Tunney/Dempsey were primitive

[cross_trainer]

I offer those who claim either of these men have underdeveloped, primitive styles to point out exactly what they do wrong, and how many more mistakes they make than today's lightheavies, cruisers, and heavies.

Be specific.





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[Dempsey1238]

They keep there hands down lol.

[cross_trainer]

They keep there hands down lol.

Well, yes. :D

Other than that?

[Dempsey1238]

They stood over there foes apound a knockout. We know it is "WRONG" to stand over them apound a knockdown. If it was right, you sure know Tyson would have been doing what Dempsey did.

They stood over each other like CAVEMEN. And we know the word Caveman means primitive. I prove my point.

[janitor]

I submit that no offensive fighter in Dempseys weight class has ever matched him in terms of-

Infighting ability

Head movment

Footwork

There has never been a heavyweight like Dempsey just like there has never been a heavyweight like Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

You are looking at the absolute pinacle of style.

[robert ungurean]

Whoever thinks these two men are under developed or primitive no nothing about boxing.

[Street Lethal]

It doesn't look primitive to me.

[Irish Steel]

Neither were. Dempsey Brought the modern boxing style to the table IMO.

[Vanboxingfan]

Obviously Firpo's a huge fan of the no 3 knock down rule. Interesting I not only watched a couple of good boxing matches, I ended up learning a language.

sayonara

[Boilermaker]

Interestingly, in the first round, I counted Tunney throwing roughly 60 punches (I probably missed close to half due to the poor quality of film). Many of these were not just pity paty punches but good hard lefts and rights. I dont read stats too much, but this would seem to make him a little busy by modern standards wouldnt it?

[achillesthegreat]

Neither were. Dempsey Brought the modern boxing style to the table IMO.
With heavyweights I would say he was the start of modern boxing. Willard, Johnson, Jeffries etc helped mould it but they came from a different era. I still think they could compete because they have two arms and legs, along with some good moves but they were in a slighty different game. Dempsey on the other hand was a 12-15 round fighter.

I'm not sure about the small guys. I'd need to think who was around his time or before him.

[Street Lethal]

With heavyweights I would say he was the start of modern boxing. Willard, Johnson, Jeffries etc helped mould it but they came from a different era. I still think they could compete because they have two arms and legs, along with some good moves but they were in a slighty different game. Dempsey on the other hand was a 12-15 round fighter.

I'm not sure about the small guys. I'd need to think who was around his time or before him.

I agree. I think Johnson was one of the best of the old style. Dempsey was something new. Up on his toes, bobbing and weaving, coming forward. It would have been interesting to see Johnson and Dempsey fight. That would have been a real passing of the torch.

[joe33]

Its becasue they were white,why dont people just admit that,after having black americans dominate the heavy weight scene for so long,it seems to me thats the reason,whites cant jump or fight or run or so it has been in the last few decades,but of coures thats crap,but it is easily to believe that crap.

[Street Lethal]

And color has something to do with all of this. A very significant, traditionally apt portion of the population were basically forced to fight with their hands tied behidn their backs.


What if in todays heavyweight climate, all the euro/soviet fighters were treated like 2nd class citizens and denied their shots... would you have alot of respect for the north american champ?

This is a fair point. But we are talking about their in-ring performance. Politics are important, but the thread is a technical one. Of course, the other guy brought it up and you were just responding, so don't take this as a criticism of you per se.

[Ezzard]

Dempsey brought lower weight class tactics and moves to the Heavyweights. He revolutionised boxing.

[janitor]

With heavyweights I would say he was the start of modern boxing.

I don't think that either of them represented anything new stylisticaly if you take into acount the lower weight classes.

Benny Leonard was around before either of them.

Mike Gibbons was verry much the prototype for Gene Tunney.

Terry McGovern was to my mind the pioneer of Jack Dempseys style. Nobody had seen anything like it when he came allong. Dempsey became the first sporting megastar by being the heavyweight Terry McGovern.

When Dempsey first came along many people described him as a bigger version of Jack Dillon. It would be verry interesting to see some footage of Dillon.

We can go back further and consider guys like Sam Langford, Joe Gams and even George Dixon.

[godking]

I submit that no offensive fighter in Dempseys weight class has ever matched him in terms of-

Infighting ability

Head movment

Footwork

There has never been a heavyweight like Dempsey just like there has never been a heavyweight like Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

You are looking at the absolute pinacle of style.Peak Tyson matched Dempsey in footwork and head movement.

[achillesthegreat]

I don't think that either of them represented anything new stylisticaly if you take into acount the lower weight classes.

Benny Leonard was around before either of them.

Mike Gibbons was verry much the prototype for Gene Tunney.

Terry McGovern was to my mind the pioneer of Jack Dempseys style. Nobody had seen anything like it when he came allong. Dempsey became the first sporting megastar by being the heavyweight Terry McGovern.

When Dempsey first came along many people described him as a bigger version of Jack Dillon. It would be verry interesting to see some footage of Dillon.

We can go back further and consider guys like Sam Langford, Joe Gams and even George Dixon.
Not necessarily stylistically. The major thing is they became regular 12-15 round fighters. When you are fighting endless rounds it is a different ball game.

Guys like McGovern and Corbett obviously paved the way for guys like Tunney and Dempsey.

Ultimately I believe every era has effective fighters, timeless fighters, absolute shit etc Take todays heavyweight division, you go everything.

[janitor]

Peak Tyson matched Dempsey in footwork and head movement.

I don't think that he quite did.

IMHO he had the same level of talent but never really fleshed out these aspects of hi game as Dempsey did.

