Watching ALI/Bonevena and couldn't help to think

[Bummy Davis]

I think the best versions of Ali I have seen was vs Liston1, Foreman and Frazier 1 but watching the 5"10 1/2 Bonevena giving Ali such a hard fight but tiring in the 15th and going down from a hook but mainly from exahustion, I picture the faster, harder punching and much greater stamina Marciano stopping Ali that night. Bonevena was slow and akward but the fight was close going into the 15th. I know we can say Charles gave Rocky a good fight in there 1st encounter and it is true although Marciano came on strong in the end. I still see that version of Ali getting KO'd by Rocky...Thoughts

[Muchmoore]

Ali was unusually sluggish that fight, I don't know if he was sick or didn't train right or what but he didn't look great. Bonavena is a tough fighter though, strong, tough, and durable he nearly took out Frazier. Probably the most durable fighter Ali ever took out, except maybe Foreman.

I agree Marciano wins against that Ali, and may even stop him late..

[Bummy Davis]

Ali was unusually sluggish that fight, I don't know if he was sick or didn't train right or what but he didn't look great. Bonavena is a tough fighter though, strong, tough, and durable he nearly took out Frazier. Probably the most durable fighter Ali ever took out, except maybe Foreman.

I agree Marciano wins against that Ali, and may even stop him late..

Oscar was also sluggish but his akward style gave Ali fits. Oscar also was not as durable as Marciano but wasa rythym breaker, he also stood strait and did not move his upper body enough but the fight was close

[the cobra]

this Ali would be beaten by most of the other great heavies. He looked very bad throughout the entire fight except the final 20 seconds when he finished Bonavena off. I say Rocky beats Ali on that night, a stoppage is possible, but I see Ali staying in the whole fight.

The Ali of the Clevland Williams and Zora Folley fights beats Rocky in my mind, not easy but a very clear UD.

[Bill Butcher]

Ali was unusually sluggish that fight, I don't know if he was sick or didn't train right or what but he didn't look great.

Maybe the fact that Ali had only gone just under 3 rds rds vs Jerry Quarry since being out of the ring for 3 & 1/2 yrs before stepping in there vs Bonevena.

Its a not so little thing called severe ring-rust & yes, I believe Marciano would beat THAT version of Ali by clear UD but not a fully prepared Ali.

:thumbsup

[Hitman]

Maybe the fact that Ali had only gone just under 3 rds rds vs Jerry Quarry since being out of the ring for 3 & 1/2 yrs before stepping in there vs Bonevena.

Its a not so little thing called severe ring-rust & yes, I believe Marciano would beat THAT version of Ali by clear UD but not a fully prepared Ali.

:thumbsup

Agreed.

[Muchmoore]

Maybe the fact that Ali had only gone just under 3 rds rds vs Jerry Quarry since being out of the ring for 3 & 1/2 yrs before stepping in there vs Bonevena.

Its a not so little thing called severe ring-rust & yes, I believe Marciano would beat THAT version of Ali by clear UD but not a fully prepared Ali.

:thumbsup

Yes he was still rusty but Ali looked better against Quarry than Bonavena. Despite Bonavena being after Quarry.

[Bummy Davis]

I think it was a matter of styles

[Bokaj]

Yes he was still rusty but Ali looked better against Quarry than Bonavena. Despite Bonavena being after Quarry.

It was partly down to styles I think. But Ali also got a wake-up call against Quarry. He was tiring badly when the fight was stopped, something which made him much more cautios when facing Bonavena. He just didn't know how his legs and his stamina would hold up.

That's why I think it was a bad decision to take on Frazier so early. He needed a couple of more tune-ups to get a clear feeling for just how much he had left after the exile.

[mcvey]

Ali was unusually sluggish that fight, I don't know if he was sick or didn't train right or what but he didn't look great. Bonavena is a tough fighter though, strong, tough, and durable he nearly took out Frazier. Probably the most durable fighter Ali ever took out, except maybe Foreman.

I agree Marciano wins against that Ali, and may even stop him late..
Well Ali had had three rounds of actual combat in three and a half years when he fought Oscar ,about the same as Dempsey against Tunney1.Ali said he would stop Bonavena in the 9th ,but admitted afterwards"I allmost predicted against myself ,both of us got shook",it was an unconvincing performance apart from the finish,if Rocky had been in the other corner ,it might have been lights out for the Greatest ,but given the ring rust he had accumulated it was a passable showing against a man who gave Frazier life and death.

