Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

[McGrain]

Frazier is happy the judges got it wrong and the boys at the New York Times seem to have agreed...anyone else?

[Thread Stealer]

It seemed like a fair decision, but I didn't watch it that carefully. It was a pretty dreadful fight and I wouldn't want to sit through it again to score it.

[McGrain]

It was a pretty dreadful fight and I wouldn't want to sit through it again to score it.

Yes. Apparantley Futch re-watched it and counted 133 clinches.

[Jose FM]

I had the first fight for ali actually

[dragosuhail]

:patsch the first fight for ali? fraiser was a man possessed that night

[Jose FM]

Witness the unholy power of the ali legend, in fights where he got beaten like he stole something nuthuggers somehow find a way for him to actually have won.
You know, if theres anyone that i do nuthug it probably is Ali, but i think the scoring of today and in the 60s was totally different cause Ali was landing alot of shots cleanly, granted he faded down the stretch, but everytime i watch the fight i hear the anouncers say that Alis clinching is going against his scoring. I see that all the time these days, a prime example is just this last weekends fight, Wright Vs. Hops, Wright was landing the cleaner shots, Bhop was doing most of the clinching and yet Bhop won the fight! Granted this was no Ali-Frazier, but the scoring is very different today. Going back to my original point, i think if that fight happened today, judges would score it for Ali, for his ring generalship, and clean punching.

[Dempsey1238]

Ring Generalship??? Fraizer had Ali pin on the ropes for most of that fight.

[Jose FM]

Ring Generalship??? Fraizer had Ali pin on the ropes for most of that fight.
Towards the end of the fight yes, indeed, no denying that. However this was a 15 round fight, and Ali did alot of dancing then would stop and nail Frazier to his head with flashy combos.

[The Kurgan]

It seemed like a fair decision, but I didn't watch it that carefully. It was a pretty dreadful fight and I wouldn't want to sit through it again to score it.

True. Time after time, the action was stopped due to clinching. YAWN.

[Dempsey1238]

Try the 7th round on, Ali took the early rounds, But Frazier control the fight from the middlerounds on, and won BIG in rounds 11 and 15. I just dont see how one can score it for Ali.

[Marnoff]

You know, if theres anyone that i do nuthug it probably is Ali, but i think the scoring of today and in the 60s was totally different cause Ali was landing alot of shots cleanly, granted he faded down the stretch, but everytime i watch the fight i hear the anouncers say that Alis clinching is going against his scoring. I see that all the time these days, a prime example is just this last weekends fight, Wright Vs. Hops, Wright was landing the cleaner shots, Bhop was doing most of the clinching and yet Bhop won the fight! Granted this was no Ali-Frazier, but the scoring is very different today. Going back to my original point, i think if that fight happened today, judges would score it for Ali, for his ring generalship, and clean punching.

First of all, the fight wasn't in the 60s. Second, Hopkins landed the cleaner, more effective shots all night. Check out the first round, for instance. You'll find a beautiful right hand landing on Wright, flush.

[Seamus]

ali/frazier II was not a world class effort by either faction. still i had frazier winning.

as great as he was, ali was amplified by the media. not quite a media creation, but media-subsidized, perhaps.

[Street Lethal]

I had the first fight for ali actually

It was a close fight, but I think Frazier sealed the deal in the 11th and 15th rounds. Ali really put on a show early, didn't he? But he clowned around too much later on. Smokin' Joe was all business in there, and that's what the judges were looking for. Ali probably landed more punches, but Frazier's had more authority. He was the effective aggressor. Ali made most of the clinches. I don't think I have ever seen Ali in more trouble than he was in round 11. Joe had him on queer street.

[Street Lethal]

The second fight I thought Ali won but I have never scored it.

[C. M. Clay II]

Only an extreme Ali-hater would score the second fight for Frazier. Ali controlled the fight the whole time and was never in any trouble. He even had Frazier in big trouble in the second round, and if not for the referee stopping the action, Frazier probably would have gone down in that round. Frazier didn't win more than three rouds, IMO. I scored the fight 9-2-1 in favor of Ali.:good

[My dinner with Conteh]

7-5 Ali is about right.

[Holmes' Jab]

Fair verdict. Ali won the second fight, clearly.

[Sonny's jab]

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.

