Was Julio Cesar Chavez "shot" at the time of his 1st fight with De La Hoya?

[DINAMITA]

I watched the fight again for the first time in years at the weekend, and I'm interested to know what CFers think about Chavez at that fight.

To refresh the memory:

- Chavez's record was 96-1-1

- The fight was at light-welterweight- where Chavez had been fighting regularly since 1989

- He was 34 years old

- Since suffering his first career loss to Frankie Randall in 1994, Chavez had won 7 out of 7 (5 inside the distance) leading up to the 1st DLH fight, including a points win over Giovanni Parisi, and stoppages of Meldrick Taylor, Tony Lopez, and Randall in a rematch

- In his last fight before DLH, Chavez stopped Scott Walker (21-3-1) in the 2nd round

- In his 3 fights following the DLH fight, he stopped Joey Gamache (45-2) in the 8th, and also beat Tony Martin and Larry LaCoursiere




What do you think then, after looking at the facts: shot or not shot?

(I cannot decide. I am not suggesting that this was anything remotely like a peak or prime Chavez, 80s Chavez would chew up Oscar and spit him out, but I have trouble saying he was "shot" for this fight. IMO Roy Jones Jr is shot now, Tyson was shot by the time of the Lewis fight, Sweet Pea was shot by the Trinidad fight, my idea of 'shot' is when a fighter is no longer world class anymore. I don't think Chavez was by this time)

[A Rock]

i dont know about shot but definitely on the decline

[Bill Butcher]

He wasnt as shot as he was for the 2nd fight but he was nothing compared to his prime yrs, a complete shell in fact.

DLH will probably even admit this.

[Bill Butcher]

I also think DLH was a level above the guys JCC had been fighting in his previous fights (were he didnt look that good IMO) aswell as being naturally bigger than Chavez.
DLH was bigger, faster, younger & likely hit harder... in other words, the completely wrong opponent for a 34 yr old legend in severe decline.

Despite the size advantage, I think prime Chavez outpoints DLH.

[Loewe]

I don´t think he was shot but ver much past his prime. He still was able top beat mediocre ot average opposition but somebody like DLH was just too good at that time of his career.

[zadfrak]

Yes.

But that doesn't give him a go directly to go and collect $200 card. It was just a case of the shoe being on the other foot, is all. Chavez built his record when he was the guy with youth and reflexes fighting the older guy on the other side of the mountain. The DLH fight was a role reversal and time to see how he would do against against pedigreed youth.

[TBooze]

He was a disgrace that night.

I always liked Chavez, and always will, but that night he let himself down and cost his fans a fortune, purely so he could make some money.

To go into a borderline superfight knowing a few days back you had been busted opening in sparring is way over the line IMO.

[teeto]

I would say he was shot personally. To me he never looked the same at 140 as what he was at the lower weights. He was young and hungry, and a force of nature at 130, seemed to be at his best at 135, matured yet still hungry. And then imol wasnt the same again at 140, but still had a desire to emerge victoriious.

[redrooster]

after 100 fights what do you expect. Yes it was apparant to anyone who'd seen him he had mileage and was just holding on for some crumbs to be thrown his way. Soft, round, over the hill, a steppingstone to be sure

[SuzieQ49]

no chavez wasnt shot, he had just beaten a slew of top 10 guys heading into the oscar fight and his record was 96-1.

80s Chavez would chew up Oscar and spit him


lol in your dreams, chavez always would never have beaten oscar. oscar had too much boxing skills for chavez, too stiff of a jab, too much sharp fast combos for chavez to deal with.

[Holmes' Jab]

On the downslope, but not totally shot.

[Holmes' Jab]

lol in your dreams, chavez always would never have beaten oscar. oscar had too much boxing skills for chavez, too stiff of a jab, too much sharp fast combos for chavez to deal with.


Lets be realistic here I think he'd outhussle De La Hoya and get the decision. The only real time a close to peak Chavez was outclassed was against Whitaker (unfortunately the judges failed to see the same) who was without question a much better fighter than DLH (that's no slight on Oscar by the way).

[DINAMITA]

no chavez wasnt shot, he had just beaten a slew of top 10 guys heading into the oscar fight and his record was 96-1.




lol in your dreams, chavez always would never have beaten oscar. oscar had too much boxing skills for chavez, too stiff of a jab, too much sharp fast combos for chavez to deal with.

I am a big DLH fan, but IMO Chavez is a level above him. I have Chavez far higher than Oscar in all-time p4p terms, and I'd back him to beat the Golden Boy at any weight below welter.

