Tyson v Ruddock 1 - a fair stoppage?

[fists of fury]

Thanks to the wonderful invention that is youtube, I finally got to see the one of very few Tyson fights I have not yet seen.

If one remembers, this stoppage by Richard Steele was seen as very controversial, and for years afterward Steele had to endure catcalls of "Stop the fight Richard!"
Having read pages and pages of peoples' opinions over the years, my verdict is that the stoppage was premature.

Tyson hit Ruddock with a left hook which wobbled him, and a right, a left and another right (all of which were not well-timed and were grazing) had Donovan reeling into the ropes. At that point Steele, not even bothering to look at Ruddock, stops Tyson in his tracks and waves it off.
My gut feeling is that Ruddock was finished at that point, but surely he should have been given the benefit of the doubt here? I mean, a man does have the right to try and defend himself surely? As a matter of fact, Tyson should have been given the chance to end the fight convincingly, no?

What are your feelings on the matter?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Awful stoppage. Typical Steele-King shenanigans.

[TBooze]

Awful stoppage. Typical Steele-King shenanigans.

You can never have an awful stoppage when a fight is stopped too soon IYO. Steele has the most important '0' in boxing: no ring deaths on his shift...

As this fight showed, nobody lost out, both made good money in a rematch.

[JohnThomas1]

Bad stoppage.

[ChrisPontius]

That stoppage was even more premature than the 'stoppage' that happened during the first time i got laid.

I thought the other often-discussed stoppage of Steele was rightful, though.

[Holmes' Jab]

Agree with the above posters, pretty poor stoppage. Despite saying that Razor didn't really show enough that he was fighting back/defending himself, though. I don't think Ruddock seemed to be too hurt at the time the fight was stopped. Would Ruddock have weathered the storm had he been allowed to continue? I suppose unless you let him do so you'll never know. Personally I would have given him that chance, though I'm sure Stelle took his decision on safety ground.


Ironically I watched the rematch for the first time in ages last night. It was a very goog slug-fest that fight, high octane stuff. Tyson won the early rounds and Ruddock didn't start that well, he seemed on the edge of defeat a few times when Tyson knocked him down in the second fourth, but Mike just failed to find the shots to finish it.

The fight became alot more even entering the mid-rounds, Ruddock gained a foothold was alot more successful with his jab, catching Tyson clean on more than a few occasions with hooks and disrupting his rythmn. What impressed me most was Tysons chin, some of the shots we walked through were chilling. The low blow decuctions certainly made thing interesting and depite being floored again Razor fought on gamely to the end. This fight proved two things: the resiliance of Tyson chin and Ruddocks heart.

How did you score the rematch?

[MrFoFody]

I though it was fair. Tyson had Ruddock reeling from quite a few unanswered power shots and all Ruddock was able to do is flail his arms around. Sure it may have been a little premature but the end was near. Ruddock wasn't complaining at the time of the stoppage in fact, he congratulated tyson with a hug.

[DamonD]

Ruddock slumped right back against the ropes, but I could contend that he had an odd habit of completely wiping out whenever he got knocked down anyway so Steele probably should've allowed for that. Look at the knockdowns against, say, Bonecrusher and Morrison and you'd think he'd never get up from those. But he did. The fact he could immediately look at Steele and protest showed there was no slowing of his mental faculties.

So I feel it's a premature stoppage because of that...Ruddock had commedable recuperation powers.

[My dinner with Conteh]

You can never have an awful stoppage when a fight is stopped too soon IYO. Steele has the most important '0' in boxing: no ring deaths on his shift...

As this fight showed, nobody lost out, both made good money in a rematch.


So weaver-Dokes was an ok stoppage. Why not stop Snipes and Holmes? Castillo-Corrales, etc etc? Maybe when Louis went down to Braddock they should've called it off? Clay-Cooper?

[MachineGunMitch]

Steele strikes again.........I remember watching it live
and knew that ref was gonna fuck it up and he delivered

[Ted Stickles]

Awful stoppage. Typical Steele-King shenanigans.



