How would Schmeling do in the 70's?

[redrooster]

One of the best in all of boxing.

How does Max fare vs. the following:

Frazier

Ali

Foreman

Young

Norton

Bugner

Lyle

Ledoux

Holmes

Spinkx

I hate to imagine the job slippery Young would do on the stiff, robotic Schmeling.

[Dempsey1238]

Dont see him beating Frazier, Ali or Foreman, but I think he can beat the Lyles, Shavers, Bugners, and Nortons of the heavyweights.
I think he be in the middle pack about, and could perhaps even score a upset among the super elite(As Schmeling did vs Louis).

[Maxmomer]

He would beat everybody on that list.






Except for Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Young and Holmes. And quite possibly Norton and Lyle.

[Holmes' Jab]

Loses to:

Ali

Frazier

Holmes

He beats:

Neon Leon

Bugner

Norton

Foreman

Lyle

Ledoux

[McGrain]

I wonder if Schmeling might not be the man to seriously trouble a young Holmes. He certainly had the right hand for it.

[mr. magoo]

Frankly, I think that if Schmeling were fighting during the 1970's, he would have been better off dropping down to lightheavyweight and competing against the likes of Bob Foster, Saad Muhammad, and John Conteh.

I think Schmeling was truly a great fighter, but he'd be a little out of his league in the heavyweight picture of the 70's. Too many greats packed into one era. Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Norton and Holmes would all have my vote to beat him rather handely. The rest of the crue, such as Quarry, Lyle, Shavers, Young and Ellis, would still be dangerous propositions, though he might have beaten some of them.

[Loewe]

One of the best in all of boxing.

How does Max fare vs. the following:

Frazier

Ali

Foreman

Young

Norton

Bugner

Lyle

Ledoux

Holmes

Spinkx

I hate to imagine the job slippery Young would do on the stiff, robotic Schmeling.

Well, i think he would beat them all with the exception of Ali and Frazier.

[janitor]

Frankly, I think that if Schmeling were fighting during the 1970's, he would have been better off dropping down to lightheavyweight and competing against the likes of Bob Foster, Saad Muhammad, and John Conteh.


I dont think he could have.

Schmelings last fight at light heavyweight was against Gypsie Daniels aged 22 and the problems he had making weight likley contributed to the outcome of the fight.

By the time he was coming into his best he would have had to contest at heavyweight.

[Ezzard]

I wonder if Schmeling might not be the man to seriously trouble a young Holmes. He certainly had the right hand for it.

Exactly what i was thinking

[mr. magoo]

I dont think he could have.

Schmelings last fight at light heavyweight was against Gypsie Daniels aged 22 and the problems he had making weight likley contributed to the outcome of the fight.

By the time he was coming into his best he would have had to contest at heavyweight.

Under the right training circumstances, he might have had better success maintaining a lower weight. Spinks was 6'3", had a larger frame than Schmeling, yet he remained at lightheavyweight until around 29 years of age. The only reason he gained weight, was by choice to go after the HW title.

[janitor]

Under the right training circumstances, he might have had better success maintaining a lower weight. Spinks was 6'3", had a larger frame than Schmeling, yet he remained at lightheavyweight until around 29 years of age.

Schmeling was actualy a prety thickly set fighter even for a heavyweight. Compare the tale of the tape of his chest to Riddick Bowes if you dont believe me.

I dont think he would have been able to stay under 175 into his prime as he was probably doing prety much anything that would have been alowed in the 70s as it was.

[PowerPuncher]

Lets see:

Ali - too big and good, will beat Schmelling to the punch and outworks him

Holmes - Schmelling gets outjabbed all night

Foreman - if Max Baer is too big and strong for
Schmelling then surely Foreman would be too

Frazier - I see him countering and hurting Joe early but not being able to handle the pressure and strength from Frazier

Norton - the man who beat Ali versus the man who beat Louis. Ken did very well against smaller fighters and boxer types, I see this as a close call going the distance

Spinks - he dominates Neon Leon

Lyle - surely too much boxing savy for Lyle but Lyle was a beast of a man with a huge size advantage here. Again close call with Max being a slight favourate

Shavers - expect Schmelling to win but Shavers particularly against the smaller Schmelling has a good chance of an early KO, if Schmelling makes it out the early rounds he wins

Quarey - Schmelling UD too much class

Bugner - easy UD

Young - a tough call, Young beat Foreman and arguably beat Norton and Ali. How would Schmelling cope with his hit and move style? I'd favour Schmelling marginally but a 60-40 or 50-50, hard to call

I highly rate Schmelling but I'm not sure he matches up too well stylistically with this group, I'm sure he'd win some of the close calls but would lose a few too

[abraq]

I think Schmeling was a natural heavyweight and it would have been difficult for him to make weight as a LHW.

