Frazier(1971) vs Holmes(1979)

[Sweet Science]

Who do you think wins?

[ChrisPontius]

Frazier for me. Unless you have a big punch to keep him off you, i don't think you can beat him. A boxing type of fighter can stick and move for some rounds, but not for the whole 15. I think Frazier will break Holmes down and might even score a late TKO. The early Frazier that annihilated Foster and beat a great version of Ali was absolutely awesome.

[Holmes' Jab]

It's a toss up, for me. I could definitely see this one going to the scorecards. :good

[heerko koois]

Holmes on points .....ud ..

[Shake]

Frazier, bloodied around the eyes and battered, takes Holmes to a place reserved only for him and Ali.

[FlatNose]

Frazier gives Holmes a whuppin, but Larry goes the distance and lumps Joe up as well.

[Minotauro]

Frazier via decision

[Titan1]

Frazier by decision, Holmes' skill and heart will keep him from being stopped.

[Bummy Davis]

Fazier by late stop 10-11 rounds

[Duodenum]

Holmes UD15 Frazier.

Larry demonstrated his right uppercut against Weaver and Rodriguez. (The referee incorrectly ruled Larry's knockdown of Rodriguez as a slip, but it was clearly from a right uppercut as Lucien bore in.) That uppercut would be a useful weapon against Smoke.

The left hook can be a very difficult punch to defend against, but Holmes was adept at neutralizing it. If there's a stoppage, it will come because Larry's jab has caused Joe's face to swell up, hindering Frazier's vision. Holmes was smarter than Ali, and wouldn't have attempted any rope-a-dope type foolishness with an opponent that tactic was useless against. Joe would have made it an entertaining battle though, a contest fun to watch.

[janitor]

I would expect Frazier to win and I beleive that it would be more one sided than the fight of the century.

[mcvey]

Frazier for me. Unless you have a big punch to keep him off you, i don't think you can beat him. A boxing type of fighter can stick and move for some rounds, but not for the whole 15. I think Frazier will break Holmes down and might even score a late TKO. The early Frazier that annihilated Foster and beat a great version of Ali was absolutely awesome.
Pickem fight Holmes was vulnerable to rights over a low left,not Fraziers money punch,he used it allmost as sparingly as as Henry Cooper,Joes pressure might wear Larry down ,but Holmes was a strong sob,with remarkable recuperative powers.Ali said Frazier was impossible to discourage,but easy to hit,I think Holmes had a little more pop on his punches ,so he might win by tko 50 50 scrap.

[JohnThomas1]

I like Holmes by decision. I also think he might visit the canvas. Holmes jab will be most important here, and his underrated right uppercut will cause Joe some probs. Great fight and matchup. I can see why people pick Joe too, a pick'em fight IMO.

[AREA 53]

Black Clouds Rain Might Douse Joe's Smoking....

Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rthyme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adverce to winning ugly, so unlike a/the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty,

Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe once Smoking will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its goes Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with both level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Rights coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i wantt him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys "No Waste" policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way its probably that close...)

[4eyes]

Holmes on points after getting of the floor in the earlier rounds

[redrooster]

I don't see why Larry wouldn't win. He's taken bigger men with better left hooks.

[McGrain]

Frazier for me. Unless you have a big punch to keep him off you, i don't think you can beat him. A boxing type of fighter can stick and move for some rounds, but not for the whole 15. I think Frazier will break Holmes down and might even score a late TKO. The early Frazier that annihilated Foster and beat a great version of Ali was absolutely awesome.


I'll roll with this.

[robert ungurean]

Sorry this is too tight for me to call.
Both these guys are huge favorites of mine & its just too close to call.

[Mendoza]

Holmes would win. I have this discussion as a spin off of the Ali vs Frazier matches. One thing to consider is Ali was a sucker for left hooks, and seemed to get caught on the ropes.

Holmes wasn’t nailed often with hooks, and was hardly ever caught on the ropes.

[rekcutnevets]

I have to go with the "Holmes hammer" over Joe's hook.

[NickHudson]

Nice succinct post!

Frazier, bloodied around the eyes and battered, takes Holmes to a place reserved only for him and Ali.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't see why Larry wouldn't win. He's taken bigger men with better left hooks.

Better? Harder maybe, but better? Get off the grass man. Frazier had one of the best left hooks ever swung in anger. The line up of better left hooks than Frazier's in heavyweight history is decidedly short.

[janitor]

The problem that I often have picking Holmes in these fantasy match ups is that he never really managed the transition to A grade oponents. He beat them but he always strugled with them.

