Roberto Duran v the other great Welterweights

[McGrain]

15 rounds

Great Welters Who Would Beat Duran Peak for Peak

Sugar Ray Robinson - Duran gets in around round 8 and has his successes but Robinson has hurt Roberto earlier in the fight and has more left. Sugar puts his foot down in home straight using his reserves to keep Duran off him and the referee pulls Roberto in round 14. Best fight in ever.

Emile Griffith - Emile may be one of the fighers adaptable enough to hang with Duran. Pound for pound Duran is the superior of the two, but at this weight, I think Griffith's weight and strength advantage tells. Griffith punches his way to a close but clear decision dominating a still defiant duran in three of the last four rounds.

Thomas Hearns - By KO, probably around 5.

Mickey Walker - This one could go either way, but i'll pick Walker to out-monster Duran down the home straight and take the decision. I won't argue with someone who wants to pick Duran.

Charley Burley - This is a rare case where Duran could find himself outboxed and outfought, if only in patches. Burley is certainly the stronger of the two, and with a fast accurate jab and power that scored stoppages up at heavy, Burley might just stop a persistant Duran late.

Jack Britton - Britton's peak came after around 160 fights as a proffessional. I think if there is anyone who can out-think Montreal Duran this is the guy right here. He is also impervious to punishment and a world class boxer, which is nice if you are in with Roberto...it's posisble that Duran could make it to hot even for this guy, but if that is the case maybe there should be NOBODY in this section.


Great Welters Duran Would Beat Peak For Peak


Henry Armstrong - Henry would get outfought by a technically superior, and for once, bigger fighter.

Sugar Ray Leonard - This one is entirely settled peak for peak :hey

Kid Gavilan - Styles would make this one very difficult for Duran, as Gavlian is liable to draw Roberto out of his boxing, and the Kid's style is horrible for brawlers, but Gavlian did come up against another puncher who was complete enough to hook of an uppercut, and that man bested him. Duran in a thriller

Barney Ross - Ross, with his hear, could take a horrible beating here. I think the doctor pulls him around 12

Luis Rodriguez - Your opinion? This one would be amazing - i see Duran just about doing enough if he sticks to his boxing and picks his spots, which Duran could certainly do...maybe Rodriguez is the wrong man though?

Carmen Basilo - I think Basilo would beat any other version but Montreal, but I think that Duran's boxing plus cunning plus his own ruggidness would combine to get him home in a desperately close fight.

Joes Napoles - Duran and Napoles put on a battle for the ages. When you tot up your scorecard at the beginning of round 13, you realise that despite the apparent closeness of the fight, Napoles already needs the KO - and he doesn't get it.

Wilfred Benitez - Duran breaks him down in the first half of the fight before stopping him with serious violence around 12.

Pernell Whitaker - I've read plenty concenring this one on ESB, and I think that both camps present fine arguments. I think Duran brings more, personally, but i don't insist upon it.



I also think Duran bests great fighters like Jimmy McLarnin, Holman Williams, Ted Lewis, Joe Walcott (Fight to the finish would be something though!), Oscar...like Jack Dempsey, about home i've started a similair thread, a rare peak can do wonders for a fighter head to head at a given weight. Duran should be ranked below some of these guys I pick over him.



What do you lot think?

[teeto]

Very good McGrain, i may not agree on EVERY one, but i'd be nitpicking, you certainly put some thought into this.

[Sweet Pea]

My picks

-Sugar Ray Robinson UD's Duran, possible stoppage at his best over 15

-Emile Griffith could outbox Duran at his best, but could also probably be outfought in the clutches, interesting bout

-Thomas Hearns KO's Duran a bit later, around the mid rounds

-Mickey Walker is less skilled for sure, but seems the bigger and stronger man, though his best did come later as far as I know, difficult to call

-Charley Burley might have the style to outbox Duran

-Jack Britton would get crushed

-Henry Armstrong would be out-skilled

-Sugar Ray Leonard would outbox Duran from the outside for the most part

-Kid Gavilan vs Duran is about 50/50 in my book

-Barney Ross would get beaten up

-Luis Rodriguez might have the versatility to pull it off

-Carmen Basilo vs Duran would be a hell of an inside fight, I might have to call it 50/50

-Jose Napoles vs Duran would be in Duran's favor because of the pace of the bout and Napoles's tendancy to cut

-Wilfred Benitez would get pressed too hard, though at WW he has a chance, and a decent one at that, though I think Duran's pressure and mixture of defense would win out over Benitez's countering skills

-Pernell Whitaker was too flat-footed at WW, though I'd choose him at LW

[McGrain]

Good post Pea. You think Duran smashes Kid Lewis, too?

