Ali/Norton 3: Horrendous Robbery ?

[he grant]

I happen to think that the third Ali / Norton fight was a terrible decision and that Norton was robbed. I think he won at least 10 - 5 and more like 11 - 4. What do you guys think ?

[Mendoza]

I happen to think that the third Ali / Norton fight was a terrible decision and that Norton was robbed. I think he won at least 10 - 5 and more like 11 - 4. What do you guys think ?

This was perhaps the worst robbery I have seen. Norton won the fight clean.

10-5, or 9-6. And if the judges gave Norton the win, I think he would get respect he deserves.

It is a pity ESPN does not show many Norton fights. Norton had great speed, and mean body attack, and the stamina to fight all night. Sure, Foreman axed him quickly, but he did the same to Frazier. I find it interesting that Ali could not hurt Norton, but he could rock and stun Frazier.

Chins are part mental I guess. Vs a feared puncher, Norton backed up on the ropes and froze.

[punchy]

I agree with everything said one of the worst. I am an Ali fan but lets face reality.

[Dostoevsky]

Absolutley not. It was all down to the last round, whoever won the 15th won the fight.

[Russell]

Absolutley not. It was all down to the last round, whoever won the 15th won the fight.

:rofl

[Sweet Pea]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

[Addie]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

And believe it or not, all of the Ali detractors on ESB point to Norton, Shavers, and Young as to why they think he is overrated.

I guess they didn't know he fought all of them past his prime.

[JohnThomas1]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

Now there's a good post.

[Russell]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

As if Frazier, a consenus top ten ATG heavyweight didn't freeze up on even bigger stages than Norton against huge punchers.

Bullshit to view Norton in such a light when 90% of the people that fought both Foreman and especially Shaver's were blown out in similar fashion.

[JohnThomas1]

As if Frazier, a consenus top ten ATG heavyweight didn't freeze up on even bigger stages than Norton against huge punchers.

Bullshit to view Norton in such a light when 90% of the people that fought both Foreman and especially Shaver's were blown out in similar fashion.

Frazier only lost to Foreman among huge punchers :huh

Heck he only lost to Ali n' Foreman period.

[Russell]

That changes what I'm saying how?

How many fights did the man have, total?

He lost two by devastating knockout to the same man that blew Norton out, and was dropped, hard, by other hard punchers in Bonvena.

You think there's no reasoning behind Frazier not fighting Mac Foster? Shavers? Even potentially Lyle?

[Maxmomer]

Frazier only lost to Foreman among huge punchers :huh

Heck he only lost to Ali n' Foreman period.

Well, Foreman was really the only huge puncher he faced. I think Cooney and Shavers hit harder than anyone Frazier fought besides Foreman.

[Russell]

Cooney feasted on the corpses of 70's fighters.

Lyle and Young catch no flake for being stopped by Cooney.

Norton does... Why?

[Maxmomer]

Cooney feasted on the corpses of 70's fighters.

Lyle and Young catch no flake for being stopped by Cooney.

Norton does... Why?

Because it continues and verifies the trend in Norton's career of going down against big punchers. Lyle went up against Shavers and came out on top, and was far more competitive against Foreman, so that proves he could take big punches from a massive hitter. Young also proved he could take on a big puncher by beating Foreman. Lyle, Young and Norton all fought Shavers, Cooney and Foreman. Young and Lyle were able to beat 1 out of 3 of them, Norton folded against all three and lost in devastating fashion.

[JohnThomas1]

That changes what I'm saying how?

How many fights did the man have, total?

He lost two by devastating knockout to the same man that blew Norton out, and was dropped, hard, by other hard punchers in Bonvena.

You think there's no reasoning behind Frazier not fighting Mac Foster? Shavers? Even potentially Lyle?

Fair call. I guess it boils down to small things and personal opinion, like Norton's early loss to Garcia but admittedly he was not his best, and whether one thinks Frazier fought to the past prime stage Norton did when he lost a couple to huge hitters. Some might also argue the power merits of some of Fraziers opponents.

I'd be surprized if Frazier avoided those you mention. Heck, he had the balls to go back and take on Foreman again, in fact he wouldn't have missed it in the world.

[JohnThomas1]

Because it continues and verifies the trend in Norton's career of going down against big punchers. Lyle went up against Shavers and came out on top, and was far more competitive against Foreman, so that proves he could take big punches from a massive hitter. Young also proved he could take on a big puncher by beating Foreman. Lyle, Young and Norton all fought Shavers, Cooney and Foreman. Young and Lyle were able to beat 1 out of 3 of them, Norton folded against all three and lost in devastating fashion.

Great post.

[Russell]

Because it continues and verifies the trend in Norton's career of going down against big punchers. Lyle went up against Shavers and came out on top, and was far more competitive against Foreman, so that proves he could take big punches from a massive hitter. Young also proved he could take on a big puncher by beating Foreman. Lyle, Young and Norton all fought Shavers, Cooney and Foreman. Young and Lyle were able to beat 1 out of 3 of them, Norton folded against all three and lost in devastating fashion.

And Lyle was stopped by Ali.

Ali never even had Norton off his feet in how many dozens of rounds?

This is all very circular.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, Foreman was really the only huge puncher he faced. I think Cooney and Shavers hit harder than anyone Frazier fought besides Foreman.

Fair call, but we'd be assuming Frazier might fall to Cooney and Shavers where as we full well know with Norton. Your other post sums up the total situation beautifully tho.

[Russell]

Fair call. I guess it boils down to small things and personal opinion, like Norton's early loss to Garcia but admittedly he was not his best, and whether one thinks Frazier fought to the past prime stage Norton did when he lost a couple to huge hitters. Some might also argue the power merits of some of Fraziers opponents.

I'd be surprized if Frazier avoided those you mention. Heck, he had the balls to go back and take on Foreman again, in fact he wouldn't have missed it in the world.

Norton avenged that loss.

[Maxmomer]

Great post.

I think it's one of my better ones.

[JohnThomas1]

Norton avenged that loss.

Fair call too. I forgive Lewis and many others for similar things. Your defense of Norton is a good one in this thread. Nice to see him getting decent well thought out recognition. Keep up the good work in future threads Russ.

[JohnThomas1]

I think it's one of my better ones.
Don't sell yourself short, but it's a hard one to top.

[Russell]

Fair call too. I forgive Lewis and many others for similar things. Your defense of Norton is a good one in this thread. Nice to see him getting decent well thought out recognition. Keep up the good work in future threads Russ.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Sweet Pea]

As if Frazier, a consenus top ten ATG heavyweight didn't freeze up on even bigger stages than Norton against huge punchers.He fought and lost to one huge puncher, that was Foreman, the same guy who took Norton out. Difference is, Norton also lost to other big punchers like Shavers, Cooney, and even early in his career against a nobody(which he later avenged). You can't compare the two when not only does Frazier have a better resume overall, but was more consistent and aside from the losses to Foreman, proved his chin on multiple occasions, something Norton didn't do aside from the Holmes bout.


Bullshit to view Norton in such a light when 90% of the people that fought both Foreman and especially Shaver's were blown out in similar fashion.
Shavers rarely beat a top notch fighter, he simply was too un-skilled and lacked the cardio. In fact, the only one I can remember him beating is...........why Ken Norton. Hmmmm.

[Russell]

Frazier lost in devastating fashion to Foreman twice.

Just like Frazier, Norton climbed off the canvas multiple times. Three times before Foreman stopped him in the second round. The EXACT same round Frazier was stopped in.

Do I really need to spoon feed this to anyone?

And secondly...

You need to educate yourself on Shaver's record if you don't think he never beat any "top notch" fighters.

It took him a grand total of 5 rounds (Combined) to beat Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young and Joe Bugner, the Bugner thrashing when Shaver's was 37 years old.

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.

Once again, Norton's chin was not by and far worse than Frazier's. Just because Norton chose to take dangerous matches when his chin was known to be vulnerable isn't a mark against him, any more than Frazier avoiding certain powerful punchers is on against him.

[Bokaj]

Frazier lost in devastating fashion to Foreman twice.

Just like Frazier, Norton climbed off the canvas multiple times. Three times before Foreman stopped him in the second round. The EXACT same round Frazier was stopped in.

Do I really need to spoon feed this to anyone?

And secondly...

You need to educate yourself on Shaver's record if you don't think he never beat any "top notch" fighters.

It took him a grand total of 5 rounds (Combined) to beat Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young and Joe Bugner, the Bugner thrashing when Shaver's was 37 years old.

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.

Once again, Norton's chin was not by and far worse than Frazier's. Just because Norton chose to take dangerous matches when his chin was known to be vulnerable isn't a mark against him, any more than Frazier avoiding certain powerful punchers is on against him.

