Roberto Duran at 135lbs

[the cobra]

Duran at his best may well have been the most complete fighter in boxing history, surely as impressive as any other fighter I personally have ever seen.

So, who are the other great lightweights you would pick over him in a 15 round fight and how do you see the fight unfolding?

[werety]

I think Whitaker has the style to beat Duran at lightweight. But in an overall h2h sense I still rate Duran higher.

[Sweet Pea]

The only LW I'd choose over him is the man in my avatar. I've discussed this matchup FAR too often to even remember my points anymore, but in a nutshell I believe Whitaker's ability to fight off the backfoot behind his piston jab(one of the most accurate ever) would offset Duran's game by not allowing him to close the space very often, turning him into a stalker instead of a heads on attacker as he was better at. In the instances that Duran did catch Whitaker or Whitaker was in range, I believe Whitaker's own skills and craftiness, along with his ATG defense, would allow him to hold his own before pulling the fight back out to a distance.

Otherwise, I agree with your thread. Duran is arguably the best fighter I've ever seen on film at his best, I just think personally Whitaker at his best would be a bad stylistic matchup for him.

Me, Robbi, Stonehands, Manassa, etc have argued this to no end though.

[the cobra]

I've always given Whitaker the best chance, but have never really tried to figure out how the fight would unfold. There two of my all-time favorite fighters, possibly my top two favorites, and while Pernell does have a stylistic edge, I still can see Duran potentially dropping Pea in the fight, taking the majority of the later rounds in a 15 rounds fight and taking a very close decision. But the points you made must be taken into account, and I could see Whitaker winning just as well as I could see Duran winning. It would be a great fight, I can't pick a winner out of the two, I do however pick Duran over every other lightweight (as I do with Whitaker). Duran and Benny Leonard are my top 2 overall lightweigths, but H2H it's Duran and Sweet Pea.

[Sweet Pea]

I would however, favor Duran at WW, because Whitaker, while able to use the same upperbody movement, used a much more flat footed stance. Better footwork at LW, though he was still able to fight off the backfoot at WW. Just better balance and more nimble on his feet at LW, and overall better physically.

[the cobra]

Yes, I've always favored Duran over Whitaker at 147lbs. There wasn't a huge difference between Duran in his prime at 135lbs and Duran in either the 1st Leonard fight or the Palomino fight, there was however a huge difference between lightweight Whitaker and Welterweight Whitaker.

How do you see Henry Armstrong doing against Duran? Similar to Duran-Whitaker, I'm not so sure how this fight would end up, and can't really pick a winner.

[Sweet Pea]

Yes, I've always favored Duran over Whitaker at 147lbs. There wasn't a huge difference between Duran in his prime at 135lbs and Duran in either the 1st Leonard fight or the Palomino fight, there was however a huge difference between lightweight Whitaker and Welterweight Whitaker.

How do you see Henry Armstrong doing against Duran? Similar to Duran-Whitaker, I'm not so sure how this fight would end up, and can't really pick a winner.Definitely Duran IMO, much more versatile. Armstrong was a tank and never stopped coming, amazing stamina, but Duran was just more complete and overall skilled on the inside, as well as more versatile, and Armstrong's come forward style would play into his hands all night. Same thing with Pryor, who's style, while swarming, is at it's best at mid-range, and the more he came at Duran the more he'd be in Duran's grasp to hold the fight at close quarters, where he'd hurt him with body shots.

Ike Williams is the only one I see hanging with Duran in mid to close range at LW, due to his firepower and explosiveness.

[the cobra]

While I do lean towards Duran, I don't believe he was far more skilled than Armstrong on the inside. I believe Armstrong's strength (he appears to be stronger than Duran was), his own power and speed, both of which are really on the same level of Duran, and as good a bodypuncher as Armstrong was, would present some problems. I don't see Roberto going forward more than once or twice in this fight, and each time would only last a few seconds. Duran was without question the more versatile fighter and could fight very well going backwards, but I'm not too sure on how well he would do in a fight were he will always be getting backed up by a fighter with similar speed and power, never-ending stamina and a great chin, plus an excellent bobbing-and-weaving defense of his own. I pick Duran because of his versatility, but I give Armstrong a serious chance, even if his come forward style gives Duran an edge.

[Sweet Pea]

While I do lean towards Duran, I don't believe he was far more skilled than Armstrong on the inside. I believe Armstrong's strength (he appears to be stronger than Duran was), his own power and speed, both of which are really on the same level of Duran, and as good a bodypuncher as Armstrong was, would present some problems. I don't see Roberto going forward more than once or twice in this fight, and each time would only last a few seconds. Duran was without question the more versatile fighter and could fight very well going backwards, but I'm not too sure on how well he would do in a fight were he will always be getting backed up by a fighter with similar speed and power, never-ending stamina and a great chin, plus an excellent bobbing-and-weaving defense of his own. I pick Duran because of his versatility, but I give Armstrong a serious chance, even if his come forward style gives Duran an edge.It's precisely Duran's body attack that would have him winning this one for me. Armstrong was more of a head hunter, and wasn't as skilled inside the clinch or as crafty with his inside work as Duran. Duran's uppercuts to the body and head would land often against the crouching Armstrong. I also believe Duran's angles would befuddle Armstrong at times, or at least cause him to get reset after getting tagged with clean shots.

As for strength, not really sure, Beau Jack was able to out-muscle Armstrong in their bout, and what I think it really comes down to isn't strength, but rather skill, as I just see Duran out-maneuvering the more one-dimensional Armstrong. As for speed, Armstrong had some of the most awkward footwork I've ever seen, I wouldn't classify him as particularly fast, unless you're talking about his hands and the fact that he never stops coming.

I think the fight would take place in the middle of the ring a lot, with Duran doing the shifting and angling to throw Armstrong off balance, all the while scoring points in the process, especially with body and head uppercuts to the vulnerable Armstrong. Armstrong did often bob and weave(he had to with his open style), but his defense and head movement was nowhere near as good as Duran's.

I dunno, I just don't see it as close as you do. I just see Duran as a much better technician, and while Armstrong's strength, power, and relentlessness would make it competitive, Duran just had the style to make Armstrong pay more often than not.

[Xplosive]

Whitaker is the ONLY lightweight in history who would have a realistic chance at beating a prime, lightweight Duran.

Duran woulda gave Chavez the works. Not a knock on Julio, he was an awesome fighter, but everything he did Duran did better.

I dont think Floyd coulda beaten Duran either.

