Hagler vs Tony Ayala Jr.

[redrooster]

Can Hagler win it? I believe Marvin (peak version only) can possibly win. And why is this? For one, his cast iron jaw. And two, his movement.

But can he really keep this young tiger off of him long enough before Tony closes in and works the body?

Intangibles: If Tony cannot catch hagler's chin cleanly would he instead begin working the body early in the fight? Can Marvin take it to the body?

Nobody ever worked hagler's body before. Thomas hearns said he was going to but Marvin closed in on peak Hitman too quickly and took away his leverage.

I believe Marvin could pull this out based on an actual fight he had against peak Juan Roldan (trained by legendary Tito Lectoure) in which Roldan was conditioned to go 20 fast paced hard fought rounds. The pace of this fight was brutal. Anyone else would have fallen to Roldan - that's for sure including most of the past champions. Roldan would have been too demanding for anyone else.

[Sweet Pea]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[redrooster]

^ yeah what do you know you were in a crib at the time

[Sweet Pea]

a) No, I wasn't.

b) What does that have to do with anything?

[redrooster]

You mean you werent even born yet?

[Sweet Pea]

You mean you werent even born yet?:good

My second question still stands.

[redrooster]

Your second question? Oh God you really weren't born yet! :patsch

You weren't alive then so you don't count. You don't even know how Tony fights

[Sweet Pea]

Your second question? Oh God you really weren't born yet! :patsch

You weren't alive then so you don't count. You don't even know how Tony fightsYou're correct. It sucks they never film boxing matches.

And you were obviously alive to see Abe Attell fight, as you rate him so highly as an ATG. Tell us, what was he like?

[laxpdx]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.

[Loewe]

Prime Leonard would beat both and Terry Norris at the same night!

[Mike T]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.No offense, but nothing I've seen tells me he "destroys", Benitez or MCcallum

[Mike T]

Hearns could get caught with some heavy shit but at 154 he sparks him imo. Too unproven against the elite.

[Rebel-INS]

I honestly don't understand how people rate Tony Ayala so highly. Who did he beat that would show you he could even go the distance with someone as brilliant as Marvin Hagler?

[redrooster]

Prime Leonard would beat both and Terry Norris at the same night!

Prime leonard really showed his mettle with Kalule and Howard :rofl

Terry Norris too

[redrooster]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.

people see this as some kind of joke but I actually see Tony as Marvin's greatest challenge. This is exactly what happened with Juan Roldan. Juan was dismissed as having no chance but as it turned out was his best challenger. He was as strong if not stornger, harder hitting, faster, defensively better, and almost as tough. Had Marvin not been near his prime, Roldan would have won this fight!

Anyone dissagree? Sweet Pea perhaps? Then come on with it!

Anyways, enough about him. My point is you can't take anyone lightly in this business and that applies especially to Tony Ayala, the best fighter the Duvas ever had. And like Richard Sandoval was for Jeff Chandler, he'd be ready for Marvin by 1984 or 1985.

My prediction: after a harrowing bout with peak hitman, Tony pulls off the upset by decision. It's a case of one fighter peaking and the other who is on the decline.

[redrooster]

Sweet Pea dont know shit

[SuzieQ49]

You're correct. It sucks they never film boxing matches.

And you were obviously alive to see Abe Attell fight, as you rate him so highly as an ATG. Tell us, what was he like?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl :rofl :rofl im not gonna lie sweet pea, i nearly fell out of my comfy chair laughing after reading that. you have your moments bro :good

[Minotauro]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.

Out of those fighters I see him beating Moore and Kalue thats it he would lose to everyone else. How would he beat McCallum he tooks Jackson best shots and stood up Mike had some serious power at 154lbs could box very well good defence and proved himself against quality fights. Tony beat nobody who is in Hearns, McCallum, Duran or Benitez's league.

[AREA 53]

I think Marv would treat Tony just as he did another Short Squat Big Left Hookering Tony, - Sibson ! Moving Behind the Jab Early, Steping in with Hard One-Two's, Drawing Tony's Sting, And then Mid-Fight Going on the attack with Hard Fast Combinations - Same Name Same Result ! Marvin circa 6 rds - Thats Boxing for a Trouble Free Win, If Marv when for a Tear-up it would be exciting, Tony May land a few more shots, but make little impression, Marvs Accuracy even in a Fire-Fight too Much for Tony, This Style could end in the 3rd.

Tony would have his hand royally full with Sibson, Hamsho, Roldan, ect
Never Mind The Man Himself.

[Hatesrats]

It's a shame what Tony did...
I almost feel disgusted talking about it now, But
his outside the ring ethic's are his problem not mine.

His career will always be a what if?
The begining of a possible era was never seen.
(Tony Ayala Jr. the prospect died in '83)

As much as I'd like to place him in a select class. (I can't)
Marvin Hagler would prob handle him in Mugabi fashion.

[redrooster]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl :rofl :rofl im not gonna lie sweet pea, i nearly fell out of my comfy chair laughing after reading that. you have your moments bro :good


I put up my photo of Hagler in sparring as proof that I saw him 3 weeks before the leonard fight. How come no one including Pea will bring it up? I know everyone saw it too.

[redrooster]

It's a shame what Tony did...
I almost feel disgusted talking about it now, But
his outside the ring ethic's are his problem not mine.

His career will always be a what if?
The begining of a possible era was never seen.
(Tony Ayala Jr. the prospect died in '83)

As much as I'd like to place him in a select class. (I can't)
Marvin Hagler would prob handle him in Mugabi fashion.

It's a good thing Tony wasnt around in those days. He would shatter Mugabi's glass chin (see the Green fight)

John would try to box Tony but it wouldnt be long at all before he backed up the beast and got him up against the ropes and began beating on him. Tony wins this in Jack Dempsey type fashion

[Loewe]

Prime leonard really showed his mettle with Kalule and Howard :rofl

Terry Norris too

Leonard SD12 Hagler

[redrooster]

Leonard SD12 Hagler

Terry Norris UD 12 Ray Leonard :lol:

[redrooster]

^ I went one better than Lowes. In a direct comparison between both 3-1 favorites, Norris thrashed Leonard, won every round, won six rounds by a margin of 10-8 (rounds 2,3,7,9.10,11) xcored two knockdowns against his outclassed foe, knocked out his tooth, and retired him for 6 years (until a shabby performance by Camacho gave him the courage to return)

Compare this to a mere split decision win over Hagler, a decision I and countless others didnt he deserved. Leonard was sharper and more impressive but just shy of winning.

[redrooster]

Leonard SD12 Hagler

Hector Camacho KO 5 Ray Leonard :smoke

[redrooster]

Roberto Duran W Maj 15 Ray Leonard

[redrooster]

Thomas Hearns D 12 Ray Leonard

Boy, that Leonard sure has a spotty record for a guy with under 40 fights :yep

[Robbi]

Sweet Pea dont know shit


He knows more than you, thats for sure.

[redrooster]

In fact I'm overriding that incompetent judge from Mexico.

Hagler SD 12 Ray Leonard

That makes four losses, five if you include the rematch with Hearns

[redrooster]

He knows more than you, thats for sure.

I'm afraid not my embittered friend. He has very little knowledge about 80s boxing. Manassa does but not Pea brain. The only two fighters he has any real knowledge of are Ray Leonard and Whitaker.

Even so, my knowledge of Leonard is superior to his and probably to the others on this forum. I dig for information, clips, anything. My 1980s library of magazines is top notch. Most of what I've forgotten still exceeds that of many posters here.

And my video collection? We don't even want to go there.

[redrooster]

Anyhow this thread is about Tony. Tony was the finest jr middleweight in the world.