Very good point. But Futch said Norton freezed up against punchers. That he'd noticed it even before Norton's fight against Foreman. And for me Futch's words carry some weight in this case, I must say.

Too bad that, beacuse I really like Norton. The version of Ali that Norton pushed to the limit in their rematch in 1973 wasn't at all far from what he had been at his absolute peak IMO, and that really says something. Beautiful fight. In terms of skill and technique from both fighters it offers up more than any of the Ali-Frazier fights IMO.

[ChrisPontius]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

I don't think anyone is calling Norton great. I've never been too positive about him really, but i think he deserves his dues for beating Ali that third time and being called the heavyweight champion of the world. I cannot imagine the agony to be robbed of that just because the guy in front of you had better wit.

[Russell]

Very good point. But Futch said Norton freezed up against punchers. That he'd noticed it even before Norton's fight against Foreman. And for me Futch's words carry some weight in this case, I must say.

Too bad that, beacuse I really like Norton. The version of Ali that Norton pushed to the limit in their rematch in 1973 wasn't at all far from what he had been at his absolute peak IMO, and that really says something. Beautiful fight. In terms of skill and technique from both fighters it offers up more than any of the Ali-Frazier fights IMO.

No one is disputing that he froze up.

Of course he did.

My sole point is that he didn't do any worse against some of the very hardest hitting heavyweights of all time than established ATG's like Frazier.

[Unforgiven]

Norton's unfairly judged for getting KO'd by Foreman, Shavers and Cooney, IMO.

He was a total shell, around 38 years old, when he fought Cooney, so it's not fair to say that's a relevant result. Remember Duane Bobick had similar hype to Cooney, and was considered a devastating KO fighter, and many thought he too might flatten Norton, but Norton punched him out first round. Bobick had a rep as a puncher, and aggressive, but that didn't automatically win him a fight with Norton.

Against Shavers, it's a crapshoot if you're a Norton-style fighter. I dont believe Shavers beats Norton "10 out of 10" or "5 out of 5" or whatever. Norton was probably almost as capable of ambushing Shavers in the first round as Shavers was of doing what he actually did. You dont have to be chinny, or have a psychological problem with punchers, to end up on the wrong end of a 1st round KO when you're going up against Shavers.

Foreman was Foreman. There aren't many men with the same combination of strength, power and durability as Foreman.

[fists of fury]

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.



This is true. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that the same results would have occured against Frazier.

In addition: a past-it Norton is being heavily judged for these two fights, yet gets no credit (or very little) for 'beating' Ali in the third fight because Ali 'was past it.'

I see how this works now...

[he grant]

Lots to say here.

Ali was past his prime for Frazier, Foreman, Norton and every opponent in his comeback. He went down another level past Manila.

Norton had a strange career. He was an extremely good fighter. Style wise he would have been very tough for any Ali or Holmes. However, he did freeze up against Foreman in his prime and later, older but still a top heavyweight, against Shavers. Even the Cooney loss has merrit since right before in his comeback he went a fast ten rounds and outpointed a then undefeated and in shape Tex Cobb. Notron was simply one of those guys that was murder on everyone but huge punchers.

Frazier was a completely different animal. To put him in Norton's catagory is nonsense. Frazier was a warrior. From 1968 to 1972 Frazier dominated boxing. Frazier's chin and ability to absorb punishment is grossly underated. Toss aside Foreman and he went to war with everyone and won.

Bonavena dropped him twice. The first was from a terrific shot and Oscar was a bull and a big puncher. The second was more from Joe still off balance from the first. Still, Joe hung tough, survived the rest of the round and came back to win. Who else even hurt Joe? Ramos was a huge puncher and he landed a killer shot in the first round of their bout which actually lifted Joe off his feet . Joe took it and came back firing. Joe took all the best bombs of a prime Jerry Quarry, a very good puncher.

The knocks on Joe come mostly post Foreman 1 when he continued to fight with poor vision, past his own prime. He was stunned a moment by Joe Bugmer but came right back. He was stunned a moment by Ali in the second fight but I find it overated. He took bombs against Ali in Manila without vision to see them coming and never went down. Say Ali cannot hit but he flattened the iron chinned Bonavena and had recently KO'ed Foreman and Lyle.

Frazier had zero business being in the ring with Foreman a second time. Yes George crushed him but George could crush anyone he could hit. If he wa able to hit Ali with the same flush volume of shots Ali would have gone as well.

Frazier was a warrior, an all time great champ and should be recognized as so.

[Sweet Pea]

Frazier lost in devastating fashion to Foreman twice.

Just like Frazier, Norton climbed off the canvas multiple times. Three times before Foreman stopped him in the second round. The EXACT same round Frazier was stopped in.

Do I really need to spoon feed this to anyone?
No, so why are you? Frazier got up 8 times by the way.


And secondly...

You need to educate yourself on Shaver's record if you don't think he never beat any "top notch" fighters.

It took him a grand total of 5 rounds (Combined) to beat Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young and Joe Bugner, the Bugner thrashing when Shaver's was 37 years old.
I should've said elite, and was going to, being as Ellis was toward the end of his career when Shavers surprised him in the first. I don't think it quite makes up for all of his stoppage losses to the likes of Cobb, Mercado, Lyle, Quarry, etc. These guys were there to bang with him(not seen the Mercado fight) and survived his initial onslaught only to put him out later.

Simply put, Shavers was not a great fighter either, and any ELITE HW should've beaten him. You also admit in a later post that Norton did indeed freeze up on punchers. Well, regardless of whether or not Frazier lost to Foreman, he never froze up on punchers, he simply faced about as bad a styles matchup as you could think of and got stopped. In the rematch he actually boxed quite well before being stopped in the 5th, I'd take that Frazier over Shavers any day.

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.:lol: Frazier had been retired for years prior to that comeback, whereas Norton showed flashes of his best just prior to the Shavers KO loss in his war with Holmes. You can't compare this stuff. Compare the two fighter's careers, that's a better way to go about it. Norton lost to pretty much every big puncher he faced, Frazier lost to one. Norton has his wins over a faded Ali to back him(with the occasional Quarry or Young), Frazier has quite a bit more.

My point is, by comparing him to Frazier you're not taking a lot of things into account, and you really have only one thing to compare them with, the losses to Foreman. I don't see the comparison in the same light as you do.


Once again, Norton's chin was not by and far worse than Frazier's. Just because Norton chose to take dangerous matches when his chin was known to be vulnerable isn't a mark against him, any more than Frazier avoiding certain powerful punchers is on against him.
I wouldn't say his chin was much worse, I'd say what has been said time and again, that he froze up against the big hitters.

[Drew101]

Lots to say here.

Ali was past his prime for Frazier, Foreman, Norton and every opponent in his comeback. He went down another level past Manila.

Norton had a strange career. He was an extremely good fighter. Style wise he would have been very tough for any Ali or Holmes. However, he did freeze up against Foreman in his prime and later, older but still a top heavyweight, against Frazier. Even the Cooney loss has merrit since right before in his comeback he went a fast ten rounds and outpointed a then undefeated and in shape Tex Cobb. Notron was simply one of those guys that was murder on everyone but huge punchers.

Frazier was a completely different animal. To put him in Norton's catagory is nonsense. Frazier was a warrior. From 1968 to 1972 Frazier dominated boxing. Frazier's chin and ability to absorb punishment is grossly underated. Toss aside Foreman and he went to war with everyone and won.

Bonavena dropped him twice. The first was from a terrific shot and Oscar was a bull and a big puncher. The second was more from Joe still off balance from the first. Still, Joe hung tough, survived the rest of the round and came back to win. Who else even hurt Joe? Ramos was a huge puncher and he landed a killer shot in the first round of their bout which actually lifted Joe off his feet . Joe took it and came back firing. Joe took all the best bombs of a prime Jerry Quarry, a very good puncher.

The knocks on Joe come mostly post Foreman 1 when he continued to fight with poor vision, past his own prime. He was stunned a moment by Joe Bugmer but came right back. He was stunned a moment by Ali in the second fight but I find it overated. He took bombs against Ali in Manila without vision to see them coming and never went down. Say Ali cannot hit but he flattened the iron chinned Bonavena and had recently KO'ed Foreman and Lyle.

Frazier had zero business being in the ring with Foreman a second time. Yes George crushed him but George could crush anyone he could hit. If he wa able to hit Ali with the same flush volume of shots Ali would have gone as well.

Frazier was a warrior, an all time great champ and should be recognized as so.

Superb post.

[he grant]

Thank you.

