Tony Canzoneri as a pound-for-pound great

[Manassa]

He rates #15 on my list, and deservedly so. A very overlooked fighter - check this out:

- Starts career as a bantamweight, goes 28-0-3 before first loss

- Two years into career, draws with vastly more experienced Hall of Famer Charles Taylor for bantamweight title

- Loses to Taylor, but then beats him in the same year

- Same year still; beats Hall of Famer Johnny Dundee

- Beats Hall of Famer Benny Bass

- Wins lightweight title in devastating fashion off Al Singer

- Wins junior welterweight title from Hall of Famer Kid Berg

- Beats Bass again

- Beats Berg again

- Beats Hall of Famer Kid Chocolate

- Beats Hall of Famer Billy Petrolle

- Regains a version of the 140lbs title from Battling Shaw

- Loses two close decision to Barney Ross

- Beats 130lbs champion Frankie Klick (one of four victories over him)

- Beats Chocolate again

- Beats Hall of Famer Baby Arizmendi

- Beats Hall of Famer Lou Ambers, regains lightweight title

- Beats Hall of Famer Jimmy McLarnin

- Beats former 140lbs champion Johnny Jadick

That's nine Hall of Famers Canzoneri beat. Of course, he lost to some of them as well, but that was bound to happen within a schedule as demanding as his (in 1927, for example, he fought twenty times). Canzoneri fought for titles ranging from bantamweight to junior welterweight, winning the featherweight, lightweight and junior welterweight world championships.

I just think Canzoneri deserves a bit more recognition. As a world bantamweight title challenger, his lightweight achievement of two title reigns and five defences, his featherweight titles and one defence, and two defences of a junior welterweight title, plus beating a great welterweight in McLarnin, Canzoneri is a remarkable and stand-out fighter of his generation.

[Dempsey1238]

I have Canzi in the top 7. Only Greb, Fitz, Ross, Armstrong, Walker, and maybe Ezzard Charles perhaps rank over Canzi. Thinking about it, Cazi could be in the top 6th of all time.

[OLD FOGEY]

I have Canzi in the top 7. Only Greb, Fitz, Ross, Armstrong, Walker, and maybe Ezzard Charles perhaps rank over Canzi. Thinking about it, Cazi could be in the top 6th of all time.

What about Robinson?

[Dempsey1238]

Well Robinson never jump up as high in weight as the guys above mention, and win. He did it one time vs Maxie, and lost. Even if he was in the lead before he thown in the towel. He never attempted to do it again. Guys like Fitz, Walker, Greb, and Charles jump all the way up to heavyweight from welter or middleweight and beating the top contenders or in the case of Fitz or Charles, winning the title. Cani made a similer jump in welterweight. Also holding the 3 titles to Robinson's 2, makes Cani a bit higher on my list. These guys are the true pound for pounders.

[Street Lethal]

He rates #15 on my list, and deservedly so. A very overlooked fighter - check this out:

- Starts career as a bantamweight, goes 28-0-3 before first loss

- Two years into career, draws with vastly more experienced Hall of Famer Charles Taylor for bantamweight title

- Loses to Taylor, but then beats him in the same year

- Same year still; beats Hall of Famer Johnny Dundee

- Beats Hall of Famer Benny Bass

- Wins lightweight title in devastating fashion off Al Singer

- Wins junior welterweight title from Hall of Famer Kid Berg

- Beats Bass again

- Beats Berg again

- Beats Hall of Famer Kid Chocolate

- Beats Hall of Famer Billy Petrolle

- Regains a version of the 140lbs title from Battling Shaw

- Loses two close decision to Barney Ross

- Beats 130lbs champion Frankie Klick (one of four victories over him)

- Beats Chocolate again

- Beats Hall of Famer Baby Arizmendi

- Beats Hall of Famer Lou Ambers, regains lightweight title

- Beats Hall of Famer Jimmy McLarnin

- Beats former 140lbs champion Johnny Jadick

That's nine Hall of Famers Canzoneri beat. Of course, he lost to some of them as well, but that was bound to happen within a schedule as demanding as his (in 1927, for example, he fought twenty times). Canzoneri fought for titles ranging from bantamweight to junior welterweight, winning the featherweight, lightweight and junior welterweight world championships.