Teeto, who do you particularaly disagree upon?

[Sweet Pea]

Good post Pea. You think Duran smashes Kid Lewis, too?Pretty much, as Lewis obviously wasn't better than Britton, and I just believe Duran to be too skilled for either of them. You know my thoughts on that period though.

[McGrain]

Pretty much, as Lewis obviously wasn't better than Britton, and I just believe Duran to be too skilled for either of them. You know my thoughts on that period though.

Nothing to be done :(


Here's another quesiton - which of these fights do you think would be best? How about Napoles?

[teeto]

Teeto, who do you particularaly disagree upon?

I was just thinking maybe Britton, but you make a good case for him. Also, the only advantages i see for Walker over Duran is size and strength, im not too sure if its enough, It may come down to who you see as the most 'prolific' at what they do best. Could Duran beat a larger guy who did tremendously well against great fighters even naturally larger than himself? I'm not sure, but i'll say he might do, he certainly is a stylistic good match-up for Walker imo.

[dpw417]

15 rounds

Great Welters Who Would Beat Duran Peak for Peak

Sugar Ray Robinson - Duran gets in around round 8 and has his successes but Robinson has hurt Roberto earlier in the fight and has more left. Sugar puts his foot down in home straight using his reserves to keep Duran off him and the referee pulls Roberto in round 14. Best fight in ever.

Emile Griffith - Emile may be one of the fighers adaptable enough to hang with Duran. Pound for pound Duran is the superior of the two, but at this weight, I think Griffith's weight and strength advantage tells. Griffith punches his way to a close but clear decision dominating a still defiant duran in three of the last four rounds.

Thomas Hearns - By KO, probably around 5.

Mickey Walker - This one could go either way, but i'll pick Walker to out-monster Duran down the home straight and take the decision. I won't argue with someone who wants to pick Duran.

Charley Burley - This is a rare case where Duran could find himself outboxed and outfought, if only in patches. Burley is certainly the stronger of the two, and with a fast accurate jab and power that scored stoppages up at heavy, Burley might just stop a persistant Duran late.

Jack Britton - Britton's peak came after around 160 fights as a proffessional. I think if there is anyone who can out-think Montreal Duran this is the guy right here. He is also impervious to punishment and a world class boxer, which is nice if you are in with Roberto...it's posisble that Duran could make it to hot even for this guy, but if that is the case maybe there should be NOBODY in this section.


Great Welters Duran Would Beat Peak For Peak


Henry Armstrong - Henry would get outfought by a technically superior, and for once, bigger fighter.

Sugar Ray Leonard - This one is entirely settled peak for peak :hey

Kid Gavilan - Styles would make this one very difficult for Duran, as Gavlian is liable to draw Roberto out of his boxing, and the Kid's style is horrible for brawlers, but Gavlian did come up against another puncher who was complete enough to hook of an uppercut, and that man bested him. Duran in a thriller

Barney Ross - Ross, with his hear, could take a horrible beating here. I think the doctor pulls him around 12

Luis Rodriguez - Your opinion? This one would be amazing - i see Duran just about doing enough if he sticks to his boxing and picks his spots, which Duran could certainly do...maybe Rodriguez is the wrong man though?

Carmen Basilo - I think Basilo would beat any other version but Montreal, but I think that Duran's boxing plus cunning plus his own ruggidness would combine to get him home in a desperately close fight.

Joes Napoles - Duran and Napoles put on a battle for the ages. When you tot up your scorecard at the beginning of round 13, you realise that despite the apparent closeness of the fight, Napoles already needs the KO - and he doesn't get it.