He would have mercilessly stomped the life from the helpless Benitez, punching bags like Kalule. James Green would give Tony a good fight being from the same camp and all. Moore would have fought valiantly before being broken down. It would just be a matter of time but he would have put up a fight. Mugabi would be knocked out. Hearns in 1982 would have been too soon for the hitman, still licking his wounds from the Leonard fight. And short pudgy Duran would give mimimal resistance. Good for him Tony couldn't finish his career.

[Robbi]

I'm afraid not my embittered friend. He has very little knowledge about 80s boxing. Manassa does but not Pea brain. The only two fighters he has any real knowledge of are Ray Leonard and Whitaker.

Even so, my knowledge of Leonard is superior to his and probably to the others on this forum. I dig for information, clips, anything. My 1980s library of magazines is top notch. Most of what I've forgotten still exceeds that of many posters here.

And my video collection? We don't even want to go there.

My 80's magazine collection is top notch as well. Mainly Rings and KO's. And my video collection, around 2000 fights.

To say that Pea only knows about Whitaker and Leonard is very wide of the mark indeed.

Your very knowledgeable, but sadly let yourself down with your biased opinions and remarks. All your knowledge gets overlooked with your anti Leonard campaign.

You collect much programs and posters?

[Rebel-INS]

Anyhow this thread is about Tony. Tony was the finest jr middleweight in the world.

He would have mercilessly stomped the life from the helpless Benitez, punching bags like Kalule. James Green would give Tony a good fight being from the same camp and all. Moore would have fought valiantly before being broken down. It would just be a matter of time but he would have put up a fight. Mugabi would be knocked out. Hearns in 1982 would have been too soon for the hitman, still licking his wounds from the Leonard fight. And short pudgy Duran would give mimimal resistance. Good for him Tony couldn't finish his career.

Do you seriously believe that? Name one fight where he showed he could beat any of the names you put down, or any evidence that he was the greatest jr middle of all time.

You've just jumped on the 'he could've been great if he didn't go to jail' bandwagon, with no evidence to back your argument up.

[redrooster]

Do you seriously believe that? Name one fight where he showed he could beat any of the names you put down, or any evidence that he was the greatest jr middle of all time.

You've just jumped on the 'he could've been great if he didn't go to jail' bandwagon, with no evidence to back your argument up.

I followed Tony early in his career.

It's about physical attributes. match his up against someone like say, Kalule.

How would Kalule stand up to him? He was slow and couldn't dent whipped cream while Tony was the hardest hitting puncher the divison had seen in years.

Don't believe me? Ask Sweet Pea! - Kalule falls in three!

_____________________________________________________________

I couldnt believe it when I heard Duran wanted to fight Tony. That was the talk of the summer of '82

......and if you dont believe me then ask Sweet Pea!

Davey Moore was a relatively new champion who won the title on eight fights experience. Tony would eat thru his swiss cheese defense and crumble by 5 or 6 at the latest.

Hearns I dont see as being strong enough-yet. A fireplug like Tony would be bad news for Tommy. Tommy didnt like too much pressure and would make rounds 6,7 of Leonard-Hearns seem like a picnic.

Hearns falls < ten, his second knockout loss.

And Benitez you can forget too. It would be like the Hamsho fight except he'd get seriously hurt in this one.

[redrooster]

My 80's magazine collection is top notch as well. Mainly Rings and KO's. And my video collection, around 2000 fights.

To say that Pea only knows about Whitaker and Leonard is very wide of the mark indeed.

Your very knowledgeable, but sadly let yourself down with your biased opinions and remarks. All your knowledge gets overlooked with your anti Leonard campaign.

You collect much programs and posters?

I use to collect Big Book of Boxing and International Boxing. Once they were done away with, it left me with an empty feeling. That's how much of a junkie I was.

No programs Robbi. I still got the same pictures of Ali-Quarry and Ali-Spinks painting from Leroy Neiman on my wall.

[Loewe]

Still: Leonard SD12 over your boy Hagler.

[Sweet Pea]

:lol: He continues to duck my post on the very first page and then calls me out on subsequent pages about stuff I never even mentioned in this thread.

You're a class act Rooster.

[laxpdx]

people see this as some kind of joke but I actually see Tony as Marvin's greatest challenge. This is exactly what happened with Juan Roldan. Juan was dismissed as having no chance but as it turned out was his best challenger. He was as strong if not stornger, harder hitting, faster, defensively better, and almost as tough. Had Marvin not been near his prime, Roldan would have won this fight!

Anyone dissagree? Sweet Pea perhaps? Then come on with it!

Anyways, enough about him. My point is you can't take anyone lightly in this business and that applies especially to Tony Ayala, the best fighter the Duvas ever had. And like Richard Sandoval was for Jeff Chandler, he'd be ready for Marvin by 1984 or 1985.

My prediction: after a harrowing bout with peak hitman, Tony pulls off the upset by decision. It's a case of one fighter peaking and the other who is on the decline.

When you said peak hitman, you meant Hagler, not Hearns, correct? Because if you did, I must say that even though I probably would give Marvin the edge, the more I think about it, I envision Tony pulling off a decision win as well. SD, to be exact. As you say, a peaking young tiger vs. a old champion on the decline....I guess I just didn't want Marvin (he's also a fave of mine) to lose his crown, as much as I admire Tony. But it would be to a more than worthy challenger.

[redrooster]

Still: Leonard SD12 over your boy Hagler.

Yeah I've seen how formidable YOUR boy was

Right here--->[Only registered and activated users can see links]

One all time great taking his beating from another all time great

[redrooster]

When you said peak hitman, you meant Hagler, not Hearns, correct? Because if you did, I must say that even though I probably would give Marvin the edge, the more I think about it, I envision Tony pulling off a decision win as well. SD, to be exact. As you say, a peaking young tiger vs. a old champion on the decline....I guess I just didn't want Marvin (he's also a fave of mine) to lose his crown, as much as I admire Tony. But it would be to a more than worthy challenger.

LAXPDX I meant that the war with Tommy left Hagler half the man he was. You could see it in the Mugabi fight, the one that gave Leonard the courage to make a comeback.

It is well known that marvin postponed the fight with John because of the numerous injuries recieved in sparring. Sweet Pea can tell you all about it.

I believe that Tony with his top notch management would be ready and do to Marvin what Mugabi failed to do and what Roldan almost did.

As you know, Roldan was winning the fight and even one eye gave Marvin the fight of his life. IMO, Roldan would have beaten Marvin on points given two good eyes and based on the trend of the fight

Yes, Marvin is the greatest middleweight of all time but even he can't reign forever and doesn't have enough in the well to turn back such an opponent

[bruno's_chin]

Is there anywhere I can see footage of Ayala?

[redrooster]

he used to be on Youtube but you know how easy it is to get videos taken down there.

[bruno's_chin]

i was looking but couldnt find him, always wanted to see him, heard he was amazing, How old was he when he got jailed?

[natonic]

This is an astronomical projection about Ayala. Who's the best fighter he ever beat? I don't know, not too many good ones on his resume. Robbie Epps?

Jose "The Threat" Baret looked awesome too in that era until he started fighting good fighters. Mark Breland was supposed to be better than Tommy Hearns.

You can't make the leap to say he'd beat an all time great like Hagler. There's just no evidence. Ayala was born about 150 years too late. Back then in the wild west, he could've went about banging chicks without permission and not suffered serious consequences. As it is, it's just wasted POTENTIAL, which doesn't translate all the time into success.
If he didn't have the discipline to keep his dick in his pants, why should we assume he had the discipline to put in the training to beat a monster like Hagler (that's assuming he had the talent to beat hagler, which I don't assume). He had a punch, but nobody knocked out Hagler.
Assuming he could've kept himself out of jail, he would've gone the way of Scypion, Hamsho, Obel, and Sibson against Hagler. And that's making the HUGE assumption that he could've built up his resume enough to get a shot at Hagler.