[jhar26]

Both verdicts were correct IMO, Frazier won the first fight, Ali the second one.

[jhar26]

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.
I agree with that: the ref should have warned Ali for holding and took away points if he continued doing it. But the judges can only score the fight on the basis of the action that takes place, not on what they think would happen if the ref would enforce the rules. Going by what happened in the fight, Ali was the winner IMO. It's not the judges fault that the ref doesn't do his job.

[Sonny's jab]

I agree with that: the ref should have warned Ali for holding and took away points if he continued doing it. But the judges can only score the fight on the basis of the action that takes place, not on what they think would happen if the ref would enforce the rules. Going by what happened in the fight, Ali was the winner IMO. It's not the judges fault that the ref doesn't do his job.

I dont disagree.

Ali did enough positive boxing to outweigh what Frazier did. But he relied on his negative illegal tactics to do so.

But it boils down to whether judges can independently penalize Ali for his negative illegal tactics. I'd say they ought to be allowed to. If Ali apparently out-scores Frazier in a round but wrestles, grabs, holds and spoils his way through - and the referee ignores it all - I think the judges should be able to give it a 10-10 round even if Frazier scored with nothing. A fighter who is clearly trying to stall and disturb a fight should be marked down, whether the ref allows it or not.

Having said that, I'm not arguing with the verdict. I just think Frazier has good reason to say Ali didn't beat him. It's a tainted victory, but it shows Ali craftiness - which is part of what made him so great.

[mcvey]

Frazier is happy the judges got it wrong and the boys at the New York Times seem to have agreed...anyone else?
I dont think it was even close.

[McGrain]

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I agree.

I don't like the referee in that fight. At all.

[My dinner with Conteh]

A geezer called Jerry Fitch who used to freelance for Boxing News thought Frazier won too. He didn't of course- but the refereeing was very poor.

[quintonjacksonfan]

If the ref wasn't so incompetent Ali might have had Fraizer out in the
second round.

[Street Lethal]

If the ref wasn't so incompetent Ali might have had Fraizer out in the
second round.

That was a weird moment.

[C. M. Clay II]

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.

Terrible example. Bruno was docked points for hitting behind Tyson's head, not for holding. it's called ring generalship. Clinching is part of the game. Ali just figured out the right way to beat Frazier, that's all. Ali won the fight clearly, period.:good

[McGrain]

it's called ring generalship. Clinching is part of the game. Ali just figured out the right way to beat Frazier, that's all.

With co operation from the ref...but I agree he did find the right plan, I agree.

[yancey]

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.

Damn good post.

Ali got away with a lot in that 2nd fight with Frazier.

[Luigi1985]

I scored the fight 9-2-1 in favor of Ali.:good



You have a similar score like me, I had it 12-0 rounds for Ali! :thumbsup

[Mendoza]

What were the punch stat numbers in this fight? I'd like to watch it and score it for myself.

[Luigi1985]

What were the punch stat numbers in this fight? I'd like to watch it and score it for myself.


You don´t need it, the well-known objective poster C.M. Clay II did score it 9-2-1 for Ali... :lol:

[Mendoza]

You don´t need it, the well-known objective poster C.M. Clay II did score it 9-2-1 for Ali... :lol:

I think C.M. Clay owes us a bit more than that. Can he tell us which two rounds he gave to Frazier?

[Luigi1985]

I think C.M. Clay owes us a bit more than that. Can he tell us which two rounds he gave to Frazier?

To be honest, I think he really scored the bout 12-0 for Ali, but he gave 2 rounds Frazier, because otherwise other people would notice that he can´t be taken serious when it comes to Ali (as if someone takes him serious here on ESB)... :lol:


back to topic, it wasn´t such a good fight like the 1st or the 3rd, but it was definitely a close fight with most rounds being pretty close, so it could have gone either way. A Frazier- win wouldn´t have been a robbery or so, but if I remember correctly I scored 6-5-1 for Ali...

[mcvey]

Frazier is happy the judges got it wrong and the boys at the New York Times seem to have agreed...anyone else?
Ray Charles,Stevie Wonder ,and Jose Feliciano !

[True Writer]

Like many Ali fights, Ali Vs Fraizer 2 was fucking boring. I could not sit through that again.

[Holmes' Jab]

I scored it 8-4, Ali.