Wilfred Benitez - Duran breaks him down in the first half of the fight before stopping him with serious violence around 12.

Pernell Whitaker - I've read plenty concenring this one on ESB, and I think that both camps present fine arguments. I think Duran brings more, personally, but i don't insist upon it.



I also think Duran bests great fighters like Jimmy McLarnin, Holman Williams, Ted Lewis, Joe Walcott (Fight to the finish would be something though!), Oscar...like Jack Dempsey, about home i've started a similair thread, a rare peak can do wonders for a fighter head to head at a given weight. Duran should be ranked below some of these guys I pick over him.



What do you lot think?
Hey! You gave me a helluva arguement on Duran/Walker!:lol:

[teeto]

I think Napoles or Gavilan would be best because not only would they be amazing brawls, they would feature true class from both parties.

On the Gavilan bout, like Pea i too am very torn 50/50, that would be absolutely fantastic.

[Sweet Pea]

Duran/Napoles at LW would be one of the fights I'd most like to see, though it would be excellent at WW as well. Obviously Gavilan as well. I pretty much agree with Teeto.

[istmeno]

My picks

-Sugar Ray Robinson UD's Duran, possible stoppage at his best over 15

-Emile Griffith could outbox Duran at his best, but could also probably be outfought in the clutches, interesting bout

-Thomas Hearns KO's Duran a bit later, around the mid rounds

-Mickey Walker is less skilled for sure, but seems the bigger and stronger man, though his best did come later as far as I know, difficult to call

-Charley Burley might have the style to outbox Duran

-Jack Britton would get crushed

-Henry Armstrong would be out-skilled

-Sugar Ray Leonard would outbox Duran from the outside for the most part

-Kid Gavilan vs Duran is about 50/50 in my book

-Barney Ross would get beaten up

-Luis Rodriguez might have the versatility to pull it off

-Carmen Basilo vs Duran would be a hell of an inside fight, I might have to call it 50/50

-Jose Napoles vs Duran would be in Duran's favor because of the pace of the bout and Napoles's tendancy to cut

-Wilfred Benitez would get pressed too hard, though at WW he has a chance, and a decent one at that, though I think Duran's pressure and mixture of defense would win out over Benitez's countering skills

-Pernell Whitaker was too flat-footed at WW, though I'd choose him at LW

pea the only thing i take issue with is your result of duran leonard. this is the only fight that actually happened, peak for peak, yet somehow you forsee a different result than what actually happened.

it is nice to think of what could have happened, but in this case facts are facts. they met in their prime, and duran won the fight. no amount of ifs will ever change that.

[Sweet Pea]

pea the only thing i take issue with is your result of duran leonard. this is the only fight that actually happened, peak for peak, yet somehow you forsee a different result than what actually happened.

it is nice to think of what could have happened, but in this case facts are facts. they met in their prime, and duran won the fight. no amount of ifs will ever change that.I could easily say Leonard schooled Duran in the rematch in the same year, so why was he then not in his prime?

You'll respond by saying Duran was not himself in the rematch, while Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made to frustrate Duran. In that case, I could easily say Leonard was not himself in the first fight, as Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made for Duran's style.

The way I see it, Duran fooled Leonard into fighting his style in the firtst fight due to the pre-fight hype and events, while Leonard fooled Duran into coming in out of shape and clowned him in the rematch. Neither were quite at their best for either fight IMO, Duran psychologically and Leonard stylistically.

I believe if Leonard fought a smarter fight, he'd have beaten Duran, because simply put, Duran had more issues with Leonard's style than Leonard did with Duran's. I think that showed in the outcome of the two bouts. Obviously Duran was not at his best, but he still used the same style as in the first fight, Leonard just refused to oblige this time.

That's my personal take. I'd take Leonard to outbox Duran for the most part with both 100% motivated and fighting to the best of their ability. I understand your views as well though.

[McGrain]

Hey! You gave me a helluva arguement on Duran/Walker!:lol:


Yeah, that was fun. Once I sobered up.

