Top 10 fighters Foreman beat ?

[Sonny's jab]

Not too many big names ......

1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

...... have I missed anyone ?

[mr. magoo]

No, I don't believe you've missed anyone, however you could extend the list and add, John Dino Denis, Pierre Coetzer, Jose Roman, Scott Ledoux, Crawford Grimsley, Gerry Cooney. and Lou Savarese.

[Sonny's jab]

Of course, down at the lower end of the top 10 you can have Pierre Coetzer, Scott LeDoux, Dino Dennis, Lou Savarese or Gerry Cooney or another also-ran if you prefer.

[Seamus]

It has always been my contention that George was very protected early on and by necessity chose powder puffs early in his comeback. I guess Axel Shulz may squeeze in there.

[Sonny's jab]

It has always been my contention that George was very protected early on and by necessity chose powder puffs early in his comeback. I guess Axel Shulz may squeeze in there.

Yes, Schulz probably deserves a place.

My top 6 or 7 are about right, the last 3 are interchangeable with many others.

Foreman definitely hand-picked his opponents in his comeback. Even some of the mediocre journeymen (like Mike Jameson, for example) were picked because they hadn't fought in a year or two, or were given just a couple of weeks notice. Apparently Foreman turned down a few offered to him too, and they were not world class.

His first career is more or less the same story. Lots of fodder.

[JohnThomas1]

The Cooney George fought is well above Qawi for the simple fact that he had massive power. Qawi had zero to hurt George with.

[Sonny's jab]

The Cooney George fought is well above Qawi for the simple fact that he had massive power. Qawi had zero to hurt George with.

Well, Qawi certainly did better than Cooney, IMO at least.

And I think he was more of a "live" fighter at the time. Cooney came off a 3-year retirement (after getting KO'd by Spinks) and had only fought four times since the Holmes fight 8 years earlier.

Qawi was at least active. He was however a midget blown-up light-heavy, coming in on 2 weeks notice, clearly out-of-shape and obviously well over-matched.

:lol:

It's hard to say who's better. Foreman sure knew how to pick 'em.

[mr. magoo]

Foreman definitely hand-picked his opponents in his comeback. Even some of the mediocre journeymen (like Mike Jameson, for example) were picked because they hadn't fought in a year or two, or were given just a couple of weeks notice.

True, However in the case of the Mike Jameson fight, He took that bout as a maintenance match between Cooney in January of 1990, and Adilson Rodriguez in June of the same year. He fought Jameson in March or April that Spring, and I remember hearing him say before the fight, that the Rodrigeuz bout was already signed.

That being said, of course he wasn't going to take on anybody except a journeyman type. I also saw George fight Canadian champ Ken Lakusta and big puncher Terry Anderson that same year, shortly before he signed to fight Holyfield.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It's hard to say who's better. Foreman sure knew how to pick 'em.


Pity Frazier didn't. If he did, he wouldn't have been mashed. :hey

[Sonny's jab]

.

True, However in the case of the Mike Jameson fight, He took that bout as a maintenance match between Cooney in January of 1990, and Adilson Rodriguez in June of the same year. He fought Jameson in March or April that Spring, and I remember hearing him say before the fight, that the Rodrigeuz bout was already signed.

That being said, of course he wasn't going to take on anybody except a journeyman type. I also saw George fight Canadian champ Ken Lakusta and big puncher Terry Anderson that same year, shortly before he signed to fight Holyfield.

None of them were much good. Rodrigues wasn't exactly a world-beater.

Apparently the Foreman-Anderson fight was in London. I cant remember Foreman fighting here in 1990 ! Then again, maybe there was a lot going on in boxing at the time, and I'm getting old now my memory is fading.

[mr. magoo]

None of them were much good. Rodrigues wasn't exactly a world-beater.

Apparently the Foreman-Anderson fight was in London. I cant remember Foreman fighting here in 1990 ! Then again, maybe there was a lot going on in boxing at the time, and I'm getting old now my memory is fading.