[Thread Stealer]

It is a pity ESPN does not show many Norton fights. Norton had great speed, and mean body attack, and the stamina to fight all night. Sure, Foreman axed him quickly, but he did the same to Frazier. I find it interesting that Ali could not hurt Norton, but he could rock and stun Frazier.

The only ones I can remember seeing on ESPN Classic of Norton were the loss to Foreman and Norton's brutal torture of Quarry.

They showed the Ali fights on Versus a little while back.

[Bokaj]

Which was the biggest robbery do you think, Ali-Norton III or Louis-Walcott?

[round15]

Lots to say here.

Ali was past his prime for Frazier, Foreman, Norton and every opponent in his comeback. He went down another level past Manila.

Norton had a strange career. He was an extremely good fighter. Style wise he would have been very tough for any Ali or Holmes. However, he did freeze up against Foreman in his prime and later, older but still a top heavyweight, against Shavers. Even the Cooney loss has merrit since right before in his comeback he went a fast ten rounds and outpointed a then undefeated and in shape Tex Cobb. Notron was simply one of those guys that was murder on everyone but huge punchers.

Frazier was a completely different animal. To put him in Norton's catagory is nonsense. Frazier was a warrior. From 1968 to 1972 Frazier dominated boxing. Frazier's chin and ability to absorb punishment is grossly underated. Toss aside Foreman and he went to war with everyone and won.

Bonavena dropped him twice. The first was from a terrific shot and Oscar was a bull and a big puncher. The second was more from Joe still off balance from the first. Still, Joe hung tough, survived the rest of the round and came back to win. Who else even hurt Joe? Ramos was a huge puncher and he landed a killer shot in the first round of their bout which actually lifted Joe off his feet . Joe took it and came back firing. Joe took all the best bombs of a prime Jerry Quarry, a very good puncher.

The knocks on Joe come mostly post Foreman 1 when he continued to fight with poor vision, past his own prime. He was stunned a moment by Joe Bugmer but came right back. He was stunned a moment by Ali in the second fight but I find it overated. He took bombs against Ali in Manila without vision to see them coming and never went down. Say Ali cannot hit but he flattened the iron chinned Bonavena and had recently KO'ed Foreman and Lyle.

Frazier had zero business being in the ring with Foreman a second time. Yes George crushed him but George could crush anyone he could hit. If he wa able to hit Ali with the same flush volume of shots Ali would have gone as well.

Frazier was a warrior, an all time great champ and should be recognized as so.

Nice post.

I would like to add by saying that the first Foreman vs Frazier fight could have had a different outcome if Frazier treated Foreman with the same respect and determination to training that he paid to Ali. Frazier was far from prime shape when he fought Foreman, tried to win on ability alone and was knocked around the ring in the process.

Mercante's job was nothing to write home about either because he let Foreman push, shove and grab Frazier's shoulders instead of forcing him to fight by the rules which means boxing or moving out of the clinches. Regardless of opinion, nobody should discredit Foreman for his wins against Frazier. He made sure to not let him get close and get warmed up. He boxed smartly and carefully the second time against Frazier even when Joe was wearing contact lenses and could barely see. This is the Foreman that I'd never bet against because that looked like his best performance post Ali and post Lyle.

[Bokaj]

Just watched Ali-Young, and in no way shape or form was that a robbery (even if the margin that two of judges had in Ali's favour was horrendous). It was a very close fight and a draw would have been alright since neither fighter did enough to win IMO.

But it absolutely wasn't a robbery. For one thing you don't win the HW-title by sticking your upper body through the ropes when the other guy is unloading on you. Young actually took a count for this in the end of the 12th round. Since it was scored on the 10 point must-system, that might have clinched it for Ali in my book. Very close fight.

Please, don't let hear anything about robbery ever more concerning this fight. Sure, the judges gave Ali the benefit of a doubt, but that was all. No one can say that fight completely belonged to Young. He just didn't do enough.

[TIGEREDGE]

Either way it doesn't prove much. Ali was pretty much shot by that point anyway, his wits were his only strong point by then.

As for Norton getting the respect he deserves, maybe if he didn't freeze up and get blown out by almost every big puncher he ever faced I'd agree. As it is, a very good boxer at HW(definitely not good enough to beat a prime Ali though), but too limited to be considered great.

it proves that norton deserved to be champion at that time and that Holmes beat the real linear champion in 1978

[punchy]

Just watched Ali-Young, and in no way shape or form was that a robbery (even if the margin that two of judges had in Ali's favour was horrendous). It was a very close fight and a draw would have been alright since neither fighter did enough to win IMO.

But it absolutely wasn't a robbery. For one thing you don't win the HW-title by sticking your upper body through the ropes when the other guy is unloading on you. Young actually took a count for this in the end of the 12th round. Since it was scored on the 10 point must-system, that might have clinched it for Ali in my book. Very close fight.

Please, don't let hear anything about robbery ever more concerning this fight. Sure, the judges gave Ali the benefit of a doubt, but that was all. No one can say that fight completely belonged to Young. He just didn't do enough.

You can debate whether it was robbery or not till the cows come home, what you can't debate is how bad Ali looked in the fight, he was obviously a shot fighter at this time.

[Bokaj]

You can debate whether it was robbery or not till the cows come home, what you can't debate is how bad Ali looked in the fight, he was obviously a shot fighter at this time.

No, that is not up for debate. I don't know if he was shot so much as just lazy, though. He was very underprepared for that fight. It's really just another testiment to that he should've quit after Manilla.

I would like to see a younger, better prepared Ali against Young, though. If feel that Young would have presented Ali with difficulties at any stage of his career, actually. He was very, very slick.

[Thread Stealer]

Shavers-Ali was a robbery. I don't care if Earnie says he lost.

Shavers won 9 rounds.

[he grant]

It's funny you say that because other than the fact that everyone admits that Ali was badly rocked in round two and rallied in the last 30 seconds of the 15th, you really do not hear much about the fight ... I have not watched the whole thing in many years and would like to ...

[Bokaj]

Shavers-Ali was a robbery. I don't care if Earnie says he lost.

Shavers won 9 rounds.

I watched it today and does not agree at all. It was close and hard fought, but Ali won it with 2 rds margin IMO. The commentators of the fight (Norton and another guy) doesn't seem to feel Shaver's should have won it anymore than Shavers himself did.

[JIm Broughton]

Regardless of how Kenny fared against big punchers, the fact remains that he was robbed in the third Ali fight. Kenny was Ali's kryptonite, more so than even Frazier due to his style,jab and size. The powers that be in Boxing at that time knew that Ali was still the biggest draw in the HW division and that if he lost to Norton in that fight he probably wouldn't be able to beat Kenny a 4th time. Since Norton didn't have the drawing power or charisma of Ali, a close fight would go to Ali whether or not he truly deservrd it. I think in some ways the sport did a disservice to Ali by giving him a few too many "gifts" during the tail end of the 70's. Those gifts enabled Ali to continue fighting and absorbing more punishment than he should've taken at that point in his career which probably led to the way he is now. After his "win" against Shavers, Teddy Brenner made a statement saying that he would no longer promote Ali in New York for his own good. If that's not a wakeup call then I don't know what is. Manila should've been Ali's last fight. Talk about a great way to end a fantastic career. But sadly he went on. Brett Favre...are you listening?

[Russell]

Ali actually admitted he lost Norton III. At a press conference. Right after the fight.

You can pop in the Ali documentary Ali - The Whole Story and see that for yourself.

[Bokaj]

Ali actually admitted he lost Norton III. At a press conference. Right after the fight.

You can pop in the Ali documentary Ali - The Whole Story and see that for yourself.

Really hard on Norton, that one. Wonder what would have happened if Norton had gotten the win he seems to have earned (I've never really watched the fight closely myself).

The only way to defeat Ali those days was probably through a KO or a complete shut-out. With that said, I don't believe either Shavers or Young beat him. I think that the Norton robbery has cast a shadow of suspiscion over every close fight Ali ever had.

[RockyJim]

One of the New York papers said this after the fight:"If Ali won that fight last night...then the Japanese won World War ll"...

[RockyJim]

They gave Ali the decision because he was Ali...

[Bokaj]

They gave Ali the decision because he was Ali...

Yeah, sure. But one thing we should keep in mind is that Ali isn't the only one who got this preferential treatment. Louis edged one or two close fights just Ali, and had an outright gift decision as well. If Douglas hadn't KO'd Tyson that one might have ended in the most outrageous robbery ever. One judge actually had Tyson ahead when the fight ended! And don't forget Holyfield's gift against Lewis.

Ali was obviously not the only one who benefitted from his "iconic" staus.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Harry Carpenter was furious at this decision in his BBC commentary, calling it one of the worst he's ever seen. And Harry hung on Ali's bollocks for the most part too.