[the cobra]

My only problem with Duran-Armstrong is that I don't see it being in the middle of the ring as you do. Duran was a master technician, no question, but I simply don't see him moving enough to keep Armstrong from backing him up into the ropes, even there Duran could get the better of Armstrong, but it would give Duran problems that he had never experienced. Armstrong was very aakward with his footwork, but it is because of this that I don't see Duran simply sidestepping Armstrong after landing his shots on the inside. I don't think Duran could get away from Armstrong, and this is the only fight where I see Duran as the guy who will be looking more to get away. As crafty and skilled as Duran was on the inside, I don't believe he can sustain a non-stop war with Armstrong waged on the inside as well as Armstrong could with him, he would have to move more than once, but I don't see him keeping Armstrong off for more than a few seconds. I'd go for Duran by something like a 9-6 decision mostly because he will be landing most of the clean and effective punches, but I actually believe Armstrong could at times make Duran feel uncomfortable, which I have never seen Duran. In my view, Most of this fight, not all of it but the vast majority of it, will be waged with Duran's bakc either against or close to the ropes. Even in such a situation Duran could still land, and probably would land, the cleaner shots on the inside, but Roberto never had to deal with something like that, especially at 135lbs. It would be a tough battle IMO, with Duran coming out on top due to his superior defense and more accurate punching and overall versatilty, but by no means do I see Duran simply outboxing Armstrong in between inside exchanges, I see it almost always as an inside fight, with Armstrong holding his own but Duran doing better work.

From what I have seen, I would certainly not call Armstrong a headhunter. Perhaps a bit more than Duran, but he was not that similar to Pryor in this regard.

[Sweet Pea]

That could be, I just don't know why you're so quick to assume Armstrong is the stronger man and would back Duran up often. Duran did go on spells where he'd work less, but in the times he decided to engage with Armstrong I see him getting the better of him for certain. Duran was the one who proved himself up to MW and outfought bigger WW's like Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, etc.

I see your point about it being an in fight, I agree for the most part. I just feel that in the break ups Duran would land clean shots, and would out-maneuver Armstrong in certain spots in the clinch and whatnot. Armstrong's pace would probably be the only issue here, but that's where Duran excelled. To be honest, I don't know why it has to be assumed that Armstrong lasts the distance given all the clean shots he'd be taking all night long. If that doesn't happen than I could see a 9-6 or so Decision for Duran with Armstrong's workrate winning rounds, but I'm not sure he could stand up to that type of punishment.

[bernie4366]

SRL (imho) beat Duran at his own game by slugging with him but lost a questionable decision, and he absolutely outclassed him when he decided to move around and fight his own fight. Duran struggled with mediocre opposition even at 135 and fought guys with less than 5 fights AFTER he won his belt. Several times.

He's seriously overrated. Pernell schools him, JC Superstar smashes him into a puddle.

[Sweet Pea]

SRL (imho) beat Duran at his own game by slugging with him but lost a questionable decision, and he absolutely outclassed him when he decided to move around and fight his own fight. Duran struggled with mediocre opposition even at 135 and fought guys with less than 5 fights AFTER he won his belt. Several times.

He's seriously overrated. Pernell schools him, JC Superstar smashes him into a puddle.Log out. Forget your password.

[jyuza]

The only LW I'd choose over him is the man in my avatar. I've discussed this matchup FAR too often to even remember my points anymore, but in a nutshell I believe Whitaker's ability to fight off the backfoot behind his piston jab(one of the most accurate ever) would offset Duran's game by not allowing him to close the space very often, turning him into a stalker instead of a heads on attacker as he was better at. In the instances that Duran did catch Whitaker or Whitaker was in range, I believe Whitaker's own skills and craftiness, along with his ATG defense, would allow him to hold his own before pulling the fight back out to a distance.

Otherwise, I agree with your thread. Duran is arguably the best fighter I've ever seen on film at his best, I just think personally Whitaker at his best would be a bad stylistic matchup for him.

Me, Robbi, Stonehands, Manassa, etc have argued this to no end though.

Good point, I think I agree with everything. It would be one hell of a fight and pretty close too in my opinion.

[jyuza]

SRL (imho) beat Duran at his own game by slugging with him but lost a questionable decision, and he absolutely outclassed him when he decided to move around and fight his own fight. Duran struggled with mediocre opposition even at 135 and fought guys with less than 5 fights AFTER he won his belt. Several times.

He's seriously overrated. Pernell schools him, JC Superstar smashes him into a puddle.

I think that is the very first time in my life I have seen someone arguing about the winner in the SRL-Duran I.

If Duran is overrated how in the world can he be in almost everybody top 5 ?

[ripcity]

I don't see anyone out slugging Roberto Duran at 135lbs, so I don't see Julio Cesar Chavez even the version who beat Edwin Rosario beating Duran.
Duran at 135 was as complete of a fighter as one can be in boxing, but this dose not make him unbeatable. At 135 it would take someone who could and would use boxing skills as oposed to mix it up with Duran.
I can see Pernell Whitaker and Benny Leonard beating Duran. They would have to work every second of every round to do so but both of them had the skills and mindset to win a boxing match against Duran.

[laxpdx]

Whitaker is the ONLY lightweight in history who would have a realistic chance at beating a prime, lightweight Duran.

Duran woulda gave Chavez the works. Not a knock on Julio, he was an awesome fighter, but everything he did Duran did better.

I dont think Floyd coulda beaten Duran either.

Duran was simply unstoppable at lightweight. However, I also think Whitaker is the one with the best chance against him.

[teeto]

Just seen this thread now, this one has been coming up between me and Sweet Pea quite a bit lately. Like Pea will tell you, this really can go on and on, for me, Whitaker and Duran are the only 2 135pounders that i would consider beating one another, in a h2h sense, they stand alone in that division's history, jusy my opinion, one i do feel quite strongly on though. That actually sounds disrespectful to the other elite and ATG fighters of 135, but its not, i just dont quite favour them over these 2.

Then again though, at 135, Carlos Ortiz and Whitaker would be very interesting imo, think i'd still stick 2 my guns on it though.

Anyway, i have my reasons on Whitaker-Duran, i pick Duran!!

[PowerPuncher]

The Sugar Robinson that fought his first 20 or so fights at 135 is a good shout although SRR may be too green for a prime .

Whitaker and Floyd Mayweather Jr are close matches that could go either way because of the styles and abilities of those men

Armstrong/Chavez aren't going to beat Duran at his own game

[natonic]

Whitaker is a tough style matchup for everyone. But who's a tough style matchup for Whitaker? I say it's Duran. Whitaker never saw anybody close to Duran at Lightweight. Mayweather, Pendleton, Ramirez, Nelson (blownup featherweight). Duran was the guy with the footspeed to cut off the ring. Duran had the defense, the chin, and the ferocity to press Whitaker with impunity. Duran would burtalize Whitaker when he got inside. I hold Whitaker in very high regard, but no I don't see him beating Duran.

[Mantequilla]

I think Ike Williams has the best stylistic chance.

Especially if he backs Duran up.

[Robbi]

Whitaker and Floyd Mayweather Jr are close matches that could go either way because of the styles and abilities of those men

Some people on here see Duran almost putting Mayweather in a coma. I don't see it that way at all. He'd give Duran problems, no question. Not to sure he has the 'magic dust' that Whitaker has to do a similar job.

[sweet_scientist]

Some people on here see Duran almost putting Mayweather in a coma. I don't see it that way at all. He'd give Duran problems, no question. Not to sure he has the 'magic dust' that Whitaker has to do a similar job.

Are you saying Mayweather beats Duran if Mayweather's on coke? :D

[Robbi]

Are you saying Mayweather beats Duran if Mayweather's on coke? :D

I think Mayweather gives Duran a decent fight. An extremely competitive one. However, I'd take Duran via decison.