[Addie]

pea the only thing i take issue with is your result of duran leonard. this is the only fight that actually happened, peak for peak, yet somehow you forsee a different result than what actually happened.

it is nice to think of what could have happened, but in this case facts are facts. they met in their prime, and duran won the fight. no amount of ifs will ever change that.

Peak for peak, when Leonard isn't angry at Duran having insulted his wife, Leonard would box on the outside and use lateral movement to beat Duran.

Duran has a win over peak Leonard, and Leonard has a win over peak Duran.

[Mendoza]

Question on the Sugar Ray vs Duran fights. Sugar Ray was a fighter who listed to Dundee, when he gave the ” You are blowing it kid speech “ vs. Hearns. I beleive Dundee was also the architect for Sugar's Ray tactical fight vs. Hagler.

What did Dundee say in the corner to Sugar Ray when he lost to Duran? Does anyone remember?

Regarding Duran, his best stuff was at lightweight. Duran was to me is hit or miss at welter vs the best ever.

[TIGEREDGE]

were's de la hoya, mayweather and trinidad

I fancy de la hoya to beat duran at welter
duran to beat tito
duran to beat PBF

i agree with nearly all your predictions

I know that DLH and pbf didn't have a really long reign as welterweight champ but neither did ray leonard, thomas hearns or wilfred benitez

[Rebel-INS]

were's de la hoya, mayweather and trinidad

I fancy de la hoya to beat duran at welter
duran to beat tito
duran to beat PBF

i agree with nearly all your predictions

I know that DLH and pbf didn't have a really long reign as welterweight champ but neither did ray leonard, thomas hearns or wilfred benitez

Yes but Hearns, Leonard and Benitez are better than Tito, De La hoya and PBF.

[teeto]

were's de la hoya, mayweather and trinidad

I fancy de la hoya to beat duran at welter
duran to beat tito
duran to beat PBF

i agree with nearly all your predictions

I know that DLH and pbf didn't have a really long reign as welterweight champ but neither did ray leonard, thomas hearns or wilfred benitez
Its obvious im a Duran fan, but i tell you now without bias, there is no chance of DLH beating Duran at 147, ive done this one before, but at this time all im saying is NO CHANCE.

[he grant]

Duran over Leonard settled ? Based on what ? Leonard by decision.

Hearns by KO ...

Benetiez by decision ..

Robinson by decision ..

Burley not enough film for me to make a call but from all I read quite possible he beats Duran

Don't count Napoles out , he was exceptional. I say he beats Duran at 147.

[TIGEREDGE]

Yes but Hearns, Leonard and Benitez are better than Tito, De La hoya and PBF.
leonard and co were better than most welterweights in history but it still does not mean that the recent greats should not be mentioned. pbf, tito and oscar were all exceptional at this weight

[natonic]

You can't say Duran beat Leonard peak to peak and completely disregard what happened only 5 months later. Duran won a close decision. Leonard made Duran quit. That's almost unprecedented in the sport. It's 1 to 1 peak to peak with Leonard holding the more resounding result. Result: Leonard by decision. I think the "Montreal" Duran would've given Tommy Hearns a great fight. He was easy for Tommy 4 years later up another weight. I'll take Tommy, but think it could've been a great fight. I don't think Duran could beat Robinson at this weight. Griffith and Napoles would be pick'em fights vs Duran. I'd give the edge to Armstrong.

[teeto]

The only legacy type edge that you can give Duran over Leonard in their series is that Duran beat Leonard at LEONARD'S best weight imo, that's all that i can really say i honestly can give to Duran, the other stuff doesnt hold water, what happened in the bouts regardless of tactics, preparation, whatever, happened.

[natonic]

The only legacy type edge that you can give Duran over Leonard in their series is that Duran beat Leonard at LEONARD'S best weight imo, that's all that i can really say i honestly can give to Duran, the other stuff doesnt hold water, what happened in the bouts regardless of tactics, preparation, whatever, happened.

Agreed. I don't buy the Duran was not properly trained for the second fight argument. That's his problem. Consistency. It's all part of the equation. I also don't buy the Leonard fought Duran's fight in Montreal argument. Leonard thought he could beat Duran that way. He gave him a great fight. I think the Montreal fight is one of the all-time great fights. Duran was just a little better that night. Leonard adjusted his gameplan for the second fight.