What he said.........:good

[Doppleganger]

It's a shame. I used to rate Steele as one of the best but he's had too many dodgy decisions on his record now, of which this fight was one. I'm not even gonna mention the fight that should not be mentioned..




Oh, ok then, Chavez vs Taylor. :p Actually though, that stoppage for which Steele is much maligned for was more genuine than the Tyson Ruddock IMO.

[Sonny's jab]

It was a bad stoppage.

I defend stoppages such as Tyson-Carl Williams and Lewis-McCall 1, which others call premature, because I think the ref had to make a judgment call on a risen fighter and the fighter reacted all fucked up. But Ruddock was not getting hammered more than he had been in early moments of the fight, and he'd fired back in time on those occasions. I think he wasn't really given a chance to do that.

[TBooze]

So weaver-Dokes was an ok stoppage.

Both made good money in a rematch, that is at the end of the day what many fighters quite rightly worry about.

It is much better to stop a fight 10 punches too early, than one too late IMO.

[josak]

Bad stoppage, but Ruddock was screwed anyway. He was wobbled pretty badly. Mike would of been all over him.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Both made good money in a rematch, that is at the end of the day what many fighters quite rightly worry about.


Oh, so Weaver was ok about it was he? They couldn't have called a rematch had it gone over four rounds or something? And what about the punters? Don't they count now. :huh

[My dinner with Conteh]

As this fight showed, nobody lost out, both made good money in a rematch.


There you go again. Don't the fans lose out? Don't they count? *





* I've only just noticed this by the way. An unbelievably dumb comment. :huh

[cpnasty]

I decry Steele

[Street Lethal]

Awful stoppage. Typical Steele-King shenanigans.

I think it was his worst call ever. But do you really think there was something sinister behind it?

[TBooze]

There you go again. Don't the fans lose out? Don't they count? *





* I've only just noticed this by the way. An unbelievably dumb comment. :huh

A referee's only concern is the safety of the fighters, so no the fans do not count.

[My dinner with Conteh]

A referee's only concern is the safety of the fighters, so no the fans do not count.


But you said the fighters don't mind either, like the loser is saying "Yeah, great, as long as i'm paid i don't give two fucks".


I disagree that the fans don't count also. If a referee is 100% legit then I your point is valid of course, but they're often not. There's a history, as in many cases alluded to in this thread, that the Don King fighter is the one getting the benefit of the doubt.

[TBooze]

But you said the fighters don't mind either, like the loser is saying "Yeah, great, as long as i'm paid i don't give two fucks".


I disagree that the fans don't count also. If a referee is 100% legit then I your point is valid of course, but they're often not. There's a history, as in many cases alluded to in this thread, that the Don King fighter is the one getting the benefit of the doubt.

Everything I have seen and known about Steele tells me is 100% serious about his job.

As for pay days, yes I am sure Ruddock was annoyed at the stopage in the first fight. But the pay day he recieved for a second fight with Tyson, I am sure helped sooth his mood, it certainly soothed his passion to win.

[TBooze]

BUT its a championship fight

No, it was not;)

But that apart excellent points, except IMO Steele did not make a mistake.

[Danny]

I would say it a premature stoppage, but only to a certain extent. It's the referee's job to stop the fight when he feels it's correct to do so.

Ruddock took some big shots from Tyson in the seventh, & I think it's fair to say that we would all rather an early stoppage than a late one. Prevention is better than cure! If Steele didn't step in when he did, I think it's fair to say that Tyson would have provided us with a finsish that warranted a stoppage.

Tyson also showed how durable he was in the bout, particularly in the sixth. Tyson showed smart tactics by attacking the body of Ruddock throughout the duration of the fight. Mike seemed to be concentrating on going to the body, rather than the head, most of the time.

Like I say, the stoppage was some-what premature, but only to a certain degree. The behaviour of fans & the both fighters camps, were deplorable. Not a nice scene for Boxing at all.

However, we should look on the positive side of it all. The early stoppage paved the way for a rematch, making more money for people concerned, bringing another fight to the fans etc.

[godking]

premature but ruddock was on the receiving end of an asskicking in that round.