[Jbuz]

ali/frazier II was not a world class effort by either faction. still i had frazier winning.

as great as he was, ali was amplified by the media. not quite a media creation, but media-subsidized, perhaps.

Oh please. This whole anti-Ali phase is insane. No, I'm not jumping on you because you're "bringing down Ali". However, it has recently become a "thing to do" to talk down about Ali a bit, and it just seems like people jump on the bandwagon. People can't just say "I scored the fight for Frazier" or something, it has to be, "I thought Frazier won.. Ali is overrated and was a media creation ra ra ra". It's annoying.

If you think Frazier won the fight - you're an idiot - but degrading Ali doesn't have to follow!

[note: This is not directed solely at you, it's at the trend in general, you are a mere example.]

**Cue the Marciano crew to jump in and tell me I'm a nuthugger and that I don't let anyone have an opinion that goes against Ali. Yeah, okay guys...:roll: ***

[Jbuz]

I scored it 8-4, Ali.

Me too. Can't remember what rounds, because I don't like the fight and haven't seen it in ages. Too many clinches.

[ChrisPontius]

You have a similar score like me, I had it 12-0 rounds for Ali! :thumbsup

I actually had it 13-0 for Ali! I gave him an extra round for knocking out Frazier in the 2nd round.

[achillesthegreat]

First fight was close but fair to Frazier. Second fight was close but fair to Ali. Third fight was close and it was all on the line and Ali won down the stretch.

First and second was about who fought their fight that little bit more. The third was just pure fight and in the end something had to give.

Ali bent the rules no doubt but so did Joe hence the fact Ali got a haemorrage in his hip (first fight) from all Frazier body shots that strayed low when he had Ali on the ropes.

[Dempsey1238]

Wow this is a old one.

But yeah as said plenty of times, Ali won the 2nd fight. Yes it was ugly, but than again, not all of em can be classics I suppose.

[round15]

Ali won this fight because the boxing hierarchy made sure of that. If he had lost two to Frazier, it would've changed his legacy for sure. This fight was closer than the scorecards indicated and I strongly think it could've gone either way. Red Smith and Dave Anderson both had Frazier winning this fight. I've heard some say that Frazier was robbed in this fight but I personally don't think either man did enough to win decisively. Ali did his best to make it a non-fight by mugging, hugging and holding Frazier whenever he could. It was bad enough that any other referee might have taken a point away from Ali. With that being said, Ali might've had Frazier on the floor in the second round after the right hand he landed. Perez was really off that night.

[Mendoza]

Ali won this fight because the boxing hierarchy made sure of that. If he had lost two to Frazier, it would've changed his legacy for sure. This fight was closer than the scorecards indicated and I strongly think it could've gone either way. Red Smith and Dave Anderson both had Frazier winning this fight. I've heard some say that Frazier was robbed in this fight but I personally don't think either man did enough to win decisively. Ali did his best to make it a non-fight by mugging, hugging and holding Frazier whenever he could. It was bad enough that any other referee might have taken a point away from Ali. With that being said, Ali might've had Frazier on the floor in the second round after the right hand he landed. Perez was really off that night.

Intersting information. Welcome to the board Round 15.

[Bokaj]

Ali won this fight because the boxing hierarchy made sure of that. If he had lost two to Frazier, it would've changed his legacy for sure. This fight was closer than the scorecards indicated and I strongly think it could've gone either way. Red Smith and Dave Anderson both had Frazier winning this fight. I've heard some say that Frazier was robbed in this fight but I personally don't think either man did enough to win decisively. Ali did his best to make it a non-fight by mugging, hugging and holding Frazier whenever he could. It was bad enough that any other referee might have taken a point away from Ali. With that being said, Ali might've had Frazier on the floor in the second round after the right hand he landed. Perez was really off that night.

If I remember correctly Red Smith was known to be anti-Ali. Thing is, you have to be to score that fight any other way than in Ali's favour. He controlled it and fought his fight. Sure, he did a lot of holding, but Joe didn't seem to mind as much during the fight. He rested himself in most of those clinches. Compare to the first and third fight. Ali did as much holding in those two, but Joe just wouldn't have any of it and often shrugged him off or punished him in close.

Ali just had Joe's number in that fight. Stop whining about it. The first one was actually a lot closer, even if Joe won it fair and square.