[Hatesrats]

Not shot, but very under prepared.
Chavez Vs. De La Hoya II is the proof.
Julio was able to hang with Oscar and at times hit him with
shot's that would have hurt an average 140Lbs'er, but this fight
was way out of Chavez BEST, and Oscar was no normal 147.
Welterweight was defo a weightclass that Chavez should have avoided.
On fight night Chavez was 144Lbs & De La Hoya was 160Lbs.
4 years after their first fight, And Chavez gave a better account.
(But by then, Oscar was in unbeatable mode & Life had caught up to Chavez)

[martin0792]

The first fight Oscar De La Hoya boxed to a set plan, clearly to use his height and reach advantages. Oscar was never accepted by Mexican fans because he destroyed their Champion in 4 rounds, They told him he was afraid of trading with Chavez and he was not a great fighter, Mexican Fans wanted blood and guts, Chavez bled for them. Oscar was angered by this so in the rematch he stood and traded with Chavez, forcing him to submit in the later rounds, Mexico had finally accepted Oscar De La Hoya.

[la-califa]

Quickly on the decline. He had "lost" to Whitaker, then Randall officially. Then in his next fight was on his way to losing to Randall again. 34 years old is old for any fighter. Then add in over 100 fights? You do the math...

[SuzieQ49]

I am a big DLH fan, but IMO Chavez is a level above him. I have Chavez far higher than Oscar in all-time p4p terms, and I'd back him to beat the Golden Boy at any weight below welter.
Top



I disagree, Oscar fought the best p4p fighters in 2 different decades and NO ONE i mean no one outclassed him even in losses, he was extemley close on the scorecards even in losing efforts. Chavez while great i dont think he could handle a master boxer like oscar. oscar fluid sharp combinations would bounce off a charging julio chavez head all night, and oscar had too much smarts and durability to get worn down by a smaller fighter like that. it would be an extremley close fight but i like oscar by close decision or cuts stoppage.

[SuzieQ49]

I happen to think whitaker gets overated around here. he was only on a small level above a de la hoya if that. whitaker's resume is not that impressive for a p4p great, and when I hear people picking him over the likes of roberto duran and ike williams, i have to laugh.

[la-califa]

I disagree, Oscar fought the best p4p fighters in 2 different decades and NO ONE i mean no one outclassed him even in losses, he was extemley close on the scorecards even in losing efforts. Chavez while great i dont think he could handle a master boxer like oscar. oscar fluid sharp combinations would bounce off a charging julio chavez head all night, and oscar had too much smarts and durability to get worn down by a smaller fighter like that. it would be an extremley close fight but i like oscar by close decision or cuts stoppage. Chavez never suffered from Cuts until very late in his career.

[sweet_scientist]

I happen to think whitaker gets overated around here. he was only on a small level above a de la hoya if that. whitaker's resume is not that impressive for a p4p great, and when I hear people picking him over the likes of roberto duran and ike williams, i have to laugh.

Most that pick him to beat Duran and Williams do so on his fighting ability, not because of his resume. If someone claims that Whitaker has a better resume than Duran or Williams, then that indeed is laughable. But if they are picking him because they think h2h he is better, that's not really laughable.

Oh, and Whitaker would never arguably lose in his prime to a past prime Whitaker, Quartey or Mosley.

[Sweet Pea]

I happen to think whitaker gets overated around here. he was only on a small level above a de la hoya if that. whitaker's resume is not that impressive for a p4p great, and when I hear people picking him over the likes of roberto duran and ike williams, i have to laugh.Stylistically Whitaker is THE worst matchup for Williams in LW history. Nobody's claiming he had a more stacked resume, but he was definitely more consistent(however, that goes hand in hand with having less fights and being more prepared for most) in his prime and stylistically, as I just said, holds a very clear edge.

Someone looking to get into a punch-out with Williams is likely not going to be too successful(though he was stopped on seperate occasions by the other top LW's of the era like Montgomery and Carter), but someone who can force him to fight their fight and box(which Ike was not often opposed to doing, as he was a skilled boxer) would be at an advantage. How do you explain a puncher like Ike having as mediocre a KO ratio as he did, with that kind of power and finishing ability? The fighters that came to him played into his hand, the ones that didn't, as long as they had the skill to cope, did not. Whitaker had more than enough skill.

[redrooster]

I happen to think whitaker gets overated around here. he was only on a small level above a de la hoya if that. whitaker's resume is not that impressive for a p4p great, and when I hear people picking him over the likes of roberto duran and ike williams, i have to laugh.

I agree with you Q. I see Pernell as a crafty, sturdy lightweight but his opposition isn't breathtaking by any means.