[clark]

ali was never hurt by bonavena and ali had a tendency to look uninterested in fights. ali would not fight marciano like this,
especially since marciano was far better than bonavena. ali would
have been much more interested and would have won.

[groove]

Didn't Jimmy Ellis outclass Oscar? Never seen it. If so, it shows how rusty Ali was unless Ellis had the right style for Oscar? Did you hear Cosells comentary on how he couldn't believe it was the same Ali in the ring as the one in the 60s? Ali was undefeated going in to that fight and looked awful. Oscar had quite a few losses before facing Ali. Rocky should beat that version.

[groove]

Come on who thinks the Ali who fought Bonavena was as good as the Ali that retired in 1967?

[he grant]

Bonavena was exceptionally strong and tough, a heavyweight Gene Fullmer ... for Ali to take that fight as his second in his comeback after such a long exile a few months after Quarry was actually very risky match making by his management ... Yank Durham thought they were crazy and that they were going to blow the Superfight ....

First off to judge Ali by that fight is like gaging Marciano by one of his lackluster New England bouts, of which there were several, where he looked like shit and baerly squeezed by second raters ... in otherwords, not accurate ..
Secondly, Ali knocked out the iron chinned Bonavena with a terrific left hook. Oscar did not lose due to fatigue ... not the weather but the Ali leather ...

[SuzieQ49]

First off to judge Ali by that fight is like gaging Marciano by one of his lackluster New England bouts, of which there were several, where he looked like shit and baerly squeezed by second raters ... in otherwords, not accurate ..

while I am not denying marciano looked like "shit" in some of his new england bouts, I would love for you to tell me which fights he "Barely squeezed" by??? most of his new england bouts(save lowry I) were one sided beatdowns.

[Bummy Davis]

Bonavena was exceptionally strong and tough, a heavyweight Gene Fullmer ... for Ali to take that fight as his second in his comeback after such a long exile a few months after Quarry was actually very risky match making by his management ... Yank Durham thought they were crazy and that they were going to blow the Superfight ....

First off to judge Ali by that fight is like gaging Marciano by one of his lackluster New England bouts, of which there were several, where he looked like shit and baerly squeezed by second raters ... in otherwords, not accurate ..
Secondly, Ali knocked out the iron chinned Bonavena with a terrific left hook. Oscar did not lose due to fatigue ... not the weather but the Ali leather ...


Bonevena was dropped quite a few times in his career, he had decent wiskers but was dropped a few times by ellis, Ali hit him with a hook in the 15th but both men were tired and the pace was not torrent. Marciano would have the pace up a notch or 2...It was not the Cooper fight it was a more solid Ali but he got hit and shook by Oscar but O.B. was slow, I think the unorthdox style is what caused Ali all the trouble but the 5"10 Bonavena was a rythym breaker but not close to a Marciano, power or pressure wise

[Seamus]

The Ali of the Clevland Williams and Zora Folley fights beats Rocky in my mind, not easy but a very clear UD.

Hell, i'd pick BonAvena (can any of you fuckers spell?) to beat Williams or Folley, two of the most over-rated SOB's to come down the pike.

[mcvey]

Hell, i'd pick BonAvena (can any of you fuckers spell?) to beat Williams or Folley, two of the most over-rated SOB's to come down the pike.
Zora Folley outpointed Bonavena with ease in what was effectively a shutout.

[he grant]

Bonavena went twenty five rounds and took the best shots of Joe Frazier. His chin was excellent. True he suffered a few knockdowns by Jimmy Ellis but Ellis was an extremely fast puncher with the right and packed very underated power. Either way, Oscar shook them off and was no where near getting stopped. He also took the best of Zora Folley, George Chavalo, Leotis Martin and Blue Lewis, all serious punchers. Ali was the only man to ever knock him out.

SQ: Marciano looked bad and struggled against Johnny Pretzie before stopping him. Rocky looked bad going the distance against Don Morgard. Despite legend that Marciano was never hurt in his career he was badly hurt and almost stopped early by Ted Lowry in 1949. Lowry rocked Marciano badly in both the first and second rounds of their bout and again in the fourth. He was a punch away fom a loss. Many at the time felt Lowry held back and let Marciano regroup as if a fix was in. You don't hear much about these fights because so much of Rocky's career has been washed over but he was human. Read the coverage of the bouts, it's all there.

[mcvey]

Hell, i'd pick BonAvena (can any of you fuckers spell?) to beat Williams or Folley, two of the most over-rated SOB's to come down the pike.
Bonavena could only manage a split dec against a 37 year old Zora Folley ,and he was fighting in his home town of Buenos Aries ,earlier in his career Folley schooled him taking a unanimous dec ,and dropping him for an 8 count in the 8th round.Oscar was rugged but his chin was not granite apart from Folley, Ellis dropped him twice ,Ali 3 times.A prime Cleveland Williams might have kod him.