LOL. Foreman and Anderson did fight in London as I recall. George knocked him out cold, and then asked the ref if he was alright :lol:

[Street Lethal]

I thought he beat Briggs.

[Sonny's jab]

Pity Frazier didn't. If he did, he wouldn't have been mashed. :hey

Frazier picked a few easy touches when he was champ. Daniels and Stander for example.
But you cant fight tomato cans all the time.
Foreman managed two defences, then got it wrong with Ali. When you're champ there's always someone out there.

[mr. magoo]

I thought he beat Briggs.

Agreed,

If nothing else, that bout should have at least been ruled a draw. Then again, a lot of folks ( including myself ) felt he received a gift against Axel Schultz. I guess what goes around comes around.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Rodrigues was rated by the WBC. So Foreman beat one rated fighter and a 'name' then clinched a shot at the crown. No real difference to what Holmes or Tyson did. And they were young men!

[janitor]

Not too many big names ......

1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

...... have I missed anyone ?

To be fair you would have to resort to including some lesser names with other great champions like Marciano, Liston or Frazier.

[mr. magoo]

Rodrigues was rated by the WBC. So Foreman beat one rated fighter and a 'name' then clinched a shot at the crown. No real difference to what Holmes or Tyson did. And they were young men!

In all fairness, Tyson beat some pretty good fighters before recieving his first shot at Berbick's WBC title. He squared off with Marvis Frazier, Jose Ribalta, James Tillis, Mitch Green and Jesse Ferguson. None of whom were great, but they were at least decent, and a few of them might even have been rated as well.

Holmes was undefeated in 27 pro fights, and had wins over Roy Williams and Earnie Shavers. Plus, for whatever it's worth, he was a long time sparring partner for Ali and Frazier. Also, you didn't really have a whole lot of young talent in 1978, which is partially why Norton was awarded the vacant WBC.

[Nemesis]

To be fair you would have to resort to including some lesser names with other great champions like Marciano, Liston or Frazier.
or Dempsey

[janitor]

or Dempsey

Probably not with Dempsey.

You would be able to get ten names who were clearly world class. Same with Jack johnson, Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

In Dempseys case I could say-

1. Jack Sharkey
2. Billy Miske
3. Tommy Gibbons
4. Jess Willard
5. Fred Fulton
6. Luis Firpo
7. Gunboat Smith
8. Bill Brenan
9. Battling Levinsky
10. Georges Carpinter

and every one was world class at the time Dempsey beat them

[Nemesis]

Probably not with Dempsey.

You would be able to get ten names who were clearly world class. Same with Jack johnson, Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

shoot then :D

edit: you pre-empted (sp?) my request

[Nemesis]

Probably not with Dempsey.

You would be able to get ten names who were clearly world class. Same with Jack johnson, Joe Louis or Muhamad Ali.

In Dempseys case I could say-

1. Jack Sharkey
2. Billy Miske
3. Tommy Gibbons
4. Jess Willard
5. Fred Fulton
6. Luis Firpo
7. Gunboat Smith
8. Bill Brenan
9. Battling Levinsky
10. Georges Carpinter

and every one was world class at the time Dempsey beat them

fair point, it all depends on who was ranked and who wasnt at that time (ca. 20's)

certainly not as bad as Foreman's list but not on a par with Louis, Ali, Lewis or even Holmes

[janitor]

fair point, it all depends on who was ranked and who wasnt at that time (ca. 20's)

certainly not as bad as Foreman's list but not on a par with Louis, Ali, Lewis or even Holmes

Now if I do the same for Rocky Marciano I have to scrape the bottom of the barel a bit past 7.

1. Joe Walcott
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne
6. Roland LaStraza
7. Harry Kid Mattews
8. Don Cockle
9. Lee Savold
10. Johny Shkor

[mr. magoo]

I agree with Janitor.

It's very difficult to find a great champion who has faced 10 or more truly great opponents ( save of course, Muhammad Ali ). The fact that Foreman had quality wins over Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Moorer, Chuvalo, Stewart, Denis, and Savarese, Is actually enough of a legacy in my opinion.