Regarding using 70's advances to make weight for LHW, it would have been wiser for him to use the same advances to gain functional weight as a HW. He certainly could have gained some pounds but, IMO, still would have been lighter than the bigger HWs of the 70's.

As far as the given list is concerned, here is how I feel the results would have worked out for a 70's Scmeling:

Frazier : Loss. Hard fought and bloody late stoppage.

Ali : Loss. If Ali goes all out, it would result in a late stoppage. Otherwise, it would go to a decision.

Foreman - Loss. KO within 5 rounds.

Young - Loss. Decision.

Norton - Loss. Late stoppage or decision. But Max would have his moments too.

Bugner - Difficult to say. If Bugner fought as he usually did, Max would win a decision. But Joe had the potential to turn the tables.

Lyle - Would be competitive. Could go either way.

Ledoux - Easy win for Schmeling. Mid-late round kayo or decision.

Holmes - Loss. Mid-late round stoppage most likely. But here too, Max would have his moments.

Spink - Win. Max stops Leon after some initial diofficult moments.

[ChrisPontius]

Schmeling was actualy a prety thickly set fighter even for a heavyweight. Compare the tale of the tape of his chest to Riddick Bowes if you dont believe me.


Which goes to show you how much of a joke those tale of the tape measurements are. Everyone knows Max is nowhere near Riddick's size and using tale of the tape measurements to show that cruiserweights are around the same size as superheavies, "potentially", is pretty pathetic.

[janitor]

Which goes to show you how much of a joke those tale of the tape measurements are. Everyone knows Max is nowhere near Riddick's size and using tale of the tape measurements to show that cruiserweights are around the same size as superheavies, "potentially", is pretty pathetic.

Obviously I was not trying to argue that he was as big as Riddick Bowe. I used the measurment to illustrate that he was much more thick set than Bob Foster.

As for the tale of the tape measurments being a joke what exactly is the problem, were the tape measures shorter back then?

[ChrisPontius]

As for the tale of the tape measurments being a joke what exactly is the problem, were the tape measures shorter back then?

Not just back then, those measurements are never 100% trustful. Ali's reach has been measured from 79" to 84" depending on your source. That wasn't my point however. I thought you were digging up the old argument of how Bowe, Lewis etc were just a tad bigger than those 190lbs fighters and that they could carry the weight without losses, etc.

[janitor]

Not just back then, those measurements are never 100% trustful. Ali's reach has been measured from 79" to 84" depending on your source. That wasn't my point however. I thought you were digging up the old argument of how Bowe, Lewis etc were just a tad bigger than those 190lbs fighters and that they could carry the weight without losses, etc.

I think that Schmeling had the tale of the tape of a rangy cruiserweight like Holyfield and might have had the frame to carry 210 lbs in the ironpumping era.

[Mendoza]

How would Schmeling in the 1970's?

I think he'd do well enough. Say better than Bobbick, but not quite as good as Norton.

[Boilermaker]

Schmelling in the 70s is an interesting thought.

He would start of campaining in Germany and Europe where he would beat most fighters and pretty much become the top European Heavyweight, by about 1969.

This leaves him with two big fights against two top contenders. First he goes to america to fight one of the best contenders of the time, say Jerry Quarry. THis is very much like the Johnny Risko fight and Max wins in the 9th when Jerry Cant answer the bell. He then fights Joe Frazier, who is considered by some to be the best fighter in the world and who would have an argument as the best in the world. Max wins on points over 15 rounds in a fight similar to the Paulino Uzcudin fight. In the next years he fights a top contender in Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy was considered one of the best on his day, but was a little inconsistent and ended up fouling out in the 4th, the same way that Sharkey did. Schmelling doesnt fight again until 1973 about 12 months later when he matches up with a top contender in George Chuvalo. George was one of the best around and was known to have a rock iron jaw, having never been knocked out at this point in his career, just like Young Stribling. Max Schmelling would stop him in the 15th. Max would earn a portion of the World title with this victory. Shcmelling makes his first defence against a very good fighter who was better at lesser weights in bob Foster and he hands Foster his first loss at heavyweight very similar to the Walker fight that ended by TKO in the 8th.

This left a dream match up in 1973 when he was matched against the big hitting american George Foreman. Foreman is an all time great, just like Max Baer and like Baer he wins by TKO in the 10th against Schmelling in what would be his best performance.

