*~* Welterweight GOAT Tournament *~* Roberto Duran vs Sugar Ray Leonard.

[Shake]

WHO WOULD WIN?

Please be patient for a moment as I set up the poll.
Rules:

1) This boxing match is fought over a 15-round period.
2) This boxing match is fought at welterweight.
3) You can only vote once. Don't vote with alts -- let's keep it clean.
4) Have fun.

I want to encourage discussion. Please provide us with some of your insight as it pertains to this match if you can be bothered to. Straight-up voting is, of course, still allowed.

[My dinner with Conteh]

In fairness to Duran, it already happened- and he won. But I don't think he was as good a welter as Leonard.

[rekcutnevets]

Leonard narrowly lost fighting Duran's fight. Leonard totally dominated Duran, when Leonard used a different fight plan. Duran was well below par in the rematch, though.

Leonard's style would give Duran problems at any weight. Even if you dropped Leonard to lightweight, if we are assuming that's possible. The difference at lightweight is that Duran was fierce enough to bull his way close to a fighter with Leonard's style. At welterweight, Duran is giving up a lot of size. It still takes a great figher to beat him there, but Leonard proved himself to be that.

[Stewbear]

It already happend, Duran won.:D

[shelterr]

This isnt exactly a what if scenario...

[Doppleganger]

If SRL fights smart then it's a comfortable win over points. If he doesn't well, we all know what happened.

[Marnoff]

Check the Montreal record books.

[JohnThomas1]

I'll match the Duran of the first against the SRL of the second and take Leonard via close UD.

[JohnThomas1]

So leading on the cards by one round is dominating, huh?

Well, getting the opponent to quit will do if not i guess.

[JohnThomas1]

In fairness to Duran, it already happened- and he won. But I don't think he was as good a welter as Leonard.

If pitting the best of them we have to go the latter Leonard tho, the Duran fight taught him a fair bit and he was never better than after it. I think he was just hitting his peak vs Hearn's, may have even improved a little more if not for retirement.

[Holmes' Jab]

Leonard, via SD

[TBooze]

Leonard deserves the close decision but it is in Panama City so Duran gets it:yep

Duran WS15

[istmeno]

If we would definitly know that Leonard made him quit than yes. But when we take into account that Duran shouldn´t have fought in the first place - he was not in shape for a fight with Leonard - and the mysterious stomach cramps than no :P

add to that leonards shameless admission in the playboy interview stating that his plan was to get duran into the ring asap knowing that he would not be able to get into top condition. leads to speculation that even he was not totally confident of his chances in a fight vs. a prepared duran.

same result as the first fight. duran cose decision.

[My dinner with Conteh]

If pitting the best of them we have to go the latter Leonard tho, the Duran fight taught him a fair bit and he was never better than after it. I think he was just hitting his peak vs Hearn's, may have even improved a little more if not for retirement.


Yeah, fair dinkum mate. :good

[Unforgiven]

Duran whupped Leonard, on points. Outboxed, outfought him, beat him.

There's no debate to be had.

The rematch Duran was not himself, for whatever reason. In the first fight both fighters were 100%.

[Stonehands89]

I take Duran by a split. June of 1980 spoke volumes more than the subsequent too matches. Leonard 'fought' him more than the hindsight prophets think he should have but why wouldn't he? Duran was smaller, slower, and at the time it was believed that he was slipping. Additionally, Brown and Arcel had devised a strategy that was all about neutralizing Leonard's mobility. Duran was instructed to "be the boss" -crowd him, cut the ring off and pummel the body.

An argument can be made that Leonard actually made it harder for Duran by using less mobility. Duran was prepared for Leonard to box, to stick and move -not for Leonard to plant his feet and throw fast combinations and engaging him in the trenches.

Duran is the greater fighter, no matter how you look at it. Leonard is the greater WW, but Duran's mitigated legend at 12 pounds beyond his prime weight still edges Leonard's greatness.

[My dinner with Conteh]

The important thing is, in any Superfight, the guy who gets it right first time deserves more credit. First time around, the motivation is equal, the expectation is as high on both sides, the will to win should be insurmoutable for both men. No one knows for certain whether there'll be a rematch. And the rematch always has the loser wanting it more (although they don't always win of course).


It's also different from an upset kinda thing, ala Turpin-Robinson, Ali-Spinks as the motivation factors are so disimilar. It's then that the rematch counts more.

[Unforgiven]

In the first fight Leonard chose to fight to Duran's advantage to prove a point, he wanted to brawl with him, and lst. Both on their games this fight is very interesting. Duran looked pretty ready for the 2nd fight, but didn't fight like it when Leonard implied a different strategy. We'll never know, but I think Leonard outboxes him.