[My dinner with Conteh]

To be fair you would have to resort to including some lesser names with other great champions like Marciano, Liston


Of course. Sonny's Jab knew that knew that. But none of those guys mashed Frazier, so they're not worth picking on. :good

[mr. magoo]

Of course. Sonny's Jab knew that knew that. But none of those guys mashed Frazier, so they're not worth picking on. :good

Exactly, and how many fighters can we list whom Frazier beat?

1. Ali
2. Elis
3. Quarry
4. Bonavena
5. Mathis
6. Foster
7. Stander
8. Zygliewitz
9. Daniels
10. Bugner

Okay, pretty good list I guess.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Exactly, and how many fighters can we list whom Frazier beat?

1. Ali
2. Elis
3. Quarry
4. Bonavena
5. Mathis
6. Foster
7. Stander
8. Zygliewitz
9. Daniels
10. Bugner

Okay, pretty good list I guess.


Well, top 4 were good anyway. Foster was obviously an ATG light heavy. But not a million miles from George's.

[janitor]

[quote=mr. magoo]Exactly, and how many fighters can we list whom Frazier beat?


To be fair you missed a few out.

1. Ali
2. Elis
3. Quarry
4. Bonavena
5. Chuvalo
6. Machen
7. Mathis
8. Jones
9. Bugner
10. Foster

[mr. magoo]

[quote]


To be fair you missed a few out.

1. Ali
2. Elis
3. Quarry
4. Bonavena
5. Chuvalo
6. Machen
7. Mathis
8. Jones
9. Bugner
10. Foster

True, Machen and Chuvalo belong on that list before Stander and Zygliewitz. I think Dick Wipperman and Manuel Ramos were Ok to.

[ironchamp]

Top 10 Fighters that Ali beat:

1. Foreman
2. Frazier 2x
3. Norton 2x
4. Liston 2x
5. Patterson 2x
6. Quarry 2x
7. Lyle
8. Shavers
9. Bonevena
10. Chuvalo

Find me a better list at HW and I'll let you lease the Holland Tunnel for a year.

Tyson's 10:

1. Holmes
2. Spinks
3. Ruddock 2x
4. Bruno 2x
5. Tucker
6. Golota
7. Thomas
8. Botha
9. Biggs
10. Berbick

Holyfield @ HW

1. Tyson 2x
2. Bowe
3. Moorer
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Mercer
7. Rahman
8. Dokes
9. Ruiz
10. Oquendo

Lewis

1. Tyson
2. Holyfield (should be 2x)
3. Bruno
4. Golota
5. Klitschko
6. Mercer
7. Morrison
8. Ruddock
9. Grant
10. Botha


Adds perspective to top ten lists.

[Sonny's jab]

Of course. Sonny's Jab knew that knew that. But none of those guys mashed Frazier, so they're not worth picking on. :good

What makes you say that ?
I made a similar thread the other day about Ali.

[janitor]

Top 10 Fighters that Ali beat:

Find me a better list at HW and I'll let you lease the Holland Tunnel for a year.



One guy who would do prety well at this ironicaly is Jack Sharkey.

His best 10 would beat those of some all time greats.

1. Max Schmeling
2. Harry Wills
3. Primo Carnera
4. George Godfrey
5. Tommy Loughran
6. Young Stribling
7. Johny Risko
8. Jack Renault
9. Jack Delaney
10. Mike McTigure

No fat on that top 10 if you look at the era.

[Action]

Foreman changed the direction of Boone Kirkman's career. Managed by the legendary Jack Hurley Kirkman's only loss up to meeting Big George was by a cut to Doug Jones which he avenged by stopping Jones when they met later.
Kirkman was a ranked contender and a huge draw in Seattle in the late 60's and early 70's regularly filling the Coliseum with over 10.000 seats.
Foreman blew through Boone in two rounds knocking him down several times until referee Arthur Mercante stopped it. Kirkman who was lobbying for a world title fight in his hometown at the time never regained his stature again. Though he did beat Jimmy Ellis to raise the pulse rate he fought and got stopped by both Ken Norton and Ron Lyle all in Seattle.