In Joe Frazier he fights the man who is considered to be best fighter in the world at the time or close to it, anyway. In 1974, Max has his first fight and loses it to a decent but nothing special fighter Buster Mathis on points over 10. He then is rematched later in the year with Frazier but only manages a draw.

In 1975, Max, after beating the German national champion, rematches Mathis and knocks him out in 9. He then gives Frazier a shot at a third match and actually beats him in 12 to ensure 2-0-1 Trilogy with Frazier.

In 1976, he is matched as the underdog with the USA's brightest young fighter in Larry Holmes. Holmes would later become one of the top 2 all time greats in most peoples heavyweight lists, sharing that position with JOe Lous!. Schmelling proved too good for Holmes by knocking him out in the 12th. Something that noone else would ever do to Holmes until the invincible young atg heavyweight Mick Tyson did it (like marciano) well over a decade later. Meanwhile, in 1976 Schmelling could not get a rematch with Foreman who had just been upset by the Cinderalla Man Jimmy Young. Jimmy Young chose instead to fight Larry Holmes and was knocked out. Larry then fought Max Schmelling in 1978. But by this time, Germany had been taken over the russians. They were threatening Max's whole family and were trying to take over the world with communism and this was seen as a communist vs free world fight of the century. Max had some wins against some decent fighters from Germany in preparation for this fight, but really the political pressure was massive. Max was getting old by this time and Larry Holmes slaughtered him in his most impressive victory ever. Holmes would go on to Knock out George foreman and beat every other challenger in his era.

In 1980 Schmelling did come back to fight the german champion, but he spent 1980 to 1986 visiting siberian POW camps until the cold war finished. In 1987, he would attempt a comeback and despite beating a couple of german fighters would lose his last two fights and retire.

Interestingly, in this scenario, Muhammed Ali would have never returned after retiring in 1969 and would eventually be considered as having a chin which would not stand up to the modern super heavy punches (just like Gene Tunney).

Now where would this rate Schmelling in the 70s and overall? I am not so sure and will need to have a think, but with a series win over Frazier, Loss to Foreman and a kO victory over Louis. I think he would probably have an argument as the best of the 70s. You would have to think that this would mean a top 10 atg position in most lists and top 5 in some. Realistically, he probably would rank just outside the top 10 atgs on that form.

[Loewe]

Schmelling in the 70s is an interesting thought.

He would start of campaining in Germany and Europe where he would beat most fighters and pretty much become the top European Heavyweight, by about 1969.

This leaves him with two big fights against two top contenders. First he goes to america to fight one of the best contenders of the time, say Jerry Quarry. THis is very much like the Johnny Risko fight and Max wins in the 9th when Jerry Cant answer the bell. He then fights Joe Frazier, who is considered by some to be the best fighter in the world and who would have an argument as the best in the world. Max wins on points over 15 rounds in a fight similar to the Paulino Uzcudin fight. In the next years he fights a top contender in Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy was considered one of the best on his day, but was a little inconsistent and ended up fouling out in the 4th, the same way that Sharkey did. Schmelling doesnt fight again until 1973 about 12 months later when he matches up with a top contender in George Chuvalo. George was one of the best around and was known to have a rock iron jaw, having never been knocked out at this point in his career, just like Young Stribling. Max Schmelling would stop him in the 15th. Max would earn a portion of the World title with this victory. Shcmelling makes his first defence against a very good fighter who was better at lesser weights in bob Foster and he hands Foster his first loss at heavyweight very similar to the Walker fight that ended by TKO in the 8th.

This left a dream match up in 1973 when he was matched against the big hitting american George Foreman. Foreman is an all time great, just like Max Baer and like Baer he wins by TKO in the 10th against Schmelling in what would be his best performance.

In Joe Frazier he fights the man who is considered to be best fighter in the world at the time or close to it, anyway. In 1974, Max has his first fight and loses it to a decent but nothing special fighter Buster Mathis on points over 10. He then is rematched later in the year with Frazier but only manages a draw.

In 1975, Max, after beating the German national champion, rematches Mathis and knocks him out in 9. He then gives Frazier a shot at a third match and actually beats him in 12 to ensure 2-0-1 Trilogy with Frazier.