I just think Canzoneri deserves a bit more recognition. As a world bantamweight title challenger, his lightweight achievement of two title reigns and five defences, his featherweight titles and one defence, and two defences of a junior welterweight title, plus beating a great welterweight in McLarnin, Canzoneri is a remarkable and stand-out fighter of his generation.

I agree. Good review of the facts. Damned impressive record. I have seen footage of this man box. He was very talented and tough as nails.

[brownpimp88]

canzoneri and arguello should both rank above pep, they were lineal featherweight champs that proved to be worldclass at 135/140. Canzoneri is top 10 of all times at lightweight, can pep say this, nope.

[Sweet Pea]

#21 for me. It's certainly arguable that he should be higher.

[sweet_scientist]

canzoneri and arguello should both rank above pep, they were lineal featherweight champs that proved to be worldclass at 135/140. Canzoneri is top 10 of all times at lightweight, can pep say this, nope.

If moving up the weights succesfully is your criteria for p4p greatness then sure they should. If in the ring dominance, h2h ability, level of opposition, consistency etc. are involved, it becomes more questionable.

No doubt Canzoneri has some great scalps to his name and did fight competitively with greats above his natural weight which says a lot for him.

Brownpimp, let me ask you this, do you have your own p4p list? You always seem keen on commenting on others' and telling us where certain fighters should be placed and who should be above who. I'd like to see your list if you have one.

[Lobotomy]

Each time I look at how efficiently Canzi dropped and decisioned the energetic Ambers to recapture the LW Title in 1935, I wonder how well he might have done against the version of Armstrong that Ambers later put through hell before Hank was able to join Fitz, Canzi and Ross as triple crown champions. Tony peaked when he prevented Billy Petrolle from ever becoming a champion in 1932, and it may have been fortunate for Barney Ross that he wasn't Canzi's challenger on that particular evening.

Canzi sometimes blew hot and cold, as might be expected of anybody who stepped into the ring 175 times. But he was not stopped in his first 174 efforts, and at his absolute best, may have been a top five ATG.

[brownpimp88]

If moving up the weights succesfully is your criteria for p4p greatness then sure they should. If in the ring dominance, h2h ability, level of opposition, consistency etc. are involved, it becomes more questionable.

No doubt Canzoneri has some great scalps to his name and did fight competitively with greats above his natural weight which says a lot for him.

Brownpimp, let me ask you this, do you have your own p4p list? You always seem keen on commenting on others' and telling us where certain fighters should be placed and who should be above who. I'd like to see your list if you have one.
1. Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Louis
10.Carlos Monzon
11. Benny Leonard
12. Pernell Whitaker
13. Archie Moore
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Joe Gans
16. Mickey Walker
17. George Dixon
18. barbados Joe walcott
19. Barney Ross
20. Tony Canzoneri
21. Eder Jofre
22. Alexis Arguello
23. Willie Pep
24. Sandy Saddler
25. Carlos Ortiz
26. Gene Tunney
27. Kid Gavilan
28. Emile Griffith
29. Ike Williams
30. Jack Johnson
31. Julio Cesar Chavez
32. Charley Burley
33. Evander Holyfield
34. Larry Holmes
35. Dick Tiger
36. Michael Spinks
37. Roy Jones Jr.
38. Abe Attell
39. Jimmy Mclarnin
40. Panama Al Brown
41. Manuel Ortiz
42. Fighting Harada
43. Floyd Mayweather
44. Bernard Hopkins
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Thomas Hearns
47. Aaron Pryor
48. Ricardo Lopez
49. Sammy Angott
50. Vicente Saldivar

[Dempsey1238]

I dont see how some one would put Caniz outside of the top ten for winning 3 titles at 3 differnt weights. At the time very FEW fighters were able to pull that off.

