When did Sugar Ray Robinson's decline start?

[Mendoza]

When did Sugar Ray Robinson's decline start?

[Longhhorn71]

He took that tour to Europe and got beat by Randy Turpin....then it seemed like every other big MW Title fight he won/lost.......except if it was
Carl 'Bobo" Olsen.......then he just blasted out Bobo just as quickly as possible to regain his title that had been "on loan".

Probably when Tiger Jones beat him around 1955 was when the real decline began to show.

[SuzieQ49]

when he moved up from welter to middle was the start of his decline. so i would say around 1951

[dpw417]

when he moved up from welter to middle was the start of his decline. so i would say around 1951
SuzieQ49, I think Robinson's decline stated around '51 as well...Without looking it up, how long had he been a professional? 14 years or so? Robinson did indeed have some great fights in following years after the LaMotta fight and during his comeback.
I remember an old article in The Ring saying something to the effect that Robinson's legs were definitely not the same after the comeback...in fact after the loss to Tiger Jones, they said his legs were GONE...and one could arguably say the LaMotta fight was his last true great effort in the ring. That's why I consider Robinson to be the best...No one accomplished more given the consideration of the wear and tear he had to have gone through after being a great, world class fighter for so long...I cannot think of a single welterweight/middleweight who could have fought evenly with the world's best at that point towards the end of his career...and as I said...that's why I consider Robinson as the best.

[Dempsey1238]

The real decline imo is perhaps the last 2 Fullmer fights, and the Pendler fights thown in there some were. He was still a top fighter of couse, and could very well lick most of the elite of that era, but that was when he started to slide.

[salsanchezfan]

..............Seeing as no real footage of Ray at welterweight has been seen by any of us (snippets of a fight here and there don't count, you know what I mean), I don't know how anyone could drive a stake in the ground on this question and say "HERE! The decline was here!" Without the first part of his career to go on, it's all guesswork.

[JohnThomas1]

Going via the plentiful articles on the man including from our very own John Garfield (a man i have immense trust and faith in) i will go for sometime around 1950. This was the last time he made welter i think, and without doubt he was a totally natural 147 pound fighter much like Leonard was too. Once he moved up he lost some natural advantages and effectiveness and he had also hit about 30 years of age which for many or most is getting a little past it.

[Senya13]

Mature Robinson was natural light middleweight, not welterweight. Mature meaning late 1940's. He clearly had outgrown 147 lbs, and even if he was keeping himself in shape and doing hard training, he had really big troubles making that weight again.

[Thread Stealer]

According to Ray, he said he felt he was starting to decline at age 28-29.

[he grant]

Ray was still close to his prime when he beat LaMotta for the title. His retirement after losing to Maxim was definately the most notable dividing line. He was never the same coming back.

[Nobudius]

A few publications I've come across we're even talking about the "declining Ray" since his Gavilan fights. One off the top of my head was from The Ring.

[dpw417]

Bumping this up because I'd like to read the opinion of one poster....
JG, are you out there?

[JohnThomas1]

Bumping this up because I'd like to read the opinion of one poster....
JG, are you out there?

JG will tell you beyond doubt when the decline was. Great call.

[dpw417]

JG will tell you beyond doubt when the decline was. Great call.
:good Cheers, JT

[Bill Butcher]

when he moved up from welter to middle was the start of his decline. so i would say around 1951

This is true although he was still good enough to beat any MWT in the world at that time so he REALLY started to decline after his 1st retirement, all that time away took something from him that he never got back.

[dpw417]

BBBBumped....

[ThinBlack]

1952, after the Maxim loss.

[lufcrazy]

Imo after he retired the first time, he was never the same.

He was capable of a few moments of magic but he wasn't the force he once was.

[JWSoats]

Ray was still close to his prime when he beat LaMotta for the title. His retirement after losing to Maxim was definately the most notable dividing line. He was never the same coming back.

I agree. While he had moments of brilliance against the likes of Olson and Fullmer while regaining the middleweight title, he was never the dominant champion he was pre-Maxim.

[ripcity]

Rather or not he was in his prime he was still good enough to beat the field as late as 1960. I'd be willing to ceed to 1959.

[lufcrazy]

Rather or not he was in his prime he was still good enough to beat the field as late as 1960. I'd be willing to ceed to 1959.

the thread question is about decline.

When did his skills start to decline.

[HMSTempleGarden]

He took that tour to Europe and got beat by Randy Turpin....then it seemed like every other big MW Title fight he won/lost.......except if it was
Carl 'Bobo" Olsen.......then he just blasted out Bobo just as quickly as possible to regain his title that had been "on loan".

Probably when Tiger Jones beat him around 1955 was when the real decline began to show.


before the first Turpin fight he was spotted in a pub drinking and playing cards.

[john garfield]

SRR was still good enough ta have great performances at middleweight, but his real decline started after a disastrous (which left him broke) two-year shot headling a one-man song 'n dance review, with all the bells 'n whistles of Vegas.

Sugar was an ATG as a fighter, but Sweet 'n Low as an entertainer.

[El Bujia]

Rather or not he was in his prime he was still good enough to beat the field as late as 1960. I'd be willing to ceed to 1959.:roflYou just can't help it, can you?

[he grant]

A bit with the jump to middleweight ... larger after the post Maxim retirement .. those two years off took a toll ..

[ETM]

His decline started after his intial retirement and 2+ year layoff. When he cameback he was about 34 years old and fighting to make the $$ back he had lost through his fail buisnesses.

About 1955...He had fallen off just enough to everyone`s else level and he had some of his most memorable bouts.

[PaulieJ'z]

A few publications I've come across we're even talking about the "declining Ray" since his Gavilan fights. One off the top of my head was from The Ring.

Good point. Many thought he was "past it" when he met Gavilan for a second time in July of 1949. Robbi was about 29 years old at that point and he beat and young and hungry Gavilan who was somewhere around 22-23.

[ripcity]

So I'm suposed to beleve that all of a suden in 1950 Robinson went from the most talented boxer of all time to a bum. Is that the point of the thread? I'm being serious. Because the video evidance that is avaible on this site called youtube, perhaps you herd of it would point to that not being true. Almost every thing we have of him is from after 1950.

[red cobra]

But did any other fighter in history decline so majestically? As gracefully?

[Stevie G]

When did Sugar Ray Robinson's decline start?

After his first retirement,post Joey 'There was no air-con in my corner either' Maxim fight.

[lufcrazy]

So I'm suposed to beleve that all of a suden in 1950 Robinson went from the most talented boxer of all time to a bum. Is that the point of the thread? I'm being serious. Because the video evidance that is avaible on this site called youtube, perhaps you herd of it would point to that not being true. Almost every thing we have of him is from after 1950.

Do you understand what a decline is?

Noone says he's a bum, he's just not as good as he was when he came back from retirement.

[Bokaj]

So I'm suposed to beleve that all of a suden in 1950 Robinson went from the most talented boxer of all time to a bum. Is that the point of the thread? I'm being serious. Because the video evidance that is avaible on this site called youtube, perhaps you herd of it would point to that not being true. Almost every thing we have of him is from after 1950.

I haven't seen anyone calling the SRR who stopped LaMotta a "bum" and would be surprised if anyone did. Masterful perfomance that.

[thistle1]

When he switched from Pepsi to COKE :rasta

[MyName]

He was certainly past it in his comeback from '55 and on.

Probably even before the Maxim fight.