And anytime I match Mayweather against someone like Duran who went 15 rounds, I will always make a prediction based on it being a 12 round affair. It's common sense IMO. Fighters like Mayweather and Whitaker never went 15 rounds and it's not their fault. Duran went 15 rounds, thus obviously he went 12. So asking Mayweather to go 15 is simply unknown territory. Unfair.

[The Wanderer]

There's not too many that I'd pick. At lightweight Duran was a quick, crafty defensive wiz and had really brutal power in each hand. (And the mean, ruthless and hungry attitude too).

Sadly for someone who has been posting mostly in this section I haven't seen enough footage of Armstrong to feel comfortable in making an analysis, although that's a dream match like few others.

With Arguello, I think Duran would turn up the pressure and try to overwhelm him similar to how Pryor did. Having greater punching power than Pryor and better defense, I think Duran eventually stops him.

Chavez would be a hell of a fight. What I wouldn't give to see it. But as much as I love Julio I think Duran would prevail in a decision, as long as it wasn't one of those fights where he was taking off and was ballooning wildly in weight in between bouts.

Whitaker would be the best chance. The main concern I'd have here is whether Sweet Pea could keep Duran off. Because I do believe Duran is quick enough to pressure Sweet Pea, and he'd walk through anything Whitaker had to dish out. If Whitaker was ready to work every minute of every round he could do it, otherwise Duran might rough him up on the inside and slowly wear him down over the course of the bout.

Mayweather would be a good contrast of styles to watch, but I'd certainly pick Duran. My big thing here is how Mayweather all too often falls into doing one or two punches at a time, and basically conceeding the edge in aggression to the other fighter while he plays defense. One of the ways he sets this up by using his speed and counterpunching in the early rounds to make fighters tentative. Well, nothing in the world I've seen would make Duran tentative, and one or two punches at a time just isn't going to get the job done. Mayweather has the right physical tools to stop Duran, but from what I've seen of it, maybe not the right style, unless he was going to do his busier early style. Duran by late KO or decision.

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker is a tough style matchup for everyone. But who's a tough style matchup for Whitaker? I say it's Duran. Whitaker never saw anybody close to Duran at Lightweight. Mayweather, Pendleton, Ramirez, Nelson (blownup featherweight). Duran was the guy with the footspeed to cut off the ring. Duran had the defense, the chin, and the ferocity to press Whitaker with impunity. Duran would burtalize Whitaker when he got inside. I hold Whitaker in very high regard, but no I don't see him beating Duran.The thing is, Whitaker would know not to stay on the inside for long, he'd mix it up only when neccessary. And his defense compiled with his own very crafty, smooth skills on the inside(his skills rival Duran's in there, Duran just has the power and ferocity) would allow him to hold his own. He was very hard to hit clean to the body as well given the way he blocked his mid-section with his elbows.

[red cobra]

I place Duran at the very top as lightweight champion. There were guys like Ortiz, Whitaker, and I believe Buchanan in a rematch, just to name a very few that wouls have been decisioned, and not blown away or disgraced, but many, many of the great lightweight champs of the past wouldn't have seen the final bell against Roberto, IMO.

[Robbi]

There's not too many that I'd pick. At lightweight Duran was a quick, crafty defensive wiz and had really brutal power in each hand. (And the mean, ruthless and hungry attitude too).

Sadly for someone who has been posting mostly in this section I haven't seen enough footage of Armstrong to feel comfortable in making an analysis, although that's a dream match like few others.

With Arguello, I think Duran would turn up the pressure and try to overwhelm him similar to how Pryor did. Having greater punching power than Pryor and better defense, I think Duran eventually stops him.

Chavez would be a hell of a fight. What I wouldn't give to see it. But as much as I love Julio I think Duran would prevail in a decision, as long as it wasn't one of those fights where he was taking off and was ballooning wildly in weight in between bouts.

Whitaker would be the best chance. The main concern I'd have here is whether Sweet Pea could keep Duran off. Because I do believe Duran is quick enough to pressure Sweet Pea, and he'd walk through anything Whitaker had to dish out. If Whitaker was ready to work every minute of every round he could do it, otherwise Duran might rough him up on the inside and slowly wear him down over the course of the bout.

Mayweather would be a good contrast of styles to watch, but I'd certainly pick Duran. My big thing here is how Mayweather all too often falls into doing one or two punches at a time, and basically conceeding the edge in aggression to the other fighter while he plays defense. One of the ways he sets this up by using his speed and counterpunching in the early rounds to make fighters tentative. Well, nothing in the world I've seen would make Duran tentative, and one or two punches at a time just isn't going to get the job done. Mayweather has the right physical tools to stop Duran, but from what I've seen of it, maybe not the right style, unless he was going to do his busier early style. Duran by late KO or decision.

New poster mate huh. Decent stuff. Keep popping in regularly.

[The Wanderer]

New poster mate huh. Decent stuff. Keep popping in regularly.

Thanks Robbi. :)

Yeah, I've been a boxing fan for awhile, and stumbled onto this forum a few months back, but I only just started posting recently. It's been fun, and I like the different, but informed points of view here on the classic forum.

[ripcity]

Mayweather's style is a bad match up for an agrisive boxer like Duran.

[Sweet Pea]

Mayweather's style is a bad match up for an agrisive boxer like Duran.Not at all. His defense and aggression would be hell for Mayweather,who'd be backed against the ropes often(as he so often allows) and instead of finding easy countering opportunities, he'd be facing a more skilled inside fighter with great defense of his own. Floyd gets beaten up in this fight.

[laxpdx]

Not at all. His defense and aggression would be hell for Mayweather,who'd be backed against the ropes often(as he so often allows) and instead of finding easy countering opportunities, he'd be facing a more skilled inside fighter with great defense of his own. Floyd gets beaten up in this fight.

And then some.

[Robbi]

Not at all. His defense and aggression would be hell for Mayweather,who'd be backed against the ropes often(as he so often allows) and instead of finding easy countering opportunities, he'd be facing a more skilled inside fighter with great defense of his own. Floyd gets beaten up in this fight.

I don't see it as a one sided match. If Mayweather fought like he did against Corrales he'd give Duran a lot of trouble. Yes, I know Corrales isn't in the same class as Duran. Differently styles, blah blah blah. But Mayweather's movement and extremely quick hands would give Duran problems. However, that was at 130lbs.

We need to look at Mayweather's performances at lightweight. You can throw the Castilio I fight out of the window as Mayweather had a torn rotator cuff and hardly used his right hand. A very viable excuse IMO. And just for the record, I thought Mayweather won the fight. And I would expect Mayweather to go to the ropes against Duran on the odd ocassion. Not a good idea of course. Thats one place where Whitaker never opted to go, but Mayweather did.

Looking at Mayweather's close decisions it was steady pressure which gave him problems. Castilio I and De La Hoya. The Duran of the late 70's who was seasoned, patient, resourceful, brilliant defensively, and accurate would be the version to topple Mayweather.

I think Hearns' style presents 'nightmare' problems for Mayweather (147lbs) where as Duran's problem is more of a 'headache'.