[he grant]

Guys , does anyone go on facts ? Leonjard always had the skills to outbox Duran. No knock on Duran who I love but it's a fact. In the first fight the far more experienced Duran got into Leonard's head and Ray fought a dumb fight. He went toe to toe with Duran, in Duran's prime and fought him tooth and nail. It was a courageous but dumb move. Ray learned his lesson and easily outboxed Duran in the rematch. Ray had the size, speed and skills to beat Duran at welter. When Ray fought his fight he was the better welter.

Duran did not make Ray fight Duran's fight the first time , Ray did.

[JohnThomas1]

Guys , does anyone go on facts ? Leonjard always had the skills to outbox Duran. No knock on Duran who I love but it's a fact. In the first fight the far more experienced Duran got into Leonard's head and Ray fought a dumb fight. He went toe to toe with Duran, in Duran's prime and fought him tooth and nail. It was a courageous but dumb move. Ray learned his lesson and easily outboxed Duran in the rematch. Ray had the size, speed and skills to beat Duran at welter. When Ray fought his fight he was the better welter.

Duran did not make Ray fight Duran's fight the first time , Ray did.

She's an age old ESB debate this one - but i agree with you. I too am of the inkling Leonard chose the path of the fight more than Duran imposed it.

[Robbi]

She's an age old ESB debate this one - but i agree with you. I too am of the inkling Leonard chose the path of the fight more than Duran imposed it.

No need to be of the "inkling" any longer. It's correct. Leonard said during the build-up to the fight that he would beat Duran at his own game. He was so annoyed at Duran's insults and trash talking that he said "I better give this guy a beating".


No debate needed.

[Mantequilla]

Did he choose to get badly staggered early on?.That had a big part in Duran gaining the initiative.

There was no reason to think he should have needed to move a lot to win.he was the bigger man and a potential great in his own right.

It says more about Duran that Leonard may have needed to get on his bike to win despite being the bigger man.

Something that doesn't get noted much about that first fight is that Duran won largely because he had better fundamentals and skills...not because some brutish slugging aggressor was welcomed in with open arms by the cultured boxer.That's too simplistic an analysis.

Ray may have fought "his fight" but he wasn't voluntarily choosing to get punched in the face.

btw i would take the Leonard from the second fightor the Hearns bout to win a 9-6'ish decision against the best Welter Duran.

[Loewe]

No need to be of the "inkling" any longer. It's correct. Leonard said during the build-up to the fight that he would beat Duran at his own game. He was so annoyed at Duran's insults and trash talking that he said "I better give this guy a beating".


No debate needed.

Well but then Duran got he wanted if he imposed it inside the ring or before doesn´t matter. He made Leonard wanting to beat him at Duran´s game.

[enquirer]

Perfect points mantequilla. Why dance against a 135 er when you are younger,faster,stronger and have more power? I think that second round bomb showed leonard duran had the power and ferocity to run him out of the ring so leonard had to respond with something to get durans respect. I bet roberto thought all his christmases had come at once when he realised he could hurt ray with a single shot. I think thats the most ray has ever been hurt incuding the hearns rematch and mr lalonde. Why do people think ray fought the wrong fight when it took him several rounds by his own admission to recover after the second? Did hearns do the right thing in going toe to with hagler to gain marvins respect? Hindsight is a great thing.

However,whether ray could have beat roberto in a rematch prime for prime by boxing is a little indeterminate as roberto messed up by being indisciplined,not rays fault and the win is his....
I also feel hearns v duran at 147 would have been great,nothing like the 154 match,if roberto can slip the hearns jab he wins,if not hearns wins...Great match up prime for prime,and the hardest welter for duran to beat due to size,speed,power and style....

[he grant]

Why dance against a 135 pounder ? Because he proved Duran could beat him a phone booth fighting Duran's fight. In addition, we know Duran was no ordinary 135 pounder but an all time great. Yes Duran rocked Leonard in the second round. Again, we are talking about Duran still in his prime. However, to Leonard's credit he quickly regrouped and was never seriously hurt like that again in 39 rounds with Duran.