[round15]

Ali was desperate in the last round of that fight. He probably didn't have much left and the referee just let Ali hover over Bonavena without forcing him to stay in the neutral corner.

If Oscar was able to engage Ali cleanly after the knockdowns, he might've had a chance to better defend himself. Ali got away with hovering over Bonavena and was lucky the ref let him do that to finish him off.

[Addie]

this Ali would be beaten by most of the other great heavies. He looked very bad throughout the entire fight except the final 20 seconds when he finished Bonavena off. I say Rocky beats Ali on that night, a stoppage is possible, but I see Ali staying in the whole fight.

The Ali of the Clevland Williams and Zora Folley fights beats Rocky in my mind, not easy but a very clear UD.

It's a fair assumption to make that Muhammad Ali of Cleveland Williams clearly beats any other Heavyweight in history by this logic.

I think any version of Muhammad Ali, bar the Spinks, Berbick, and Holmes fight, easily outpoints any version of Rocky Marciano. Styles make fights, and Marciano telegraphs to often, and is to slow footed to land anything hard enough on Ali to knock him out. History tells us, even if he lands his right hand, Ali would still be right infront of him.

I don't rate Rocky Marciano that highly.

[Bokaj]

[/b][/font]

It's a fair assumption to make that Muhammad Ali of Cleveland Williams clearly beats any other Heavyweight in history by this logic.

I think any version of Muhammad Ali, bar the Spinks, Berbick, and Holmes fight, easily outpoints any version of Rocky Marciano. Styles make fights, and Marciano telegraphs to often, and is to slow footed to land anything hard enough on Ali to knock him out. History tells us, even if he lands his right hand, Ali would still be right infront of him.

I don't rate Rocky Marciano that highly.

I think you sell Rocky short, I would favour him (in his prime) against any version of Ali post Manilla.

[SorceryatCaesar]

hate to mention this, but a computer in 1969 had Marciano beating Ali.

[groove]

yeah and Ali won in the European version. Never seen it as i'd rather watch a fight that is real LOL.

[Addie]

I think you sell Rocky short, I would favour him (in his prime) against any version of Ali post Manilla.

I probably am selling Rocky Marciano short, but I don't think reputations make fights. By reputation, Hearns should have never been able to spark Roberto Duran like he did. By reputation, Leonard should have been blown out against Hagler considering the circumstances, but neither of those things happened. Styles make fights, and I don't ever imagine Ali having problems with Marciano over a 12 round fight or a 15 round fight. Ali had freakish stamina also, and holds every possible advantage except for power and pressure. If Walcott outboxes Marciano, so does Ali. Just my opinion, not intending to sell anybody short.

[Bokaj]

I probably am selling Rocky Marciano short, but I don't think reputations make fights. By reputation, Hearns should have never been able to spark Roberto Duran like he did. By reputation, Leonard should have been blown out against Hagler considering the circumstances, but neither of those things happened. Styles make fights, and I don't ever imagine Ali having problems with Marciano over a 12 round fight or a 15 round fight. Ali had freakish stamina also, and holds every possible advantage except for power and pressure. If Walcott outboxes Marciano, so does Ali. Just my opinion, not intending to sell anybody short.

I don't think Ali post-Manilla had the stamina, the speed, the power or the accuracy to keep Marciano off of him. Most other versions of Ali wins over Marciano IMO.

[Addie]

I don't think Ali post-Manilla had the stamina, the speed, the power or the accuracy to keep Marciano off of him. Most other versions of Ali wins over Marciano IMO.

Post-Manilla. :-(

[Seamus]

Zora Folley outpointed Bonavena with ease in what was effectively a shutout.

in his 8th fight? i'm talking prime for prime.

[he grant]

And Bonavena came back to decision Foley later ... my argument here is not that Oscar was an all time great heavyweight ...it is that he was a very tough, unconventional, super strong, hard hitting bull who was a very tough nut . He was also inconsistent and at times underperformed but at his best look out ...

[mcvey]

Bonavena came back to take a split decision off a 37 year old Folley and it was in Beunos Aries ,Bonavena's birthplace if you want to win against a local in Argentina ,better knock them out .Hard hitting? name a top ten ranked fighter he kod .Oscar couldnt even floor a 37 year old Folley ,o a 37 year old Patterson ,neither of whom were very durable around the chin.