[My dinner with Conteh]

premature but ruddock was on the receiving end of an asskicking in that round.


But he wouldn't have stopped it had Tyson been in exactly the same trouble, that's why Steele's a cunt. Pity, he was boxing's best at one time..until King started delivering him secret brown envelopes.

[apollack]

Bad stoppage. A great referee doesn't stop it when it's too late, but also doesn't stop it when it is too soon. While it is better to stop it too soon than too late, it is even better to stop it right on time. Steele's big problem is that he was overly cautious and at times injected himself into fights prematurely. I'm not too hard on him for the Chavez-Taylor stoppage because he asked Mel if he was okay and Mel did not say yes, but Tyson-Ruddock, after Ruddock had shown he could take it and dish it right back...no, that was flat wrong.

[Street Lethal]

But he wouldn't have stopped it had Tyson been in exactly the same trouble, that's why Steele's a cunt. Pity, he was boxing's best at one time..until King started delivering him secret brown envelopes.

I must have misssed a news story. Can you enlightend me?

[rekcutnevets]

When the fight happened, I thouth it was a punch or so early. As I've watched the replays over time I've come to the same conclusion, but with a different excuse for Steele than I have heard before.

Fighters often talk of fighting so long, that the time clock becomes a habit. The body knows when rounds are going to end, rest periods, etc. Referees have the same clock form in their heads. (mabe steele doesn't. look at Chavez vs. Taylor)

Fights also become like dances, where fighters shift and move in a certain rythm dependent on the mood that night. One fighter comes forward, the other moves away; and you have a rythm. Two fighters come forward, you have a clinch, the referee breaks the two; and you have a rythm. After you referee as many fights as Steele, I'm sure you come to recognize rythms that are similar to that which you've encountered on other nights.

Watch the stoppage of Ruddock against Tyson. You see Tyson hurt Ruddock, and Ruddock start to go back. Ruddock's arms dropping, assuming the body language of stoppage victim. It felt like a stoppage coming on, the fans were rising as such, and both fighters were playing the part. I think the length of Ruddock's reeling backward was a step behind the rythm that Steele was feeling. I think that Steele was feeling that stoppage with muscle memory, memory recall, or whatever you want to call it; and waved it off. I think that Tyson loaded up a little, and Ruddock went back a little longer than Steele's recalled reactions were going to allow.

I don't think Steel identified a hurt fighter, and saved his life. I don't think he was protecting a King fighter. I think he was just going through the motions during a physical job, and was acting out of trained reflexes.

I thought it was a couple punches too soon, but, oh well.

[fists of fury]

Mmmm...interesting analysis there, rekcutnevets.

[hobgoblin]

Yes it was a bit early. However, since when was refereeing boxing matches an exact science? That situation was particularly tricky and there is trememendous room for error. In fact, you hear much more often about ring deaths and late stoppages than early stoppages - this is because of frequency and not just because the former is a much greater concern than the latter.

Steele was definitely within the bounds of error and for this alone I don't criticize him at all - Ruddock is just one of those weird guys who has a habit of getting his ass kicked real bad and regularly - doesn't have the energy or ability to really fight back and indicate to the ref that he is with his senses - but does have enough energy to bitch about the stoppage as soon as it is over. Are you going to argue against the stoppages of Morrison, Smith, and Lewis? He got up for all 3 - appearing to continue and was even able to immediately bitch about it. Common sense indicates that he was in grave danger with a follow up punch from those opponents if allowed to continue. I say this more to emphasize that Ruddock is a tricky fighter to judge when he's out on his feet. Ruddock had not answered to more than a handful of Tyson's punches at that time. Also, this was NOT a championship fight.

I do think that those punches were doing serious damage - they weren't exactly "grazing" IMO - they were definitely landing with authority and very quickly in combinations - this was very reminiscent of the Pinklon Thomas KO (my favorite Tyson KO although Botha KO is special for its suspense). We were deprived of a spectacular KO of Ruddock with combinations - but I don't hold Steele responsible for it as he was within bounds and it ain't an exact science.