[OLD FOGEY]

Now if I do the same for Rocky Marciano I have to scrape the bottom of the barel a bit past 7.

1. Joe Walcott
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne
6. Roland LaStraza
7. Harry Kid Mattews
8. Don Cockle
9. Lee Savold
10. Johny Shkor

I don't know if I would call Cockell, the #2 contender and British Empire champion, the bottom of the barrel. Savold was sort of a poor man's Jack Sharkey--at first glance his record is umimpressive, but he fought almost everyone and logged a surprising number of good wins over the years. He was growing gray at the snout but had only lost in recent years to Louis.
I wouldn't consider Savold near the bottom of the barrel.

Bernie Reynolds should probably be the tenth man. He beat Shkor, was rated as high as #6, and came into the Marciano fight off a comeback knockout of future contender James J Parker.

[OLD FOGEY]

Exactly, and how many fighters can we list whom Frazier beat?

1. Ali
2. Elis
3. Quarry
4. Bonavena
5. Mathis
6. Foster
7. Stander
8. Zygliewitz
9. Daniels
10. Bugner

Okay, pretty good list I guess.

Chuvalo, Machen,and Jones should replace Stander, Zyglewizc, and Daniels.
Sorry--I see this recommendation has already been made and carried out.

[OLD FOGEY]

Liston's top ten:
1. Patterson
2. Machen
3. Folley
4. Williams
5. Valdes
6. Harris
7. Bethea
8. DeJohn
9. Clark
10. Summerlin

[OLD FOGEY]

Jeffries top ten:
1. Fitzsimmons
2. Corbett
3. Jackson
4. Sharkey
5. Ruhlin
6. Armstrong
7. Goddard
8. Munroe
9. Griffin
10. Everett

[OLD FOGEY]

Johnson's top ten:
1. Jeffries
2. Langford
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Jeannette
5. McVea
6. Burns
7. Moran
8. Ketchel
9. Denver Ed Martin
10. Tom Cowler

[OLD FOGEY]

Harry Wills top ten:
1. Langford
2. McVea
3. Jeannette
4. Fulton
5. Jeff Clarke
6. Firpo
7. Kid Norfolk
8. Gunboat Smith
9. Charley Weinert
10. Tut Jackson

[MrSmall]

Damn!
when you have Oquendo by tight decision in your top ten wins, you know something's up.

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY]I don't know if I would call Cockell, the #2 contender and British Empire champion, the bottom of the barrel.

While I apreciate that Cockle was the No2 contender when Marciano met him I think he was verry lucky to be.

He got that ranking largley by virtue of being the only big name who did not fight Archie Moore.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]

While I apreciate that Cockle was the No2 contender when Marciano met him I think he was verry lucky to be.

He got that ranking largley by virtue of being the only big name who did not fight Archie Moore.

Well, his overall record was 66-14-1 with 38 knockouts--not bad.

He was on a ten bout winning streak during which he had defeated three top five fighters, Harry Matthews, Roland LaStarza, and Johnny Williams.

Over the course of his career, he defeated nine men who were top ten by Ring Magazine at one time or another, Matthews, LaStarza, Williams, Tommy Farr, Lloyd Marshall, Nick Barone, Freddie Beshore, Albert Finch and Ginger Sadd, as well as a whole slew to top Euro fighters, Albert Yvel, Bert Gilroy, Mark Hart, Renato Tentoni, Johnny Arthur, etc

Cockell is somewhat underrated because of his doughboy appearance, but he was a decent boxer and his record is better than that of let's say, Bill Brennan, who, other than Battling Levinsky, never beat any first-tier fighters, and Levinsky was a lightheavy. Cockell has the deeper resume. And I would also rank him above Tony Galento, He was no great shucks, obviously, but not quite the nothing you see him as.