[Sweet Pea]

I agree with you Q. I see Pernell as a crafty, sturdy lightweight but his opposition isn't breathtaking by any means.But Ayala's opposition was?

[Bill Butcher]

Chavez while great i dont think he could handle a master boxer like oscar.


oscar fluid sharp combinations would bounce off a charging julio chavez head all night,


i like oscar by close decision or cuts stoppage.

Lets take this from the top.... Oscar wasnt no master boxer, very good boxer, yes... master boxer, no.

2ndly.... nobody`s combo`s would be bouncing off prime Chavez`s head all night long, prime JCC had great defence & slipped & blocked most punches, there were always a few that got thru to no avail (granite chin) but prime JCC never had punches bounce off his head all night long & certainly if there is a man capable of doing this then Oscar is not that man.

Lastly... when was the last time prime Chavez was even cut let alone cut bad enough to be TKOd...... believe me when I tell you this.... THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN TO PEAK JCC VS SOMEONE LIKE DLH.

Ps. My personal opinion of Delahoya is that even tho he did the right thing by the fans & fought the best out there & was a genuine warrior, he was no ATG fighter, he was a very good fighter, 1 of the best of his era but to me, as far as what he did in the ring, I struggle to think of him as a true legend in the same mould as Chavez.
His charisma & fan base meant that he was the SRL of his era but without the ATG ability IN THE RING.

:thumbsup

[he grant]

Chavez ws not a great fighter to begin with at 147 ... then he got gifts over Whitaker and Randall ... he was not shot for Oscar but shopworn ... the rematch proved it when he basically quit rather than get knocked out ...

Chavez was a great fighter at 130 and a warrior at 135 but age and size took it's toll as he went up higher in weight ...

[Robbi]

People will have different opinions as to when Chavez became shot. I would rather come to the conclusion that he was safely shot for the Tszyu fight. Probably for the second De La Hoya fight as well, but he did perform pretty well on that ocassion. He done brilliantly at long range. He tricked De La Hoya for periods of the fight. Instead of coming forward looking to get inside, he sat back and countered him. De La Hoya's head was rocked back by Chavez's jab on a number of ocassions. Only during the 8th round did the fight develop into a full scale war on the inside. De La Hoya's best work was done when he got on his toes, boxed, then rattled off combinations.

[Loewe]

Lets take this from the top.... Oscar wasnt no master boxer, very good boxer, yes... master boxer, no.

2ndly.... nobody`s combo`s would be bouncing off prime Chavez`s head all night long, prime JCC had great defence & slipped & blocked most punches, there were always a few that got thru to no avail (granite chin) but prime JCC never had punches bounce off his head all night long & certainly if there is a man capable of doing this then Oscar is not that man.

Lastly... when was the last time prime Chavez was even cut let alone cut bad enough to be TKOd...... believe me when I tell you this.... THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN TO PEAK JCC VS SOMEONE LIKE DLH.

Ps. My personal opinion of Delahoya is that even tho he did the right thing by the fans & fought the best out there & was a genuine warrior, he was no ATG fighter, he was a very good fighter, 1 of the best of his era but to me, as far as what he did in the ring, I struggle to think of him as a true legend in the same mould as Chavez.
His charisma & fan base meant that he was the SRL of his era but without the ATG ability IN THE RING.

:thumbsup

I totally disagree. DLH is an atg not in the same league as Chavez but definitly an atg. If he isn´t one than guys like Mayweather, Jones, Toney, Hopkins and so on aren´t one either.

[TIGEREDGE]

Lets be realistic here I think he'd outhussle De La Hoya and get the decision. The only real time a close to peak Chavez was outclassed was against Whitaker (unfortunately the judges failed to see the same) who was without question a much better fighter than DLH (that's no slight on Oscar by the way).

chavez was 33 when he foughts sweet pea and was 13 years into his career. he was nowhere near his peak and was also fighting above hsi natural weight

[TIGEREDGE]

I totally disagree. DLH is an atg not in the same league as Chavez but definitly an atg. If he isn´t one than guys like Mayweather, Jones, Toney, Hopkins and so on aren´t one either.

spot on. de la hoya is a candidate for the top 30 of all time at best. Chavez is a strong candidate for the top 5 of all time

but if he is not an ATG, the names that you mention cannot be ATGS is well

chavez is the greatest boxer of the last 20 years

[DINAMITA]

chavez was 33 when he foughts sweet pea and was 13 years into his career. he was nowhere near his peak and was also fighting above hsi natural weight

Wrong- Chavez was 31.