In 1976, he is matched as the underdog with the USA's brightest young fighter in Larry Holmes. Holmes would later become one of the top 2 all time greats in most peoples heavyweight lists, sharing that position with JOe Lous!. Schmelling proved too good for Holmes by knocking him out in the 12th. Something that noone else would ever do to Holmes until the invincible young atg heavyweight Mick Tyson did it (like marciano) well over a decade later. Meanwhile, in 1976 Schmelling could not get a rematch with Foreman who had just been upset by the Cinderalla Man Jimmy Young. Jimmy Young chose instead to fight Larry Holmes and was knocked out. Larry then fought Max Schmelling in 1978. But by this time, Germany had been taken over the russians. They were threatening Max's whole family and were trying to take over the world with communism and this was seen as a communist vs free world fight of the century. Max had some wins against some decent fighters from Germany in preparation for this fight, but really the political pressure was massive. Max was getting old by this time and Larry Holmes slaughtered him in his most impressive victory ever. Holmes would go on to Knock out George foreman and beat every other challenger in his era.

In 1980 Schmelling did come back to fight the german champion, but he spent 1980 to 1986 visiting siberian POW camps until the cold war finished. In 1987, he would attempt a comeback and despite beating a couple of german fighters would lose his last two fights and retire.

Interestingly, in this scenario, Muhammed Ali would have never returned after retiring in 1969 and would eventually be considered as having a chin which would not stand up to the modern super heavy punches (just like Gene Tunney).

Now where would this rate Schmelling in the 70s and overall? I am not so sure and will need to have a think, but with a series win over Frazier, Loss to Foreman and a kO victory over Louis. I think he would probably have an argument as the best of the 70s. You would have to think that this would mean a top 10 atg position in most lists and top 5 in some. Realistically, he probably would rank just outside the top 10 atgs on that form.

Wow, great read. Thank you!
Well, i think he would rank Top5. Right now i have him at 14. Imo the 30s are underrated as hw era.

[Boilermaker]

Wow, great read. Thank you!
Well, i think he would rank Top5. Right now i have him at 14. Imo the 30s are underrated as hw era.

I have always probably agreed with the notion that Schmelling was a little overated, but after doing that analysis to the 70s I think it gives an appreciation of just how good he really was in his time. Certainly he is a lot better than i have ever thought.

[Luigi1985]

Schmeling fought in an underrated HW- era, the 70s were definitely one of the best, but surely also the most overrated one. IMO Schmeling could have been champ, he´s better than the likes of Ellis, Norton, Lyle, etc. I would also favour him against Foreman, Ali would beat him IMO and Frazier, too.

[ChrisPontius]

Schmelling in the 70s is an interesting thought.

He would start of campaining in Germany and Europe where he would beat most fighters and pretty much become the top European Heavyweight, by about 1969.

This leaves him with two big fights against two top contenders. First he goes to america to fight one of the best contenders of the time, say Jerry Quarry. THis is very much like the Johnny Risko fight and Max wins in the 9th when Jerry Cant answer the bell. He then fights Joe Frazier, who is considered by some to be the best fighter in the world and who would have an argument as the best in the world. Max wins on points over 15 rounds in a fight similar to the Paulino Uzcudin fight. In the next years he fights a top contender in Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy was considered one of the best on his day, but was a little inconsistent and ended up fouling out in the 4th, the same way that Sharkey did. Schmelling doesnt fight again until 1973 about 12 months later when he matches up with a top contender in George Chuvalo. George was one of the best around and was known to have a rock iron jaw, having never been knocked out at this point in his career, just like Young Stribling. Max Schmelling would stop him in the 15th. Max would earn a portion of the World title with this victory. Shcmelling makes his first defence against a very good fighter who was better at lesser weights in bob Foster and he hands Foster his first loss at heavyweight very similar to the Walker fight that ended by TKO in the 8th.

This left a dream match up in 1973 when he was matched against the big hitting american George Foreman. Foreman is an all time great, just like Max Baer and like Baer he wins by TKO in the 10th against Schmelling in what would be his best performance.

In Joe Frazier he fights the man who is considered to be best fighter in the world at the time or close to it, anyway. In 1974, Max has his first fight and loses it to a decent but nothing special fighter Buster Mathis on points over 10. He then is rematched later in the year with Frazier but only manages a draw.

In 1975, Max, after beating the German national champion, rematches Mathis and knocks him out in 9. He then gives Frazier a shot at a third match and actually beats him in 12 to ensure 2-0-1 Trilogy with Frazier.