Quite a few contenders through history would have lost to Moore. I don't see the point. Which of Dempsey's defenses would you favor over Moore? I would say none prior to Tunney. Which of Louis's? I would say not many. Perhaps Schmeling. Perhaps Walcott. Conn is something like fifty/fifty.

[janitor]

Cockell is somewhat underrated because of his doughboy appearance, but he was a decent boxer and his record is better than that of let's say, Bill Brennan, who, other than Battling Levinsky, never beat any first-tier fighters, and Levinsky was a lightheavy. Cockell has the deeper resume. And I would also rank him about Tony Galento, He was no great shucks, obviously, but not quite the nothing you see him as.


I am not saying that Cockle was a bum or that he was no good but I do think that he rather rode up the rankings on Archie Moores coat taills.

Moore was on a bit of a rampage at the time and eliminated a lot of the more dangerous oponents that Cockle would have otherwise had to go through to get a title shot like Valdez and Baker.

[OLD FOGEY]

I am not saying that Cockle was a bum or that he was no good but I do think that he rather rode up the rankings on Archie Moores coat taills.

Moore was on a bit of a rampage at the time and eliminated a lot of the more dangerous oponents that Cockle would have otherwise had to go through to get a title shot like Valdez and Baker.

The other top contenders lost to other men besides Moore, though. Cockell was 20-2 from Feb 1950 when he lost to heavy Aaron Wilson while a lightheavy through 1954. He was undefeated since the Turpin fight in 1952,
further back than any of the other contenders could claim. Not counting their defeats by Moore, Valdes from 1950 to 1954 was 18-3-1, Baker 26-4-1, Henry 24-4, and Satterfield 15-8. Satterfield lost to Moore in 1949.

I agree that Cockell would almost certainly have lost to Moore also.

[Mendoza]

Not too many big names ......

1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman

...... have I missed anyone ?

I think did a fine job with Big George’s top ten wins. For my money A. Rodrigues' record was full of fluff, and should not rate among Foreman’s best 10 wins. I would replace Rodriguez with Cooney.

[Lex]

I thought he beat Briggs.

He did beat Briggs. Foreman just didn't get the decision. :verysad

Gregorio Peralto was the fellow who showed up Foreman's weakness early on. Slick defensive boxers who kept moving gave George fits. And Peralta was mostly a pesky fighter, not particularly great in any aspect. Jimmy Young exploited Big George's vulnerability at least as well as did Ali, maybe better considering Young reportedly had trouble breaking eggs to make an omelet.

[janitor]

The other top contenders lost to other men besides Moore, though. Cockell was 20-2 from Feb 1950 when he lost to heavy Aaron Wilson while a lightheavy through 1954. He was undefeated since the Turpin fight in 1952,
further back than any of the other contenders could claim. Not counting their defeats by Moore, Valdes from 1950 to 1954 was 18-3-1, Baker 26-4-1, Henry 24-4, and Satterfield 15-8. Satterfield lost to Moore in 1949.

I agree that Cockell would almost certainly have lost to Moore also.

The next logical question is do you see Cockle beating, Valdez, Baker or Satterfield or being more consisten than them against the opposition they were fighting at the time?

If you do not think he would then you could logicaly conclude that he was able to exploit Archie Moores rampage in the heavyweight division to get up to the No2 spot.

[ChrisPontius]

Well, his overall record was 66-14-1 with 38 knockouts--not bad.

He was on a ten bout winning streak during which he had defeated three top five fighters, Harry Matthews, Roland LaStarza, and Johnny Williams.

Over the course of his career, he defeated nine men who were top ten by Ring Magazine at one time or another, Matthews, LaStarza, Williams, Tommy Farr, Lloyd Marshall, Nick Barone, Freddie Beshore, Albert Finch and Ginger Sadd, as well as a whole slew to top Euro fighters, Albert Yvel, Bert Gilroy, Mark Hart, Renato Tentoni, Johnny Arthur, etc

Cockell is somewhat underrated because of his doughboy appearance, but he was a decent boxer and his record is better than that of let's say, Bill Brennan, who, other than Battling Levinsky, never beat any first-tier fighters, and Levinsky was a lightheavy. Cockell has the deeper resume. And I would also rank him about Tony Galento, He was no great shucks, obviously, but not quite the nothing you see him as.