[DINAMITA]

spot on. de la hoya is a candidate for the top 30 of all time at best. Chavez is a strong candidate for the top 5 of all time

but if he is not an ATG, the names that you mention cannot be ATGS is well

chavez is the greatest boxer of the last 20 years

Pernell Whitaker is the greatest boxer of the last 20 years. Chavez and Jones Jr make up the top three.

IMO, De La Hoya is top 10 of his own era/generation, I think he'd maybe be in the top 50 of all-time. Chavez would be in my top 20 of all-time, Whitaker top 10. I am a bit of a DLH fan, but that's my honest, objective opinion of his ability.

[Thread Stealer]

Chavez was on the decline, but not shot.

For what it's worth, I was skimming thru the article in The Ring which is a passage from DLH's autobio and he said that "age 33, Chavez was living off his reputation and his body was worn down from 100 fights and hard living".

[TIGEREDGE]

Wrong- Chavez was 31.

sorry your right. he had been a pro for 13 years though he was favoured by many to win

[divac]

The thread going 3 pages long, and sadly in a section where there's supposed to be informed posters, not a single mention that the way the first Chavez-DLH fight unfolded....the unfolding of the fight was heavily influenced by Chavez having a pre-existing cut going in....
....it opens up with the first jab landed of the night, and the flow of blood effecting Chavez' vision, takes off after then.


My opinion is that Chavez was in a state of decline, but far from shot in that first DLH fight....but the fight becomes inconclusive as most fights stopped on due to early cuts.

First jab landed on the night and Chavez is already heavily bleeding......and there are morons in this forum that would call that DLH victory a dominant one!:rofl :rofl :lol: :lol: :nut

Over 2 years later at a time where Chavez is indeed closer to shot, fighting at a weight Chavez has no business in.....Chavez gives a better account of himself....goodness, I wonder why???:huh

[Thread Stealer]

The thread going 3 pages long, and sadly in a section where there's supposed to be informed posters, not a single mention that the way the first Chavez-DLH fight unfolded....the unfolding of the fight was heavily influenced by Chavez having a pre-existing cut going in....
....it opens up with the first jab landed of the night, and the flow of blood effecting Chavez' vision, takes off after then.


My opinion is that Chavez was in a state of decline, but far from shot in that first DLH fight....but the fight becomes inconclusive as most fights stopped on due to early cuts.

First jab landed on the night and Chavez is already heavily bleeding......and there are morons in this forum that would call that DLH victory a dominant one!:rofl :rofl :lol: :lol: :nut

Over 2 years later at a time where Chavez is indeed closer to shot, fighting at a weight Chavez has no business in.....Chavez gives a better account of himself....goodness, I wonder why???:huh

De La Hoya fought differently in the rematch. He traded more and gave Chavez more opportunities, probably because of the size advantage he had (he weighed like 161-162 on fight night) over someone who never really belonged above 140.

Even without the cut, which I'm sure was pre-existing, I can't see that version of Chavez beating DLH or making it that close.

Late 80s Chavez, particularly the animal that ravaged El Chapo, that's a different story.

[divac]

De La Hoya fought differently in the rematch. He traded more and gave Chavez more opportunities, probably because of the size advantage he had (he weighed like 161-162 on fight night) over someone who never really belonged above 140.

Even without the cut, which I'm sure was pre-existing, I can't see that version of Chavez beating DLH or making it that close.

Late 80s Chavez, particularly the animal that ravaged El Chapo, that's a different story.


It does'nt matter what anyone thinks would have happened......the fact is that the cut played a major role in the unfolding of the fight.

Going in, the consensus was that Chavez would have to take some punishment early on against the faster DLH, and hope to take the still very green DLH into uncharted waters for him.
The cut, prevented Chavez from executing his gameplan which was to ride low in the early going and finish strong late (which was always a Chavez trademark)

Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early.
What we essentially had was Chavez attempting to be Mike Tyson vs DLH.....going for an early KO knowing that there is blood pouring and its getting worse.
Thats just not a winning fight plan if you're Chavez, but he had no choice but to attempt it, knowing the flow of blood down to his eyes was'nt going to get any better.

Its elementary, but for some reason people chose to ignore facts.

[Robbi]

It does'nt matter what anyone thinks would have happened......the fact is that the cut played a major role in the unfolding of the fight.

Going in, the consensus was that Chavez would have to take some punishment early on against the faster DLH, and hope to take the still very green DLH into uncharted waters for him.
The cut, prevented Chavez from executing his gameplan which was to ride low in the early going and finish strong late (which was always a Chavez trademark)

Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early.
What we essentially had was Chavez attempting to be Mike Tyson vs DLH.....going for an early KO knowing that there is blood pouring and its getting worse.
Thats just not a winning fight plan if you're Chavez, but he had no choice but to attempt it, knowing the flow of blood down to his eyes was'nt going to get any better.