[ChrisPontius]

Yeah, sure. But one thing we should keep in mind is that Ali isn't the only one who got this preferential treatment. Louis edged one or two close fights just Ali, and had an outright gift decision as well. If Douglas hadn't KO'd Tyson that one might have ended in the most outrageous robbery ever. One judge actually had Tyson ahead when the fight ended! And don't forget Holyfield's gift against Lewis.

Ali was obviously not the only one who benefitted from his "iconic" staus.

True, but i think Ali's score in the undeserved losses vs undeserved wins ranks as high as anybody. The fact that he never lost a close fight that could've gone either way seperates him. For instance, De la Hoya perhaps was lucky to win the Whitaker/Quartey/Mosley fights, but got shafted against Trinidad.

Ali could've easily lost the Frazier rematch, the Shavers fight, The Norton rematch and the Jones fight. Now i think he deserved to win those, but let's be honest, in boxing you can get robbed of much less clearer wins. If you then add in that he won fights he clearly lost - Norton III & Young - you get the picture. He was extremely fortunate when it came to the judges.

Then again, that was because of his own doing and popularity - in a sense you could say it's part of the greatness of Ali. And of course i don't remember Louis losing a close fight either, although he had fewer of them.

[Bokaj]

True, but i think Ali's score in the undeserved losses vs undeserved wins ranks as high as anybody. The fact that he never lost a close fight that could've gone either way seperates him. For instance, De la Hoya perhaps was lucky to win the Whitaker/Quartey/Mosley fights, but got shafted against Trinidad.

Ali could've easily lost the Frazier rematch, the Shavers fight, The Norton rematch and the Jones fight. Now i think he deserved to win those, but let's be honest, in boxing you can get robbed of much less clearer wins. If you then add in that he won fights he clearly lost - Norton III & Young - you get the picture. He was extremely fortunate when it came to the judges.

Then again, that was because of his own doing and popularity - in a sense you could say it's part of the greatness of Ali. And of course i don't remember Louis losing a close fight either, although he had fewer of them.

True. But he almost always won the last round in these close fights and that often made the difference. For me, that's the mark of a champion, to be able to pull together like that.

Ali-Frazier II wasn't close enough to raise any hesitation in my mind. But of course if Frazier had gotten the decision it wouldn't have been the strangest thing to ever have happened in a boxing ring...

The fight against Young was very close, but I think it's strange that people actually think Young won that one. You don't win the HW-title with such a negative perfomance, slick as it was. Even if the points margin against Shavers was a tad clearer IMO, I think a Shaver win would be more likely than a Young win. Shavers went for the win, Young tried to avoid a loss. That's how I see it.

[ChrisPontius]

Well i have to disagree there. Fights are scored on a round-by-round basis, not who makes the most memorable 12th round comeback, as emotionally exciting as that is.

As for Young, just because he's a defensive fighter doesn't mean he fights to avoid a loss. I think he outlanded Ali in most rounds and simply did the better work in a clear win. On the contrary, i thought the Shavers fight was closer.

[Bokaj]

Well i have to disagree there. Fights are scored on a round-by-round basis, not who makes the most memorable 12th round comeback, as emotionally exciting as that is.

As for Young, just because he's a defensive fighter doesn't mean he fights to avoid a loss. I think he outlanded Ali in most rounds and simply did the better work in a clear win. On the contrary, i thought the Shavers fight was closer.

Well, I suppose we just saw it differently. For me it was a very close fight, with the standing count that Young received probably being the difference between them.

The commentators (Cosell and Norton) also saw it as very close, as did "everyone at ringside" according to Cosell. And even if a draw wouldn't have been too unfair, I just can't see how you could win a very close title by sticking you upper-body through the ropes repeatedly.

[ChrisPontius]

See, that's the kind of emotional straw man reasoning that i don't buy. You reduce the entire fight to "you don't win the championship of the world by sticking your head through the ropes", "Ali won the last round and gave it all there". Yes, cool, but on a round by round basis, which is how fights are scored, he lost.

[Seamus]

Sham of a fight.

[Bokaj]

See, that's the kind of emotional straw man reasoning that i don't buy. You reduce the entire fight to "you don't win the championship of the world by sticking your head through the ropes", "Ali won the last round and gave it all there". Yes, cool, but on a round by round basis, which is how fights are scored, he lost.

If I agreed that Young clearly won by a round by round basis, then that would be that. But to win a really close title fight (where I personally lean slightly towards Ali) like that... Well, call it emotional, but it is well known that the challenger "have to go for it" to win, even if it's probably not written down anywhere, and everyone who climbs into the ring knows that.

[Bokaj]

Sham of a fight.

Yeah, it was Ali's most boring fight. I did enjoy some of Young's moves (but obviously not all of them), though. A very slick fighter.

[JIm Broughton]

One more thing...If you have to really beat the champion big in order to take the belt away, why wasn't Norton declared the winner in his fight against Holmes? Larry won by one point! It seems the boxing higher ups truly didn't want Norton as thier champion as the general public wouldn't be interested in him. He wasn't given any leeway at all...at least not like Ali was given it seems.

[Chinxkid]

Ali was good for business. You loved him or you hated him, but you wanted to see him fight.

[Bokaj]

One more thing...If you have to really beat the champion big in order to take the belt away, why wasn't Norton declared the winner in his fight against Holmes? Larry won by one point! It seems the boxing higher ups truly didn't want Norton as thier champion as the general public wouldn't be interested in him. He wasn't given any leeway at all...at least not like Ali was given it seems.

No, Norton certainly wasn't given the rub of the green. But he doesn't seem bitter at all, though. Seems to be a genuinly nice guy.

[janitor]

See, that's the kind of emotional straw man reasoning that i don't buy. You reduce the entire fight to "you don't win the championship of the world by sticking your head through the ropes", "Ali won the last round and gave it all there". Yes, cool, but on a round by round basis, which is how fights are scored, he lost.

You are a hard man.

[PlayerGold81]

Ali needed to win the last round which he did to defeat Norton for the second time. In his prime, a better prepared Ali would have finished Norton by the middle rounds.

[Russell]

See, that's the kind of emotional straw man reasoning that i don't buy. You reduce the entire fight to "you don't win the championship of the world by sticking your head through the ropes", "Ali won the last round and gave it all there". Yes, cool, but on a round by round basis, which is how fights are scored, he lost.

Yup.

Straight bullshit.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ali needed to win the last round which he did to defeat Norton for the second time. In his prime, a better prepared Ali would have finished Norton by the middle rounds.



:lol:

[Robbi]

I've never seen Ali-Norton III yet. Will probably get it from my supplier in the near future.

[Russell]

On the Young fight...

Dundee knew it. The thousands in the crowd knew it, and were quite vocal about it. Cosell was hanging off Ali's balls like he always did, Norton wouldn't give his full opinion when asked by Cosell because of the upcoming potential third fight with Ali.

From Wikipedia...

Longtime RING magazine writer Lester Bromberg scored the fight 11 rounds to 4 for Jimmy Young. Bromberg called the official decision "a travesty of a decision." Even Ali's ever loyal trainer Angelo Dundee admitted it was the champion's worst fight.

Almost exactly what I scored it.

This bullshit justification is...

A) A product of people who've never actually seen the fight.

B) People who seemingly missed all the bodywork Young did in the fight, as opposed to sticking his head out of the ropes to fuck with Ali three times near the end of the fight.

Crowd loved Ali getting clowed too, actually.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've never seen Ali-Norton III yet. Will probably get it from my supplier in the near future.


Boring fight. Norton forces the action, Ali throws a few gnat-stinging punches at him, sparingly. Norton lands all the heavy blows.

[mcvey]

Frazier lost in devastating fashion to Foreman twice.

Just like Frazier, Norton climbed off the canvas multiple times. Three times before Foreman stopped him in the second round. The EXACT same round Frazier was stopped in.

Do I really need to spoon feed this to anyone?

And secondly...

You need to educate yourself on Shaver's record if you don't think he never beat any "top notch" fighters.

It took him a grand total of 5 rounds (Combined) to beat Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young and Joe Bugner, the Bugner thrashing when Shaver's was 37 years old.

I would love... LOVE to see Frazier replace Norton against Shaver's in 79' or go against Cooney in 81'. I've love to see Frazier last longer than Norton at that time in his career. We got a taste of it against Jumbo Cummings.

Once again, Norton's chin was not by and far worse than Frazier's. Just because Norton chose to take dangerous matches when his chin was known to be vulnerable isn't a mark against him, any more than Frazier avoiding certain powerful punchers is on against him.
The "Bugner thrashing" was a cut eye stoppage in the second round.Bugner was down in the first but ok when the fight was stopped,plus he was at 245 considerably out of shape.

