Forgotten great lightweights

[janitor]

I do not need to tell anybody here that the lightweight division has an extremely talent rich history.

I think it is a division where all time greats get overlooked due to the low profile of the division and spme never make it due to the level of competition.

So here is a thread devoted to great lightweights who do not get enough exposure. Lets have some names.

[mr. magoo]

Benny Leonard comes to mind. Although Ray Mancini is mentioned on the forum every now and again, he happens to be one of my favorites as well.

[Holmes' Jab]

Jack McAuliffe, lack of footage (it being the 19th century an' all) is the main reason. :good

[janitor]

Jack McAuliffe, lack of footage (it being the 19th century an' all) is the main reason. :good

Good choice.

In his day he was regarded as something of a pound for pound Marvel.

[Drew101]

I wouldn't say Benny Leonard is forgotten. He's generally considered a Top 3 atg lightweight, absolute minimum.

Joe Brown would be my choice.

[janitor]

Benny Leonard comes to mind.

If you had asked a panel of boxing writers to produce a list of the greatest lightweights of all when Leonard retired the top 3 would be-

1. Joe Gans
2. Kid Lavigne
3. Benny Leonard

If you did the same today he would still be in the top three and might well take the No1 spot.

This leads me to think that his legend has endured prety well.

[jc]

If you had asked a panel of boxing writers to produce a list of the greatest lightweights of all when Leonard retired the top 3 would be-

1. Joe Gans
2. Kid Lavigne
3. Benny Leonard

If you did the same today he would still be in the top three and might well take the No1 spot.

This leads me to think that his legend has endured prety well.

Interesting. i wonder why the aura around the legends of Gans and livigne has decreased then...:think

[TBooze]

Sammy Angott rarely gets mentioned; another excellent fighter at his best.

[Manassa]

Willie Joyce. At least the other mentions are in the Hall of Fame.

[Stonehands89]

Former LW champ Sammy Mandell. He beat McLarnin, Petrolle, and Johnny Dundee.

[mr. magoo]

Freddy Pendleton is worth a mention

[Manassa]

Former LW champ Sammy Mandell. He beat McLarnin, Petrolle, and Johnny Dundee.

Not to mention Tony Canzoneri.

[Stonehands89]

Not to mention Tony Canzoneri.

...and Babe Ruth.

[Dempsey1238]

Rocky Kansas.

[janitor]

Interesting. i wonder why the aura around the legends of Gans and livigne has decreased then...:think

Probably due to lack of quality footage.

[janitor]

We are getting a lot of good names here but try to say a bit about why these fighters are great.

Why should people who do not know much about them take a closer look?

[Duodenum]

Even casual boxing fans remember Edwin Viruet. He beat Escalera, drew with Mamby, decisioned Vilomar Fernandez, and was the only boxer to last the distance with a peak Duran twice. He was the first to last through 15 rounds with Duran. The other ones were SRL, Benitez, and Hagler, pretty heady company.

Nobody ever crawled underneath Duran's skin like the Viruet brothers. Anybody remember what happened in the ring after Roberto's ten rounder with Ed's kid brother Adolfo, as they were waiting for the decision? (For those of you who missed it, Duran walked right up to Edwin, and punched him in the mouth!) If the two of them are ever scheduled to be in the same room on IBHOF induction weekend, sell me a ticket!

Vilomar Fernandez and Esteban DeJesus also come to mind. Duran is single handedly responsible for the fact that DeJesus is not yet a boxing HOFer.

Kenny Lane was a solid performer for a long time.

[janitor]

Even casual boxing fans remember Edwin Viruet. He beat Escalera, drew with Mamby, decisioned Vilomar Fernandez, and was the only boxer to last the distance with a peak Duran twice. He was the first to last through 15 rounds with Duran. The other ones were SRL, Benitez, and Hagler, pretty heady company.

Nobody ever crawled underneath Duran's skin like the Viruet brothers. Anybody remember what happened in the ring after Roberto's ten rounder with Ed's kid brother Adolfo, as they were waiting for the decision? (For those of you who missed it, Duran walked right up to Edwin, and punched him in the mouth!) If the two of them are ever scheduled to be in the same room on IBHOF induction weekend, sell me a ticket!

Vilomar Fernandez and Esteban DeJesus also come to mind. Duran is single handedly responsible for the fact that DeJesus is not yet a boxing HOFer.

Kenny Lane was a solid performer for a long time.

First class.

[TBooze]

We are getting a lot of good names here but try to say a bit about why these fighters are great.

Why should people who do not know much about them take a closer look?

Abusing the G word again! Angott was excellent but no great, the only great fighters who fought more than one or two fights as a pro at 135lbs are Armstrong, Duran, Carpentier, Chavez, Leonard, de la Hoya, Whitaker, Arguello and Gans IMO.