[redrooster]

i was looking but couldnt find him, always wanted to see him, heard he was amazing, How old was he when he got jailed?

He was just 20 at the time and probably 2 or 3 years from his peak. His unbridled ferocity hadnt been seen since the days of Dempsey. You just knew what was going to happen once the bell rung. It was like unleashing your pitbull on someone.

[redrooster]

This is an astronomical projection about Ayala. Who's the best fighter he ever beat? I don't know, not too many good ones on his resume. Robbie Epps?

Jose "The Threat" Baret looked awesome too in that era until he started fighting good fighters. Mark Breland was supposed to be better than Tommy Hearns.

You can't make the leap to say he'd beat an all time great like Hagler. There's just no evidence. Ayala was born about 150 years too late. Back then in the wild west, he could've went about banging chicks without permission and not suffered serious consequences. As it is, it's just wasted POTENTIAL, which doesn't translate all the time into success.
If he didn't have the discipline to keep his dick in his pants, why should we assume he had the discipline to put in the training to beat a monster like Hagler (that's assuming he had the talent to beat hagler, which I don't assume). He had a punch, but nobody knocked out Hagler.
Assuming he could've kept himself out of jail, he would've gone the way of Scypion, Hamsho, Obel, and Sibson against Hagler. And that's making the HUGE assumption that he could've built up his resume enough to get a shot at Hagler.

Of course, every great fighter has their share of doubters :roll:

[Loewe]

Of course, every great fighter has their share of doubters :roll:

Ayala isn´t great.

[natonic]

Of course, every great fighter has their share of doubters :roll:

I wish he'd have gone on to fulfill his POTENTIAL. There was cetainly a frenzy about him. But we'll never know and I don't think there's any way we can speculate him handling Hagler.

[SuzieQ49]

i was checking over tony ayalas resume and what top 10 guy did he beat in the early 1980s that indicated he would have any kind of a chance vs hagler, hearns, duran, leonard, benitez?

[laxpdx]

What Tony did to Cuevas, Moore and Czyz in sparring says something in itself.

[redrooster]

Ayala isn´t great.

Really? Well your B-O-Y wasn't great he was just some puny welterweight who ducked half a dozen fighters in their prime, some punk who picked fights with old has beens. Who else ducked fighters the way Leonard does? Only those who fall under the label of protected media darling

Suckers click here-->
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Loewe]

Really? Well your B-O-Y wasn't great he was just some puny welterweight who ducked half a dozen fighters in their prime, some punk who picked fights with old has beens. Who else ducked fighters the way Leonard does? Only those who fall under the label of protected media darling

Suckers click here-->
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Who did Ayala beat to be called great? What did he achieve to be labeled great?

Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, Duran and Hagler and was champ from ww to lhw. There´s a little difference.

[SorceryatCaesar]

which hagler?
the one who fell asleep in Anutofermo 1 and Duran and Leonard rounds 1-4?
or the tiger who destroyed Minter and Roldan and Hearns?

[laxpdx]

which hagler?
the one who fell asleep in Anutofermo 1 and Duran and Leonard rounds 1-4?
or the tiger who destroyed Minter and Roldan and Hearns?

If it's peak Hagler who dominated Sibson and Hamsho, I give Marvin a SLIGHT edge. If it's post-Hearns, I'd favor Tony.

[redrooster]

which hagler?
the one who fell asleep in Anutofermo 1 and Duran and Leonard rounds 1-4?
or the tiger who destroyed Minter and Roldan and Hearns?

Actually I was referring to post Hearns Hagler. Just the fact that Marvin had to postpone the Mugabi fight for 3 months is evidence he was damaged goods coming into it. Marvin really sturggled to win it whereas in the past he probably wouldn't work up much of a sweat taking out the beast.

[redrooster]

If it's peak Hagler who dominated Sibson and Hamsho, I give Marvin a SLIGHT edge. If it's post-Hearns, I'd favor Tony.

LAXPDX the Hagler who destroyed Minter is the best middleweight I've seen. When he goes into destruct mode as he did with Lee, who can stop him?

[laxpdx]

LAXPDX the Hagler who destroyed Minter is the best middleweight I've seen. When he goes into destruct mode as he did with Lee, who can stop him?

How much of an edge would you give that Marvin over Tony?

[Stonehands89]

I think that Captain Caveman would beat the Red Hulk. By split decision.

"Ayala beats Marvin Hagler." Gimme a break.

[redrooster]

How much of an edge would you give that Marvin over Tony?

This is the same kind of attack he used against Hearns and Lee and I dont care what anyone says that Minter would have won if not for the cuts. Only a retard would believe a quote from another retard that wrote it.

Sorry LAXPDX, I had to get that off my chest.

Stranger things have happened in boxing. They both seem evenly matched but Marvin with his 50+ fights should have enough experience to cope and plus he's versatile and sturdy. Hagler should definitely make a fight of it.

The Hagler from the Leonard fight would have been knocked stiff. Too slow, too immobile and absolutely no power or reflexes whatsoever to hold off a young devourer like Tony. Tony would have walked right thru his right jab, his last remaining weapon. Hell, he almost lost to Mugabi!

Stranger things have happened. Remember that a lot of people including myself thought Richie Sandoval didn't belong in the ring with Chandler with him being a prospect and all but as it turned out, Chandler was no match for him.

Also keep in mind the same thing happened between Sugar Ray leonard and Terry Norris. We all know how that turned out. A surprise to many people but not me.

[redrooster]

I think that Captain Caveman would beat the Red Hulk. By split decision.

"Ayala beats Marvin Hagler." Gimme a break.

Stone hands I know you're a big Duran fan. Do you remember when the fight between Duran and Ayala was publicized?

Only a handful of people here would remember it. Even with nothing in writing Duran seemed to want the fight with him.

I really thought the fight was too dangerous for him to take at the time then came the Laing fight and Tony went off to prison. Everyone seemed safe from the threat of the bull but Duran was really languishing.

There was even a discussion between Duran, who was campaigning as a junior middle, and James hard rock Green and even Green got more respect. Of course, that was before his demise at the hands of Animal Fletcher.

Your thoughts on a Duran-Ayala matchup? Do you really believe Roberto could take him then?

[Stonehands89]

Stone hands I know you're a big Duran fan. Do you remember when the fight between Duran and Ayala was publicized?

Only a handful of people here would remember it. Even with nothing in writing Duran seemed to want the fight with him.

I really thought the fight was too dangerous for him to take at the time then came the Laing fight and Tony went off to prison. Everyone seemed safe from the threat of the bull but Duran was really languishing.

There was even a discussion between Duran, who was campaigning as a junior middle, and James hard rock Green and even Green got more respect. Of course, that was before his demise at the hands of Animal Fletcher.

Your thoughts on a Duran-Ayala matchup? Do you really believe Roberto could take him then?
I sure do remember the talk of Duran-Ayala. It was all over the neighborhood in 82. They almost did fight on Broadway in NYC in the summer of '82. Ayala was walking with Lou Duva. Duran, pot-belly and all was standing in a doorway singing with friends. They got in each other's face, according to Duva.

Duran is easy to hypothesize about in these ESB H2Hs because you have to consider him at his best -LW, DeJesus III. WW, Leonard I, MW, Hagler or maybe even Barkley... etc. At JMW, it's obviously the Moore fight where he was at his best, because Duran was up for that one.

The plan was for Ayala to fight Moore and then defend against Duran. I would favor Ayala to beat Moore, but Ayala to beat an inspired Duran going for his third title? That's a whole different beast.

