to be


You make some good points, but I have to disagree on some things. Just because he was vulnerable and lost some fights to lesser men, doesn't necessarily take away from what kind of puncher he was. Sure you can make an argument that he may have lacked in things like speed, skill, stamina, chin or whatever, but certainly not power. As for the losses to Stander, Stallings, and Quarry, what a lot of people don't realize is that between 1969 and 1975, Shavers fought over 55 times. You can say what you want about his competition, but the truth is, when you're fighting 10x a year on average, someone's bound to catch you on an off night once in a while.

[Bummy Davis]

take a look at his opponents a decision loss to Stan Johnson a 175lber, Shavers could hit no doubt but Bob Stallings 5"10 23-23 record dropped him and beat him, stan Johnson,Vincent Rondon went the distance with him but Bob Foster Ko'd Rondon in 2 the same year, and that is what a puncher should have done with Rondon

[janitor]

take a look at his opponents a decision loss to Stan Johnson a 175lber, Shavers could hit no doubt but Bob Stallings 5"10 23-23 record dropped him and beat him, stan Johnson,Vincent Rondon went the distance with him but Bob Foster Ko'd Rondon in 2 the same year, and that is what a puncher should have done with Rondon

His power was as advertised.

It was other areas that prevented him from going all the way.

[Seamus]

I rewatched a few more of his fight today. He's great at holding and hitting.

[JohnThomas1]

take a look at his opponents a decision loss to Stan Johnson a 175lber, Shavers could hit no doubt but Bob Stallings 5"10 23-23 record dropped him and beat him, stan Johnson,Vincent Rondon went the distance with him but Bob Foster Ko'd Rondon in 2 the same year, and that is what a puncher should have done with Rondon

Foster was one of the greatest 5 175's in history. He was also blessed with an unbelievable combination of speed and power. Add accuracy. Shavers had but one of these attributes. It's a wee unfair to judge him off the Foster fight. Smith had power yet it was little Spinks that beat Holmes in the end. Power on it's own isn't everything. Make no bones, if Shavers had the ability to land his shots as often against a higher class as against lower he would have had great effect.