And if these fighters are anything other than household names in your household, then you are on the wrong forum...

[janitor]

Abusing the G word again! Angott was excellent but no great,


All I know is that if he walked into the room that you are sitting in now you would be verry excited and have a lot of questions to ask him.

That is the first test of greatness.

[TBooze]

All I know is that if he walked into the room that you are sitting in now you would be verry excited and have a lot of questions to ask him.

That is the first test of greatness.

Same as, but we are not normal, we are fanatics;)

[Duodenum]

Abusing the G word again! Angott was excellent but no great, the only great fighters who fought more than one or two fights as a pro at 135lbs are Armstrong, Duran, Carpentier, Chavez, Leonard, de la Hoya, Whitaker, Arguello and Gans IMO.

And if these fighters are anything other than household names in your household, then you are on the wrong forum...So, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna and Ken Buchanan don't qualify for your standard of greatness? (Hell, maybe you should be running the IBHOF! What does a boxer have to do to meet your definition of great anyways?)

[janitor]

Same as, but we are not normal, we are fanatics;)

So the guy is a legend in your lifetime;).

[TBooze]

So, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna and Ken Buchanan don't qualify for your standard of greatness? (Hell, maybe you should be running the IBHOF! What does a boxer have to do to meet your definition of great anyways?)

I just think of the 'Great' as very, very special and only have 35 fighters as Great IMO. All the fighters you named are superb, some may think of them as great. I would like to think although virtually all may disagree with my 35, no one has more than 40-50 fighters who they consider great, that way you keep the word Great fanatically special.

[TBooze]

So the guy is a legend in your lifetime;).

Of course:good

[Duodenum]

I just think of the 'Great' as very, very special and only have 35 fighters as Great IMO. All the fighters you named are superb, some may think of them as great. I would like to think although virtually all may disagree with my 35, no one has more than 40-50 fighters who they consider great, that way you keep the word Great fanatically special.Would your 35 be the only ones you consider suitable HOF material, and do you have an objective criteria for differentiating the truly great from those you consider suberb? (I assume you've previously posted your list of 35 elsewhere, but if you'd care to share it again, I'd be curious to know who and why.)

[TBooze]

Would your 35 be the only ones you consider suitable HOF material, and do you have an objective criteria for differentiating the truly great from those you consider suberb? (I assume you've previously posted your list of 35 elsewhere, but if you'd care to share it again, I'd be curious to know who and why.)

I fully accept now there is a difference between being famous and being great. I will share my 35 fighters who I consider great; and as I respect your knowledge ,I hope you disagree with some, I only hope the fighters you consider great total no more than 50...

35 Roy Jones
34 George Foreman
33 Joe Gans
32 Ruben Olivares
31 Thomas Hearns
30 Marvin Hagler
29 Joe Louis
28 Gene Tunney
27 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
25 Carlos Zarate
24 Alexis Arguello
23 Pernell Whitaker
22 Oscar de la Hoya
21 Pancho Villa
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Grebb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley
9 Sammy Langford
8 Archie Moore
7 Jimmy Wilde
6 Willie Pep
5 Sandy Sadler
4 Georges Carpentier
3 Roberto Duran
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson

[Dempsey1238]

Ross is great. He should be over roy Jones Jr pretty easy imo. Carp is WAY 2 high.

I belive any one can be great, You dont need to limet it to 35. Marciano is great, as is Dempsey. Even John L Sullivan is great.

[TBooze]

Ross is great. He should be over roy Jones Jr pretty easy imo. Carp is WAY 2 high.

I belive any one can be great, You dont need to limet it to 35. Marciano is great, as is Dempsey. Even John L Sullivan is great.

Fair enough with your calls, but IMO to keep the word speical you do need to limit the amount of fighters you consider great.

[Dempsey1238]

Jones is good but not GREAT. imo.

[john garfield]

I wouldn't say Benny Leonard is forgotten. He's generally considered a Top 3 atg lightweight, absolute minimum.

Joe Brown would be my choice.

Great to see Joe Brown's name. Whatta sweet fighter! Spent hours in the gym watching him spar, trying to copy his style. I was a poor imitation.

[Duodenum]

TBooze, you have produced a well considered and carefully thought out list. Of course I have disagreements with it, but it doesn't suffer from the period prejudices my preferences are confined by. (My hardcore aversion to the 12 round limit for example.) I guess I'm most surprised that you have Greb so low, and Carpentier so high. At the same time, the ranks of those who boxed in the LW division at one time or another is well-represented.