Quite a few contenders through history would have lost to Moore. I don't see the point. Which of Dempsey's defenses would you favor over Moore? I would say none prior to Tunney. Which of Louis's? I would say not many. Perhaps Schmeling. Perhaps Walcott. Conn is something like fifty/fifty.

Good post. :good

Cockell was nothing special but a deserving contender nonetheless.
You make a good point about Brennan.

I think it's the fact that all of Marciano's title defenses were against hall of famers (Walcott 2x, Charles 2x, Moore) except for Cockell, makes him being thought of as a soft touch. Which he was compared to the other names, but he was still the #2 contender with legit wins. Not a Leroy Jones or a Lucian Rodriguez with 10 fights.

[Mendoza]

Lex He did beat Briggs. Foreman just didn't get the decision. :verysad


True. But Foreman got some decsions he did not deserve. The Stewart and Saveresse fights come to mind.

[OLD FOGEY]

The next logical question is do you see Cockle beating, Valdez, Baker or Satterfield or being more consisten than them against the opposition they were fighting at the time?

If you do not think he would then you could logicaly conclude that he was able to exploit Archie Moores rampage in the heavyweight division to get up to the No2 spot.

Baker dropped in the ratings behind Cockell, and in fact out of the ratings completely, because of losses to Gilliam, Satterfield, and Henry. The loss to Moore came later.

Satterfield's loss to Moore in 1949 probably did not impact his being rated behind Cockell. He fell in the ratings because of eight losses in the fifties.

Valdes was rated ahead of Cockell in spite of his loss to Moore.

I don't see that Moore's success actually effected Cockell's rating that much. Cockell climbed in the ratings because he won more consistently than the other contenders except for Moore.

As to how Cockell would have done against the other contenders or thier opposition, that is asking for quite a bit of speculation. I think Cockell would be even or better against the very inconsistent Satterfield, who badly defeated Valdes and Baker. I would favor Baker, but would expect a close, tactical fight. Valdes did defeat Cockell, who was much fatter than usual and may have been looking past the fight toward his retirement. Cockell would never win another fight.
As to the opposition, I would guess about the same, but I don't think Satterfield, at least, would be likely to match Cockell's 20-2 record after 1950. He was just too in and out.

[janitor]

Baker dropped in the ratings behind Cockell, and in fact out of the ratings completely, because of losses to Gilliam, Satterfield, and Henry. The loss to Moore came later.

Satterfield's loss to Moore in 1949 probably did not impact his being rated behind Cockell. He fell in the ratings because of eight losses in the fifties.

Valdes was rated ahead of Cockell in spite of his loss to Moore.

I don't see that Moore's success actually effected Cockell's rating that much. Cockell climbed in the ratings because he won more consistently than the other contenders except for Moore.

As to how Cockell would have done against the other contenders or thier opposition, that is asking for quite a bit of speculation. I think Cockell would be even or better against the very inconsistent Satterfield, who badly defeated Valdes and Baker. I would favor Baker, but would expect a close, tactical fight. Valdes did defeat Cockell, who was much fatter than usual and may have been looking past the fight toward his retirement. Cockell would never win another fight.
As to the opposition, I would guess about the same, but I don't think Satterfield, at least, would be likely to match Cockell's 20-2 record after 1950. He was just too in and out.

You seem to have dismised a large part of my thesis but I retain doubts.

For example looking at the rankings for that year and the previous one Cockle seems to have climbed to number two without actualy engaging other ranked contenders while those he is rated ahead of seem to have fallen behind him in large part due to losses to other ranked contenders.

1954 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Dan Bucceroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Roland LaStarza ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Clarence Henry ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Harrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Satterfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Coley Wallace ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1955 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Baker ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Heinz Neuhaus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Rex Layne ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Norkus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jimmy Slade ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Red = Cockle beat this man

Yellow = Charles beat this man

Green = Valdez beat this man


Blue = Baker beat this man

My impresion is a higher level of interaction among the other top contenders which might have worked to his advantage.

