Sonny Liston -vs- Gene Tunney

[Holmes' Jab]

Prime-for-prime, 12 round fight.

Could Tunney stay away from/absorb the big shots for the duration and pull out a win? (ala both Dempsey fights) Alternatively could you see the 'bull' eventually nailing the 'matador' inside the distance?

Who would prevail in this one?

[Bummy Davis]

Dempsey was faster than Liston and hit just as hard and Liston had trouble with speedier boxers...Tunney could win UD but it would not be without some Danger

[McGrain]

Over 12 it's a 50/50 pick em. To close to call.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think Liston (pre Ali fights) might just stop him down the final stretch. It's not unfair to say that Dempsey was past his best in both fights vs Tunney and still gave him some uncomfortable moments.

Liston has the better jab, boxing skills and carries more pure raw power than Dempsey in my book. This ain't the lumbering out of condition guy who faced Ali by they way, we're talking the beast who decimated fighters in the calibre of Folley, Williams, Patterson and Valdes etc

[Duodenum]

Tunney's got the faster jab by far. For every one Liston launched, Tunney would deliver two or three. Liston didn't have the handspeed necessary to catch Tunney, who was utterly fearless. Sonny wouldn't have intimidated him. Eddie Machen proved that Gene had the size and toughness needed to hang with Sonny. Liston would not be able to stop Gene, and if he couldn't stop Gene, he couldn't win.

Liston would be an easier target than Dempsey was. Tunney would have seen everything coming that Liston would send his way. Bottom line is that speed kills, and Gene had more than enough to neutralize any advantage in size and strength which Liston may have enjoyed.

[Holmes' Jab]

Don't forget Liston was fantastic at cutting off the ring and narrowing angles, he was hardly the slow, lumbering fighter some paint him as.

Could Tunney really afford to dwell on those ropes for too long?

[ChrisPontius]

When did Liston showed he could cut the ring off well? He followed Ali in a straight line like a zombie.

Tunney has the tools to pull this one off (speed being the key factor), but he's a little too unproven at HW for me.

[AREA 53]

If Eddie Machen could lead Sonny a Dance, i am sure Gene Could, but he would be walking a tightrope, it might be that Gene has to concentrate on defence so much he is deemed too negative and loses on points ?

[Duodenum]

Ingo was able to blast out Machen in a single round, whereas a peak Liston couldn't do it in 12. Like Hagler, I think Sonny's power has been overestimated, but also like Marv, Liston's jab is one of his power shots. When that's combined with the ability to take a punch, whoever possesses those qualities will certainly present an awesome appearance. Also, Sonny failed twice to take out Whitehurst inside of ten rounds (although he barely missed the second time), while Archie Moore succeeded in getting Bert out within ten. Liston was tremendous in a kill or be killed scenario, but Gene wouldn't be playing that game.

Tunney was also a brilliant analyst, and like Ali, virtually impervious to body punishment. Moving in and out, he would beat Sonny to the punch repeatedly with his faster jab. Inside, he could smother Liston as he did Dempsey. He was also tough as nails, something he aptly demonstrated in the first match with Greb. Check out the ridiculous footspeed he displays after getting decked by Dempsey. If Sonny somehow managed to hurt Tunney, Gene would have more than enough ability to weather the storm, and quickly recover.

[Sonny's jab]

Tunney's got the style to beat Liston, but it would be a tough fight I'd imagine.

[Street Lethal]

I said Liston on points to be on the safe side. Eddie Machen went the distance with Liston and Machen and Tunney are about the same size and same talent level.

[robert ungurean]

I like Tunny in this one.

[Joe E]

Tunney's got the faster jab by far. For every one Liston launched, Tunney would deliver two or three. Liston didn't have the handspeed necessary to catch Tunney, who was utterly fearless. Sonny wouldn't have intimidated him. Eddie Machen proved that Gene had the size and toughness needed to hang with Sonny. Liston would not be able to stop Gene, and if he couldn't stop Gene, he couldn't win.

Liston would be an easier target than Dempsey was. Tunney would have seen everything coming that Liston would send his way. Bottom line is that speed kills, and Gene had more than enough to neutralize any advantage in size and strength which Liston may have enjoyed.Agreed.:good

[mcvey]

Don't forget Liston was fantastic at cutting off the ring and narrowing angles, he was hardly the slow, lumbering fighter some paint him as.

Could Tunney really afford to dwell on those ropes for too long?
The weakest part of Listons boxing ability was his inability to cut off the ring,what footage of him have you seen?,he never moved laterally in his lifeCompare him to his sometime protege Foreman,George was excellent at itanother very proficient at cutting off the ring was Tyson ,Liston had the old "Chicago style" three steps ,throw the jab ,he followed his man around like a sheep dog.

[McGrain]

The weakest part of Listons boxing ability was his inability to cut off the ring

I agree witht his; he may actually be more likely to beat evey heavyweight champ that has ever been than every light-heayweight champ there has ever been for this very reason[/quote]


Liston had the old "Chicago style" three steps ,throw the jab ,he followed his man around like a sheep dog.

But he did have that lethal "leap in" versus smaller fighters. A fighter like Liston could throw caution to the wind on occasion. Tunney may be equal to it though.