Innovation and evolutionary contributions are significant to me as well as head to head performance, and promotion of boxing's popularity and public acceptance. That's why I'd have a list which includes John L. Sullivan and Dempsey. As to how many would be included on such a list, I can assure you that it would not be diluted with overflow for marketing purposes, as the IBHOF is.

[robert ungurean]

Ike Williams & Canzoneri dont get enough attention.

[dmille]

MY all-time great lightweights

Joe Gans
Benny Leonard
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Roberto Duran
Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker

[sweet_scientist]

Here's a lightweight who potentially beats everyone at 135, but hardly anyone mentions him: Packey McFarland.

Lost only once (in his 7th pro bout) in over 100 fights, and beat the likes of Owen Moran, Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton, Jimmy Britt, Kid Herman, Harlem Tommy Murphy, Cyclone Johnny Thompson, Matt Wells and held his own with Mike Gibbons well above his best weight and past his best (in a comeback fight almost two years after he retired).

Here he is against Freddie Welsh:

[Only registered and activated users can see links] (Part One)

[Only registered and activated users can see links] (Part Two)

[TBooze]

TBooze, you have produced a well considered and carefully thought out list. Of course I have disagreements with it, but it doesn't suffer from the period prejudices my preferences are confined by. (My hardcore aversion to the 12 round limit for example.) I guess I'm most surprised that you have Greb so low, and Carpentier so high. At the same time, the ranks of those who boxed in the LW division at one time or another is well-represented.

Innovation and evolutionary contributions are significant to me as well as head to head performance, and promotion of boxing's popularity and public acceptance. That's why I'd have a list which includes John L. Sullivan and Dempsey. As to how many would be included on such a list, I can assure you that it would not be diluted with overflow for marketing purposes, as the IBHOF is.

Thanks it is very hard to write out and indeed justify such lists. To a degree it is ludicrous, because at the extremes you are rating a 95lbs man in 1910 (Wilde) against a 250lbs man from 2001 (Lewis).

I have bias because I know more about some fighters and because of that, that has positive (Carpentier/Foreman) or negative (Ross/Greb) affect.

[dmt]

Here's a lightweight who potentially beats everyone at 135, but hardly anyone mentions him: Packey McFarland.

Lost only once (in his 7th pro bout) in over 100 fights, and beat the likes of Owen Moran, Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton, Jimmy Britt, Kid Herman, Harlem Tommy Murphy, Cyclone Johnny Thompson, Matt Wells and held his own with Mike Gibbons well above his best weight and past his best (in a comeback fight almost two years after he retired).

Here he is against Freddie Welsh:

[Only registered and activated users can see links] (Part One)

[Only registered and activated users can see links] (Part Two)thanks ss :good

[mcvey]

I do not need to tell anybody here that the lightweight division has an extremely talent rich history.

I think it is a division where all time greats get overlooked due to the low profile of the division and spme never make it due to the level of competition.

So here is a thread devoted to great lightweights who do not get enough exposure. Lets have some names.
George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.
Sammy Mandell,who captured some impressive scalps witj his immaculate skills.
Charley White from Chicago who many old timers consider to have the most lethal left hook p4p of all time,never a champ but a dangerous man.
Barney Ross ,who could box your ears off,lacked a big punch to go with his skills.
Lew Jenkins ,raw and crude,never trained,sometimes drunk in his corner,could hit like a welterweight.
Al Singer ,won the title with a 1 round ko of Mandell,[Sammy was never the same again],and lost it with a 1 round ko to Canzoneri.

[mcvey]

George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.
Sammy Mandell,who captured some impressive scalps witj his immaculate skills.
Charley White from Chicago who many old timers consider to have the most lethal left hook p4p of all time,never a champ but a dangerous man.
Barney Ross ,who could box your ears off,lacked a big punch to go with his skills.
Lew Jenkins ,raw and crude,never trained,sometimes drunk in his corner,could hit like a welterweight.
Al Singer ,won the title with a 1 round ko of Mandell,[Sammy was never the same again],and lost it with a 1 round ko to Canzoneri.
Interesting guys ,if not all greats

[BoppaZoo]

i tell you what Lightweight doesnt get hardly any love on this board

Jimmy Carter

he had that great fight with Ike Williams that doesnt get talked about alot.

i think the reason is because he lost alot of fights but was a warrior none the less.

[janitor]

George Kid Lavigne a savage battler,forgotten today.


A generous slice of opinion had Lavigne as the greatest lightweight of all time well into Benny Leonards career.

[mcvey]

i tell you what Lightweight doesnt get hardly any love on this board

Jimmy Carter

he had that great fight with Ike Williams that doesnt get talked about alot.

i think the reason is because he lost alot of fights but was a warrior none the less.
Carter often came in to the ring wearing flippers and swimming trunks ,because of this its difficult to judge his true ability.