Keep in mind, Ayala would have been about 22-0. Duran was 76-4 and had just handled a faded banger in Cuevas with relative ease. The experience factor would have made all the difference in the world: Ayala best opponent would have been the 12-0 Moore. Ayala's style is made for a Duran and age would not have been a factor. In fact, it would be in Duran's favor because he would not be nervy and he knew how to relax and pace itself. Ayala could barely control his rage in there. He even kicked a couple of opponents who had made fun of his mother after the stoppage. That kind of fighter just isn't going to beat Duran. Anger is the enemy in there, but Duran's anger was applied in science.

I've always looked at guys like Ayala and Mayorga as poor men's Durans.

Duran would have taken him apart. With ease.

[SorceryatCaesar]

Ayala, as I recall, did not like to get hit.
He was a terrific front-runner.
But wasn't too happy when somebody stood up to him.
Your basic bully.

[laxpdx]

I sure do remember the talk of Duran-Ayala. It was all over the neighborhood in 82. They almost did fight on Broadway in NYC in the summer of '82. Ayala was walking with Lou Duva. Duran, pot-belly and all was standing in a doorway singing with friends. They got in each other's face, according to Duva.

Duran is easy to hypothesize about in these ESB H2Hs because you have to consider him at his best -LW, DeJesus III. WW, Leonard I, MW, Hagler or maybe even Barkley... etc. At JMW, it's obviously the Moore fight where he was at his best, because Duran was up for that one.

The plan was for Ayala to fight Moore and then defend against Duran. I would favor Ayala to beat Moore, but Ayala to beat an inspired Duran going for his third title? That's a whole different beast.

Keep in mind, Ayala would have been about 22-0. Duran was 76-4 and had just handled a faded banger in Cuevas with relative ease. The experience factor would have made all the difference in the world: Ayala best opponent would have been the 12-0 Moore. Ayala's style is made for a Duran and age would not have been a factor. In fact, it would be in Duran's favor because he would not be nervy and he knew how to relax and pace itself. Ayala could barely control his rage in there. He even kicked a couple of opponents who had made fun of his mother after the stoppage. That kind of fighter just isn't going to beat Duran. Anger is the enemy in there, but Duran's anger was applied in science.

I've always looked at guys like Ayala and Mayorga as poor men's Durans.

Duran would have taken him apart. With ease.

That's a really good post, but I personally just don't see Duran being able to handle Ayala at 154. It's just that with Tony being bigger-boned, stronger, younger and that he hit a LOT harder, not to mention the relentlessness of his attack, he would've been too much for THAT version of Roberto to deal with. Roberto was carrying too much weight.
I just don't think that Duran would've been able to keep up with Tony for too long. He'd be constantly backing Duran against the ropes and mercilessly pound him until Roberto simply wore out.

Duran wasn't bad at this weight considering everything, but Tony just had unnatural talent and power.

[Stonehands89]

That's a really good post, but I personally just don't see Duran being able to handle Ayala at 154. It's just that with Tony being bigger-boned, stronger, younger and that he hit a LOT harder, not to mention the relentlessness of his attack, he would've been too much for THAT version of Roberto to deal with. Roberto was carrying too much weight.
I just don't think that Duran would've been able to keep up with Tony for too long. He'd be constantly backing Duran against the ropes and mercilessly pound him until Roberto simply wore out.

Duran wasn't bad at this weight considering everything, but Tony just had unnatural talent and power.
Thats what they said in 1983 when Duran was about to fight Davey Moore...: younger, stronger, bigger boned, and he hit harder, and Duran was carrying too much weight. Duran ruined him in 8 rounds. That's not all. Duran steps up another division and faces Marvin Hagler who was bigger and stronger than Ayala. OOooops! That's not all, Duran rises from the ashes at the age of 37 and faces down a 6'1 MW who later campaigned as a HW.

--Have you been in a time capsule for the past 25 years?

Read your post again -it should change your mind after you think about it! As it stands now, I'm afraid that you overrate Ayala, and you woefully underrate Duran.

Again, Duran... would.... take ....Ayala ....apart.

[laxpdx]

.....

[laxpdx]

Read your post again -it should change your mind after you think about it! As it stands now, I'm afraid that you overrate Ayala, and you woefully underrate Duran.

Respectfully, I don't think I do. Roberto certainly was impressive in upsets over Barkley and Moore, but I just can't see him beating Ayala. Neither Davey nor Iran had nearly as much raw talent as Tony, hit nearly as hard or attacked as viciously. Not to mention Tony always dropped Moore with ease in sparring, without benefit of a thumb in Davey's eye.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

[JohnThomas1]

Ayala, as I recall, did not like to get hit.
He was a terrific front-runner.
But wasn't too happy when somebody stood up to him.
Your basic bully.

In his only meaningful career there are zero examples to form this opinion. He never lost for starters, so how could we possibly know? It's zero use looking at the unit who fought post prison 17 years later.

Possibly the most Ayala got stood up to was the fight he was dropped in then went berko to leave opponent flat on the canvas. He then spat on him.

Of course he was never really tested at all against anyone meaningful before going to prison.

[Stonehands89]

Respectfully, I don't think I do. Roberto certainly was impressive in upsets over Barkley and Moore, but I just can't see him beating Ayala. Neither Davey nor Iran had nearly as much raw talent as Tony, hit nearly as hard or attacked as viciously. Not to mention Tony always dropped Moore with ease in sparring, without benefit of a thumb in Davey's eye.

But you are entitled to your opinion.
-and you to yours. I'll give you this much. The way you feel about Ayala is very close to how I feel about Ike Ibeabuchi -another knucklehead who blew his life to smithereens- and others have a real problem with the heights I see him potentially getting too -including over Lennox and Klitschko. He showed me that much.

Both men had danger written all over over them.

[laxpdx]

-and you to yours. I'll give you this much. The way you feel about Ayala is very close to how I feel about Ike Ibeabuchi -another knucklehead who blew his life to smithereens- and others have a real problem with the heights I see him potentially getting too -including over Lennox and Klitschko. He showed me that much.

Both men had danger written all over over them.

and both had similar records before going to prison....22-0 for Tony, 20-0 for Ike.

[Waynegrade]

Ayala vs. Duran, good fight. I lean towards Duran, but El Torito was a vicious finisher. As for Hagler Ayala, all Hagler. He could box his ears off, and Ayala couldn`t dent the Marvelous one`s chin. And Hagler`s power and combinations would be too much for Ayala. late rd. stoppage.

[laxpdx]

Ayala vs. Duran, good fight. I lean towards Duran, but El Torito was a vicious finisher. As for Hagler Ayala, all Hagler. He could box his ears off, and Ayala couldn`t dent the Marvelous one`s chin. And Hagler`s power and combinations would be too much for Ayala. late rd. stoppage.

I am one of Tony Ayala's few fans on this site, and after reading much about him, I must say that I think only peak Hagler could've taken Tony. He was such a rare talent. An exceptional combination of extraordinary skill, power and utter rage.

On the down side, even if by some miracle Tony didn't go to jail for rape, drugs and alcohol would've gotten him. Tony said that himself.

We'll never truly know, but it sure is fascinating to speculate on what might have been.

[Waynegrade]

I agree. He was an incredible talent. Just a kid, not all that many fights. And we are speculating about him fighting two all time greats! I loved watching him back then. he had one fight (think it was Mario Maldonado?) who knocked Tony down. As he was getting up he started yelling at Maldonado. And I think he knocked him out in the next round. How about his fight with former stablemate Robbie Epps? El Torito blew him out in less than one round. He was absolutley at his most violent best that night. Sad story that his demons got the best of him...I am one of Tony Ayala's few fans on this site, and after reading much about him, I must say that I think only peak Hagler could've taken Tony. He was such a rare talent. An exceptional combination of extraordinary skill, power and utter rage.

On the down side, even if by some miracle Tony didn't go to jail for rape, drugs and alcohol would've gotten him. Tony said that himself.

We'll never truly know, but it sure is fascinating to speculate on what might have been.

[Xplosive]

Hagler would have fucked Tony up..... badly.