Its elementary, but for some reason people chose to ignore facts.

Chavez was hesitant during the first 3 rounds. And your not going to tell me otherwise. After De La Hoya cut him halfway through the first round with an up-jab, he was thrown off his gameplan. But he fought totally different to how you describe right after the cut. He was actually tame and reserved. For the rest of the round and the 2nd and 3rd rounds he was backed up and picked apart. Only during the start of the 4th round did Chavez start to take chances and attack aggressively for a sustained period of time. And once he opened up with heavy artillery that was the end of him as De La Hoya moved through the gears himself.

[TBooze]

The thread going 3 pages long, and sadly in a section where there's supposed to be informed posters, not a single mention that the way the first Chavez-DLH fight unfolded....the unfolding of the fight was heavily influenced by Chavez having a pre-existing cut going in....
....it opens up with the first jab landed of the night, and the flow of blood effecting Chavez' vision, takes off after then.


Well you have not read the thread then; I mentioned the cut on the first page.;)

[divac]

He was a disgrace that night.

I always liked Chavez, and always will, but that night he let himself down and cost his fans a fortune, purely so he could make some money.

To go into a borderline superfight knowing a few days back you had been busted opening in sparring is way over the line IMO.

Sorry I missed your post T.......

But to clarify, my understanding was that Chavez had been slightly cut sparring a couple of weeks before the fight......after the fact it was explained by Chavez that there was concern whether to go on with the fight, but Don King had put pressure on them that there were too deep in the promotion to postpone the fight.......
.....in any regards, they were concerned, but thought they would be OK and the cut would heal, as it was only on the surface.

.....lo and behold, just a couple of days before fightnight, Chavez was on a Latino television show being interviewed......kind of like the Tonight show, but only in spanish......Chavez had one of his sons on his lap while he was interviewed on this show.....Chavez' son made a sudden move with his head, and hit Chavez right on the tender spot where he had been cut.....Chavez immediately got a hold of some tissue and began to wipe on the area that had been tenderized by his sons butt......apparently the butt was severe enough that it drew a small little trace of blood......

You're right Tbooze, the fight should have been postponed, but apparently whether it be Chavez or Don King's pressure, they felt an obligation to fight with so much money already invested in the promotion.
Those were the words of JC Chavez in the day or so after the fight.
My guess is that Don King talked them into fighting.

The American media and DLH himself accused Chavez of being unsportmanlike, and not being able to take defeat like a man with his excuses that he was cut beforehand......the spanish stations here in Los Angeles were the only ones who reported the truth of the matter about there really being a pre-existing cut....and then came out with video evidence of Chavez' son on that show accidentally butting him.

I feel like you Tbooze, as a Chavez fan, I felt cheated that Chavez did'nt go into the fight fully healed from that cut.


.....and Robbi, anytime Chavez attempted to get on the inside in his range in those early rounds, he found himself wiping blood from his vision site.
Chavez could never get into his rhythm, because DLH's jab was targeting that cut.
....with a parry'er like Chavez, you recieve alot of deflected shots in the the facial area, and that is'nt good when you're already cut up.
......from Chavez' own accounts afterward, he was'nt going to be able to up the tempo at his leisure and begin to set traps, because his vision was'nt going to let him.....so he had to step on the accelerator then and now in that 4th round, and hope to catch DLH with something.
....it just was'nt the Chavez way to do things, but he had no choice on the matter. Chavez stepped on the gas in that 4th round while DLH was still relatively fresh and fast, and he ate punches that furthered opened up his cut.....which then resulted in the cuts stoppage.


What unfolded with DLH afterward, is only part of the reason why I have a dislike for him.

Chavez during the post fight interview said, "It was'nt the kids fault of course (speaking of DLH) but I dont feel like he beat me tonight, I had already been cut in sparring, I was hoping it would'nt be an issue tonight, but when it opened up, It prevented me unfolding my gameplan which was to go from less to more.

I think most fighters in Chavez position would have said something along those lines......but then DLH made a big stink about Chavez not being able to give him full credit for his victory.
DLH wanted Chavez to say that DLH was the better fighter, and that just was'nt going to happen after that way that fight unfolded.

DLH went as far as to call Chavez less than a man.

The bafoon which is DLH even said he'd never grant Chavez a rematch until he accepted that he legitly was defeated......
We all know of the validity of DLH promises.....he also said he would'nt give Fernando Vargas the benefit of a payday......and both times, when he saw the window of shot fighters before him.....he invites both fighters in for paydays!:rofl :rofl :lol:

I just dont have respect for characters like DLH!