He dose not have the signiture dominant wins over his best opponents that other all time greats have.

This leads me to question whether he realy could have handeled a guy of the calibre of Frazier.

[ChrisPontius]

The same could be said of Dempsey and Tyson, though.

[janitor]

The same could be said of Dempsey and Tyson, though.

I don't think that it can.

They both strugled against some of their A grade oponents and they both dominated some. Tyson especialy makes a good comparison because he was dominating many of the fighters that Holmes strugled with or failed to fight.

Now don't get me wrong Holmes might be able to beat othe ATGs like Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson but I didn't quite see enough against his best oponents to make me comfortable calling it.

[JohnThomas1]

The same could be said of Dempsey and Tyson, though.

I strongly disagree. Tyson proved he struggled when the opposition got better :D

But yeah, he burnt out. Facts are tho that it just happened to be when the comp hotted up so argument can be made both ways. I thought he was firing on near all cylinders when Holyfield debunked him.

[ChrisPontius]

My point is that Dempsey's best win is Sharkey, whom he knocked out in controversial manner when behind on points. Is Sharkey really a step above Witherspoon? So how confident can we be that Dempsey still does well against an all time great fighter?

I always thought Tyson looked good against Holyfield. Much better than he did against Douglas. His handspeed was phenomenal, he threw many punches and he started ferocious like he always did... of course, Holyfield sort of took that away, especially since that knockdown in the 6th.
I think it's all Rooney's fault, though.:D

[JohnThomas1]

My point is that Dempsey's best win is Sharkey, whom he knocked out in controversial manner when behind on points. Is Sharkey really a step above Witherspoon? So how confident can we be that Dempsey still does well against an all time great fighter?

I always thought Tyson looked good against Holyfield. Much better than he did against Douglas. His handspeed was phenomenal, he threw many punches and he started ferocious like he always did... of course, Holyfield sort of took that away, especially since that knockdown in the 6th.
I think it's all Rooney's fault, though.:D

I wasn't thinking of Dempsey of course.

I agree. Everyone was on the Tyson bandwagon again, fans were telling us he was as fearsome as he'd ever been and was going to dominate the division again now he'd found his way. He was a reformed man! The oddsmakers supported the notion strongly. Tyson was Tyson again. How soon they forget. Now all we here is excuses. He ranks with Duran as the most excused (he wasn't motivated or in shape x 7, he needed a poo, yada yada) fighter in modern history. Holyfield met Tyson head on and didn't wilt. Tyson however did. One of my fave fights ever. A battle of wills. Holyfield's chin and spirit are incredible in this one. The effort from him is inspirational. I have no doubt Tyson would have beaten plenty of top 15 Heavyweights that night.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]My point is that Dempsey's best win is Sharkey, whom he knocked out in controversial manner when behind on points. Is Sharkey really a step above Witherspoon? So how confident can we be that Dempsey still does well against an all time great fighter?


Dempsey in his prime dominated the best fighters available in the division such as Fulton, Willard, Miske and Gibbons.

Whenever Holmes came up against the equivalent level of opposition he in his own era strugled. His only truely dominant wins were over second teir opposition.


I always thought Tyson looked good against Holyfield. Much better than he did against Douglas. His handspeed was phenomenal, he threw many punches and he started ferocious like he always did... of course, Holyfield sort of took that away, especially since that knockdown in the 6th.
I think it's all Rooney's fault, though.:D


Again Tyson in his prime beat the best guys in the division and left the outcomes in verry little doubt.

Holmses record conspicuously lacks these dominating signiture wins.

[ChrisPontius]

I see your point Janitor and it is a valid one. I will add, though, that he did have a tendency to fight down to the level of his opposition now and then, and he did dominate Cooney and knock out Smith, something Tyson didn't do.


I agree. Everyone was on the Tyson bandwagon again, fans were telling us he was as fearsome as he'd ever been and was going to dominate the division again now he'd found his way. He was a reformed man! The oddsmakers supported the notion strongly. Tyson was Tyson again. How soon they forget. Now all we here is excuses. He ranks with Duran as the most excused (he wasn't motivated or in shape x 7, he needed a poo, yada yada) fighter in modern history. Holyfield met Tyson head on and didn't wilt. Tyson however did. One of my fave fights ever. A battle of wills. Holyfield's chin and spirit are incredible in this one. The effort from him is inspirational. I have no doubt Tyson would have beaten plenty of top 15 Heavyweights that night.


I think he ties James Toney in number of excuses gotten.