I dont buy that line about Leonard fighting to Duran's advantage, by "brawling".
Truth is, Duran's outboxing in that fight. And Leonard brawls just as much in previous fights and subsequent fights, (eg. v.Hearns), that was Leonard's style, or a major part of it.
Leonard was a great boxer-fighter.
Duran was the superior boxer and superior fighter.

Leonard was more wary of Duran in the 2nd fight, but Duran really didn't do much, he didn't have the fire.

[Street Lethal]

In fairness to Duran, it already happened- and he won. But I don't think he was as good a welter as Leonard.

Not in terms of accomplishment. Leonard was two-time champion with several defenses. But I think Duran was the greater fighter. Had he concentrated on being a top welterweight for the long haul he would have been a greater one that Leonard.

[laxpdx]

Both fighters in top form?

I believe SRL would pull it out in a hard-fought close UD.

[hdog]

Leonard became a better fighter because of the first Duran fight. He realized he could hang with a great fighter. And no matter how anyone tries to dress in up, Duran quit. If he had knocked Leonard down just before he quit does anyone think he would have quit then?

Leonard - SD.

[istmeno]

Both fighters in top form?

I believe SRL would pull it out in a hard-fought close UD.

we had the scenaio of both fighters in top form in the first fight. there were no questions about fire, motivation or conditioning. and we saw what the result was. those of you saying that srl chose to fight durans fight, are not being objective in the least. look at it from the angle of duran made him fight that type of fight by the constant pressure.
most people ook at the second fight and only see that a much less than 100% duran quit. the indictment of leonard is that the same out of shape fighter who quit was only slightly behind on the cards. the fight was fairly close. so how can someone see both fighters at the top of their game, and see what actually happened, tghen use a fight where one is clearly not in prime condition, as a reason why srl would win.

both at 100% srl was beaten that is not mythical. that is fact.

[smokin joe]

it already happened thats the thruth, and its espns most important fight of the last 30 years, it already happened

[rekcutnevets]

Leonard had lost 2 out of 7 rounds, on 2 of the judges score cards. Duran could say he was winning 2/7ths of that fight. He was sure losing the next round when he quit. So you might say he was winning 2/8ths, which means 1/4th.

If you want to call winning %75 of a fight making it close, so be it.

I like Duran more than I like Leonard. I wish I could pick him. I just can't find a way to do so. Not if they are at their best.

Some of you are saying they were both at their best in the first fight. I'm not going to say they were not. I still believe Ray tried to prove he could fight with Duran in that fight. It is not like Ray was old. You saw how he moved in the rematch. You saw how he moved against Hagler years later. How can you say that he was not choosing to stand his ground?

[Street Lethal]

Well, getting the opponent to quit will do if not i guess.

Are you saying that Leonard poisoned Duran's food?

[hdog]

Are you saying that Leonard poisoned Duran's food?

Did it ever occur to you that Duran might have lied?

[Street Lethal]

Did it ever occur to you that Duran might have lied?

Had Duran not looked so puny I might have considered that possibility, but he looked ill to me. His skin was pasty and he was in pain. His mobility was cut by something, and it wasn't Leonard. In the seventh round, Leonard was able to stick his chin out for Duran to hit and Duran couldn't respond. That's when it was more than obvious that something was wrong with the Hands of Stone. I see no reason to doubt Duran's explanation.

I am assuming that the question of this thread presumes both boxers are in top condition. Under those circumstances, Duran wins, as he did in Montreal.

[hdog]

Duran just wasn't in the best of shape. I have every reason to believe he's gonna come up with a story.

Leonard was one of the best movers in the game, Duran didn't respond in the 7th because Leonard was just too damn fast. Even at the top of his game the best Duran could have done was lunge at him, like he did in the first fight when Leonard did move.

The Leonard that beat Hearns was a much better fighter than the Leonard in Montreal. Awesome movement and more snap to his punches. I'll take that Leonard over Duran in Montreal.

[Street Lethal]

Leonard was one of the best movers in the game, Duran didn't respond in the 7th because Leonard was just too damn fast.

The Leonard that beat Hearns was a much better fighter than the Leonard in Montreal.

I want to respond to these two points.

I have the video of Duran-Leonard II. Leonard is fast, but he's not that fast. Leonard isn't doing anything that shows me that he is too fast for Duran. Something is wrong with Duran. If that had been the Duran of Montreal Leonard wouldn't have gotten away with his antics in the rematch.

Hagler was at his peak against Duran. He was not the same fighter he was when he faced Leonard. Hagler was shot for the Leonard fight. Hagler tells us a lot more about Duran than about Leonard.

[Street Lethal]

He was not at his peak for Duran, and he sure as hell wasn't shot against Leonard.