[mcvey]

I happen to think that the third Ali / Norton fight was a terrible decision and that Norton was robbed. I think he won at least 10 - 5 and more like 11 - 4. What do you guys think ?
I thought the fight was pretty close scoring from TV,Ive seen a lot worse decisions,but I would have given the edge to Norton,just.

[MRBILL]

Robbery? No, not even close.... The fight itself was close and it was either man's fight going into round 15, in which all Norton did was chase after a moving and jabbing Ali to blow the final round.... If Ali wasn't so popular and remarkable as a true champion, he probably would've still retained his title with a draw...

Bottom Line... I'd give Norton the benefit of a draw verdict at best, but no way did he really beat Ali to the point in which one can scream robbery on the cards....

All in All, The '76 rubber match at Yankee Stadium wasn't really all that great of a fight anyway.... No knockdowns, cuts or even a serious war of attrition in any particular rd of the scheduled 15 rounder....

Ali was in great shape at age 34 and 221 pounds, as was the 31 year old Norton at 217 1/ 2 pounds..... Ali used every trick in the book to go all 15 rds and to get the nod, while Norton was indeed motivated as well to get the job done, but also too predictable and he also sometimes failed to let his hands go in crucial moments of the fight in order to sway the changes in his favor....

IMO.

MR.BILL

[Vince Voltage]

Yes, a major robbery, a popularity contest, that has warped heavyweight history for all time. Ali gets way too much credit for the 1970's, when the truth is he got his ass kicked several times. It was a gift to Muhammad by an adoring public that felt he was still owed for being exiled years earlier.

And contrary to the myth some perpetuate that Ali pulled it out in the 15th...Norton won the 15th. Ali's jabs were missing, his dancing useless, and while Norton was overly cautious and picked his shots, when he threw, he landed, and often hard.

[prime]

Robbery? No, not even close.... The fight itself was close and it was either man's fight going into round 15, in which all Norton did was chase after a moving and jabbing Ali to blow the final round.... If Ali wasn't so popular and remarkable as a true champion, he probably would've still retained his title with a draw...

Bottom Line... I'd give Norton the benefit of a draw verdict at best, but no way did he really beat Ali to the point in which one can scream robbery on the cards....

All in All, The '76 rubber match at Yankee Stadium wasn't really all that great of a fight anyway.... No knockdowns, cuts or even a serious war of attrition in any particular rd of the scheduled 15 rounder....

Ali was in great shape at age 34 and 221 pounds, as was the 31 year old Norton at 217 1/ 2 pounds..... Ali used every trick in the book to go all 15 rds and to get the nod, while Norton was indeed motivated as well to get the job done, but also too predictable and he also sometimes failed to let his hands go in crucial moments of the fight in order to sway the changes in his favor....

IMO.

MR.BILL

Thank you, sir. Good recap.

As in every Ali-Norton fight, the final round was key.

Here, the bout was close. It seemed a rippling Norton could tear through a seemingly soft, mummified Ali at any time in the fight.

Except he never did. Because he couldn't.

Contrary to popular belief, Ali was throwing all night. Yes, he threw a truckload of punches. Norton respected Ali. He knew Ali was full of tricks and all night he was wary of punching himself out or getting caught with a sharp, definitive right hand.

And Ali, as befits a wily diminished champion, played to his strengths. He showed up in great shape (for his condition); mixed the many tactics at his command; and threw and threw, knowing boxing is won on points--punches landed. Many pecks landing lightly can carry the day over several heavy blows landed on arms, a few landing on body and head, particularly if you are the champion, holding off a challenge. Whoever does not understand this does not understand what an all-time great does--use every legitimate resource to win--and is no Muhammad Ali! :thumbsup

[red cobra]

I agree with everything said one of the worst. I am an Ali fan but lets face reality.
The judges were also Ali fans, and they had no concept of reality.

[lufcrazy]

A terrible decision. I don't care if norton took the last round off, it wasn't close enough to make any difference at all.

Between this fight and the holmes fight norton was ruling the roost as far as i'm concerned.

Ali and leon were paper champs and most people realise the reality.

There is more to being a champion than "beating the man" a champ has to uphold his status against high ranked opposition without the bullshit of gift decisions.

[manbearpig]

A terrible decision. I don't care if norton took the last round off, it wasn't close enough to make any difference at all.

Between this fight and the holmes fight norton was ruling the roost as far as i'm concerned.

Ali and leon were paper champs and most people realise the reality.

There is more to being a champion than "beating the man" a champ has to uphold his status against high ranked opposition without the bullshit of gift decisions.

So have you reassessed your outlook on Jack Dempsey?

[lufcrazy]

So have you reassessed your outlook on Jack Dempsey?

Well on the holyfield, frazier, dempsey, liston thread I had dempsey listed 3rd. Puts him outside my top ten.

[jaffay]

My card:

Ali - Norton III

1 10-9
2 9-10
3 9-10
4 9-10
5 9-10
6 9-10
7 9-10
8 9-10
9 10-9
10 10-9
11 10-9
12 10-9
13 10-9
14 9-10
15 10-9

142 - 143 Norton

[Bokaj]

My card:

Ali - Norton III

1 10-9
2 9-10
3 9-10
4 9-10
5 9-10
6 9-10
7 9-10
8 9-10
9 10-9
10 10-9
11 10-9
12 10-9
13 10-9
14 9-10
15 10-9

142 - 143 Norton

I had Norton by a point, too.

[Bokaj]

There is more to being a champion than "beating the man" a champ has to uphold his status against high ranked opposition without the bullshit of gift decisions.

Yeah, by taking them on in the first place.:hey

[lufcrazy]

Yeah, by taking them on in the first place.:hey

Ofcourse. The champ also needs to cleanly beat them.

Ali didn't deserve the norton fight so should have lost his belt. Struggling against shavers and losing to neon isn't the work of a champion imo.

By the time of the ali-neon rematch the top two were clearly norton-holmes imo.

[manbearpig]

Last time I watched it I had it to Ali by a round or two I think. Was a while ago though, and I worship Ali, so my card most likely wasn't as fair as most.

[Bokaj]

Ofcourse. The champ also needs to cleanly beat them.

Ali didn't deserve the norton fight so should have lost his belt. Struggling against shavers and losing to neon isn't the work of a champion imo.

By the time of the ali-neon rematch the top two were clearly norton-holmes imo.

Norton, sure. Don't know if Holmes had proven himself the second best by that time, though. But Ali's claim to be the top dog was not at all clear cut even before losing to Spinks, that's true.

[lufcrazy]

Norton, sure. Don't know if Holmes had proven himself the second best by that time, though. But Ali's claim to be the top dog was not at all clear cut even before losing to Spinks, that's true.

I've been thinking the same, reading his resume nothing much exists before norton, however he was top ranked for some reason. Maybe it's a result of a weak division coming to an end.

[Bokaj]

I've been thinking the same, reading his resume nothing much exists before norton, however he was top ranked for some reason. Maybe it's a result of a weak division coming to an end.

The other top contenders had more or less eliminated each other. Lyle had beaten Shavers, but lost to Young, and Young lost to Norton. So by beating Shavers, Holmes pulled to the front of the queu for meeting Norton,

I think that was a very good bunch of top contenders, and not many would beat all of them, since they offered so different challnges.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Norton, sure. Don't know if Holmes had proven himself the second best by that time, though. But Ali's claim to be the top dog was not at all clear cut even before losing to Spinks, that's true.

Well, Larry's win over Norton meant he was more proven than Spinks at the very least. While we're on that fight, it's always puzzled me that more ringsiders had Norton ahead...it's always looked a clear win for Peanut Head in my book.

[Bokaj]

Well, Larry's win over Norton meant he was more proven than Spinks at the very least.

We were talking about going in to Norton-Holmes, but it does seem reasonable Holmes got that shot after beating Shavers like he did. But outside of that his record was thin at the time.

While we're on that fight, it's always puzzled me that more ringsiders had Norton ahead...it's always looked a clear win for Peanut Head in my book.

I've only watched it once in it's entirity and then I had Holmes winning by a point. It still felt as clear as such a narrow win can feel, though. But it was a fight where Holmes did most of the work behind an excellent jab, but Norton was the aggressor and landed the biggest shots. Such fights can be viewed quite differently depending on personal preferences.

It's very rarely I see someone having this fight for Norton, though.

[My dinner with Conteh]

We were talking about going in to Norton-Holmes, but it does seem reasonable Holmes got that shot after beating Shavers like he did. But outside of that his record was thin at the time..

Maybe that's what you meant mate but you did answer to the statement, "By the time of the Neon Leon rematch", which was after Holmes won the crown.


It's very rarely I see someone having this fight for Norton, though.