[redrooster]

I would never compare Mayorga with Tony Ayala. Tony was the genuine article and in the same catagory as Hector Camacho as prospect of the year. No jr middle was going to stand up to him. It is my opinion that Tommy Hearns would have never fought him.

[Xplosive]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.

LMAO!:rofl :rofl

Ayala at best would have been on the level of Vargas, only more talented than Nando. But still, he would NOT have beaten Leonard, Hearns, and CERTAINLY not Hagler, or McCallum.

He would have beaten Moore, and possibly Duran, but I woulda favored Roberto. Ayala would have brought out the best in Duran.

[JohnThomas1]

I would never compare Mayorga with Tony Ayala.

Neither would i. Mayorga is much more proven both ways. Mayroga's actually fought AND beat much better fighters than Tony ever did.

It is my opinion that Tommy Hearns would have never fought him.

Tony definately made sure of that.

Hearns would have hit him that hard and fast he'd have thought he was surrounded.

:good

[zadfrak]

That's it.

Most folks evaluate fighters based on punching power and things like ko %. I look at defense not offense, because there really are relatively few ko blowouts in big fights. But you need to dig deeper than punching power and just look at things a few branches out from the trunk of the tree. And Ayala held those hands real low in there. And he was hardly fast handed or a twinkletoes when it came to footwork. He threw bodyshots from way way out on the outside. He dipped to the side to throw a left hook. And he was always stationary right in front of his opponent and very susceptible to a good jab. He just wasn't matched up against a jabber.

Telegraphing punches and a wide open defense aren't that big of a factor when facing the likes of Gregory and Herrera. It sure is when you go up in class and have to start thinking about defending against the speed and accuracy of the left hand Hearns threw. Or the 2 handed accuracy from the ton of combinations a guy like Hagler throws. Or dealing with the mobility of Leonard. Or the durability of a guy like Mccallum. Whole different ballgame when you look at the tools those guys had vs. the tools guys like Epps and Hallicy, and those grade C and B opponents Ayala beat.

I think Ayala would've beat a face first catcher like Moore. But there were lots of other guys around at the time capable of giving Ayala a hard fight & he had no experience against that caliber of top 10 opponent.

[laxpdx]

I would never compare Mayorga with Tony Ayala. Tony was the genuine article and in the same catagory as Hector Camacho as prospect of the year. No jr middle was going to stand up to him. It is my opinion that Tommy Hearns would have never fought him.

It sure is scary to think of what Tony would've done to Mayorga, though. Imagine how savagely he'd run over a trash talker like Ricardo who really pissed him off!

[he grant]

Tony Ayala remains another of boxings what if's ....we will never know because he is a sick guy and threw his career away .... that being said he was very impressive on his way up but to say he would have been a test for Hagler is a leap of faith .... dreaming Ayala reached the highest levels anyone imagined ...

Ayala was a pudgy 154 pounder, essentially a smaller man ... he was a hard hitting, hooking sort of swarming guy ... exactly the type a prime Hager, with iron chin, razor sharp punches and killer power chopped up ...

I see Hagler in about five or six ...

[redrooster]

It sure is scary to think of what Tony would've done to Mayorga, though. Imagine how savagely he'd run over a trash talker like Ricardo who really pissed him off!

People have problems envisioning what Tony could really do to an opponent. THey try to look for ways to discredit him saying he dipped just before throwing his left hook, brought his hands too low, that he wouldn't match up well with "a jabber", criticizing his handspeed, his footwork, etc. unable to deal with a mover like Leonard, same thing that happened before the plodder Julian Jackson with no footwork put out the lights of twinkletoes Terry Norris.

Some have even gone as far as to say he was just another Mayorga, not even realizing who his trainer was.

They said the same things about George Foreman, that he'd never be ready for Joe and Terry Norris, that he'd never be ready for Ray Leonard. We've seen all this negative talk before. People dont want to believe that a newcomer like Tony would have totally changed the landscape of boxing and decimating their heroes, picking them off one at a time.

I think it's wishful thinking to honestly believe that a little movement would actually bother Tony or discourage him. Ray Leonard and Benitez would have certainly gone down to defeat. Ray Leonard had never faced anyone like Tony and neither had Wilfred except for Hamsho, whom he failed miserable against.

Thomas Hearns too- Tommy didnt like pressure. He never did well against this type; Minchillo, Roldan. Tommy would fall before ten, victim of severely bruised ribs.

[JohnThomas1]

People have problems envisioning what Tony could really do to an opponent.
That's because he never fought anything better than a semi corpse. Any argument?

THey try to look for ways to discredit him saying he dipped just before throwing his left hook, brought his hands too low, that he wouldn't match up well with "a jabber", criticizing his handspeed, his footwork, etc. unable to deal with a mover like Leonard
He did indeed have amateur mistakes. Whether he had the power, chin and determination to mask such flaws vs semi decent opposition or fix them we will never know.

same thing that happened before the plodder Julian Jackson with no footwork put out the lights of twinkletoes Terry Norris.

When you put a good puncher vs Norris's glass jaw anything can happen. When you put a GREAT puncher against him with good hand speed, well, you know the rest.

They said the same things about George Foreman, that he'd never be ready for Joe and Terry Norris, that he'd never be ready for Ray Leonard.
They didn't exactly know what Foreman was packing did they.

As for Norris, he was the right man in the right place at the right time.

We've seen all this negative talk before. People dont want to believe that a newcomer like Tony would have totally changed the landscape of boxing and decimating their heroes, picking them off one at a time.
What a pile of fantasmic BS. Tony didn't prove he could "pick off" any top 10 opponent.

I think it's wishful thinking to honestly believe that a little movement would actually bother Tony or discourage him.
The tiniest movement of a decent ass sure worried him ;)

Ray Leonard and Benitez would have certainly gone down to defeat.
:nut

Ray Leonard had never faced anyone like Tony and neither had Wilfred
Fair point, i can't remember either facing a violent rapist who ended up in prison.

Thomas Hearns too- Tommy didnt like pressure. He never did well against this type; Minchillo, Roldan. Tommy would fall before ten, victim of severely bruised ribs.
Yeah, Hearns is the unproven one in this matchup :rofl

[natonic]

That's because he never fought anything better than a semi corpse. Any argument?



He did indeed have amateur mistakes. Whether he had the power, chin and determination to mask such flaws vs semi decent opposition or fix them we will never know.



When you put a good puncher vs Norris's glass jaw anything can happen. When you put a GREAT puncher against him with good hand speed, well, you know the rest.



They didn't exactly know what Foreman was packing did they.

As for Norris, he was the right man in the right place at the right time.



What a pile of fantasmic BS. Tony didn't prove he could "pick off" any top 10 opponent.



The tiniest movement of a decent ass sure worried him ;)



:nut



Fair point, i can't remember either facing a voilent rapist who ended up in prison.



Yeah, Hearns is the unproven one in this matchup :rofl

I tend to ignore the mindless Leonard bashing and the Ayala hero worship, but this is a great reply.

[JohnThomas1]

I tend to ignore the mindless Leonard bashing and the Ayala hero worship, but this is a great reply.

I do too unless i am bored.

Cheers

[enquirer]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Xplosive]

Neither would i. Mayorga is much more proven both ways. Mayroga's actually fought AND beat much better fighters than Tony ever did.



Tony definately made sure of that.

Hearns would have hit him that hard and fast he'd have thought he was surrounded.

:good

Ayala would have destroyed Mayorga, I'll give him that much. Mayorga was a flash in the pan who just happened to have Forrest's number. Stylewise Tony woulda beaten the shit outta Ricardo.

A more interesting matchup would be the young Ayala vs a prime Vargas. Now THAT would have been a war!