[Sweet Pea]

I dont see how some one would put Caniz outside of the top ten for winning 3 titles at 3 differnt weights. At the time very FEW fighters were able to pull that off.You sure do like white fighters, don't you?

[brownpimp88]

You sure do like white fighters, don't you?
its a white fighter that beat black fighter kid chocolate.

[Sweet Pea]

its a white fighter that beat black fighter kid chocolate.I wasn't just making a reference to Canzoneri, I was making a reference to all of Dempsey's favorites and most of his highest rated fighters being white. He says he rates on how high they jump in weight, while for the most part, leaving out fighters with better resumes like Robinson. If so, why not include Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, etc if it's all about how you jump in weight?

And what I really don't get is, if it's about jumping in weight and resume combined, how the hell does he leave out someone like Langford and Walcott? I rank both above Fitzsimmons.

And how do you rate Ross above Armstrong? He makes a big deal out of Ross being better because he was the first one to actually win titles in 3 weight classes simultaneously. Not realizing that Ross jumped from 135 to 147, while Armstrong jumped from 126 to 147, while defending the WW title 19 times, and should've won 4 titles in 4 weight classes if not for the robbery against Garcia at MW. I think Armstrong's accomplishments clearly outshine Ross's.

[brownpimp88]

I wasn't just making a reference to Canzoneri, I was making a reference to all of Dempsey's favorites and most of his highest rated fighters being white. He says he rates on how high they jump in weight, while for the most part, leaving out fighters with better resumes like Robinson. If so, why not include Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, etc if it's all about how you jump in weight?

And what I really don't get is, if it's about jumping in weight and resume combined, how the hell does he leave out someone like Langford and Walcott? I rank both above Fitzsimmons.

And how do you rate Ross above Armstrong? He makes a big deal out of Ross being better because he was the first one to actually win titles in 3 weight classes simultaneously. Not realizing that Ross jumped from 135 to 147, while Armstrong jumped from 126 to 147, while defending the WW title 19 times, and should've won 4 titles in 4 weight classes if not for the robbery against Garcia at MW. I think Armstrong's accomplishments clearly outshine Ross's. i actually forgot to include fitzsimmons in my top 50, then again lol, which great did he beat? Corbett and gardner,:lol:. Jack 'nonpariel' dempsey really didnt beat anyone either.

I always felt whitaker could have pulled a henry armstrong at 160 if he would have fought quincy taylor or lonnie bradley. 1995-1997 is when that division went down the toilet, it would have been the perfect time for whitaker to do it.

[redrooster]

I dontlike fighters from the 30's. they're inferior

[Dempsey1238]

You sure do like white fighters, don't you?

And what about Joe Gans? Henry Armstrong?? Or Joe Fraizer? Or Joe Louis, Armstrong is in the top ten, Louis is number 1 rank heavyweights, These are my favor fighters on the black side, Just because I dont rank Jones Jr over Canzi, doesnt mean anything. Jones Jr doesnt even have HALF the record of Ross or Canzi.

[Sweet Pea]

And what about Joe Gans? Henry Armstrong?? Or Joe Fraizer? Or Joe Louis, Armstrong is in the top ten, Louis is number 1 rank heavyweights, These are my favor fighters on the black side, Just because I dont rank Jones Jr over Canzi, doesnt mean anything. Jones Jr doesnt even have HALF the record of Ross or Canzi.I explained this in my post to Brownpimp already. Read that. I don't rank Jones above Canzoneri either.

[rodney]

I really liked Canzoneri.
Especially his fight with Al "BummY Davis.
K.O. by in 3.