[Bummy Davis]

Well, Qawi certainly did better than Cooney, IMO at least.

And I think he was more of a "live" fighter at the time. Cooney came off a 3-year retirement (after getting KO'd by Spinks) and had only fought four times since the Holmes fight 8 years earlier.

Qawi was at least active. He was however a midget blown-up light-heavy, coming in on 2 weeks notice, clearly out-of-shape and obviously well over-matched.

:lol:

It's hard to say who's better. Foreman sure knew how to pick 'em.

Foreman got in the best shape and lowest weight of his comeback for that fight and if I remember correctly gave Big George fits, the 5"7 fat Quawi hit George a lot and held up well before he tired

[OLD FOGEY]

You seem to have dismised a large part of my thesis but I retain doubts.

For example looking at the rankings for that year and the previous one Cockle seems to have climbed to number two without actualy engaging other ranked contenders while those he is rated ahead of seem to have fallen behind him in large part due to losses to other ranked contenders.

1954 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Dan Bucceroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Roland LaStarza ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Clarence Henry ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Harrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Satterfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Coley Wallace ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1955 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Baker ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Heinz Neuhaus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Rex Layne ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Norkus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jimmy Slade ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Red = Cockle beat this man

Yellow = Charles beat this man

Green = Valdez beat this man


Blue = Baker beat this man

My impresion is a higher level of interaction among the other top contenders which might have worked to his advantage.


1952 Ratings-Ratings of Jan 1, 1953
Champion--Rocky Marciano
1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Rex Layne
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Dunlop
5. Clarence Henry
6. Johnny Williams*
7. Roland LaStarza*
8. Heinz Neuhaus
9. Karol Sys
10. Jimmy Bivins
Cockell defeated the #6 man, Williams, as well as LaStarza.

Ring ratings for the May, 1952 Issue of Ring--ratings for period ending
March 18, 1952:
Champion--Jersey Joe Walcott
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Roland LaStarza*
4. Clarence Henry
5. Johnny Williams*
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Coley Wallace
8. Bob Dunlop
9. Cesar Brion
10. Bob Baker
Cockell defeated the #3 and #5 contenders

Ring ratings for the August 1952 issue of the Ring-for period ending
June 18, 1952
Champion--Jersey Joe Walcott
1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Roland LaStarza*
4. Coley Wallace
5. Clarence Henry
6. Harry Matthews*
7. Johnny Williams*
8. Bob Dunlop
9. Cesar Brion
10. Jimmy Bivins
Cockell defeated the #3, #6, & #7 rated fighters.

Ring ratings for the October 1953 issue for the period ending August 18, 1953
Champion--Rocky Marciano
1. Roland LaStarza*
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Nino Valdes
5. Tommy Harrison
6. Bob Satterfield
7. Heinz Neuhaus
8. Don Cockell
9. Earl Walls
10. Harry Matthews*
Cockell defeated the #1 and #10 contenders

I will comment on a separate post.

[janitor]

1952 Ratings-Ratings of Jan 1, 1953
Champion--Rocky Marciano
1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Rex Layne
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Dunlop
5. Clarence Henry
6. Johnny Williams*
7. Roland LaStarza*
8. Heinz Neuhaus
9. Karol Sys
10. Jimmy Bivins
Cockell defeated the #6 man, Williams, as well as LaStarza.

Ring ratings for the May, 1952 Issue of Ring--ratings for period ending
March 18, 1952:
Champion--Jersey Joe Walcott
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Roland LaStarza*
4. Clarence Henry
5. Johnny Williams*
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Coley Wallace
8. Bob Dunlop
9. Cesar Brion
10. Bob Baker
Cockell defeated the #3 and #5 contenders

Ring ratings for the August 1952 issue of the Ring-for period ending
June 18, 1952
Champion--Jersey Joe Walcott
1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Roland LaStarza*
4. Coley Wallace
5. Clarence Henry
6. Harry Matthews*
7. Johnny Williams*
8. Bob Dunlop
9. Cesar Brion
10. Jimmy Bivins
Cockell defeated the #3, #6, & #7 rated fighters.