[Robbi]

.....and Robbi, anytime Chavez attempted to get on the inside in his range in those early rounds, he found himself wiping blood from his vision site.
Chavez could never get into his rhythm, because DLH's jab was targeting that cut.
....with a parry'er like Chavez, you recieve alot of deflected shots in the the facial area, and that is'nt good when you're already cut up.
......from Chavez' own accounts afterward, he was'nt going to be able to up the tempo at his leisure and begin to set traps, because his vision was'nt going to let him.....so he had to step on the accelerator then and now in that 4th round, and hope to catch DLH with something.
....it just was'nt the Chavez way to do things, but he had no choice on the matter. Chavez stepped on the gas in that 4th round while DLH was still relatively fresh and fast, and he ate punches that furthered opened up his cut.....which then resulted in the cuts stoppage.

Divac, you said in your previous post that "Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early" He did not try to get De La Hoya out there early. Only during the 4th round did he go for broke and throw all his eggs into one basket. He was extremely cautious to say the least up until the start of the 4th round. And once the cut opened up it clearly effected his vision and gameplan as you said. "Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight" What your essentially saying is that right after the cut opened up Chavez fought in a 'Tyson like' fashion. Nonsense. The fact of the matter is that after the cut opened it restricted Chavez from being aggressive. Instead his concentration was effected, he was backed up by the jab, and the blood effected his vision which made his punch output drop.


Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early.

What your saying here is "once the cut opened up" he fought a punchers fight. The only time Chavez tried to get De La Hoya out there early was the start of the 4th round, not right after the cut opened up.

[la-califa]

Skillwise he was on the decline, Mentally he was shot. By then Chavez was believing his own hype, surrounded by yesmen. Partying all night, not training correctly, finding excuses instead of fixing problems. Two years later he attempted to fix these problems in the rematch, but by then physically he WAS shot...

[The Wanderer]

Was Chavez shot?

Close enough I'd say. Not there yet, but ring wars, addictions, injuries, (in particular a back injury suffered in the early 90s that helped slow him down) and constantly wrangling with Don King among other things had certainly taking their toll. Also, his performance in the ring faded noticeably after the Whitaker draw, the bouts with Randall alone show that.

I'd compare it to watching someone drinking hard, pounding shot after shot. There comes a certain point where he's still keeping himself upright and such, but you know there's only one way his night is going to end. Julio's career was just about at that point, if not a little further into it. (Really, was there much of any point carrying on after getting those result with Whitaker and Randall so close together except to try to get to 100 wins?)

[divac]

Divac, you said in your previous post that "Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early" He did not try to get De La Hoya out there early. Only during the 4th round did he go for broke and throw all his eggs into one basket. He was extremely cautious to say the least up until the start of the 4th round. And once the cut opened up it clearly effected his vision and gameplan as you said. "Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight" What your essentially saying is that right after the cut opened up Chavez fought in a 'Tyson like' fashion. Nonsense. The fact of the matter is that after the cut opened it restricted Chavez from being aggressive. Instead his concentration was effected, he was backed up by the jab, and the blood effected his vision which made his punch output drop.


Once the cut opened up, Chavez had no choice but to attempt to fight a punchers fight (which Chavez never was) and try to get DLH out of there early.

What your saying here is "once the cut opened up" he fought a punchers fight. The only time Chavez tried to get De La Hoya out there early was the start of the 4th round, not right after the cut opened up.

Ok Robbi, dont get so technical on the matter of what I exactly said.....

.....my point is that fighting the way Chavez would normally fight, was'nt going to work as blood was streaming down to his eye, effecting his vision.

.....no, Chavez didnt go bonkers and turn into a madman trying to take DLH out as soon as the cut happened, but the 4th round is still an early round......which is what I referred to earlier.

Bottom line, whether anybody thinks Chavez was doomed no matter a cut or not......the cut did actually have a major impact on the fight!
.....the battle plan or game plan went out the window once the cut poured blood!

[mexican legend]

Yep.

[tommy the hat]

Chavez was wel past his prime when he faced De La Hoya in 1996. He was 34 by then, and had nearly 100 bouts by then. Also Chavez was at 140 pounds for this bout. His best years in his prime were at 130 and 135.

[MRBILL]

In a way--YES! The 'Kamau' fight of '95 was Chavez at his finale of greatness......;)

MR.BILL

[fists of fury]

Skillwise he was on the decline, Mentally he was shot. By then Chavez was believing his own hype, surrounded by yesmen. Partying all night, not training correctly, finding excuses instead of fixing problems. Two years later he attempted to fix these problems in the rematch, but by then physically he WAS shot...