Me too, these days anyway. They did at ringside though.

[Bokaj]

Maybe that's what you meant mate but you did answer to the statement, "By the time of the Neon Leon rematch", which was after Holmes won the crown.

Ok. I thought it was the other way around date-wise.

[Drew101]

I guess I'm in the minority on this, because I thought the fight could have gone either way.

Norton didn't exactly set the world on fire that night, and allowed Ali to steal a number of rounds that he could have banked simply by being more active. Also, while his punches were heavier, they didn't really affect Ali all that much, so I'm not inclined to give them greater worth than any of the punches that the champion.

So, while the result is open to debate, it's hardly comparable to highway robberies like Whitaker-Ramirez 1, or Escarlera-Everett, in my opinion.

[MRBILL]

What was a bigger injustice in a major heavyweight title fight, was it Ali's narrow points win over Norton at Yankee Stadium in 1976 or when Lewis and Holyfield fought to a 12 round draw in Vegas later on in 1999???
:deal:huh:roll:
MR.BILL
:admin:tong

[Kalasinn]

Ken got shafted, i hate corrupt judging.

[Mendoza]

Yes it was a robbery and the police are still after the judges.

[lufcrazy]

The other top contenders had more or less eliminated each other. Lyle had beaten Shavers, but lost to Young, and Young lost to Norton. So by beating Shavers, Holmes pulled to the front of the queu for meeting Norton,

I think that was a very good bunch of top contenders, and not many would beat all of them, since they offered so different challnges.

yeah it was the end of the era with the big matches coming to an end.

beating shavers probably did leapfrog him, well it di do but probably deservedly so.

[KuRuPT]

Norton clearly won... I'm not sure how anybody can disagree with that. Was it the worst decision I've ever seen... no.. was it obvious to Ali and most everybody Norton won.. yes

[lufcrazy]

the worst decision I've ever seen personally is lara v williams. at one point I was fearing for williams health taking blow after blow cleanly, astounded at the decision, even the draw card, couldn't believe it.

heard some people say oquendo v byrd is a robbery but I actually disagree with that one, I scored it for Byrd.

[Kalasinn]

the worst decision I've ever seen personally is lara v williams. at one point I was fearing for williams health taking blow after blow cleanly, astounded at the decision, even the draw card, couldn't believe it.

heard some people say oquendo v byrd is a robbery but I actually disagree with that one, I scored it for Byrd.

I scored it for Byrd too. :good

[lufcrazy]

I scored it for Byrd too. :good

:happy I thought i was going mad because I'd heard people say fres should have won a shut out and it's the worst decision they'd seen but when scoring it I felt Byrd won more rounds.

[Kalasinn]

:happy I thought i was going mad because I'd heard people say fres should have won a shut out and it's the worst decision they'd seen but when scoring it I felt Byrd won more rounds.

It's because the general forum is full of Byrd-haters, so they always want to discredit him.

[hhascup]

This was not a robbery. A few of the top officials that scored this bout, had it for Ali. I talked to both Mercante and Lederman after this bout and they had no trouble with there decision.

referee: Arthur Mercante 8-6-1 Ali
judge: Harold Lederman 8-7 Ali
judge: Barney Smith 8-7 Ali

Unofficial AP scorecard - 9-6 Ali
Unofficial UPI scorecard - 8-7 Norton

I have talked to many people that saw the bout live and several say they had Norton winning and several had it for Ali, But almost everyone had it close, so it was no robbery.

[lufcrazy]

It's because the general forum is full of Byrd-haters, so they always want to discredit him.

it's weird, but I find him the best stylistic HW I've watched. Evading punches at close range like that is amazing.

I think in the pocket defence is my favourite style.

[he grant]

This was not a robbery. A few of the top officials that scored this bout, had it for Ali. I talked to both Mercante and Lederman after this bout and they had no trouble with there decision.

referee: Arthur Mercante 8-6-1 Ali
judge: Harold Lederman 8-7 Ali
judge: Barney Smith 8-7 Ali

Unofficial AP scorecard - 9-6 Ali
Unofficial UPI scorecard - 8-7 Norton

I have talked to many people that saw the bout live and several say they had Norton winning and several had it for Ali, But almost everyone had it close, so it was no robbery.

How many judges have you ever heard afterwords say they blew it ? The press was overwhelmingly for Norton and no one knew it better than Ali who knew he was a loser at the bell ....

look t 3:10 on ...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[he grant]

What was a bigger injustice in a major heavyweight title fight, was it Ali's narrow points win over Norton at Yankee Stadium in 1976 or when Lewis and Holyfield fought to a 12 round draw in Vegas later on in 1999???
:deal:huh:roll:
MR.BILL
:admin:tong

Norton's loss was much worse ... at lest Lennox retained a title ... Norton was manipulated for another year plus as Ali did everything possible to avoid ever having to fight him again ... when he lost to Spinks he publically begged for a rematch rather than Leon giving Norton the shot he deserved as number 1 .. he knew Norton would crush Spinks and that he'd never regain the title from Norton ...

[MagnaNasakki]

I recently gave it to Ken by a point...I can't call that a robbery.

[Vince Voltage]

It has always been bullshit hypocrisy, this stuff about the challenger having to overwhelm a champion to take his title by decision. Norton-Holmes has already been mentioned. What about Leonard-Hagler? Haugen-Pazienza? Haye-Valuev?

Let's face it: close decisions USUALLY go to the popular fighter. Not always, but usually. It doesn't matter if you're the champ or not, if you're liked by the people, you'll often get the nod. I hate this, and to me Ali was the ultimate benefiter of this tendency. You had to break his jaw, knock him down, pummel the fuck out of him to win a decision....and even then, it might be split!!

[MagnaNasakki]

It has always been bullshit hypocrisy, this stuff about the challenger having to overwhelm a champion to take his title by decision. Norton-Holmes has already been mentioned. What about Leonard-Hagler? Haugen-Pazienza? Haye-Valuev?

Let's face it: close decisions USUALLY go to the popular fighter. Not always, but usually. It doesn't matter if you're the champ or not, if you're liked by the people, you'll often get the nod. I hate this, and to me Ali was the ultimate benefiter of this tendency. You had to break his jaw, knock him down, pummel the fuck out of him to win a decision....and even then, it might be split!!

I agree with the gist of your point, but I'd argue strongly that he had a case for each and every one of those "gifts". Judges are absolutely swayed by a fighters overall aura, but when you are ringside analyzing a live fight closely, its hard to manufacture a gift win from absolutely nothing- Decisions like that are much rarer than a close fight going the wrong way.

I don't think any of Ali's wins fall into the robbery category.

[Vince Voltage]

I get your point, too.
You know, this would be interesting: we have a lot of tech-saavy guys on this site. Is there anyone that can compile footage of Ali actually landing clean, crisp shots in this fight...compile every single punch, I mean. Honestly, I think it would be difficult to do, because there wouldn't be too much to work with. Flicking, glancing jabs are not impressive. But if someone could show me those cleans punches that I seem to be missing, that would be awesome. Most of Ali's blows seem like slaps, pokes, punches that are scoring only in the strictest definition of a scoring blow. Not that Norton was landing like Mike Tyson on Marvis Frazier either, but his punches seemed much more noticeable and clearly defined to me.
I would say it was not a horrendous robbery, but a robbery nonetheless.

[hhascup]

How many judges have you ever heard afterwords say they blew it ? The press was overwhelmingly for Norton and no one knew it better than Ali who knew he was a loser at the bell ....

look t 3:10 on ...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Well, looking at the last round, I would say that Ali won it. Norton didn't land anything until the last half minute of the round, and they didn't do too much.

The announcer there was Dick Young, who disliked Ali.

Dick Young's longstanding dislike for Muhammad Ali came to an end when he reconciled with the fighter around 1986. According to Ziegler, "[He] realized that beneath his slick surface, Ali was a decent man, devoted to his family and possessed of courage and athletic skill."

[Kalasinn]

it's weird, but I find him the best stylistic HW I've watched. Evading punches at close range like that is amazing.

I think in the pocket defence is my favourite style.

Imagine '03 Toney at a trim 217lbs against the '00/'01 Peak Byrd who beat Vitali & Tua! :bbb

[Stevie G]

No, that is not up for debate. I don't know if he was shot so much as just lazy, though. He was very underprepared for that fight. It's really just another testiment to that he should've quit after Manilla.

I would like to see a younger, better prepared Ali against Young, though. If feel that Young would have presented Ali with difficulties at any stage of his career, actually. He was very, very slick.
True. Jimmy would never have been an easy nut to crack. The Ali of the 1973 Norton rematch,though,would have decisively beaten a 1976 Young by a competitive but clear decision.