Ring ratings for the October 1953 issue for the period ending August 18, 1953
Champion--Rocky Marciano
1. Roland LaStarza*
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Nino Valdes
5. Tommy Harrison
6. Bob Satterfield
7. Heinz Neuhaus
8. Don Cockell
9. Earl Walls
10. Harry Matthews*
Cockell defeated the #1 and #10 contenders

I will comment on a separate post.

On closer inspection his ranking apears to be justified.

[OLD FOGEY]

You seem to have dismised a large part of my thesis but I retain doubts.

For example looking at the rankings for that year and the previous one Cockle seems to have climbed to number two without actualy engaging other ranked contenders while those he is rated ahead of seem to have fallen behind him in large part due to losses to other ranked contenders.

1954 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Dan Bucceroni ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Roland LaStarza ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Clarence Henry ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Harrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Satterfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Coley Wallace ([Only registered and activated users can see links])1955 Rocky Marciano ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Champion

Nino Valdes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Don Cockell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ezzard Charles ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Bob Baker ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Earl Walls ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Heinz Neuhaus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Rex Layne ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Charley Norkus ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Jimmy Slade ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Red = Cockle beat this man

Yellow = Charles beat this man

Green = Valdez beat this man


Blue = Baker beat this man

My impresion is a higher level of interaction among the other top contenders which might have worked to his advantage.


By using only the 1953 and 1954 ratings, you excluded Johnny Williams,
who was #6 in the 1952 ratings, and had reached as high as #5.
Harry Matthews was generally and perhaps stubbornly rated in the lightheavy class by the Ring even after he outgrew the division (If he could have made the lightheavy limit after the Marciano fight, I think he would have). Matthews in 1952 was rated as highly as #6 in the heavy ranks by Ring, and as high as #2 by the NBA on the eve of his bout with Marciano. He was the Ring's #8 ranked heavyweight when he fought Cockell the first time. Of course, he was a top three lightheavy from 1950 to 1952, ranked #1 contender over Moore and Johnson in 1951 and selected by the staff of the Ring as the best p4p fighter in the world for 1951, replacing Sugar Ray Robinson.

Williams and Matthews were still ranked heavyweights when Cockell defeated them in 1953, LaStarza when Cockell defeated him in 1954.

Cockell had also defeated Nick Barone, ranked #5 at lightheavy in 1950 and who fought Charles for the heavyweight title, and Freddie Beshore, a fringe contender in 1950 who Cockell defeated in 1951. There were also the old men, Farr and Marshall.

Charles had clearly beaten more good men but he was always rated ahead of Cockell until his second loss to Marciano.

Valdes was rated ahead of Cockell, so I don't see the issue with him.

Baker dropped completely out of the ratings in 1953, Satterfield in 1954.

Cockell defeated six men, heavies LaStarza, Williams, Farr and Matthews, as well as lightheavies Marshall and Barone (plus Matthews if you want to count him here) who were ranked in the top five of their division at one time or another. Farr and Marshall were slipping, of course.

[OLD FOGEY]

On closer inspection his ranking apears to be justified.

Okay. Sorry, but I posted my comments before I read this.

[brownpimp88]

Tim Witherspoon's top 10:

1. greg page
2. frank bruno
3. bonecrusher smith
4. tony tubbs
5. carl williams
6. jorge luis gonzales
7. alfred cole
8. james tillis
9. jose ribalta
10. renaldo snipes

Mike Tyson's top 10

1. holmes
2. spinks
3. ruddock
4. tucker
5. berbick
6. tubbs
7. bonecrusher
8. pinklon
9. bruno
10. seldon

Larry Holmes top 10

1. Ali
2. Norton
3. Witherspoon
4. Weaver
5. Berbick
6. Shavers
7. Cooney
8. Mercer
9. Bonecrusher
10. leon spinks or carl williams