Sorry about rehashing an old debate. This one is old on every board I've tested out ....

[enquirer]

Before the fight leonard was also an atg fighter and naturally much bigger. Before the fight we didnt know duran could hurt ray that much or that he could outbrawl ray....Hindsight is a wonderful thing......

[istmeno]

I could easily say Leonard schooled Duran in the rematch in the same year, so why was he then not in his prime?

You'll respond by saying Duran was not himself in the rematch, while Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made to frustrate Duran. In that case, I could easily say Leonard was not himself in the first fight, as Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made for Duran's style.

The way I see it, Duran fooled Leonard into fighting his style in the firtst fight due to the pre-fight hype and events, while Leonard fooled Duran into coming in out of shape and clowned him in the rematch. Neither were quite at their best for either fight IMO, Duran psychologically and Leonard stylistically.

I believe if Leonard fought a smarter fight, he'd have beaten Duran, because simply put, Duran had more issues with Leonard's style than Leonard did with Duran's. I think that showed in the outcome of the two bouts. Obviously Duran was not at his best, but he still used the same style as in the first fight, Leonard just refused to oblige this time.

That's my personal take. I'd take Leonard to outbox Duran for the most part with both 100% motivated and fighting to the best of their ability. I understand your views as well though.

no my response would be the one straight out of leonards mouth in the playboy interview. "i knew that duran was patying and living high, so i wanted to get him in the ring asap." because he knew that duran would not be able to get in top shape.

the only fight where both fighters were in top fighting shape, was the first. that is the definition of prime. so regardless of whether you feel srl fought the correct fight or not we do have a prime for prime tangible result.

and there is a huge difference to be taken out of your game mentally which is what happened to ray, and bveing put into a situation where you do not have a fair opportunity to get into top physical shape based on the terms put infront of you.

leonard got beaten because of what happened in the ring. duran was beaten by the terms in the contract.

[he grant]

Leonard was considered an all time great fighter before the first Duran fight ? By who? Based on what, one win over Bentiez ?

[Robbi]

I could easily say Leonard schooled Duran in the rematch in the same year, so why was he then not in his prime?

You'll respond by saying Duran was not himself in the rematch, while Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made to frustrate Duran. In that case, I could easily say Leonard was not himself in the first fight, as Leonard was fighting a fight tailor-made for Duran's style.

The way I see it, Duran fooled Leonard into fighting his style in the firtst fight due to the pre-fight hype and events, while Leonard fooled Duran into coming in out of shape and clowned him in the rematch. Neither were quite at their best for either fight IMO, Duran psychologically and Leonard stylistically.

I believe if Leonard fought a smarter fight, he'd have beaten Duran, because simply put, Duran had more issues with Leonard's style than Leonard did with Duran's. I think that showed in the outcome of the two bouts. Obviously Duran was not at his best, but he still used the same style as in the first fight, Leonard just refused to oblige this time.

That's my personal take. I'd take Leonard to outbox Duran for the most part with both 100% motivated and fighting to the best of their ability. I understand your views as well though.

Agreed with what you said, most of it anyway. But Duran used the same style? To a certain extent, yes. He was coming forward, but the comparison ends there. He wasn't imposing himself in the same manner. Fire and intensity. Obviously Duran would do different things inside the ring based on how Leonard fights him and vice versa. And he couldn't quite do the same things in their second fight as Leonard adjusted. It takes 'two to tangle' as they say. The two of them have to adapt with each other and what their each faced with.

But when Duran was having success in their rematch, which was in patches when Leonard was against the ropes, his handspeed and timing wasn't the same. IMO he wasn't catching Leonard with the same authoritive punches as he had done in their first counter. He looked sluggish.

I suppose I'm not 'outright' diagreeing with you as you did say Duran "was not at his best"

[enquirer]

Leonard was an atg fighter before duran based on hindsight,and his skill set....

[Longhhorn71]

Benitez beat Duran at JrMW.....and didn't appear to be intimidated by Duran at all.