[mcvey]

I agree witht his; he may actually be more likely to beat evey heavyweight champ that has ever been than every light-heayweight champ there has ever been for this very reason




But he did have that lethal "leap in" versus smaller fighters. A fighter like Liston could throw caution to the wind on occasion. Tunney may be equal to it though.[/QUOTE]
Quite agree ,I make it a pick em fight,the Liston who bombed out Williams was far superior to the aging ,hard drinking ,lacking in ring rounds ,lumbering Bear who Ali jabbed to death,but I give Tunney a very real shot here,he had all the qualities to make Sonny look slow and cumbersome,Fast hands ,very fast feet ,he was a ring general ,knowing every inch of it,he had a fast accurate left jab thrown like a vipers strike,a quick punishing short right cross ,and was very durable,he wouldnt be there for the wide hook off the jab ,nor thre follow up clubbing right,but if ,and its a big if Sonny could corner him ,as an old Dempsey did ,he would be in serious jeopardy.Machen gave subsequent boxer types the blue print to deal with Sonny and as clever as Eddie was he wasnt the boxer Tunney was,neither did he have his wonderful footwork or ring brain.Tunney takes a dec.

[DocDevil]

Ingo was able to blast out Machen in a single round, whereas a peak Liston couldn't do it in 12. Like Hagler, I think Sonny's power has been overestimated, but also like Marv, Liston's jab is one of his power shots. When that's combined with the ability to take a punch, whoever possesses those qualities will certainly present an awesome appearance. Also, Sonny failed twice to take out Whitehurst inside of ten rounds (although he barely missed the second time), while Archie Moore succeeded in getting Bert out within ten. Liston was tremendous in a kill or be killed scenario, but Gene wouldn't be playing that game.

Tunney was also a brilliant analyst, and like Ali, virtually impervious to body punishment. Moving in and out, he would beat Sonny to the punch repeatedly with his faster jab. Inside, he could smother Liston as he did Dempsey. He was also tough as nails, something he aptly demonstrated in the first match with Greb. Check out the ridiculous footspeed he displays after getting decked by Dempsey. If Sonny somehow managed to hurt Tunney, Gene would have more than enough ability to weather the storm, and quickly recover.

Always get a kick about Sonny and Ingo against Machen.Yes Ingo destroyed Machen.eddie thought all he had to do was show up to beat,Ingo,and got blasted.Against Liston,Machen was more interested in not getting kayoed.A way past it Machen made it to the tenth with pressure cooker Joe Frazier.Does this mean Ingo takes Liston and Frazier?No.Tunney had his face broke up by a middleweight,{Greb},so maybe I will assume Liston,Kayo's Tunney.

[Duodenum]

Always get a kick about Sonny and Ingo against Machen.Yes Ingo destroyed Machen.eddie thought all he had to do was show up to beat,Ingo,and got blasted.Against Liston,Machen was more interested in not getting kayoed.A way past it Machen made it to the tenth with pressure cooker Joe Frazier.Does this mean Ingo takes Liston and Frazier?No.Tunney had his face broke up by a middleweight,{Greb},so maybe I will assume Liston,Kayo's Tunney.Ingo was very shrewd in the benchmark performances of his career. He drew Machen in by retreating around the ring, and nailed Eddie advancing on him. Against Patterson, Ingo won the title by first throwing Floyd off with his unexpected left.

Johansson-Liston would have been an interesting matchup. Ingo couldn't take Sonny's best, but could Liston have stood up to Ingo's right if Johansson had connected first? Frazier had the heart of a lion, but if Ingo nailed him early, how do we know it wouldn't have been Foreman-Frazier I, or Johansson-Machen all over again?

I consider Frazier to be a top five all-time HW titlist, someone who would have beaten more of history's other HW champions than Big George would have, but Ingo was only defeated twice (once after he had floored Patterson two times). In peak condition (rare for Ingo), he would have to be given a puncher's chance against nearly anybody he could get to. (Don't forget that Ingo scored a pair of 13th round stoppages before facing Machen. He carried knockout power throughout a match, and would have likely proceeded against Liston with the sort of caution Patterson abandoned.)

[mightyd40]

i think genes boxing skills could carry him to a victory in this one but i would pick liston by late ko.....i think he hit harder than dempsey and had better overall skills

[Muchmoore]

When did Liston showed he could cut the ring off well? He followed Ali in a straight line like a zombie.



I know, him being out of shape didnt take away his footwork and knowledge.

[Luigi1985]

Tunney is very underrated, he would box Liston´s ears off. Sonny was simply to slow on his feets to fight with a boxing master like Gene. And Tunney had a good chin, he survided some hard shots of Dempsey and this man had more power than Liston, IMO a wide UD for Tunney... (10-5)

[mcvey]

Always get a kick about Sonny and Ingo against Machen.Yes Ingo destroyed Machen.eddie thought all he had to do was show up to beat,Ingo,and got blasted.Against Liston,Machen was more interested in not getting kayoed.A way past it Machen made it to the tenth with pressure cooker Joe Frazier.Does this mean Ingo takes Liston and Frazier?No.Tunney had his face broke up by a middleweight,{Greb},so maybe I will assume Liston,Kayo's Tunney.
Greb butted Tunney as soon as they came together in the 1st round ,breaking his nose,he followed this up by giving him the laces and ,"in the nuts",treatment,Tunney was a mess at the end ,but in subsequent bouts,he mastered Greb with short punches to the stomach and chest taking the wind out of Harry and sapping his legendary stamina,its entirely possible thatr Liston might stop Tunney but to use Greb as a guide to the result could be misleading.