[Sweet Pea]

I think Hearns' style presents 'nightmare' problems for Mayweather (147lbs) where as Duran's problem is more of a 'headache'.A migrain headache.

[PowerPuncher]

I don't see it as a one sided match. If Mayweather fought like he did against Corrales he'd give Duran a lot of trouble. Yes, I know Corrales isn't in the same class as Duran. Differently styles, blah blah blah. But Mayweather's movement and extremely quick hands would give Duran problems. However, that was at 130lbs.

We need to look at Mayweather's performances at lightweight. You can throw the Castilio I fight out of the window as Mayweather had a torn rotator cuff and hardly used his right hand. A very viable excuse IMO. And just for the record, I thought Mayweather won the fight. And I would expect Mayweather to go to the ropes against Duran on the odd ocassion. Not a good idea of course. Thats one place where Whitaker never opted to go, but Mayweather did.

Looking at Mayweather's close decisions it was steady pressure which gave him problems. Castilio I and De La Hoya. The Duran of the late 70's who was seasoned, patient, resourceful, brilliant defensively, and accurate would be the version to topple Mayweather.

I think Hearns' style presents 'nightmare' problems for Mayweather (147lbs) where as Duran's problem is more of a 'headache'.

Agreed, on 1 hand Duran had the best pressure Mayweather would have been near, on the other Mayweather had the best defense and countering Duran would face. Duran would also have the best defense Mayweather faced. Mayweather possibly would be the best in fighter Duran would face the inverse is also true. Mayweather would be the best shot picker Duran faced and vice versa. Both have truly great footwork. Both are too of the fastest at the weight.

This is a match up for the ages and anyone who sees it 1 sided for either fighter frankly doesn't know the sport

[Vanboxingfan]

Agreed, on 1 hand Duran had the best pressure Mayweather would have been near, on the other Mayweather had the best defense and countering Duran would face. Duran would also have the best defense Mayweather faced. Mayweather possibly would be the best in fighter Duran would face the inverse is also true. Mayweather would be the best shot picker Duran faced and vice versa. Both have truly great footwork. Both are too of the fastest at the weight.

This is a match up for the ages and anyone who sees it 1 sided for either fighter frankly doesn't know the sport

Don't know about that. To me the difference isn't so much in the skill set, as the mentality. To me, Mayweather is a boxer, while Duran is a fighter. So Mayweather isn't going to be in a position to win a boxing match, he'd have to win a fight, and against Duran, I just don't see it happening. Basically, Duran would break him down over the course of the fight, mostly with bodyshots.

[Robbi]

Agreed, on 1 hand Duran had the best pressure Mayweather would have been near, on the other Mayweather had the best defense and countering Duran would face. Duran would also have the best defense Mayweather faced. Mayweather possibly would be the best in fighter Duran would face the inverse is also true. Mayweather would be the best shot picker Duran faced and vice versa. Both have truly great footwork. Both are too of the fastest at the weight.

This is a match up for the ages and anyone who sees it 1 sided for either fighter frankly doesn't know the sport

The people who pick Duran to murder Mayweather, a lot of them do know a lot about the sport. But the problem is they go on reputation with Duran being around at lightweight 30 years ago. It's just a little thing that fools people with Mayweather being a modern fighter who's still only 31 years old. They look at the times rather than the raw tools each fighters had when picking their winner.

And I disagree. Whitaker's defense was more varied and complexed than Mayweather's. While Mayweather was pretty good inside, he tended just to cover-up most of the time with the uppercut being his best weapon. And regarding jabs, Whitaker clearly has the edge over Mayweather.

IMO Whitaker was better at making opponents miss altogether. Mayweather was the kind of fighter who would invite fighters onto him at times, take parcially landed punches, and counter back. IMO I think Duran lands on Mayweather much more than he does on Whitaker.

[Sweet Pea]

The people who pick Duran to murder Mayweather, a lot of them do know a lot about the sport. But the problem is they go on reputation with Duran being around at lightweight 30 years ago. It's just a little thing that fools people with Mayweather being a modern fighter who's still only 31 years old. They look at the times rather than the raw tools each fighters had when picking their winner.

And I disagree. Whitaker's defense was more varied and complexed than Mayweather's. While Mayweather was pretty good inside, he tended just to cover-up most of the time with the uppercut being his best weapon. And regarding jabs, Whitaker clearly has the edge over Mayweather.

IMO Whitaker was better at making opponents miss altogether. Mayweather was the kind of fighter who would invite fighters onto him at times, take parcially landed punches, and counter back. IMO I think Duran lands on Mayweather much more than he does on Whitaker.Definitely, the main reason for that being Mayweather's willingness to fight off the ropes rather than off the backfoot(of which he's still not as good as Whitaker). Against a guy like Duran, who's not only the more powerful, fierce inside fighter, but the more skilled and versatile, Floyd isn't going to find many easy countering opportunities, and he's going to get tagged cleanly more than he ever has. I think he basically gets beaten up on the inside.

He would make it interesting in stints in the center of the ring, but I think Duran's craftiness even in the center of the ring(that overhand counter right is a doozy for anyone) would allow him to get to Floyd more often than not. He was so skilled at feinting that he'd cause Floyd to cover up often before getting within range and in his chest. Just a bad matchup for Floyd(and an overall better fighter), nothing to do with eras.

[werety]

A quick question Sweat Pea how do you see a match up between Whitaker and Buchanan playing out at LW?

[Sweet Pea]

A quick question Sweat Pea how do you see a match up between Whitaker and Buchanan playing out at LW?Would be an interesting boxing match, with Whitaker's defense giving him the edge. In a nutshell.

[PowerPuncher]

The people who pick Duran to murder Mayweather, a lot of them do know a lot about the sport. But the problem is they go on reputation with Duran being around at lightweight 30 years ago. It's just a little thing that fools people with Mayweather being a modern fighter who's still only 31 years old. They look at the times rather than the raw tools each fighters had when picking their winner.

And I disagree. Whitaker's defense was more varied and complexed than Mayweather's. While Mayweather was pretty good inside, he tended just to cover-up most of the time with the uppercut being his best weapon. And regarding jabs, Whitaker clearly has the edge over Mayweather.

IMO Whitaker was better at making opponents miss altogether. Mayweather was the kind of fighter who would invite fighters onto him at times, take parcially landed punches, and counter back. IMO I think Duran lands on Mayweather much more than he does on Whitaker.

I was comparing Mayweather's defense to everyone Duran faced not to Whitaker. I agree Whitaker was a better mover and a better slipper (the best ever). But Floyd's defense is far more suttle and strategic I can't see Floyd getting put down by Roger Mayweather or Hurtado by the way

[PowerPuncher]

Definitely, the main reason for that being Mayweather's willingness to fight off the ropes rather than off the backfoot(of which he's still not as good as Whitaker). Against a guy like Duran, who's not only the more powerful, fierce inside fighter, but the more skilled and versatile, Floyd isn't going to find many easy countering opportunities, and he's going to get tagged cleanly more than he ever has. I think he basically gets beaten up on the inside.