True. The mental aspect has not been mentioned enough thus far.

[Jack Presscot]

I would say he was shot personally. To me he never looked the same at 140 as what he was at the lower weights. He was young and hungry, and a force of nature at 130, seemed to be at his best at 135, matured yet still hungry. And then imol wasnt the same again at 140, but still had a desire to emerge victoriious.Randall and Whitaker proved that he was. Why do you think Oscar avoided Tszyu like the plague and chose the easy route instead?

[Bill Butcher]

I watched the fight again for the first time in years at the weekend, and I'm interested to know what CFers think about Chavez at that fight.

To refresh the memory:

- Chavez's record was 96-1-1


Forget records... they dont always tell the whole story.

If Chavez wasnt shot then at very least he was somewhere between shot & past prime.

He never looked any good from the Whitaker fight onwards, sure he beat a couple of decent fighters but he never beat anyone that he wasnt expected to beat even in this advanced phase of his career & he also lost to a guy that if not closing in on being shot he wouldnt have lost to in Randall, even being decked for the 1st time in his life in rd 11.

His friend & countryman Morales was 47-1 going into the 3rd Barrera fight... fast-forward 4 yrs & he is now 48-6.... the decline has got to start somewhere & the record either goes with it or not long after depending on who you fight & DLH was too big & all wrong for that version of JCC.

:thumbsup

[Robbi]

Randall and Whitaker proved that he was. Why do you think Oscar avoided Tszyu like the plague and chose the easy route instead?

Oscar choose no easy route. He eventually fought fighters equally as dangerous who brought money to the table. Trinidad and Quartey at welterweight. Even his first fight at the weight was against Whitaker. Maybe not a devastating puncher, but damn tough to beat.

[SHADOW BOX]

I remember Chavez knocked DLH down a couple of time while sparring. Chavez was at the time 27 and DLH was 17.

[TIGEREDGE]

around 1994-96 julio still had the ability i believe to compete with the best. he just seemed to lose a lot of desire when things werent going his way. like tyson and duran in the later years

[Jack Presscot]

Oscar choose no easy route. He eventually fought fighters equally as dangerous who brought money to the table. Trinidad and Quartey at welterweight. Even his first fight at the weight was against Whitaker. Maybe not a devastating puncher, but damn tough to beat.He avoided Kostya Tszyu at jr. welters the way you avoid women at nightclubs.

[Robbi]

He avoided Kostya Tszyu at jr. welters the way you avoid women at nightclubs.

He moved up and took on more dangerous and tricky opponents. Whitaker, Quartey, and Trinidad.

Get outta here.:lol:

[Jack Presscot]

He moved up and took on more dangerous and tricky opponents. Whitaker, Quartey, and Trinidad.

Get outta here.:lol:He moved up because he knew what kind of power Tszyu had in his right hand. Ask Zab. If Tszyu had been a shot 39 years old, rest assured that Oscar would have set his sights on that IBF belt. :hi:

[Robbi]

He moved up because he knew what kind of power Tszyu had in his right hand. Ask Zab. If Tszyu had been a shot 39 years old, rest assured that Oscar would have set his sights on that IBF belt. :hi:

Tyszu brung nothing to the table in terms of marquee value. De La Hoya took equally tough fights with better rewards. Whitaker, Quartey, and Trinidad.

What you doing on the 'classic' anyway? Get back to the 'general' where your biased views belong.

[MRBILL]

When Chavez drew with Miguel A. Gonzalez in 1998, I knew Chavez had seen better days and better lays.... BUT! His 1999 loss to Willy Wise was the killer..... In 2000, J.C. Chavez had NO BIDNESS fighting a peaked Kostya Tszyu.... That was criminal.... Cheers.....

MR.BILL

[Jack Presscot]

Tyszu brung nothing to the table in terms of marquee value. De La Hoya took equally tough fights with better rewards. Whitaker, Quartey, and Trinidad.

What you doing on the 'classic' anyway? Get back to the 'general' where your biased views belong.Too much risk, too little reward. Oscar would have gotten his Golden Ass kicked by a superior puncher, who was more skilled. Sweetheart, I have forgotten more about the career of the Golden Transvestite than you know now, have ever known,. or will ever know, and you can include the knowledge and wisdom of any three of your buddies who watch the fights with you, and your Biological as well, I'll school all of you, and when I shit on sunday AM, with my morning paper, I wipe away more Classic Boxing Knowledge than you would acquire if you were stuck on a deserted island with Bert Sugar for 10 years.