[laxpdx]

Ayala would have destroyed Mayorga, I'll give him that much. Mayorga was a flash in the pan who just happened to have Forrest's number. Stylewise Tony woulda beaten the shit outta Ricardo.

A more interesting matchup would be the young Ayala vs a prime Vargas. Now THAT would have been a war!

Tony would've shredded Vargas as quickly as Mayorga. Fernando would make the mistake of gunning with Tony and get flattened.

[zadfrak]

Mayorga is very similar to the guys Ayala fought----all easy to hit. Ayala had an opponent list like Riddick Bowe's; always matched up with guys that were very easy to hit and guys that weren't big punchers. Whole different ballgame facing elite fighters and continuing to get the same results.

You also have the age factor--early starters like Ayala don't last all that long. They win titles early and lose them early. To me, Ayala's career would've been like a Cuevas; a juggernaut when winning and mediocre > losing. And Ayala had a style that would see him take a beating before he'd lose. Then you have a rebuilding project on your hands and not very many brawler type guys ever have the same effectiveness in there > tasting defeat.

If Ayala is/was so great, I must need to re-evalute the skills of Epps/Herrera/Hallicy/Gregory and so forth. I never held them in high esteem and pretty much pegged them as set-ups going into those Ayala fights. I sure didn't know anyone picking any of those guys to be competitive, let alone win those fights, did you? The first live body he would've faced was Moore and that was a guy that was never going to hold onto a title for very long. And he was another easy to hit opponent.

[JohnThomas1]

Ayala would have destroyed Mayorga, I'll give him that much. Mayorga was a flash in the pan who just happened to have Forrest's number. Stylewise Tony woulda beaten the shit outta Ricardo.

A more interesting matchup would be the young Ayala vs a prime Vargas. Now THAT would have been a war!

He probably would have, but no-one can argue Maorga was a helluva lot better than any fighter Ayala ever beat.

That's the thing here, Ayala never beat anybody at all. At least with Mayorga we know what he has and hasn't got.

Do we know with 100% certainty Ayala even took a good punch?

I agree his talent was EXCEPTIONAL, but he would not be the first can't miss to fall flat on his face.

I'm still far from convinced he could beat Moore with all his heart and give and take ability.

[enquirer]

If mugabi had have been incarcerated before the hagler fight would folks say he would have beaten hagler,hearns,mcallum and such like?
Even a proven star like mark breland never lived up to his hype and supposed talent,nobody would seriously suggest that breland would beat hearns,leonard,curry and such like,yet here we have rooster and laxydaxy claiming a pudgy unproven lt middle would beat hagler!!!!!!!
And better still would bash hearns,mccallum and such greats.......
Pure fanboy nonsense....
At least tyson fans can say he had a great little title reign and beat some world class fighters easily and brutally.....

[redrooster]

As much as I respect Vargas he would be helpless before Tony and beaten to a pulp, wishing it was DLH instead. You people just associate Tony with Fernando just because the two of them are Mexican/badboys. That's as far as your in depth knowledge goes. And I dont see any resemblance between Mayorga and Tony. I don't know where they got that from. There is no rsemblance in the way they fouught whatsoever. Mayorga is just a crude brawler and isn't even trained here in the States.

[Xplosive]

Tony would've shredded Vargas as quickly as Mayorga. Fernando would make the mistake of gunning with Tony and get flattened.

Ayala would not have shredded Vargas quickly. The pre-Tito Vargas was a helluva fighter, and I dont think Tony's power was any more murderous than Tito's. Ayala certainly had more firepower than Vargas though, and that might have been the differance, but it woulda been a war.

And to the guy that said you're not sure if Ayala beats Moore. Yes he would have. Ayala would have wasted Moore. Davey was no slouch, but the talent differance between he & Ayala was too big for Davey to have won.

Ayala would've been a helluva fighter had he not gone to prison, but Hagler was just something special. As was Leonard, and Hearns.

[Mantequilla]

Moore tends to get underrated when compared to Ayala imo.

he had plenty of talent himself, while being the better boxer-puncher of the two.

the Duran fight often gets mentioned when comparing the two, but the closest Ayala ever got to Duran was the first time he shook his hand.

[JIm Broughton]

A peak Hagler stops Ayala somewhere around the 9th or 10th round. Too much class and ability. Tony never fought anyone near the level of a peak Hagler. Tony might give Marvin some rough moments early in the fight but as it wears on Hagler's experience, power, chin and boxing ability come to the fore and do the job.

[laxpdx]

Ayala would not have shredded Vargas quickly. The pre-Tito Vargas was a helluva fighter, and I dont think Tony's power was any more murderous than Tito's. Ayala certainly had more firepower than Vargas though, and that might have been the differance, but it woulda been a war.

And to the guy that said you're not sure if Ayala beats Moore. Yes he would have. Ayala would have wasted Moore. Davey was no slouch, but the talent differance between he & Ayala was too big for Davey to have won.

Ayala would've been a helluva fighter had he not gone to prison, but Hagler was just something special. As was Leonard, and Hearns.

I don't see Tito lasting too long against Ayala either. Trinidad's a hell of a fighter. However, Tony was bigger, stronger, much harder-hitting and would've been backing Felix up fast. Tony would've swarmed and pounded him in the ropes until Tito collapsed.

Hagler, esp. the prime version, as well as Leonard and Hearns, were indeed something special. However, I think only Hagler, in top form, could've possibly taken Tony. I give Roy Jones a chance as well.

Tony Ayala Jr. was an unnatural talent.

However, not everybody thinks so. And that's their right.

[enquirer]

If i may lax,why is your every post about ayala? Are you a boxing fan or an ayala fan?

[Xplosive]

I don't see Tito lasting too long against Ayala either. Trinidad's a hell of a fighter. However, Tony was bigger, stronger, much harder-hitting and would've been backing Felix up fast. Tony would've swarmed and pounded him in the ropes until Tito collapsed.

Hagler, esp. the prime version, as well as Leonard and Hearns, were indeed something special. However, I think only Hagler, in top form, could've possibly taken Tony. I give Roy Jones a chance as well.

Tony Ayala Jr. was an unnatural talent.

However, not everybody thinks so. And that's their right.

Theres never been a fighter that traded with Tito and won. And while Ayala had great talent, so did a prime Trinidad.

As it is, Tito was far more proven, and I think would have blasted Ayala out.

And you give Jones a chance? LMMFAO! Roy Jones would have sent that rapist piece of shit to an early grave!

[Xplosive]

If i may lax,why is your every post about ayala? Are you a boxing fan or an ayala fan?

A delusional Ayala fan at that!

[laxpdx]

If i may lax,why is your every post about ayala? Are you a boxing fan or an ayala fan?

I am both. I've loosely followed boxing for many years. I was a fan of SRL as a kid, also loved Hagler and Hearns. Had lots of respect for Duran. Growing up in heavily Hispanic South Texas, I kept up with Julio Cesar Chavez, as he's practically a folk here down there. I wasn't a big fan of Julio, but I love DeLaHoya. Great boxer and great person.

I remember reading a few articles on Tony when I was a kid. However, it's only been in the last few years that I've really become obsessed with Tony. His story is so fascinating. I've read so much articles about him lately, and he just seemed like a special talent that comes along once in a lifetime. Beating up Cuevas at 14 was just one of the highlights. The downside though is that he was as personally troubled as he was talented. Being raised in a super-tough, super-macho environment, coupled with being molested as a child, young Tony dealt with his pain in self-destructive ways. He was drinking and doing heroin as early as age 12. Then there was the way he treated women.

The Tony Ayala story is fascinating indeed, however I admit I also have Asperger's syndrome. One of its symptoms is obsessive-compulsive tendencies.

I have lots of fixations on certain things. Tony's just one of them.

[enquirer]

Ok,i understand now. Didnt mean to be rude,peace....:good

[laxpdx]

Ok,i understand now. Didnt mean to be rude,peace....:good

I knew you didn't....John Thomas asked me about it, too.