He would make it interesting in stints in the center of the ring, but I think Duran's craftiness even in the center of the ring(that overhand counter right is a doozy for anyone) would allow him to get to Floyd more often than not. He was so skilled at feinting that he'd cause Floyd to cover up often before getting within range and in his chest. Just a bad matchup for Floyd(and an overall better fighter), nothing to do with eras.

Boxing is like chess if you attack you leave yourself open to being attacked. If you take the iniative as Duran would you leave openings. So despite Duran's excellent defense when he unleashes his combinations he will leave himself somewhat open and thats when Mayweather gets counters off. Mayweather is 1 of the best counter punchers and shot pickers we have seen.

Mayweather is willing to goto the ropes and let his opponent have the initiave somewhat. But Mayweather is 1 of the best 'rope a dope' fighters ever. Just watch his fights with Delahoya, Hatton in slow motion and you will see how infrequently they land. Punches you thought landed the first time of viewing didn't actually land. Now Duran will land more than these 2 but he'll land far less than he did against other top opponents. When on the ropes Mayweather often turns his opponent so they have to.

It should also be noted Mayweather is 1 of the most adaptable fighters. If he can get his shots of first and get out, he does, if he can fight off the ropes he does, if he needs to turn his opponent and stay out of range he does. Mayweather power and strength are also pretty underrated especially at these lower weights. If his opponent is open to any punch he starts to work away at that punch.

I see Duran as an ever so slight favourate in a very close contest all the same but wouldn't be suprised to see it go the other way

[Sweet Pea]

Boxing is like chess if you attack you leave yourself open to being attacked. If you take the iniative as Duran would you leave openings. So despite Duran's excellent defense when he unleashes his combinations he will leave himself somewhat open and thats when Mayweather gets counters off. Mayweather is 1 of the best counter punchers and shot pickers we have seen.

Mayweather is willing to goto the ropes and let his opponent have the initiave somewhat. But Mayweather is 1 of the best 'rope a dope' fighters ever. Just watch his fights with Delahoya, Hatton in slow motion and you will see how infrequently they land. Punches you thought landed the first time of viewing didn't actually land. Now Duran will land more than these 2 but he'll land far less than he did against other top opponents. When on the ropes Mayweather often turns his opponent so they have to.

It should also be noted Mayweather is 1 of the most adaptable fighters. If he can get his shots of first and get out, he does, if he can fight off the ropes he does, if he needs to turn his opponent and stay out of range he does. Mayweather power and strength are also pretty underrated especially at these lower weights. If his opponent is open to any punch he starts to work away at that punch.

I see Duran as an ever so slight favourate in a very close contest all the same but wouldn't be suprised to see it go the other wayIf you'll watch the Mayweather/De La Hoya fight again, you'll also notice that A LOT of Floyd's punches didn't land cleanly, bouncing off Oscar's gloves far more often than not. I thought the punchstats were ludicrous.

Mayweather has excellent defense, he simply lacks the offense needed to beat someone like Duran, who is just as skilled defensively in close as Floyd is, but much moreso offensively.

[Robbi]

Definitely, the main reason for that being Mayweather's willingness to fight off the ropes rather than off the backfoot(of which he's still not as good as Whitaker). Against a guy like Duran, who's not only the more powerful, fierce inside fighter, but the more skilled and versatile, Floyd isn't going to find many easy countering opportunities, and he's going to get tagged cleanly more than he ever has. I think he basically gets beaten up on the inside.

He would make it interesting in stints in the center of the ring, but I think Duran's craftiness even in the center of the ring(that overhand counter right is a doozy for anyone) would allow him to get to Floyd more often than not. He was so skilled at feinting that he'd cause Floyd to cover up often before getting within range and in his chest. Just a bad matchup for Floyd(and an overall better fighter), nothing to do with eras.

I think you vastly underrate Mayweather in a fight against Duran. As good as Duran was from the outside, he wasn't quite the boxer that Mayweather was within that range. If you watch Duran against De Jesus in their third meeting and later against Hagler at middleweight his jab isn't a sharp scoring type. It's simply used as a 'feeler' aka a range finder. Mayweather's jab was used as an 'out and out' point scorer even though it's not quite a ramrod like Whitaker's. Yes, Duran wouldn't particularly be looking for an outside encounter, but when he's there I see him having more problems than Mayweather. Movement especially as Mayweather would be the matador when things were at arms length.

I do fully agree that Duran balances things out better inside than Mayweather. While he was extremely powerful, fierce, and let his hands go from both sides that equated to bunches of punches, he also was very aware what was coming his way at the same time. He slipped punches well while hunting inside. Mayweather tended to exclusively think defense, for the most part, and pick chip away with single punch counters. He's certainly not going to get away with this against perhaps the best inside fighter ever.

[Robbi]

Mayweather has excellent defense, he simply lacks the offense needed to beat someone like Duran, who is just as skilled defensively in close as Floyd is, but much moreso offensively.

Agreed. De La Hoya's high guard done well blocking as he advanced. Mayweathers hooks were totally blocked as De La Hoya was looking to get off with punches centre ring.

[Robbi]

I do fully agree that Duran balances things out better inside than Mayweather. While he was extremely powerful, fierce, and let his hands go from both sides that equated to bunches of punches, he also was very aware what was coming his way at the same time. He slipped punches well while hunting inside. Mayweather tended to exclusively think defense, for the most part, and pick chip away with single punch counters. He's certainly not going to get away with this against perhaps the best inside fighter ever.

It look me a little while to do my last reply as was doing other things at the same time. But with your take on in the 'inside' comparison, it looks like we read from the same sheet.

"Mayweather has excellent defense, he simply lacks the offense needed to beat someone like Duran, who is just as skilled defensively in close as Floyd is, but much moreso offensively"

[Mantequilla]

To be honest, i think the young pre-prime Duran that fought like a swarmer against Marcel, Kobayashi and Buchanan would just run right through Mayweather, winning more or less every round.

Some of them would be competitive, some one-sided.All duran's.

The later more reserved Duran would be a closer though still comfortable winner.

[bernie4366]

Duran's best victories at lightweight:

Ray Lampkin - mediocre

Viruet - crushed in three by Rosario, who was absolutely crushed by Chavez - two DECISION losses to Duran.

Saoul Mamby - very mediocre

Estaban De Jesus - quality win, very difficult, and De Jesus is a bigger name than his record deserves just because of the Duran fights.

Then he moved up to Junior Welter. The first SRL fight was a unanimamous decision with a ONE POINT difference on two judges scorecards, two points on the third and I've watched the fight several times and I do believe SRL won it, opinions may vary. What's not debatable is that SRL humiliated, outclassed and dominated Duran in the rematch.

Duran is mainly thought of so well because of the Hagler fight. Hagler, who went life and death with elite welterweights past their prime and moving up, Hagler who went life and death with Edison Miranda type fighters over and over.

Duran would be lucky to lay a glove on Mayweather, it would be as easy for $may as the second fight was for SRL because Mayweather would never be dumb enough to slug with him in the first place. imho Castillo stops Duran, let alone JCC.

Duran is like Marciano and Lewis - fighters whose reps have been built up to ridiculous proportions waaaaaaay out of line with their actual acheivements in the ring.