Duran seemed to be going into the second fight with the same strategy, but wasn't able to imply it as well with Leonard's unwillingness to cooperate, and he couldn't deal with it.

Hagler was missing shots against Leonard like crazy. When he had Leonard in his sights He couldn't pull the trigger. He was slow. He should have retired after Mugabi. A peak Hagler would have ripped through Mugabi. Mugabi looked great because Hagler was losing it. By Leonard he was shot.

I am not buying the argument that Leonard was a different fighter in the rematch with Duran. I don't buy this idea that Leonard fought the wrong fight in the first fight or that Duran fought the wrong fight in the rematch. Duran was better than Leonard. In his fights against Palomino and Leonard, Duran was a demon tornado. Leonard didn't know what hit him. Duran lost the rematch because there was something wrong with the guy. He wasn't in the proper condition and he looked puny.

[Street Lethal]

You don't buy that Leonard fought the wrong fight in the first one or anything to do with that? But you make the excuse that Duran simply wasn't the same in the rematch? Seems a little hypocritical to me.

How is that hypocritical? Duran soundly beat Leonard in Montreal. In the rematch, something was obviously wrong with Duran and we learned after the fight that he was puny. The only difference between the two fights is Duran's condition. Leonard showed me nothing new in the rematch. If you want to believe that he showed you something new then I can't do anything about that. We will have to agree to disagree. :)

Somewhere in the rest of your post you said something about Duran having trouble with movers. Before facing Leonard Duran had a record of something like 74-1. Are you saying he never faced any movers during that time? Duran was a great boxer. I don't think he had trouble with movers.

[JohnThomas1]

If we would definitly know that Leonard made him quit than yes. But when we take into account that Duran shouldn´t have fought in the first place - he was not in shape for a fight with Leonard - and the mysterious stomach cramps than no :P

We really know he had stomach cramps too

:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

This won't be much of a fair vote of course, with Rooster voting in so many alias'

[NickHudson]

When do you take Haglers peak to be, if not in 1983, 3 years and 8 defences into his reign as MW king? At the peak of physical maturity, with the growing confidence that comes with being champ.

The 3 round demolition of Hamsho (1984) and the career-defining fight against Hearns (1985) both still to come.

I think calling Hagler peak in '83 when he faced Duran is eminently reasonable, smack bang in the middle of his great reign.

Many observers noticed a definite slowing in '86 during the Mugabi fight, which took the edge off him.

By '87 he was old and a bit off, and it showed against Leonard. Which Hagler are you talking about, Sweetpea? I have no idea where you are coming from with this post...

He was not at his peak for Duran, and he sure as hell wasn't shot against Leonard.

Duran seemed to be going into the second fight with the same strategy, but wasn't able to imply it as well with Leonard's unwillingness to cooperate, and he couldn't deal with it.

[NickHudson]

Illustrating your point about Duran struggling with movers with the Benitez fight is a little misleading.

It was Durans 79th Pro fight, 15 years into his pro career, and he was mentally in the doldrums after the 'no mas' fight.

As a point of reference, Pernell Whitaker was 15 years into his pro career in 1999 when he lost to Felix Trinidad. But i wouldnt consider it reasonable to use this as a yardstick for Pernells likely prime performance against a man with Trinidads qualities.

Play fair mate!


He had a hard time finding them. Benitez, Bizarro, etc. Benitez being a better example in that he beat Duran(and Bizarro was pretty much just a runner).

But if Leonard didn't show you anything different in the second fight than the first you have to be blind. He fought a totally different fight, he fought his fight, and Duran couldn't cope, instead of fighting Duran's fight.

[George W Hedge]

Well, they are 1-1 at 147 so I will say.....

The duran of the 1st fight vs the leonard of the 2nd fight.... I think srl`s natural size advantage enables him to survive the duran attacks & get straight back to long range boxing to win a sd, it would be 1 of those gtreat clash of styles fights with no real loser, fans opinions split as to who really won but in the end the 2 judges would give it to leonard while 1 goes for duran.

Leonard SD15 Duran

:good

[istmeno]

He had a hard time finding them. Benitez, Bizarro, etc. Benitez being a better example in that he beat Duran(and Bizarro was pretty much just a runner).

But if Leonard didn't show you anything different in the second fight than the first you have to be blind. He fought a totally different fight, he fought his fight, and Duran couldn't cope, instead of fighting Duran's fight.

you should be shot for putting benitez and bizzarro in the same sentence. there was a reason that benitez was nicknamed radar. one of the best defensive fighters ever. srl was nowhere near that level.

many are giving srl too much credit for that second fight. find the playboy interview. he says it himself that he knew that duran would not be able to get into top condition for that fight due to his lifestyle. and the fact that he was living high. which is the reason he wanted him in the ring as soon as possible. these are facts. seeing things the way you want to see them and discounting sr's own words is disengenuous.