But yeah, Tyson fans are really something. I remember that after Lewis beat the shit out of him, some were saying "Rematch! rematch! This time the real Tyson will show up and knock Lewis out!".

[DaveTheWave]

Holmes was Frazier's sparring partner for I think one day or maybe three days, I can't remember- Anyway, Holmes was given his walking papers after Joe broke three of Larry's ribs and they had to send him to be treated. Joe paid for the medical (what a guy), but they told Larry his services would not be needed. Larry has another version of the story, but Joe's side is more accepted and credible.

[janitor]

I see your point Janitor and it is a valid one. I will add, though, that he did have a tendency to fight down to the level of his opposition now and then, and he did dominate Cooney and knock out Smith, something Tyson didn't do.


Perhaps it was Holmses missfortune that he never really had an oponent to bring the best out of him and cement his legacy.

If Foreman had hung round a few more years it might have made for an interesting face off.

[ChrisPontius]

True but then again, you'd probably hear the "Foreman was past his prime" stuff had they fought post Foreman-Young. The same stuff you would've heard had Tyson beaten Holyfield in 1996... but of course it never got that far.

[redrooster]

Better? Harder maybe, but better? Get off the grass man. Frazier had one of the best left hooks ever swung in anger. The line up of better left hooks than Frazier's in heavyweight history is decidedly short.

In the words of Joe Bugner "Frazier's hook could hurt you. Cooney's hook would go right thru you".

Can't see Frazier walking thru Larry's cross. Larry wins. Accept it my man.

[JohnThomas1]

In the words of Joe Bugner "Frazier's hook could hurt you. Cooney's hook would go right thru you".


So tell me, when exactly did Bugner fight Cooney??????????????

[combatesdeboxeo]

joe frazier(and marciano) had the perfect style to beat larry holmes. joe frazier was past hi sprime when larry was his sparring partner and joe broke him 2-3 ribs.(larry said that joe was better body puncher than mike tyson). this version of joe in 1970-71 was absolutely unstoppable, a fucking beast . i can´t see other boxer in history stopping this joe(except george foreman).


joe would neutralize the larry´s jab with his bobbing and weaving. joe would pressure during all fight, he had more stamina than norton,he was better body puncher, harder puncher, he had more heart, he was more aggressive, more compact.. larry was tired like the hell against past prime norton. joe frazier would finish larry in the late rounds. joe was too strong late

[combatesdeboxeo]

In the words of Joe Bugner "Frazier's hook could hurt you. Cooney's hook would go right thru you".

Can't see Frazier walking thru Larry's cross. Larry wins. Accept it my man.

really? basing on? your glass ball?.

larry would handle joe early with his skill and hand speed, but in the late rounds joe would be too strong for him. joe frazier is above larry holmes.
and when bugner faced frazier joe was finished mentally, foreman destroyed him, joe frazier in 1973 against bugner was much less aggressive

[combatesdeboxeo]

larry holmes is the boy and joe is the man

[combatesdeboxeo]

So tell me, when exactly did Bugner fight Cooney??????????????

:rofl:rofl:rofl:good

[Foreman Hook]

I always thought Tyson looked good against Holyfield. Much better than he did against Douglas. His handspeed was phenomenal, he threw many punches and he started ferocious like he always did... of course, Holyfield sort of took that away, especially since that knockdown in the 6th.
I think it's all Rooney's fault, though.:D


Xpert post m8. :thumbsup


Foreman Hooooook!:hat

[Foreman Hook]

I agree. Everyone was on the Tyson bandwagon again, fans were telling us he was as fearsome as he'd ever been and was going to dominate the division again now he'd found his way. He was a reformed man! The oddsmakers supported the notion strongly. Tyson was Tyson again. How soon they forget. Now all we here is excuses. He ranks with Duran as the most excused (he wasn't motivated or in shape x 7, he needed a poo, yada yada) fighter in modern history. Holyfield met Tyson head on and didn't wilt. Tyson however did. One of my fave fights ever. A battle of wills. Holyfield's chin and spirit are incredible in this one. The effort from him is inspirational. I have no doubt Tyson would have beaten plenty of top 15 Heavyweights that night.


Xpert post m8 :thumbsup

Foreman Hoooooook!:hat

[tommygun711]

So tell me, when exactly did Bugner fight Cooney??????????????

Sparring. Joe prepared Cooney for a few of his early fights. I have a few rounds of their encounters on tape..

[Foreman Hook]

I see your point Janitor and it is a valid one. I will add, though, that he did have a tendency to fight down to the level of his opposition now and then, and he did dominate Cooney and knock out Smith, something Tyson didn't do.