[enquirer]

On youtube i found no footage of ayala,any youd recommend laxpdx?

[Xplosive]

I agree with whoever said Ayala would done well vs hittable guys, who werent huge punchers. Thats why he'd have done well vs Moore, Vargas, or a guy like Matthew Hilton, but not done well at all vs Leonard, Hagler, McCallum or Hearns. And ppl give Ayala a chance vs Hearns cuz of Tommy's chin, keep in mind that Hearns ate short, squat bangers like Ayala for breakfast. Cuevas, Duran, even Roldan. Juan Roldan might not have been as skilled as Ayala, but he was naturally bigger and was a big puncher. Hearns would have starched Ayala. Tommy was no damn Robbie Epps!

I dont think Ayala would have beaten a prime Donald Curry either.

[Xplosive]

On youtube i found no footage of ayala,any youd recommend laxpdx?

His 1 round destruction of Robbie Epps.

[laxpdx]

On youtube i found no footage of ayala,any youd recommend laxpdx?

Like Xplosive said, his KO of Epps. There used to be footage of Ayala-Gregory on youtube. It was over in three, although Tony looked a bit lethargic in that one.

To name a few others, Herrera, Baltazar, and Baquedano Rendiz (on the undercard of Leonard-Hearns I). All were brutally finished.

Against Maldonado, he was knocked down in the first, but Mario was savagely annihilated by the 3rd and quit.

I wish I could find footage of 14-year old Tony's demolition of prime Cuevas, or his sessions with Bobby Czyz and Davey Moore. Tony gave them both severe beatings.

I'm waiting for youtube to post Tony again, hopefully. I'd recommend any Tony videos you can find, honestly. As long as they're not POST-prison. His second career was a joke.

[zadfrak]

Those were sparring sessions.

Have you seen those Ayala fights that he went the distance, or went long rounds against Cottrell/Baker/Cheatam?

[Xplosive]

Those were sparring sessions.

Have you seen those Ayala fights that he went the distance, or went long rounds against Cottrell/Baker/Cheatam?

Ive seen the Cheatam fight. Tony took his time in that fight, and methodically destroyed Cheatham in 6.

Tony's most impressive win is over Herrea, which was his last fight before prison. Herrra was a ranked guy, who went the distance with hard punching Maurice Hope. Ayala took him out with one left hook.

[JohnThomas1]

Ok,i understand now. Didnt mean to be rude,peace....:good

laxpdx is a champ, i might take to Tony a bit but he and i PM a bit and i showed him ages ago where plenty of Ayala fights were obtainable if he wanted to chase them up one day etc.

[redrooster]

laxpdx is a champ, i might take to Tony a bit but he and i PM a bit and i showed him ages ago where plenty of Ayala fights were obtainable if he wanted to chase them up one day etc.

LAXPDX is a class act! :good

[Waynegrade]

Hitman vs. El Torito? Now thats a great fight

[birddog]

I can't believe this is a real thread

[enquirer]

Im cool now with laxpdx johnthomas,but whats up with roosty???!!! :rofl

[JohnThomas1]

Im cool now with laxpdx johnthomas,but whats up with roosty???!!! :rofl

Fellow Ayala lovers

:D

[Xplosive]

I can't believe this is a real thread

I agree. A prospect who never even faced a world class opponent being discussed in a matchup with arguably the best middleweight ever.

[laxpdx]

I agree. A prospect who never even faced a world class opponent being discussed in a matchup with arguably the best middleweight ever.

Tony, you're the man, but you just can't win everybody over!

[Xplosive]

Oh well Tony, you can't win everybody over!

Not when discussing his chances against Hagler. Could you please explain to me how Tony would beat Hagler? Hagler had the best chin of all time so Tony aint stopping him, and Ayala certainly couldnt outbox Marvin. So how does he win?

[laxpdx]

Not when discussing his chances against Hagler. Could you please explain to me how Tony would beat Hagler? Hagler had the best chin of all time so Tony aint stopping him, and Ayala certainly couldnt outbox Marvin. So how does he win?

What I said earlier was that if Tony was fighting a prime Hagler, then I'd give Hagler a SLIM edge, as I think they are pretty evenly matched. However, if it was post-Hearns Marvin, then Ayala would clearly win, as Hagler was in steady decline by that point.

[laxpdx]

laxpdx is a champ, i might take to Tony a bit but he and i PM a bit and i showed him ages ago where plenty of Ayala fights were obtainable if he wanted to chase them up one day etc.

Thank you John, you're a gentleman, too!

[laxpdx]

LAXPDX is a class act! :good

Thank you, Rooster! What would I do without you?

[MAG1965]

As I've said before, the only guy I think had a chance against Ayala the young tiger was prime Hagler. Offhand, I give Marvin the edge, simply because he was so unbeatable at that time. But I'd have second thoughts about betting the family fortune on it. I'm hard pressed to think of many fighers who had that lethal combination of raw talent, power and rage like Tony Ayala Jr.

I often think about how Tony's career would've happened had he not succumbed to his demons. After dropping Davey Moore, I have him kicking Duran's ass twice, taking 2/3 vs. Hearns, utterly destroying Benitez, Mugabi, McCallum, Kalule, etc. One fight at Jr. MW I have Tony badly losing though is to Julian Jackson.

But when he rises to full-fledged MW to challenge Mr. Hagler? I see this taking place around 1985, right before the end of Marvin's prime. And people definitely get their money's worth. It is a classic punch-fest for the ages. Overall, I see Hagler containing Tony, but not stopping him. Had this fight been a year or two before, Hagler may have won by LAST round TKO or decision. But this one I see ending in a draw, as Hagler still has enough left in the tank to not lose. The two exhausted warriors embrace afterward, with nothing less than utmost respect for one another.


Marvelous Marvin is now officially in steady decline, and Ray Leonard sees the writing on the wall.
well saying Tony would just walk through all those guys is easy to do with words, but in reality I see him losing to all the greats. Hearns would have swelled him up and knocked him out in 3 or 4, Hagler would have stopped Tony in 6. Benitez would out box him. Leonard would stop him in 8. Duran would have stopped him in 10.. Tony just was not the quality of those guys and really we will never know, but I saw him fight lesser quality and get hurt a few times. He was not that great.

[MAG1965]

Hitman vs. El Torito? Now thats a great fight
Hearns fought them all. All of them. Hearns had sharp fast hands and could punch and box at the 154 pound class. Tony Ayala would not have wanted this fight. Ayala couldn't even beat Campas later, and I know people say he was older, but he did not have much wear and tear on him. He should have been able to beat Campas. The quality of opposition for Ayala does not really prove anything about him fighting the greats like Hagler and Hearns and Duran and Leonard and Benitez. Just many steps above. As it is, Tony will never be thought of as even a good fighter.

[ThinBlack]

Marvin would have kayoed the myth that is Tony Ayala Jr. in three rounds.

[KOTF]

Hagler will show Tony Ayala how to properly rape somebody. This would be very painful for El Torito as he gets beaten down badly.

[anarci]

i was checking over tony ayalas resume and what top 10 guy did he beat in the early 1980s that indicated he would have any kind of a chance vs hagler, hearns, duran, leonard, benitez? Actually he never beat guys in those guys class, but he did beat a couple top 10 guys like Carlos Herrera,And Robbie Epps who was coming off a big win over top contender Dwight Davison and Ayala took him out in 1 round. Also kod former contender and title challenger Steve Gregory. Mario Maldanado was a very tough fringe contender.

Ok i think Tony was better than many of you think. Im not gonna put him on the pedestal some of the others did,but Ayala could really fight and for any of you that werent around back then Ayala was truly a force to be reckoned with and had an indimitating presence about him like Tyson.