In 1976, he is matched as the underdog with the USA's brightest young fighter in Larry Holmes. Holmes would later become one of the top 2 all time greats in most peoples heavyweight lists, sharing that position with JOe Lous!. Schmelling proved too good for Holmes by knocking him out in the 12th. Something that noone else would ever do to Holmes until the invincible young atg heavyweight Mick Tyson did it (like marciano) well over a decade later. Meanwhile, in 1976 Schmelling could not get a rematch with Foreman who had just been upset by the Cinderalla Man Jimmy Young. Jimmy Young chose instead to fight Larry Holmes and was knocked out. Larry then fought Max Schmelling in 1978. But by this time, Germany had been taken over the russians. They were threatening Max's whole family and were trying to take over the world with communism and this was seen as a communist vs free world fight of the century. Max had some wins against some decent fighters from Germany in preparation for this fight, but really the political pressure was massive. Max was getting old by this time and Larry Holmes slaughtered him in his most impressive victory ever. Holmes would go on to Knock out George foreman and beat every other challenger in his era.

In 1980 Schmelling did come back to fight the german champion, but he spent 1980 to 1986 visiting siberian POW camps until the cold war finished. In 1987, he would attempt a comeback and despite beating a couple of german fighters would lose his last two fights and retire.

Interestingly, in this scenario, Muhammed Ali would have never returned after retiring in 1969 and would eventually be considered as having a chin which would not stand up to the modern super heavy punches (just like Gene Tunney).

Now where would this rate Schmelling in the 70s and overall? I am not so sure and will need to have a think, but with a series win over Frazier, Loss to Foreman and a kO victory over Louis. I think he would probably have an argument as the best of the 70s. You would have to think that this would mean a top 10 atg position in most lists and top 5 in some. Realistically, he probably would rank just outside the top 10 atgs on that form.

I don't see Schmeling beating Frazier in '69/'70. Frazier is no Uczudun. I think his pressure gets to the German sooner or later.


And why would Ali not make his comeback? I know you like Schmeling, but preventing the Vietnam war would be one step too high even for him. Also, Ali took punches from Liston with no problem so i don't think the Tunney analogy goes.

[janitor]

Just a minor point but if Schmeling had come allong in the 1970s he would have been born in East Germany and would never have been alowed to turn profesional.

In this scenario he likley ends up as an all time great amateur boxer and possible olympic gold medalist.

In fact due to boundary changes the young Schmeling might have been born in Poland!

[Loewe]

Just a minor point but if Schmeling had come allong in the 1970s he would have been born in East Germany and would never have been alowed to turn profesional.

In this scenario he likley ends up as an all time great amateur boxer and possible olympic gold medalist.

In fact due to boundary changes the young Schmeling might have been born in Poland!
True. But i think we can assume that his family was one of the many who fled the red army and came to West Germany. The families of all my 4 grandparents did so for example - losing parents, siblings and all they had on the way.

[JIm Broughton]

I think magoo is right on the money. Too many good big men in the 70's. Max would be competitive for sure but has little chance of becoming champion.

[janitor]

How would Schmeling in the 1970's?

I think he'd do well enough. Say better than Bobbick, but not quite as good as Norton.

Schmeling could take Bobbick and Norton in the same night.

[Boilermaker]

I don't see Schmeling beating Frazier in '69/'70. Frazier is no Uczudun. I think his pressure gets to the German sooner or later.


Me too, but I am sure that if we both were around in maxs time, we would have thought that Uczudun would get to him also, but he didnt. Uczudun had an arguable claim as the best fighter at one point in time, like Frazier. He probably ranks about 3rd or so in his era, which is about where Frazier ranks. In its time, the wins were similar.




And why would Ali not make his comeback? I know you like Schmeling, but preventing the Vietnam war would be one step too high even for him. Also, Ali took punches from Liston with no problem so i don't think the Tunney analogy goes.

Because Russia were a much bigger threat than the Vietnamese and he decided to fight them but was injured in battle? or maybe because it just fitted in better with schmelling's career since ali was the world's best like tunney when Max burst on the scene, but he retired as unbeaten champion and never returned.

But Dempsey tested Tunney just as much and Tunney had been dropped less times than Ali had. Like Dempsey, Liston was old. Ali was thought to have a poor chin. For proof, look at an article which should be online called how i would have clobbered Clay, written by Joe Louis. Very interesting read, and imo close to proof of why Ali would have won Ali-Louis I. Without the second career, i dont think Ali is the no 1 fighter ever, because his chin is such a question mark and i would have never guessed it was as good as it was. Tunney is in a similar position, we all doubt his chin, but there is no evidence really that his chin is not every bit as good as Ali's. In fact, Tunney showed more heart and chin than Clay. (only because of circumstances and a longer career). He got up and came back from a bigger knockdown puncher than Clay ever did.

Without the second career, Ali has the same questionable chin as Tunney does.