Why wouldn't he do the same at Welter?

Styles do make fights.

[Sweet Pea]

Benitez beat Duran at JrMW.....and didn't appear to be intimidated by Duran at all.

Why wouldn't he do the same at Welter?

Styles do make fights.Duran was nowhere near his best for that fight. I know it's always the excuse with him, but it's the truth for anyone willing to see it. Duran was just inconsistent post-Leonard II due to an overall lack of motivation.

Duran has all the skills to beat Benitez, though it gets more difficult the higher the weight goes.

[natonic]

no my response would be the one straight out of leonards mouth in the playboy interview. "i knew that duran was patying and living high, so i wanted to get him in the ring asap." because he knew that duran would not be able to get in top shape.

the only fight where both fighters were in top fighting shape, was the first. that is the definition of prime. so regardless of whether you feel srl fought the correct fight or not we do have a prime for prime tangible result.

and there is a huge difference to be taken out of your game mentally which is what happened to ray, and bveing put into a situation where you do not have a fair opportunity to get into top physical shape based on the terms put infront of you.

leonard got beaten because of what happened in the ring. duran was beaten by the terms in the contract.

That's just skewing history to suit your argument. OK, I'll play along. Montreal Duran was the prime welterweight Duran. Duran of 5 months later was past his prime (you say). Fair enough. Let's go with that. The Leonard in Montreal wasn't the prime Leonard. He'd had one really big fight (Benitez), which in no way prepared him for Duran. Conversely, Duran had 3 fights with Dejesus, Buchanan, Palomino, Mamby, Fernandez, Kobayashi, Marcel, etc. Prime Leonard was 15 months after Montreal when he fought hearns. By that time he'd had 3 big fights (plus Kalule and Bonds) and had gained invaluable experience against Duran. Few welterweights ever would have beaten Leonard on September 16, 1981 and I don't think Duran is one of them.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Be careful underating Duran!

In the match against Leonard, where Duran quit, he went in totally unprepared! He lost a stack of weight, recovering from a slob state in just weeks, just to get in with Leonard. This was unprofessional, bloody sad, and is also well documented.

The guy was a legend. As are most of the other names raised in this thread.

[TIGEREDGE]

Be careful underating Duran!

In the match against Leonard, where Duran quit, he went in totally unprepared! He lost a stack of weight, recovering from a slob state in just weeks, just to get in with Leonard. This was unprofessional, bloody sad, and is also well documented.

The guy was a legend. As are most of the other names raised in this thread.

you are right. Leonard has said many times that he wanted a quick rematch because duran would of been unprepared for it

[Holmes' Jab]

vs Duran Peak for Peak:

Sugar Ray Robinson: Robbo, UD.

Emile Griffith: Griffith, close UD.

Thomas Hearns: Tommy always destroys him, a few rounds later maybe, but it's still an ultra-horrible matchup for Duran. KO5.

Mickey Walker: Walker, close UD.

Charley Burley: Duran, UD. An on song Burley will run it close.

Jack Britton: Duran, mid-late TKO.

Sugar Ray Leonard: Leonard, close UD (if Ray fights his own fight, he wins).

Henry Armstrong: Duran, late stoppage (Armstrong is better P4P, though).

Kid Gavilan: Duran, UD.

Barney Ross: Duran stops Barney, mid-rounds (so much as it pains me to say it).

Luis Rodriguez: Duran, close decision.

Carmen Basilo: Duran, late TKO. In a barnburner.

Joes Napoles: Duran, late TKO (probably cuts).

Wilfred Benitez: Duran, UD.

Pernell Whitaker: 50/50. Can't call.

[DINAMITA]

I think that the Duran of the night he beat SRL could have beaten any of the great welters, excluding SRR.

[arther1045]

[quote=natonic]That's just skewing history to suit your argument. OK, I'll play along. Montreal Duran was the prime welterweight Duran. Duran of 5 months later was past his prime (you say).


Leonard also says that. Leonard has admitted over and over again that Duran had nothing in the 2nd fight compared to the first fight. I can't believe anyone is really debating this.