He was not up on his toes and circling for an opening like Dempsey.

His head movment was awsome but not quite as slick and unpredictable as Dempseys.



Now give Tyson a few more years of motivation after Spinks to develop his skills and all bets are off.

[janitor]

Not necessarily stylistically. The major thing is they became regular 12-15 round fighters. When you are fighting endless rounds it is a different ball game.

Guys like McGovern and Corbett obviously paved the way for guys like Tunney and Dempsey.

Ultimately I believe every era has effective fighters, timeless fighters, absolute shit etc Take todays heavyweight division, you go everything.

This is how I see it.

I do however think that the styels of Dempsey and Tunney did not originate with them. There were fighters before the 15 round era who functioned in a verry similar way.

[achillesthegreat]

This is how I see it.

I do however think that the styels of Dempsey and Tunney did not originate with them. There were fighters before the 15 round era who functioned in a verry similar way.
The styles definitely didn't originate with them. Nor did particular skillsets...

...BUT I do believe technique improved.

Man is continously trying to find the most efficient and effective method to deal with what is at hand.

Where as Corbett and Tunney may be grouped into the same style, I would not say Corbett is as technically sound as Gene!

[janitor]

[quote=Kute]I don't even want to think about what Mike Tyson would have done to the clods Dempsey fought.


The clods Dempsey fought were actualy prety good.


You cn't critique Mike Tyson on anything but dedication after his title reign.


That should have been the period when he perfected his technique.

[Bokaj]

Thanks for supplying the footage!

They don't look primitive, they look good. Their guards are a little bit suspect though, and I would say that the movement and punching in for example FOTC are sharper that it is in the Dempsey-Tunney fight, but Tunney does fight well.

The young and trim Dempsey look very sharp and dangerous, but his opponents do not. For example Willard and Firpo looks crude and quite primitive too me, and they for sure wouldn't be competitive at elite level today. But when you see young Dempsey you can appreciate the admiration he gets still today. A formidable fighter. Too bad he ducked fighters and didn't defend more frequently.

[SuzieQ49]

Infighting ability

Head movment

Footwork

There has never been a heavyweight like Dempsey just like there has never been a heavyweight like Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

You are looking at the absolute pinacle of style.



Ill give you footwork, and head movement, but i defintley disagree on the infighting. I also think Liston is belongs on there with ali louis as one of the pinnacle's of style.

[SuzieQ49]

The only heavyweights of those era on film that had Correct punching technique, right amount of leverage in there punches, perfect body torque, straightness.......were Jack Dempsey who basically modernized it. Other close 2nds were Schmeling, Sharkey.


Tunney does not belong on there. He had very straight punches, but he had no body torque, didnt get any leverage or body weight into his punches he essentially threw arm punches.

[red cobra]

No less than Muhammad Ali, when watching vintage boxing films of the great heavyweight champions of the past on a special edition of Wide World of Sports back in the mid seventies made the observation that Gene Tunney was like a modern day boxer, and looked far more sophisticated than the other champions they were viewing. Of course Ali was a bit contemptuous of most of the champions, like Carnera, Baer, even Louis and Marciano, though he seemed to be more fair than expected. He nonetheless, of course, saw himself winning over all of them. He made the point repeatedly about Tunney looking like a modern day boxer in terms of his technique and footwork, hand speed and such against Dempsey. Of course things have evolved in boxing since those early days, but mainly training techniques and not the basics of the sport. If Dempsey had been around in later decades, I'm sure he would have benefitted from modern training methods and would have been a hellion to any era's heavyweights. As for Tunney, he was a pioneer of defensive boxing, and it's obvious that he wasn't the least bit 'primitive".

[ChrisPontius]

No less than Muhammad Ali, when watching vintage boxing films of the great heavyweight champions of the past on a special edition of Wide World of Sports back in the mid seventies made the observation that Gene Tunney was like a modern day boxer, and looked far more sophisticated than the other champions they were viewing. Of course Ali was a bit contemptuous of most of the champions, like Carnera, Baer, even Louis and Marciano, though he seemed to be more fair than expected. He nonetheless, of course, saw himself winning over all of them. He made the point repeatedly about Tunney looking like a modern day boxer in terms of his technique and footwork, hand speed and such against Dempsey. Of course things have evolved in boxing since those early days, but mainly training techniques and not the basics of the sport. If Dempsey had been around in later decades, I'm sure he would have benefitted from modern training methods and would have been a hellion to any era's heavyweights. As for Tunney, he was a pioneer of defensive boxing, and it's obvious that he wasn't the least bit 'primitive".

I think he saw himself when he watched Tunney fighting. How could he not like that. :D

[dpw417]

Bernard Hopkins recently commented in a press conference that he felt older fighters such as Robinson,Louis, and Ali (those he mentioned) were actually the better athletes due to the fact that moderns have more training advantages...through equipment, nutrition, etc.

[Rico Spadafora]

If you think Dempsey & Tunney are primitive then what would you call Jack Johnson?

[dmt]

I think we all miss cross trainer somewhat- he was a great, intelligent poster, funny too- wander if hell be back

[red cobra]

I think he saw himself when he watched Tunney fighting. How could he not like that. :D
Despite his (Ali's) high praise of Tunney, which contrasted sharply with his evaluation of all the other champions, he did say that due to their similarity in styles, plus his own superior size, that Tunney would be rather easy for him to beat. I tend to agree with that, and I think an Ali-Tunney fight may have resembled The Ali-Ellis fight somewhat, with the possibility that Tunney may have lasted the distance in a losing effort.