[My dinner with Conteh]

The Duran camp could have turned that date down, it's not as if Leonard would have refused the fight had Eleta said January 20th or something.

[Drew101]

you should be shot for putting benitez and bizzarro in the same sentence. there was a reason that benitez was nicknamed radar. one of the best defensive fighters ever. srl was nowhere near that level.

many are giving srl too much credit for that second fight. find the playboy interview. he says it himself that he knew that duran would not be able to get into top condition for that fight due to his lifestyle. and the fact that he was living high. which is the reason he wanted him in the ring as soon as possible. these are facts. seeing things the way you want to see them and discounting sr's own words is disengenuous.

Ah, but SRL was pretty elusive when he wanted to be, and I think he showed that in his second fight with Duran. Hell, he began to incorporate more movement in the later rounds of the first fight, and did enough good work to make the fight pretty close on my particular scorecard.

I don't think it's at all easy for Leonard, but I think using the proper game plan from the start, he'd do enough to win a razor-thin decision.

[Titan1]

Leonard UD 15 Duran.Not easily, but Ray would do enough to pull it out.

[quintonjacksonfan]

I am going Leonard SD

BTW: If you add up all 6 judges scorecards through the first two fights
it's 638 for Leonard and 637 for Duran

[Duodenum]

SRL did not have the firepower necessary to hurt Duran in any of their three matches the way Roberto stunned Ray early in their first encounter. Early on in Montreal, Duran was feinting Leonard into knots. He also got Leonard to fight him flatfooted, winning a psychological battle against an opponent who didn't even speak the same language. If this is going to be a first time matchup, guess what? It's already been done.

What I wonder about is whether or not the SRL of Montreal would have even lasted 15 rounds with the Duran of DeJesus III. (That's right, even with Duran outweighed by over ten pounds. If that earlier version of Duran had stunned Leonard the way the older, heavier and slower version actually did do in Montreal, would Ray have survived?)

[rekcutnevets]

Duran fought great in the first fight. I'm not trying to say he didn't have anything to do with his victory in that fight.

I think that Duran is getting more credit than he deserves for the phycological advantage in that fight, and causing Leonard to fight flat footed. Leonard was constantly being questioned about his toughness before that fight. Not by Duran, but by most everyone. It is hard to picture someone who smiles like that to be a tough guy. He seemed to nice. He had the media questioning him, boxing fans questioning him, and he hadn't fought a fight without showing how well he could move at that point. No one had seen him toe to toe. What better way to prove his worth, by standing toe to toe with Duran? I don't think Duran alone influenced this, though he certainly helped.

Imagine being called a pretty boy your entire life. People saying you are a "pussy", and that if you couldn't run you were dead. You know in your mind, that you are not just a pretty boy. Then along comes Mayorga...

[istmeno]

Yeah I'm sorry SRL and Benitez are nowhere near the same level, Benitez would smoke a fighter of SRL's stature. Why would I think of comparing him to Benitez?

Oh well whadaya know? Apparently they had a fight, and SRL smoked him. Looks like Benitez's amazing defense didn't do him too well in that one did it? How the hell are you gonna say they aren't in the same league. SRL had just as good movement as Benitez, Benitez was just as little slicker.

you are the one that mentioned benitez and bizzarro in the same sentence. and i stand by the statement that you should be shot for that.

my statement about srl not being on benitez leve was in reference to defensive skills. srl had good not great defense. wilfred was on a whole different plane defensively. imo one of the best of my lifetime defensively.

[Street Lethal]

It seems as if most are voting for SRL, but Duran is winning the poll, I think what someone else said about Redrooster making aliases is true.

Maybe Leonard fans are just more vocal. Maybe Duran fans feel they don't have to justify their vote. Maybe they know how passionate Leonard fans are and want to avoid the knockdown dragout. The point is that I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the way the thread is going.

[Street Lethal]

One interesting pattern is that the polls is 25 for Duran and 23 for Leonard, which is very close, but more people pick Leonard to win by split decision than pick Duran to win by split decision. This seems to fit, since Leonard beating a properly conditioned Duran would be a close fight, one in which Leonard made subtle changes from Montreal, whereas Duran really put a beating on Leonard in Montreal. Even if you pick Leonard to win, it's hard to imagine him winning confortably. Duran's aggression probably wins one card at least.

[SugarRay]

I picked SRL by SD but, had I have known what this tournament thing was all about I would have picked Duran by SD. SRL would not have known how to fight Duran until after their first fight. As everyone knows the first fight went Duran's way.