[Sweet Pea]

I think you vastly underrate Mayweather in a fight against Duran. As good as Duran was from the outside, he wasn't quite the boxer that Mayweather was within that range. If you watch Duran against De Jesus in their third meeting and later against Hagler at middleweight his jab isn't a sharp scoring type. It's simply used as a 'feeler' aka a range finder. Mayweather's jab was used as an 'out and out' point scorer even though it's not quite a ramrod like Whitaker's. Yes, Duran wouldn't particularly be looking for an outside encounter, but when he's there I see him having more problems than Mayweather. Movement especially as Mayweather would be the matador when things were at arms length.

I always saw Duran's jab as more of a baiter to land his right hand. He would paw out his jab like that, awaiting the counter, and then use his beautiful overhand right to land over the top of the opponent's jab.

I said Floyd would make it interesting in the center of the ring, but Duran wouldn't be outclassed there, as it wouldn't be there often IMO.

[Robbi]

To be honest, i think the young pre-prime Duran that fought like a swarmer against Marcel, Kobayashi and Buchanan would just run right through Mayweather, winning more or less every round.

If Buchanan could take a few rounds off a young and hungry Duran then I'd almost put my life savings on Mayweather doing the same and possibly more. And please folks, don't tell me Buchanan was as versatile or defesively skilled as Mayweather, because he clearly wasn't. Buchanan's movement was his main defensive attribute. He was a pure boxer who got on his toes. Mayweather can do that, with more special effects.

[PowerPuncher]

If you'll watch the Mayweather/De La Hoya fight again, you'll also notice that A LOT of Floyd's punches didn't land cleanly, bouncing off Oscar's gloves far more often than not. I thought the punchstats were ludicrous.

Mayweather has excellent defense, he simply lacks the offense needed to beat someone like Duran, who is just as skilled defensively in close as Floyd is, but much moreso offensively.

THe punchstats weren't ludicrous, Mayweather was really outlanding Delahoya 2-1, which is mighty impressive. Mayweather did miss allot more than usual when 5'11 Delahoya went into a shell and kept a high guard, however he didnt miss anything like as much as Delahoya, you really need to watch this fight in slow mo to appreciate how Mayweather kept Delahoyas connect percent so low

Mayweather offense isn't as good as Duran's but:

1. His offense is underrated, especially 135 and below
2. He doesn't focus on offense, so his offensively qualities are underlooked
3. Because he focuses on hit and not been hit he doesn't get drawn into wars and fights on his terms

[bernie4366]

PS: I have every Duran fight on tape. As well as every SRL, Morales, Barrera, Tzsyu, Ali, Tyson - get the point?

Actually watch the fights instead of just read about them. It will open your eyes.

[PowerPuncher]

I think you vastly underrate Mayweather in a fight against Duran. As good as Duran was from the outside, he wasn't quite the boxer that Mayweather was within that range. If you watch Duran against De Jesus in their third meeting and later against Hagler at middleweight his jab isn't a sharp scoring type. It's simply used as a 'feeler' aka a range finder. Mayweather's jab was used as an 'out and out' point scorer even though it's not quite a ramrod like Whitaker's. Yes, Duran wouldn't particularly be looking for an outside encounter, but when he's there I see him having more problems than Mayweather. Movement especially as Mayweather would be the matador when things were at arms length.

I do fully agree that Duran balances things out better inside than Mayweather. While he was extremely powerful, fierce, and let his hands go from both sides that equated to bunches of punches, he also was very aware what was coming his way at the same time. He slipped punches well while hunting inside. Mayweather tended to exclusively think defense, for the most part, and pick chip away with single punch counters. He's certainly not going to get away with this against perhaps the best inside fighter ever.

I agree with your statement about Mayweather having the advantage on the outside. But I think you underrate him on the inside, he fights on the inside so much because he has an amazing inside defense, getting caught flush once in a blue moon and potent inside counters. Thats why the 100punch a round Chavez got broken down and stopped, why Hatton got ko'd, why Castillo couldn't beat him, why Delahoya couldnt use pressure effectively and so on

[Sweet Pea]

Duran's best victories at lightweight:

Ray Lampkin - mediocre

Viruet - crushed in three by Rosario, who was absolutely crushed by Chavez - two DECISION losses to Duran.

Saoul Mamby - very mediocre

Estaban De Jesus - quality win, very difficult, and De Jesus is a bigger name than his record deserves just because of the Duran fights.

You left out one of his top two biggest wins in Buchanan. You also left out the likes of Ernesto Marcel(actually fought at 130 when Duran was 18, against an excellent fighter), Guts Ishimatsu, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Lou Bizzaro, Vilomar Fernandez, Hector Thompson, etc.

You basically just chose random fight and classified them as his best. In other words, you don't have a clue about his resume.


Then he moved up to Junior Welter. The first SRL fight was a unanimamous decision with a ONE POINT difference on two judges scorecards, two points on the third and I've watched the fight several times and I do believe SRL won it, opinions may vary. What's not debatable is that SRL humiliated, outclassed and dominated Duran in the rematch.
You're the first person I've heard that's had Leonard winning, though it was very close. Either way, the LW Duran beat the WW Leonard, the harder hitting Leonard, in a brawl, so what does that say? Leonard himself was only up 2 points in the rematch, and had to resort to clowning to get Duran off his game and frustrated. There are many excuses really for that bout, none of which I like to use, though many of them may hold water.

Duran is mainly thought of so well because of the Hagler fight. Hagler, who went life and death with elite welterweights past their prime and moving up, Hagler who went life and death with Edison Miranda type fighters over and over.You're done. Stop posting.


Duran would be lucky to lay a glove on Mayweather, it would be as easy for $may as the second fight was for SRL because Mayweather would never be dumb enough to slug with him in the first place. imho Castillo stops Duran, let alone JCC.
Can we get a mod in here?


Duran is like Marciano and Lewis - fighters whose reps have been built up to ridiculous proportions waaaaaaay out of line with their actual acheivements in the ring.
Mod? Anywhere?

[Robbi]

PS: I have every Duran fight on tape. As well as every SRL, Morales, Barrera, Tzsyu, Ali, Tyson - get the point?

Actually watch the fights instead of just read about them. It will open your eyes.

Every single fight? Nah, you're talking nonsense. Many of Duran's lightweight fights are hard to get a hold of, espesically his non-title bouts. I recently viewed his non-title bout against Viruet, but it's mostly his title fights that are available, usually in poor quality and in Spanish.

[Sweet Pea]

PS: I have every Duran fight on tape. As well as every SRL, Morales, Barrera, Tzsyu, Ali, Tyson - get the point?

Actually watch the fights instead of just read about them. It will open your eyes.Alright this retard is really getting on my nerves now.

[Robbi]

You left out one of his top two biggest wins in Buchanan. You also left out the likes of Ernesto Marcel(actually fought at 130 when Duran was 18, against an excellent fighter), Guts Ishimatsu, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Lou Bizzaro, Vilomar Fernandez, Hector Thompson, etc.