Class Dismissed.:hi:

[Robbi]

Too much risk, too little reward. Oscar would have gotten his Golden Ass kicked by a superior puncher, who was more skilled. Sweetheart, I have forgotten more about the career of the Golden Transvestite than you know now, have ever known,. or will ever know, and you can include the knowledge and wisdom of any three of your buddies who watch the fights with you, and your Biological as well, I'll school all of you, and when I shit on sunday AM, with my morning paper, I wipe away more Classic Boxing Knowledge than you would acquire if you were stuck on a deserted island with Bert Sugar for 10 years.

Class Dismissed.:hi:

The content of your post proves that you carry no class or manners. We were talking boxing, then you suddenly went off the rails first.

:bolt

[Bad_Intentions]

Not shot but past his prime.

[My2Sense]

I watched the fight again for the first time in years at the weekend, and I'm interested to know what CFers think about Chavez at that fight.

To refresh the memory:

- Chavez's record was 96-1-1

- The fight was at light-welterweight- where Chavez had been fighting regularly since 1989

- He was 34 years old

- Since suffering his first career loss to Frankie Randall in 1994, Chavez had won 7 out of 7 (5 inside the distance) leading up to the 1st DLH fight, including a points win over Giovanni Parisi, and stoppages of Meldrick Taylor, Tony Lopez, and Randall in a rematch

- In his last fight before DLH, Chavez stopped Scott Walker (21-3-1) in the 2nd round

- In his 3 fights following the DLH fight, he stopped Joey Gamache (45-2) in the 8th, and also beat Tony Martin and Larry LaCoursiere



For starters, he didn't "stop" Randall in a rematch, he won a hotly controversial tecnical decision. The two clashed heads, causing a cut on Chavez's head that caused the fight to be stopped. They went to the scorecards and Chavez came away with a split decision. The ending was controversial because:
1) Randall had a point deducted from him, despite the fact that the butt was ruled accidental, and that was the difference in the outcome.
2) Many people thought Randall should've won regardless.
3) There was some question over whether Chavez really quit, or influenced the doctor into stopping the fight.

Chavez's failure to beat Randall without controversy (or give him a rubber match) made his status as a credible champion very dubious going into the DeLaHoya fight.

As far as his "name" opponents from around this time, Lopez and Taylor were both similarly past their primes (and Lopez was never a jr. welterweight anyway), and Gamache was never considered that good after being exposed by Lopez and Nazarov.

The truth about Chavez at this time (beyond the numbers you listed) is that he had not beaten a top fighter still considered in his prime since Randall fights (and in reality, had not beaten one since beating Taylor several years earlier), and had two credibility-wrecking fights with Randall, who was past his own prime and supposed to be an "easy" fight for Chavez. Also, he had to rally to pull out his fight with David Kamau, and some people still thought he was lucky to get the decision anyway.


Having said all that, was he outright "shot" going into the first DeLaHoya fight? I don't know, but he was pretty damn well close to it IMO.

IMO, the last time Chavez showed his top form was against Camacho in '92. After that was a steady and very traceable decline.

[Robbi]

For starters, he didn't "stop" Randall in a rematch, he won a hotly controversial tecnical decision. The two clashed heads, causing a cut on Chavez's head that caused the fight to be stopped. They went to the scorecards and Chavez came away with a split decision. The ending was controversial because:
1) Randall had a point deducted from him, despite the fact that the butt was ruled accidental, and that was the difference in the outcome.
2) Many people thought Randall should've won regardless.
3) There was some question over whether Chavez really quit, or influenced the doctor into stopping the fight.

Chavez's failure to beat Randall without controversy (or give him a rubber match) made his status as a credible champion very dubious going into the DeLaHoya fight.

As far as his "name" opponents from around this time, Lopez and Taylor were both similarly past their primes (and Lopez was never a jr. welterweight anyway), and Gamache was never considered that good after being exposed by Lopez and Nazarov.

The truth about Chavez at this time (beyond the numbers you listed) is that he had not beaten a top fighter still considered in his prime since Randall fights (and in reality, had not beaten one since beating Taylor several years earlier), and had two credibility-wrecking fights with Randall, who was past his own prime and supposed to be an "easy" fight for Chavez. Also, he had to rally to pull out his fight with David Kamau, and some people still thought he was lucky to get the decision anyway.


Having said all that, was he outright "shot" going into the first DeLaHoya fight? I don't know, but he was pretty damn well close to it IMO.

IMO, the last time Chavez showed his top form was against Camacho in '92. After that was a steady and very traceable decline.

You better watch Divac doesn't see that. If he does, expect to be 'crucified'.