I will say that fans bring this issue too much without acknowledging that Ruddock was indeed getting his ass kicked severely, that to AVOID overrating Tyson or giving him too much credit, people overreact to some of the success that Ruddock experienced with his power. Tyson was no anywhere near getting WOBBLED (stunned at best) let alone losing by KO. Ruddock's chances of winning were the equivalent of lightning hitting you. Now unless your the guy my friend knew who was hit by lightning three times AND his dog was also hit once, you see my drift. Ruddock should be thankful to Steele from saving him from an ass kicking that could have taken even more from him permanently and could have avoided a big payday in the rematch.

[Primadonna Kool]

Watch the entire fight Razor Ruddock was not getting his assed kicked, the round before the stoppage was his strongest round. Mike Tyson by no means was totally dominating him. Razor Ruddock did not go down, he should have been given a standing 8 count, the fight should not of been stopped.

[ironchamp]

Watch the entire fight Razor Ruddock was not getting his assed kicked, the round before the stoppage was his strongest round. Mike Tyson by no means was totally dominating him. Razor Ruddock did not go down, he should have been given a standing 8 count, the fight should not of been stopped.



A standing 8 Count would have been appropriate.

[hobgoblin]

Watch the entire fight Razor Ruddock was not getting his assed kicked, the round before the stoppage was his strongest round. Mike Tyson by no means was totally dominating him. Razor Ruddock did not go down, he should have been given a standing 8 count, the fight should not of been stopped.



I did see the entire fight. Like I said, in an attempt to avoid giving Tyson too much credit - people give Ruddock too much credit. Round 6 was a good one for Razor - he did stun Tyson. That was the best he could do. Most of the fight was a one sided beating though and for this reason alone people don't count the Ruddock fights as an example where Tyson overcame adversity and fought back well when hit hard. That fight was not close - it was competitive but not close - Tyson was winning handily and would have have continued to do so if not get the KO in round 7.

[Bazooka]

Stoppage was a bit too quick IMO, but isnt that what they had a rematch for?

[bill poster]

As I mentioned on another thread, Hagler never spoke to Steele again after the Leonard fight-plus Steele looked after Hearns in his fights

[Bigcat]

Richard had to make a call.

Looking back Razor had been in similar trouble and come back to make Mike question his own heart, In the instance of which we speak Steele saw Tyson land flush on several occasions and Razor sagged lifelessly for a breif moment before straightening himself up, by then Steele had waved it off..

If you can't convince to the referee that you are fine then there are grounds for a stoppage.. But in hindsight even Steele would probably say it could have gone a little longer..

Richard was a compassionate referee, and i beleive he thought Ruddock was in grave danger.. Maybee if it had gone on a few minutes longer Tyson may have slammed him over or even out.. Its a great debate..

The rematch was a good little fight though....

[Muchmoore]

Ruddock slumped right back against the ropes, but I could contend that he had an odd habit of completely wiping out whenever he got knocked down anyway so Steele probably should've allowed for that. Look at the knockdowns against, say, Bonecrusher and Morrison and you'd think he'd never get up from those. But he did. The fact he could immediately look at Steele and protest showed there was no slowing of his mental faculties.

So I feel it's a premature stoppage because of that...Ruddock had commedable recuperation powers.

Ruddocks recuperation powers were amazing.

[Sonny's jab]

Stoppage was a bit too quick IMO, but isnt that what they had a rematch for?

Yeah, that's right.

Tyson was actually lined up to fight Renaldo Snipes after Ruddock, but the controversy over this stoppage and public demand created the rematch.

And Ruddock did better in the rematch than I think he was ever gonna do in the first fight if Steele had let it go on.

So as bad as this stoppage was, it was completely compensated by the rematch.
Tyson proved his superiority, erased any doubts. And Ruddock got to perform even better than he had in the 1st match.
The wrong has been righted.

[DamonD]

To all intents and purposes, you are right about that...Ruddock fought better in the second fight, and lasted the distance, so that fight kinda made him look even better than the first one. It is a better, more contested fight than the first.