Guts Ishimatsu Suzuki. He actually held the WBC crown for a couple of years. Before De Jesus won it in 1975 (I think) Infact, it may well have been De Jesus who took the title off him. I never use boxrec for dates and facts believe it or not, so not going to start cheating.

[Robbi]

Boxrec check gives me this: Suzuki won the WBC title in April 1974 against Gonzalez and lost it to De Jesus in May 1976. I was correct with the couple of years and losing it to De Jesus, but a year out with when he won it.

[bernie4366]

Kobayashi lost to Ramos and Navarro in his prime, as well as a couple other nonames, and had lost his fight previous to Duran. In fact Duran was his retirement fight so I would say he was past his prime.

Buchanan - you are correct, I should have listed that as a quality win.

Bizarro etc - no huge glory there, they weren't great fighters by ANY stretch of the imagination.

What does the first win over Leonard say? It says he could beat a boxer fighting him at his own game. What happened when Duran fought a HOF puncher in Hearns? He nearly got decapitated. What happened when SRL fought him like SRL? He quit in the middle of the round and went home.

His record DOES NOT support ATG status. HOF, sure. ATG, no fucking way. Overrated.

Now keep screaming for a mod. It's fun to slaughter sacred cows while their worshippers cry.

[Mantequilla]

If Buchanan could take a few rounds off a young and hungry Duran then I'd almost put my life savings on Mayweather doing the same and possibly more. And please folks, don't tell me Buchanan was as versatile or defesively skilled as Mayweather, because he clearly wasn't. Buchanan's movement was his main defensive attribute. He was a pure boxer who got on his toes. Mayweather can do that, with more special effects.
I don't believe Mayweather needs to be compared to Buchanan to say a young Duran would dominate him.

Buchanan was a hack anyway.

Marcel was better than him or Mayweather though.

[Sweet Pea]

Kobayashi lost to Ramos and Navarro in his prime, as well as a couple other nonames, and had lost his fight previous to Duran. In fact Duran was his retirement fight so I would say he was past his prime.Ramos and Navarro were no names? I'll have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

What does the first win over Leonard say? It says he could beat a boxer fighting him at his own game. What happened when Duran fought a HOF puncher in Hearns? He nearly got decapitated. What happened when SRL fought him like SRL? He quit in the middle of the round and went home.Normally SRL was a boxer-puncher, he stood flat-footed quite a lot. He fought his normal fight against Duran, but got pressed and outdone. In the rematch he fought a much more moving, clowning style so as not to get caught up in any exchanges with the smaller, lighter hitting LW. Duran was not at his best in this fight for a variety of reasons really. Against Hearns at 154? You're counting that against the natural LW who was facing the absolute worst stylistic matchup he could have? No LW is ever beating Hearns.


His record DOES NOT support ATG status. HOF, sure. ATG, no fucking way. Overrated.

Now keep screaming for a mod. It's fun to slaughter sacred cows while their worshippers cry.
His record as one of the best and most dominant LW champions of all time, combined with moving up in weight to beat one of the best WW's of all time and carving out a nice WW resume of his own, combined with fighting on past his prime and continuing to have success at MW, clearly shows his ATG status. You're a clown. Fuck off.

[bernie4366]

Marcel was better than Mayweather? The same Marcel that lost to the Agustin Cedeno (6-11-4 3ko) and Miguel Riasco before fighting Duran? Marcel got better after the Duran fight, but to compare him to Mayweather is a hell of a stretch.

Pretty awesome way to retire though... beat Arguello and walk off into the sunset.

[bernie4366]

Ramos and Navarro were no names? I'll have to assume you're just trolling at this point.

No, Ramos and Navarro are names. That's why I named them. The other guys were nonames.

Normally SRL was a boxer-puncher, he stood flat-footed quite a lot. He fought his normal fight against Duran, but got pressed and outdone. In the rematch he fought a much more moving, clowning style so as not to get caught up in any exchanges with the smaller, lighter hitting LW. Duran was not at his best in this fight for a variety of reasons really. Against Hearns at 154? You're counting that against the natural LW who was facing the absolute worst stylistic matchup he could have? No LW is ever beating Hearns.

No, he didn't fight his normal fight. He stood right in front of Duran and tried to burn him down, and that's not what SRL did best. He stuck and moved, not slugged. He only turned into a slugger when forced, as against Hearns. Duran wasn't at his best?? oh ok, then SRL wasn't at his best either.

His record as one of the best and most dominant LW champions of all time, combined with moving up in weight to beat one of the best WW's of all time and carving out a nice WW resume of his own, combined with fighting on past his prime and continuing to have success at MW, clearly shows his ATG status.

Exactly. It's the longevity and the moving up to pick off the inexperienced Davey Moore and the overrated Hagler that makes people swoon over him. There are plenty of lightweights with deeper resumes and better opponents.

You're a clown. Fuck off.

Ah yes.. now we see the true personality of every SRL/ODLH hater and Pryor/Duran freak. He was a bad guy and makes you think you're one by extension. Loser.

[Mantequilla]

This guy is probably just an alias.

Either that or an Ike Quartey or Felix Trinidad fan.

[Sweet Pea]

No, he didn't fight his normal fight. He stood right in front of Duran and tried to burn him down, and that's not what SRL did best. He stuck and moved, not slugged.
Watch ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) his fights with Finch, Kalule, Mayweather Sr., etc. Aside from the higher level guys who it'd have been suicide to fight that way against(Hagler, Hearns) he fought that way often, though he did use movement. He didn't stick and move other than in spots.


Duran wasn't at his best?? oh ok, then SRL wasn't at his best either.
SRL's plan for the rematch was to have it as soon as possible, as he knew about Duran's habits of gaining weight in between fights and how he'd baloon up to 200 pounds. By fight time, having put it all on and drained it all off, Duran was certainly not at his best, nor his most motivated(he never would get up for a fight like he did their first) for the rematch. Not to mention, as I said, Leonard wasn't dominating, though he was winning, mainly by virtue of pot-shotting and clowning, which infuriated Duran, especially given his state at the time. he was in no condition to deal with any of it. There are also rumors of Duran feeling sick prior to the fight. Either way, if Leonard fought to the best of his style and decided to stick and move, he'd have beaten a peak Duran by Decision IMO, but that wasn't his normal style.


Exactly. It's the longevity and the moving up to pick off the inexperienced Davey Moore and the overrated Hagler that makes people swoon over him. There are plenty of lightweights with deeper resumes and better opponents.
So now Hagler's overrated? Or just about anyone Duran beat to help your case out? Hagler was one of the top 2-3 MW's of all time. There are a few LW's with deeper resumes, but few as dominant or skilled as Duran was. Benny Leonard is the only one.


Ah yes.. now we see the true personality of every SRL/ODLH hater and Pryor/Duran freak. He was a bad guy and makes you think you're one by extension. Loser.
I like SRL, I'm just not an immature clown who throws all logic out the window. Get lost, you're not fooling anyone here.

[Robbi]

Bernie4366. If you don't rate Hagler or Duran, who do you rate?