AGREE :thumbsup

I think he ties James Toney in number of excuses gotten.

But yeah, Tyson fans are really something. I remember that after Lewis beat the shit out of him, some were saying "Rematch! rematch! This time the real Tyson will show up and knock Lewis out!".


LMAO Tyson-Fans make-up cry-BABY excuses about why he DESTROYED by Buster "Bum" Douglas And OLD Vander in his PRIME - After teh fighs have happened. :thumbsup

Lennox beat teh livin' shit outta Tyson And it was a V.GREAT win IMO.
Lewis was 2 yrs past-prime And Tyson 5 yrs Past-prime - so not Much difference in it in fact. ALL Tyson-Fannys are so bloody dumb like you said m8,, teh Real Tyson did show-up And Bulked-up on-purpose to fight a Super-Heavy, BUT Lennox raped him like Douglas And Old Holyfeild did. :deal:deal Lennox Beat him Up so bad - Even if "MYTHICAL INVINCIBLE ROONEY 1988 TYSON" got to rematch Lennox he still get KTFO.

Foreman Hoooooook! :hat

[My2Sense]

I don't see why Larry wouldn't win. He's taken bigger men with better left hooks.

So did Ali.


Can't see Frazier walking thru Larry's cross.

Even though he's walked through equal or better crosses?

Congrats on shitting on your own logic. :patsch:roll:

[My2Sense]

So tell me, when exactly did Bugner fight Cooney??????????????

:lol::lol::lol: :rofl:rofl:rofl

End of discussion. :lol:

[MRBILL]

Who do you think wins?


"The Homer" by 15 round split decision or by late rds TKO.... I just think Larry Holmes has more tools than Joe Frazier ever had... Plus, Holmes had a harder right cross than Ali had...

I pick Holmes over Frazier in a thriller...:bbb

MR.BILL:hat

[Sister Sledge]

Holmes wouldn't fight Frazier like Ali fought Frazier. He wouldn't try to slug it out and outfight Joe. He can't win that way. Holmes would box Joe and try to keep him at a distance. When Joe got inside, Larry would tie him up and not let Joe get any momentum. I really like Holmes by close decision.

[combatesdeboxeo]

frazier late tko.
past prime norton was almost too much for holmes. noway he might handle a prime joe frazier who was better than norton in everything. too pressure, too aggressive, too strong,too stamina , too great for holmes.

men like weaver,spoon,berbick,smith,past prime shavers,past prime norton all them gave the hell to holmes. joe frazier would beat these guys hands down.

[Mr Butt]

frazier by sd in a hell of a fight

[he grant]

IN an amazing fight I simply like Joe ... a terrific fight ...

[Stevie G]

Who do you think wins?
Out of all the hypothetical heavy match ups,I've always found this one among the hardest to call. Holmes would dominate the early rounds,but would he store up enough points to get him the decision ? Frazier,in turn,would come on strong during the latter stages. It would definitely go the distance,as both men had durablity in spades. It would take a powerhouse like George Foreman to stop Joe. Anyway,if it was a twelve rounder,I'd say Holmes. A fifteen rounder would go to Frazier,imo.

[johnmaff36]

71 Frazier was some pup. Against a 78 Holmes this would be a hell of a match-up with Holmes no slouch either. I think Larry cant help himself mixing it, dont get me wrong he'll box most of the fight, but as it goes into the championship rounds Joes pressure begins to pay off as he gets the better of the slugfest. Frazier in a close pts decision for me with Holmes giving a great account of himself. Real hard fight to call

[ironchamp]

Black Clouds Rain Might Douse Joe's Smoking....

Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rthyme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adverce to winning ugly, so unlike a/the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty,

Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe once Smoking will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its goes Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with both level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Rights coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i wantt him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys "No Waste" policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way its probably that close...)

excellent post.....

[combatesdeboxeo]

Black Clouds Rain Might Douse Joe's Smoking....

Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rthyme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adverce to winning ugly, so unlike a/the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty,

Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe once Smoking will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its goes Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with both level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Rights coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i wantt him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys "No Waste" policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way its probably that close...)

holmes weighed 209 against norton and frazier weighed 209 in 1970 against bob foster, a 28 years old frazier weighed 215 pounds against terry daniels, 217 pounds against ron stander in the same year. joe was 5´11 and holmes was 6´3, joe was much stronger and more compact. with more stamina.

[turpinr]

i'll take larry holmes to win a close contest.