[lufcrazy]

Imagine '03 Toney at a trim 217lbs against the '00/'01 Peak Byrd who beat Vitali & Tua! :bbb

yeah it's a shame with Byrd that when he finally got his shot, he had to face back to back K brothers.

I'd say his peak ended with the holyfield fight, there was a decline in every fight from then I believe, although Byrd in round 12 of Mccline looked as good as ever IMO.

Yeah that toney V Peak Byrd would be something special. I love them chess matches.

My favourite match up is counter punchers v pressure fighters. guaranteed to have fireworks.

[Stevie G]

I've opined on several occasions that although I feel Muhammad only,genuinely,got one victory over Ken in their trilogy,I do feel that the third fight was NOT a robbery. Yes.....Ken deserved about nine rounds out of the fifteen,but a lot of the sessions were fairly close. A controversial decision ? Indeed. A robbery ? Bit of an overdramatisation.

The first Ramirez-Whitaker fight,to name but one,was a robbery.

[round15]

There weren't enough rounds in this fight to justify Ali as the decision winner. Ali was handed this victory because boxing needed his name to keep the sport popular. It's almost safe to say Ken Norton wouldn't win this fight unless he took it out of the hands of the judges.

This was a horrible decision right up there with Whitaker vs Chavez, Delahoya vs Sturm and Lewis vs Holyfield I.

[MRBILL]

Norton's loss was much worse ... at lest Lennox retained a title ... Norton was manipulated for another year plus as Ali did everything possible to avoid ever having to fight him again ... when he lost to Spinks he publically begged for a rematch rather than Leon giving Norton the shot he deserved as number 1 .. he knew Norton would crush Spinks and that he'd never regain the title from Norton ...

By 1977, nobody wanted to see Ali fight either Frazier or Norton for a 4th time..... '77 was suppose to be "Ali-Foreman 2," but Foreman choked against James Young down in Rico and left boxing for a decade.... So, in comes Ernesto Shavers as the next big name opponent for Ali... The win over Shavers was Ali's last true great effort in the ring.....

MR.BILL:thumbsup

[manbearpig]

No.

Round 1 - Ali. Not much happens. Norton has one good body shot. Rest of work by Ali (3-4 good lead rights to the head)
Round 2 - Even. Ali covering up for first minute or so of round. Norton has a couple decent overhand rights land, and good body work. Ali comes back into it and puts Norton into his shell with crisp onetwos. Seems to hurt Norton.
Round 3 - Ali. Norton lands best punch of round - hard right to the head, but Ali has the activity, and made Norton miss with a lot while doing the pitty patty stuff. Ali round for me
Round 4 - Norton. Solid combinations by Ali at start of round landed. Good defence again by Muhammad, blocking most of Norton's work. Good hard overhand right landed by Norton though. Solid punches by Norton towards end of round.
Round 5 - Norton. Clearest round to score so far for me. Ali covering up on ropes. Good work by Norton. Ali taking a rest, it seems.
Round 6 - Norton. Another clowning round by Ali, with Norton doing the work. Damages Ali with a good body shot near end.
Round 7 - Ali. Ali comes out much more lively. Keeping away from Norton's right. Ali lands a good couple of combinations. Makes Norton miss a lot. Good Ali round.
Round 8 - Even. Norton stalks Ali. Lands mostly on gloves/shoulders of Ali while he lays against ropes though. Good body shot landed at mid way point. Decent uppercut landed by Ali. No real round winner evident.
Round 9 - Ali. Dancing brought into it. Norton is really ineffective when Ali is on move and jabbing. Good onetwo landed by Ali. Overhand landed by Ken in last 30 seconds. Not enough to turn round. Clear Ali round for me.
Round 10 - Even. Even round to midway point. Ali dancing and tying up Norton well when he stops moving. Good left landed by Ali. Close round. Last 30 seconds has Norton winging in his wild rights and missing. Drawn round. Neither did enough.
Round 11 - Ali. More flat footed Ali. Norton against ropes. Good defensive work done by Norton. Good hard right landed by Ali in last minute. Norton continues to go to the body and throw wild rights (missing)
Round 12 - Norton. Norton doing the work, Ali taking a rest it seems. Ali starts firing back in last minute. Not enough to change round.
Round 13 - Norton. Even round for first 2 minutes. Good exchange near end of round, give and take. Ali landed more shorts, Norton landed harder shots.
Round 14 - Even. Norton lands a few solid single shots. Ali lands a nice combo in middle of round. Last minute is a bit scrappy, no real decisive blows landed.
Round 15 - Ali. Dancing works for Ali again. Leaves Norton ineffective for first half of round with Ali jabbing from outside. Norton lands a decent right when he catches Ali close to ropes at the halfway mark. Ali continues dancing with Norton making wild lunges. Norton lands some hard single shots at end. Not enough.

6-5-4

[RockyJim]

Ali "won" that fight with Norton by way of his name...if Norton had been fighting Joe Blow that night in NYC...he would have been the new champ...

[red cobra]

Ali-Norton was robbery, out and out. Shame on boxing for that travesty....but actually, Young beat Ali before that.

[johnmaff36]

Jesus, here we go again with robberies and conspiracies. I can only speak for myself but, to me, a robbery is if a guy beats another guy decisively and consistently over at least 2/3rds of a fight, be it 10,12,15 round fight. Norton did neither. Again, yes it was close, and in a lot of peoples books it went to the final round, a round in which Norton simply didnt do enough to win. Ali put it in and Norton didnt, its there for all to see. Personally i didnt think he needed the last round.

[manbearpig]

Did Young fuck beat Ali. Scorecards for both? Fair play to Luf for posting his. The Young fight was horrible, and no chance did Young do enough to win.

[Goyourownway]

No,it wasn't.Putting it in the same sentence as De La Hoya-Sturm,Holyfield-Lewis and Chavez-Whitaker is beyond retarded,because any dominance Norton held in that fight slipped away after the eighth round.There were many tight,closely contested rounds in this fight,and swing-rounds should always acknowledged.I do agree that Norton deserved the decision,however.



As for the Young fight - I had Young a very convincing winner.

[james442]

How about Young-Norton? Jimmy Young was ROBBED!

[darling dame]

I had norton winning 3 by 9-6,I had Jimmy young beating Ali by 4 rds.:smoke

[manbearpig]

I had norton winning 3 by 9-6,I had Jimmy young beating Ali by 4 rds.:smoke

Got your cards for both handy?

[Stevie G]

Mt asssessments for all Ali-Norton fights and Muhammad's one with Young.


Norton 7-4-1
Ali 7-5
Norton 9-6

Ali/Young 7-7-1

Muhammad and Jimmy's fight was a devil to score !

[RoosterC]

I had Ken Norton winning 10-5

[rodney]

I was there. It wasn't a great fight. Norton Didnt do alot. Ali did what he had to to win. Definately no robbery.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Absolutley not. It was all down to the last round, whoever won the 15th won the fight.

:rofl

[MRBILL]

I was there. It wasn't a great fight. Norton Didnt do alot. Ali did what he had to to win. Definately no robbery.


I said that way before.... Norton did apply the pressure, but, he wasn't always punching when he needed to in order to sway the judges.... Norton chased and posed too much, in my book...... Ali flicked jabs and lobbed rights, but they connected and scored for the most part....... Norton stroked his meat in round 15..... BIG MISTAKE!
:deal:hey
Ali either deserved the win or a draw...... No loss for Ali......:happy

MR.BILL

[johnmaff36]

I was there. It wasn't a great fight. Norton Didnt do alot. Ali did what he had to to win. Definately no robbery.

This:deal.

[Stevie G]

Speaking as an out and out Muhammad Ali fan,I do think that he was lucky in getting the verdict in the third bout. But a lot of the rounds were close,and,as I've often stated,to call it a robbery is overdramatising things.

Not the most spectacular of bouts to watch. The best of their trilogy,by far,is the second one,in my opinion. That was also very close,but Muhammad DEFINITELY deserved the verdict in that one.

[mhubbard]

There is actual footage of Ali admitting that he lost the 3rd fight with Norton. Ali should have retired after the 3rd Frazier fight.

[timmers612]

This post has been around the block for quite the while, post back you will see Sweet Pea's words. The Wide World of Sports panel that viewed the bout a week after with Norton present came up with a draw decision which suprised Ken. Even going into the last round and using Mercante's method of scoring a round by each minute,,,,in the first minute Ken threw one jab that missed, Ali landed three jabs. In the second minute Ken threw three punches, landing one jab while Ali landed four jabs. In the last minute Ali landed three jabs while Ken landed eight punches, four of them hard but not overwhelmingly so, Ali wasn't hurt and as said landed a few light ones of his own. For those who say the last round is a controversy, they have to discount the first two minutes of it.