[Robbi]

He rates #15 on my list, and deservedly so. A very overlooked fighter - check this out:

- Starts career as a bantamweight, goes 28-0-3 before first loss

- Two years into career, draws with vastly more experienced Hall of Famer Charles Taylor for bantamweight title

- Loses to Taylor, but then beats him in the same year

- Same year still; beats Hall of Famer Johnny Dundee

- Beats Hall of Famer Benny Bass

- Wins lightweight title in devastating fashion off Al Singer

- Wins junior welterweight title from Hall of Famer Kid Berg

- Beats Bass again

- Beats Berg again

- Beats Hall of Famer Kid Chocolate

- Beats Hall of Famer Billy Petrolle

- Regains a version of the 140lbs title from Battling Shaw

- Loses two close decision to Barney Ross

- Beats 130lbs champion Frankie Klick (one of four victories over him)

- Beats Chocolate again

- Beats Hall of Famer Baby Arizmendi

- Beats Hall of Famer Lou Ambers, regains lightweight title

- Beats Hall of Famer Jimmy McLarnin

- Beats former 140lbs champion Johnny Jadick

That's nine Hall of Famers Canzoneri beat. Of course, he lost to some of them as well, but that was bound to happen within a schedule as demanding as his (in 1927, for example, he fought twenty times). Canzoneri fought for titles ranging from bantamweight to junior welterweight, winning the featherweight, lightweight and junior welterweight world championships.

I just think Canzoneri deserves a bit more recognition. As a world bantamweight title challenger, his lightweight achievement of two title reigns and five defences, his featherweight titles and one defence, and two defences of a junior welterweight title, plus beating a great welterweight in McLarnin, Canzoneri is a remarkable and stand-out fighter of his generation.

Good insight. He does have a great resume. One of the most overlooked fighters of the lighter weights. Anyone who beats Ambers, Ross, and Chocolate aint no joke. A top 20 ATG, no question. I'd loved to have seen how he would fared against Whitaker or Duran. Pep at featherweight seems a real interesting one.

[Bummy Davis]

He Would Give Anyone A Tough Fight And A Run For There Money In The Top 10 In His Weight Class And Is Somewhere In Between

[sweet_scientist]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Louis
10.Carlos Monzon
11. Benny Leonard
12. Pernell Whitaker
13. Archie Moore
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Joe Gans
16. Mickey Walker
17. George Dixon
18. barbados Joe walcott
19. Barney Ross
20. Tony Canzoneri
21. Eder Jofre
22. Alexis Arguello
23. Willie Pep
24. Sandy Saddler
25. Carlos Ortiz
26. Gene Tunney
27. Kid Gavilan
28. Emile Griffith
29. Ike Williams
30. Jack Johnson
31. Julio Cesar Chavez
32. Charley Burley
33. Evander Holyfield
34. Larry Holmes
35. Dick Tiger
36. Michael Spinks
37. Roy Jones Jr.
38. Abe Attell
39. Jimmy Mclarnin
40. Panama Al Brown
41. Manuel Ortiz
42. Fighting Harada
43. Floyd Mayweather
44. Bernard Hopkins
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Thomas Hearns
47. Aaron Pryor
48. Ricardo Lopez
49. Oscar De la Hoya
50. Vicente Saldivar

That's not a bad list, nothing glaringly ridiculous about it really, despite me disagreeing with quite a bit of it.

One thing I want to know is why, given that you are always pointing out to others who has the superior resume, who beat the most contenders, HOF'ers etc. you'd have the likes of Joe Louis ahead of Benny Leonard, Archie Moore and Tony Canzoneri etc.

Whilst I don't think it's a necessarily bad choice in and of itself, it seems somewhat inconsistent with YOUR general emphasis.

Just another quick question: what do you think of Jim Driscoll? And what do you think about him handing Attell his ass?

[brownpimp88]

I'm gonna edit my p4p list and put sammy angott in it, hes a very underrated fighter.