Just a quick comparison with another fighter, so we'll use Chavez. He never done anything past 140lbs of any significance whatsoever. I think Duran going 15 rounds with Hagler at middleweight and being very competitive would be like Chavez at 32 years old doing the same with McCallum at jr middleweight. Then at the age of 37 he beats Vasquez via split decision in the same division. Can you imagine that happening? I can only imagine it, but can't see it happening. Chavez was an ATG great fighter, but not right among the top tier elites like Duran.

If you don't rate Hagler or Duran then you have extremely high expectations indeed when it comes to skills and resume.

[Robbi]

This guy is probably just an alias.

Either that or an Ike Quartey or Felix Trinidad fan.

Hes clearly making a fool of himself. He's lucky JT, Stonehands89, Manassa, etc, aren't here to make him look foolish as well.

[Bill Butcher]

Duran at LWT was without doubt 1 of the best fighters ever p4p, I personally think he beats everyone at the weight with Whitaker & Chavez giving him his toughest fights. The 1 punch power in both hands enables him to edge both by decision IMO.

I think Robinson at 147 & Pep at 126 have a slight edge over Duran at 135 but there isnt enough in it to put up a real solid arguement, its just personal opinion.

[bernie4366]

Bernie4366. If you don't rate Hagler or Duran, who do you rate?

Just a quick comparison with another fighter, so we'll use Chavez. He never done anything past 140lbs of any significance whatsoever. I think Duran going 15 rounds with Hagler at middleweight and being very competitive would be like Chavez at 32 years old doing the same with McCallum at jr middleweight. Then at the age of 37 he beats Vasquez via split decision in the same division. Can you imagine that happening? I can only imagine it, but can't see it happening. Chavez was an ATG great fighter, but not right among the top tier elites like Duran.

If you don't rate Hagler or Duran then you have extremely high expectations indeed when it comes to skills and resume.

I rate both of them, I just think they're OVERrated by the general boxing public. There are other icons that are just as overrated, most particularly Louis and Marciano. Hagler was a great MW, but I would take Monzon, Toney (if he's motivated) or Hopkins over him, maybe Burley and SRR and without a doubt or hesitation RJJ would destroy him. Hagler struggled with smaller guys moving up, REALLY struggled, and his draw with Vito was no robbery. What would happen to Hearns, SRL, Duran if they moved up to take on Hopkins? You know damn well what would happen, we saw it with both ODLH and Trinidad.

The fact that Chavez didn't have as much success moving up has nothing to do with their respective prowess in their proper weight class, and Chavez destroyed fighters that Duran would have struggled with. DESTROYED them, and I believe he would do just that to Duran.

Chavez, Whitaker, Pryor (if he has his 'mix' with him, not without it), Robinson, Armstrong, Mayweather and Arguello all whip Duran handily and I'd give ODLH and Mosley a strong shot at him as well. Even Duran's own trainer, Ray Arcel, thinks Benny Leonard was a better LW and he worked BOTH their corners.

[Sweet Pea]

I rate both of them, I just think they're OVERrated by the general boxing public. There are other icons that are just as overrated, most particularly Louis and Marciano. Hagler was a great MW, but I would take Monzon, Toney (if he's motivated) or Hopkins over him, maybe Burley and SRR and without a doubt or hesitation RJJ would destroy him. Hagler struggled with smaller guys moving up, REALLY struggled, and his draw with Vito was no robbery. What would happen to Hearns, SRL, Duran if they moved up to take on Hopkins? You know damn well what would happen, we saw it with both ODLH and Trinidad.:lol: First you take James Toney, a stationary fighter who couldn't convincingly beat McCallum and whom struggles with movers and outboxers, to beat Hagler, then you compare Oscar and Tito and Leonard, Hearns, and Duran. You HAVE to be a troll.


The fact that Chavez didn't have as much success moving up has nothing to do with their respective prowess in their proper weight class, and Chavez destroyed fighters that Duran would have struggled with. DESTROYED them, and I believe he would do just that to Duran.
Duran DESTROYED fighters that Chavez would've struggled with or lost to outright, and Chavez struggled with the likes of Lockridge and LaPorte, was getting beaten by Taylor prior to the stoppage, and had to rely on bullshit whining to get the decision over Randall in the rematch. Duran was far more versatile and overall skills than Chavez, the proof is in the footage and in both fighter's records.

You're such an unknowledgable clown it's painful to read your nonsense.


Chavez, Whitaker, Pryor (if he has his 'mix' with him, not without it), Robinson, Armstrong, Mayweather and Arguello all whip Duran handily and I'd give ODLH and Mosley a strong shot at him as well. Even Duran's own trainer, Ray Arcel, thinks Benny Leonard was a better LW and he worked BOTH their corners.
Arcel said they were the two best of all time, the fact that he rates Leonard higher means little in the grand scheme of things, considering how great Leonard was. Your other points are sheer nonsense. You simply have no clue how to rate fighters, or about boxing in general.

Please leave and stop contaminating this forum with your utter nonsense, you're nothing but a pest.

[Loewe]

Kobayashi lost to Ramos and Navarro in his prime, as well as a couple other nonames, and had lost his fight previous to Duran. In fact Duran was his retirement fight so I would say he was past his prime.

Buchanan - you are correct, I should have listed that as a quality win.

Bizarro etc - no huge glory there, they weren't great fighters by ANY stretch of the imagination.

What does the first win over Leonard say? It says he could beat a boxer fighting him at his own game. What happened when Duran fought a HOF puncher in Hearns? He nearly got decapitated. What happened when SRL fought him like SRL? He quit in the middle of the round and went home.

His record DOES NOT support ATG status. HOF, sure. ATG, no fucking way. Overrated.

Now keep screaming for a mod. It's fun to slaughter sacred cows while their worshippers cry.

If Duran isn´t an atg than PBF isn´t even a HoF. Period. There´s a difference like day and night between them. Go away, troll.

Yesterday i watched Mayweather-Corrales and Duran-Barkley. Two absolutly terrific fights and while i don´t think you can compare the Duran of the Barkley fight with the lw Duran, I can´t see Mayweather winning against Roberto. He would give him a tougher fight than many expect but he would lose. Over 12 a clear decision around 8-4 or 7-5 in rounds but would get stopped in the championship rounds over 15.

[teeto]

You left out one of his top two biggest wins in Buchanan. You also left out the likes of Ernesto Marcel(actually fought at 130 when Duran was 18, against an excellent fighter), Guts Ishimatsu, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Lou Bizzaro, Vilomar Fernandez, Hector Thompson, etc.

You basically just chose random fight and classified them as his best. In other words, you don't have a clue about his resume.

You're the first person I've heard that's had Leonard winning, though it was very close. Either way, the LW Duran beat the WW Leonard, the harder hitting Leonard, in a brawl, so what does that say? Leonard himself was only up 2 points in the rematch, and had to resort to clowning to get Duran off his game and frustrated. There are many excuses really for that bout, none of which I like to use, though many of them may hold water.

You're done. Stop posting.

Can we get a mod in here?

Mod? Anywhere?
Sweet Pea, you are to be indicted for the savage murder of bernie4366!

Class!

[teeto]

Ive obviously joined this thread late, and there's a lot i'd like to say to you know who, but Sweet Pea has done my thoughts a credit without me having to even begin to post on Bernie's antics.