[RoosterC]

The fight was a blowout, only Ali nut huggers would say it was an Ali win or a draw. Easily the worst decision in boxing history.

[Stevie G]

After all these years,I still can't get over Norton's corner instructing Ken to err on the side of caution coming out for the fifteenth. That could have had a bearing on the result.

[he grant]

This post has been around the block for quite the while, post back you will see Sweet Pea's words. The Wide World of Sports panel that viewed the bout a week after with Norton present came up with a draw decision which suprised Ken. Even going into the last round and using Mercante's method of scoring a round by each minute,,,,in the first minute Ken threw one jab that missed, Ali landed three jabs. In the second minute Ken threw three punches, landing one jab while Ali landed four jabs. In the last minute Ali landed three jabs while Ken landed eight punches, four of them hard but not overwhelmingly so, Ali wasn't hurt and as said landed a few light ones of his own. For those who say the last round is a controversy, they have to discount the first two minutes of it.

Yes , and I clearly remember the sheepish grins on everyone's faces as the host tried to assure everyone that this was "not a setup." .... he was unsuccessful ...

Norton was the aggressor through out the fight. Norton landed the harder punches, Norton handed the more effective punches ... Ali threw a pitter pat jabs and occasional crosses that could not crack an egg ... at the bell his entire corner looked like loser ... Ali himself look more dejected than Louis did after the first Walcott bout ... the overwhelming press coverage all favored Norton ... it was a robbery ... he got the decision because his name was ALi ...

[Stevie G]

Yes , and I clearly remember the sheepish grins on everyone's faces as the host tried to assure everyone that this was "not a setup." .... he was unsuccessful ...

Norton was the aggressor through out the fight. Norton landed the harder punches, Norton handed the more effective punches ... Ali threw a pitter pat jabs and occasional crosses that could not crack an egg ... at the bell his entire corner looked like loser ... Ali himself look more dejected than Louis did after the first Walcott bout ... the overwhelming press coverage all favored Norton ... it was a robbery ... he got the decision because his name was ALi ...
What's your view on my earlier thread about Norton's corner ballsing up,and telling Ken to be careful in the final round ?

[manbearpig]

The fight was a blowout, only Ali nut huggers would say it was an Ali win or a draw. Easily the worst decision in boxing history.

I am a nut hugger, but clearly no. A massive no.

[johnmaff36]

Yes , and I clearly remember the sheepish grins on everyone's faces as the host tried to assure everyone that this was "not a setup." .... he was unsuccessful ...

Norton was the aggressor through out the fight. Norton landed the harder punches, Norton handed the more effective punches ... Ali threw a pitter pat jabs and occasional crosses that could not crack an egg ... at the bell his entire corner looked like loser ... Ali himself look more dejected than Louis did after the first Walcott bout ... the overwhelming press coverage all favored Norton ... it was a robbery ... he got the decision because his name was ALi ...
Not nitpicking here mate, but are you sure your talking bout the 3rd fight with regards to Ali and his corner looking dejected and shit. I remember the end of the 2nd fight being like that, think Ali even flicked his glove at drew brown. Maybe im wrong.

[he grant]

What's your view on my earlier thread about Norton's corner ballsing up,and telling Ken to be careful in the final round ?

Likely not wise ... in addition, since Ali had not seriously hurt him once in 38 previous rounds it makes little sense ... I still find it a non issue ... I feel Norton was far ahead ...

[manbearpig]

Loads of people saying stuff like "terrible robbery" and "Norton was far ahead"

Any chance of a scorecard then so I can see if I am really just being biased as fuck. It was a close fight which depends on how you judge it in my opinion. Ali landed more, Norton landed harder. It's not clear cut at all.

[leverage]

Frazier only lost to Foreman among huge punchers :huh

Heck he only lost to Ali n' Foreman period.
That's the truth. Frazier never froze up against anyone because he wasn't afraid of anyone. He was simply physically overmatch against foreman and couldn't beat him once if they fought 100 times. Foreman was too big, too strong and hit too hard, plain and simple. To compare frazier to norton (who matched up way better to foreman physically) in that respect is totally unfair.

[manbearpig]

so the folk with the strongest opinions don't have a card. Good one. Too busy reading about fights to watch them I suppose!

[Stevie G]

Not nitpicking here mate, but are you sure your talking bout the 3rd fight with regards to Ali and his corner looking dejected and shit. I remember the end of the 2nd fight being like that, think Ali even flicked his glove at drew brown. Maybe im wrong.
After the second fight I recall Howard Cosell sticking the mic in Muhammad's face. Muhammad tugged at Howard's toupee in retalliation :lol:

Muhammad looked tense and expectant awaiting the decision to be announced after fight number 2. After the third one,he looked pissed off and resigned,giving a relieved and slightly surprised smile when he was named as the winner.

[Stevie G]

Loads of people saying stuff like "terrible robbery" and "Norton was far ahead"

Any chance of a scorecard then so I can see if I am really just being biased as fuck. It was a close fight which depends on how you judge it in my opinion. Ali landed more, Norton landed harder. It's not clear cut at all.
As I keep saying,I think Norton may have earned the win due to workrate,but it was a long way off a robbery.

[edward morbius]

I haven't read what others have said,

my own take is that it not a horrendous robbery, but I had Norton slightly ahead.

[Stevie G]

After the second fight I recall Howard Cosell sticking the mic in Muhammad's face. Muhammad tugged at Howard's toupee in retalliation :lol:

Muhammad looked tense and expectant awaiting the decision to be announced after fight number 2. After the third one,he looked pissed off and resigned,giving a relieved and slightly surprised smile when he was named as the winner.

Bundini was jabbering away in Ali's ear,and this seemed to piss Muhammad off so he took a swing at him. Luckily for Bundini,it did n't connect properly !

[Stevie G]

I haven't read what others have said,

my own take is that it not a horrendous robbery, but I had Norton slightly ahead.
Which is about the size of it,edward.

[manbearpig]

It definitely is mate, since the people who are talking about robberies aren't taking the time to do a card. I am biased, as I love Ali, but even then, it's a close, close fight. My card is up, with descriptions of why I gave rounds. I'm only asking for that in return.

[timmers612]

Yes , and I clearly remember the sheepish grins on everyone's faces as the host tried to assure everyone that this was "not a setup." .... he was unsuccessful ...

Norton was the aggressor through out the fight. Norton landed the harder punches, Norton handed the more effective punches ... Ali threw a pitter pat jabs and occasional crosses that could not crack an egg ... at the bell his entire corner looked like loser ... Ali himself look more dejected than Louis did after the first Walcott bout ... the overwhelming press coverage all favored Norton ... it was a robbery ... he got the decision because his name was ALi ...

I am assuming your talking about the panel that viewed, with Kenny present, the third bout a week after they fought. Each round was played and each of the experts voted and explained their votes. After the fifteen rounds their cards together came up a draw, which while suprising Ken, is the assessment of many seasoned fans and the judges also who had it a draw going into the last round, which I did also. Many of the rounds Ali took with those pity pat jabs and crosses were because Ken didn't throw enough in return to edge them his way, such as the last round where in the first two and a half minutes he landed an entire,,,one jab. Ali landed in that time, pitty pat or not, eight times and with it the round.

[mhubbard]

I have footage at home that has Ali admitting that he lost the third fight with Norton.

[Stevie G]

It definitely is mate, since the people who are talking about robberies aren't taking the time to do a card. I am biased, as I love Ali, but even then, it's a close, close fight. My card is up, with descriptions of why I gave rounds. I'm only asking for that in return.
I love Ali too. A definite one off.

[Cheese]

Let's be honest Norton won all 3 fights with Ali. But because he was Ali they gave it to him. Norton didn't have to make adjustments in my opinion. He performed the same tactic. He continued to stick Ali with the jab and throw his timing off. That's was all Norton did to get the advantage.

[Abdullah]

I must be in the minority on this one, but I completely agree with the judges. I had Ali winning close and if Norton had won close, I wouldn't make a fuss, but robbery??? No0o0o. Watch it again.

[timmers612]

Cheese, honestly many seasoned boxing men thought Ali won the last two, me included, and many thought Norton did the same. Bottom line, Norton lost them by the judges, nuff said.

Abdullah, I agree entirely.

[The Spider]

I happen to think that the third Ali / Norton fight was a terrible decision and that Norton was robbed. I think he won at least 10 - 5 and more like 11 - 4. What do you guys think ?

Like most I am an Ali fan, and agree with you. Kenny Norton could & should have been the only fighter ever to beat Ali twice. He was robbed of a far bigger place in boxing history that night.