[brownpimp88]

That's not a bad list, nothing glaringly ridiculous about it really, despite me disagreeing with quite a bit of it.

One thing I want to know is why, given that you are always pointing out to others who has the superior resume, who beat the most contenders, HOF'ers etc. you'd have the likes of Joe Louis ahead of Benny Leonard, Archie Moore and Tony Canzoneri etc.

Whilst I don't think it's a necessarily bad choice in and of itself, it seems somewhat inconsistent with YOUR general emphasis.

Just another quick question: what do you think of Jim Driscoll? And what do you think about him handing Attell his ass? to me its how someone ranks the top 15 that matters. After that its all really based on opinions. You can rank fighting harada at 31, others can say that outside his wins over jofre, he really doesnt have much of a depth to be that high.

Joe Louis beat 6 lineal heavyweight champs, 2 lineal light heavyweight champs and 20 other ranked contenders, he has to be that high.

As you can see i left out ketchell, nonpariel dempsey, jack dempsey, bob fitzsimmons and jimmy wilde. Why becuase i dont like thier resumes and since they are way old school, its expected that they are crude fighters, especially ketchel.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm gonna edit my p4p list and put sammy angott in it, hes a very underrated fighter.

Agree he is very underrated. I don't think he's top 50 largely due to inconsistency, but as far as clocking up big names on a resume, there aren't 50 with superior ones.

[sweet_scientist]

to me its how someone ranks the top 15 that matters. After that its all really based on opinions. You can rank fighting harada at 31, others can say that outside his wins over jofre, he really doesnt have much of a depth to be that high.

Joe Louis beat 6 lineal heavyweight champs, 2 lineal light heavyweight champs and 20 other ranked contenders, he has to be that high.

As you can see i left out ketchell, nonpariel dempsey, jack dempsey, bob fitzsimmons and jimmy wilde. Why becuase i dont like thier resumes and since they are way old school, its expected that they are crude fighters, especially ketchel.

Does he? Surely Moore, Canzoneri and Leonard have better accomplishments though.

[brownpimp88]

Does he? Surely Moore, Canzoneri and Leonard have better accomplishments though. moore lost to many big fights, including a loss to a blown up welterweight.

Oscar De La Hoya is actually quite underrated himself, hes been in alot of close decisions but anyone that can beat 18 belt holders has to have a great resume.

[brownpimp88]

Agree he is very underrated. I don't think he's top 50 largely due to inconsistency, but as far as clocking up big names on a resume, there aren't 50 with superior ones.
gavilan was just as inconsistent, but goining simply on wins resume him and jimmy mclarnin are up there.

[sweet_scientist]

moore lost to many big fights, including a loss to a blown up welterweight.

Oscar De La Hoya is actually quite underrated himself, hes been in alot of close decisions but anyone that can beat 18 belt holders has to have a great resume.

Louis lost to a blown up light heavy as well. He was past his prime there, but Moore had not struck his prime when he lost to Burley imo.

DLH had many close career defining fights and I think where he's ranked comes down to how you see them going. Someone could potentially have him losing to Whitaker, Mosley twice, Trinidad and Quartey without it being too absurd. On the other hand someone could have him beating all those guys without it being absurd either.

[sweet_scientist]

gavilan was just as inconsistent, but goining simply on wins resume him and jimmy mclarnin are up there.

Gavilan got shafted in many fights too though, and to an extent his inconsistency came at the tail end of his career.

[brownpimp88]

Louis lost to a blown up light heavy as well. He was past his prime there, but Moore had not struck his prime when he lost to Burley imo.

DLH had many close career defining fights and I think where he's ranked comes down to how you see them going. Someone could potentially have him losing to Whitaker, Mosley twice, Trinidad and Quartey without it being too absurd. On the other hand someone could have him beating all those guys without it being absurd either.
even if he didnt hit his prime, he wasnt green at all, he was a 9 year veteran getting battered by a welterweight, which is embarassing.