With that being said Hagler would probably have to much experience for him but dont think for a minute hed back down to Hagler. Hagler would truly have to lay alot of hurt on Tony to discourage him. I think this would be a FOTY type and i think the momentum would switch back and forth. Hagler might drop Tony in the early rounds,but that would just piss of Tony more and thats when this fight would get brutal. Going into the 8th round this fight would be pretty even,but after that Haglers experience starts to take over and he would do better by countering Tony and occasionly taking it to him around the 11th Hagler explodes on a Faded Ayala and stops him.


I know these are 2 diffrent fighters with diffrent styles but think Tito and Vargas for a moment and you might get an idea how this fight would turn out, except that Ayala had a better chin than Vargas.

[anarci]

Hearns fought them all. All of them. Hearns had sharp fast hands and could punch and box at the 154 pound class. Tony Ayala would not have wanted this fight. Ayala couldn't even beat Campas later, and I know people say he was older, but he did not have much wear and tear on him. He should have been able to beat Campas. The quality of opposition for Ayala does not really prove anything about him fighting the greats like Hagler and Hearns and Duran and Leonard and Benitez. Just many steps above. As it is, Tony will never be thought of as even a good fighter.
That Campas fight comparison is sad:-( I dont care what fighter you want to name,no one could have done 20 years in prison and come out the same fighter you were before.:nono If anything Ayala fought pretty well for being 40 and out the ring for 20 years. He showed flashes of what could have been. Forget the Bonsante fight he was already washed up compared to even the Campas fight.

[anarci]

I hope this goes throught this im trying to post the Epps and Ayala fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[laxpdx]

Actually he never beat guys in those guys class, but he did beat a couple top 10 guys like Carlos Herrera,And Robbie Epps who was coming off a big win over top contender Dwight Davison and Ayala took him out in 1 round. Also kod former contender and title challenger Steve Gregory. Mario Maldanado was a very tough fringe contender.

Ok i think Tony was better than many of you think. Im not gonna put him on the pedestal some of the others did,but Ayala could really fight and for any of you that werent around back then Ayala was truly a force to be reckoned with and had an indimitating presence about him like Tyson.

With that being said Hagler would probably have to much experience for him but dont think for a minute hed back down to Hagler. Hagler would truly have to lay alot of hurt on Tony to discourage him. I think this would be a FOTY type and i think the momentum would switch back and forth. Hagler might drop Tony in the early rounds,but that would just piss of Tony more and thats when this fight would get brutal. Going into the 8th round this fight would be pretty even,but after that Haglers experience starts to take over and he would do better by countering Tony and occasionly taking it to him around the 11th Hagler explodes on a Faded Ayala and stops him.


I know these are 2 diffrent fighters with diffrent styles but think Tito and Vargas for a moment and you might get an idea how this fight would turn out, except that Ayala had a better chin than Vargas.

At last someone with objectivity! :good

Yes, a prime Hagler would've probably won by late KO in a very brutal war, whereas post-Hearns Hagler would've lost.

[anarci]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[The Morlocks]

At last someone with objectivity! :good

Yes, a prime Hagler would've probably won by late KO in a very brutal war, whereas post-Hearns Hagler would've lost.
Why not just stop fuckin around and say the truth. If he hadn't gone to jail, he probably would have ko'd Tyson in 2 in 1987 and began a 13 year reign as heavyweight champion. After he retired, he would have gone to Afghanistan at the behest of the State Department and singlehandedly beaten the taliban and terrorists and intimidated Binlandin into retiring. His record clearly shows him capable of all these feats and when he was seriously wobbled when knocked down by Maldanado means nothing. If you can beat Robbie Epps and Mike Baker and Ferocious Steve Gregory, you can beat anyone. Next to John Ruiz, he is the most underrated and misunderstood fighter in history. He was no rapist, he was just aggressively friendly.

[leverage]

Ayala had great potential but never fought someone of Haglers calibre. He'd be in over his head and take terrible punishment. He'd also likely get the heart beat out of him, sending him on a progressive decline. Ayala liked to rape women, this time he gets raped: Hagler by brutal tko in 7.

[haglerforever]

Ayala had great potential but never fought someone of Haglers calibre. He'd be in over his head and take terrible punishment. He'd also likely get the heart beat out of him, sending him on a progressive decline. Ayala liked to rape women, this time he gets raped: Hagler by brutal tko in 7.

Very well put.........................

[MAG1965]

To be fair. Ayala was a good prospect in the early 1980's. He would have probably beaten Davey Moore, and then he might have been matched with either Roberto Duran or Wilfred Benitez and defended against them, or maybe fought a unification with Hearns, - I think those three guys would have beaten him, but had he avoided the legends he could have met up with guys like Minchillo and Drayton and he could have beaten them and had a decent run. But it is hard to tell now how good Ayala really was, but he did look like a powerful fighter and exciting.

[thesham01]

i just opened this in disbelief that arguably the greatest ever middleweight is put up against an untested prospect

but what joy when in the first few replies Rooster gets owned again!i feel sorry for him,i really do....

Hagler by early T/KO.... inside 6, in an exciting enough/all action fight while it lasted

[Doc McCoy]

Why not just stop fuckin around and say the truth. If he hadn't gone to jail, he probably would have ko'd Tyson in 2 in 1987 and began a 13 year reign as heavyweight champion. After he retired, he would have gone to Afghanistan at the behest of the State Department and singlehandedly beaten the taliban and terrorists and intimidated Binlandin into retiring. His record clearly shows him capable of all these feats and when he was seriously wobbled when knocked down by Maldanado means nothing. If you can beat Robbie Epps and Mike Baker and Ferocious Steve Gregory, you can beat anyone. Next to John Ruiz, he is the most underrated and misunderstood fighter in history. He was no rapist, he was just aggressively friendly.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[PowerPuncher]

What about his mentality - a bully/rapist, how does the bully react when he cant hurt his opponent? How does he react when he cant hit his opponent? What about when he starts to get his own treatment back but worse? how does he react against much faster opponents who can outbox him?

[Rubber Warrior]

Can Hagler win it? I believe Marvin (peak version only) can possibly win. And why is this? For one, his cast iron jaw. And two, his movement.

But can he really keep this young tiger off of him long enough before Tony closes in and works the body?

Intangibles: If Tony cannot catch hagler's chin cleanly would he instead begin working the body early in the fight? Can Marvin take it to the body?

Nobody ever worked hagler's body before. Thomas hearns said he was going to but Marvin closed in on peak Hitman too quickly and took away his leverage.

I believe Marvin could pull this out based on an actual fight he had against peak Juan Roldan (trained by legendary Tito Lectoure) in which Roldan was conditioned to go 20 fast paced hard fought rounds. The pace of this fight was brutal. Anyone else would have fallen to Roldan - that's for sure including most of the past champions. Roldan would have been too demanding for anyone else.

The in-decline Hagler of the Mugabi fight would have out-slugged and beaten down Ayala over the course of rounds. The smooth boxing counter-punching Hagler of his prime would have methodically disassembled El Torito before sending him back to the drawing board....headache and all.

[I am Legion]

This is a weird thread. When Ayala got banged up he was still only considered a prospect. No one was talking about him as a serious threat to Hagler, Hearns and co.

He was good but his career finished so early you just can't say what he could have done. He could easily have ended up a journey man.

Besides, he was an nasty bastard:rastaand fuck him anyways

Legion - Life is short, you're a long time dead.:yep

[Rubber Warrior]

This is a weird thread. When Ayala got banged up he was still only considered a prospect. No one was talking about him as a serious threat to Hagler, Hearns and co.

He was good but his career finished so early you just can't say what he could have done. He could easily have ended up a journey man.

Besides, he was an nasty bastard:rastaand fuck him anyways

Legion - Life is short, you're a long time dead.:yep

:good