[he grant]

Duran had trouble with boxers. He was terribly frustrated by Edwin Viruet at lightweight. He had difficult moments against Saoul Mamby. Enough with the Duran apologists. Leonard outboxed him in the second fight because he could. Bentiez easily defeated Duran at 154 again because he could. It was a fight Duran trained very hard for but it did not matter. Duran was in as good or better shape for the Bentiez fight as he was for Cuevas, Davey Moore or Hagler. He simply did not have the ability at the larger weights to defeat master boxers. No disgrace. Leonard and the welterweight Bentiez were two all time greats. However, no excuses either.

[Mantequilla]

Duran's legs had gone by the time he fought Benitez(i agree that Benitez was simply the better 154 fighter).

he had become more like an undersized James Toney stylistically.only able to excel against certain styles.

[Dempsey1238]

Think you guys underated Ross. Ross wont be beating up by Duran, Ross will box, move around the ring, and out point Duran imo. That left jab of Ross will keep Duran off imo.

[arther1045]

[quote=Longhhorn71]Benitez beat Duran at JrMW.....and didn't appear to be intimidated by Duran at all.

Why wouldn't he do the same at Welter?


Because Duran was obviously a different fighter in 1982 at 154 the he was in 1980 at 147. Have you ever watched Duran/Leonard 1 and Duran/Benitez. He was in slow motion against Benitez compared to the first Leonard fight.

[arther1045]

Duran had trouble with boxers. He was terribly frustrated by Edwin Viruet at lightweight. He had difficult moments against Saoul Mamby. Enough with the Duran apologists. Leonard outboxed him in the second fight because he could. Bentiez easily defeated Duran at 154 again because he could. It was a fight Duran trained very hard for but it did not matter. Duran was in as good or better shape for the Bentiez fight as he was for Cuevas, Davey Moore or Hagler. He simply did not have the ability at the larger weights to defeat master boxers. No disgrace. Leonard and the welterweight Bentiez were two all time greats. However, no excuses either.


I always hear that Duran had trouble with boxers. What does that even mean. Everyone has trouble with boxers if they are looking for a KO. Duran beat Viruet easily both times and I don't think Mamby won a round but we here he had trouble. You know a fighter is great when just because he can't ko a guy that means he had a hard time.

Doesn't matter what Duran did at 154 in this debate. Duran was a totally different fighter at 147 in his 20s then he was at 154 in his 30s. This is extremely obvious.

[redrooter]

Guys , does anyone go on facts ? Leonjard always had the skills to outbox Duran. No knock on Duran who I love but it's a fact. In the first fight the far more experienced Duran got into Leonard's head and Ray fought a dumb fight. He went toe to toe with Duran, in Duran's prime and fought him tooth and nail. It was a courageous but dumb move. Ray learned his lesson and easily outboxed Duran in the rematch. Ray had the size, speed and skills to beat Duran at welter. When Ray fought his fight he was the better welter.

Duran did not make Ray fight Duran's fight the first time , Ray did.

Another to be fooled by the Leonard media machine! You need to read Randy Gordon's true account of events!!

Another to be put on the path to enlightenment by

THE REDROOSTER!!!

[Loewe]

I always hear that Duran had trouble with boxers. What does that even mean. Everyone has trouble with boxers if they are looking for a KO. Duran beat Viruet easily both times and I don't think Mamby won a round but we here he had trouble. You know a fighter is great when just because he can't ko a guy that means he had a hard time.

Doesn't matter what Duran did at 154 in this debate. Duran was a totally different fighter at 147 in his 20s then he was at 154 in his 30s. This is extremely obvious.

Well, i suppose they mean Duran had trouble with boxers who are bigger than him and so he wouldn´t have a strength advantage on the inside. And I tend to agree with that. But the Duran critics should also see that Duran was very inconsistent at the higher weights and much less motivated than at lightweight. That is not an excuse but an explanation.

Imo he lost the second fight due to different reasons. Firstly, he had trouble to get in shape after his partying, secondly I think he underestimated Leonard after his win, third Leonard had the mental edge in the second one, fourth Duran lacked motivation after the win and finally fifth Leonard had the right gameplan this time.