Joe Calzaghe would be more likely to beat Samuel Peter than Sugar Ray Robinson

[McGrain]

What do you think?

[Thread Stealer]

Joe Calzaghe would be more likely to be willing to fight Glen Johnson and then fight Sven Ottke in his hometown than beat either of those 2 guys.

[McGrain]

Joe Calzaghe would be more likely to be willing to fight Glen Johnson and then fight Sven Ottke in his hometown than beat either of those 2 guys.


There is certainly no denying that.

Hypothetically though.

[yesihavearm]

Hard to say.

Calzaghe would certainly have a chance against SRR if the fight was at 168.

Against Peter at Heavy, it would depend on how much speed Calzaghe would lose by putting on the extra weight.

[China_hand_Joe]

You just have to look at SRRs record at 160 to see Calzaghe should be heavily, heavily favored -fullstop-

[cross_trainer]

You just have to look at SRRs record at 160 to see Calzaghe should be heavily, heavily favored -fullstop-
Robinson's record of winning the linear middleweight championship and fighting the top-ranked contenders in that division should be a dead giveaway that Calzaghe (who has done neither) clobbers him?

[McGrain]

Basically Calzaghe has fought no-one of note and SRR has a string of ATG's under his belt (though he too ducked (or failed to fight if you prefer) many great fighters) - but what about the step up? I'd enivisage Cal doing it at about 180.

[McGrain]

You just have to look at SRRs record at 160 to see Calzaghe should be heavily, heavily favored.

SRR's record at middle contains some ATG's and some really good fighters. Cal's record at 168 contains none of the former and some of the later.

If it's records you're discussing it's no contest.

[China_hand_Joe]

Robinson's record of winning the linear middleweight championship and fighting the top-ranked contenders in that division should be a dead giveaway that Calzaghe (who has done neither) clobbers him?If only the loses hadn't happened -fullstop- It takes more than the greatest WW of all time to beat a legendary SMW at SMW -fullstop- It is especially ridiculous to argue otherwise since Calzaghe is a larger framed 168-er too -fullstop-

[FlatNose]

Please.Robinson would have embalmed Calzaghe.Peter, on the other hand, had hells own time with a bloated, obese, past his prime, should-be middleweight James Toney.Joe might have a chance against the mediocre Nigerian.

[cross_trainer]

If only the loses hadn't happened -fullstop- It takes more than the greatest WW of all time to beat a legendary SMW at SMW -fullstop-
By that rationalle, Marciano beats Lewis because he never lost a fight.


It is especially ridiculous to argue otherwise since Calzaghe is a larger framed 168-er too -fullstop-
Robinson was also one of the greatest middleweights of all time, and has a vastly better record at middleweight than Calzaghe does at supermiddleweight. It's not really a stretch to say that a top 5 middleweight can beat an unexceptional supermiddleweight records-wise. ;)

[McGrain]

I don't believe he ducked anyone, just look @ his record, he'#s got many losses on his record.

I honestly believe fighters like Robinson + Louis (Not Ali before anyone mentions him) genuinely fought any and everyone they could providing the cash was there because they fought with pride, for a purpose, the make a point and stand on their own two feet in a persecuted world. .

I wish I could agree, but I can't. He ducked Burley for sure, but he also failed to fight Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase...he also missed out on Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles.

[China_hand_Joe]

By that rationalle, Marciano beats Lewis because he never lost a fight.


Robinson was also one of the greatest middleweights of all time, and has a vastly better record at middleweight than Calzaghe does at supermiddleweight. It's not really a stretch to say that a top 5 middleweight can beat an unexceptional supermiddleweight records-wise. ;)There is absolutely nothing the record or the video evidence of SRR to suggest he stands a chance against Joe Calzaghe, his only hope is that Calzaghe breaks both his hands -fullstop- Cazlaghe footage shows a strong, fast, skilled fighter who isn't going to lose to a Welterweight (Robinsons optimum weight), no matter how good that Welterweight is -fullstop- And we all know Calzaghe is exceptional and better than any opponent Robinson ever faced P4P -fullstop-

[yesihavearm]

Please.Robinson would have embalmed Calzaghe.Peter, on the other hand, had hells own time with a bloated, obese, past his prime, should-be middleweight James Toney.Joe might have a chance against the mediocre Nigerian.
Im not gonna argue with that, I havent seen that much of SRR in all honesty and its hard to argue against the best fighter of all time. At 168 though SRR might not be as awsome as everyone thinks, especially against Joe who's the number 2 SMW in history imo and will most likely end his career as Number1. SRR is really a Welterweight and to be honest I dont see a Welterweight beating one of the best SMW's ever and a big SMW at that. Joe could easily move to light-heavy no problems at all.

Again I think its down to speed if he moved up to fight Peter. If Joe went into the fight at around 180-185 and managed to retain 70-80% of his handspeed and movement he'd have a chance of moving into the inside with his quick flurries and then moving back out before Peter has a chance to land anything of significance to eventually win a sort of 116 or 117 UD.

[McGrain]

There is absolutely nothing the record

Well his record shows him beating many good MW's, which is a start.


or the video evidence of SRR to suggest he stands a chance against Joe Calzaghe

Silly thing to say. SRR shows himself to be a puncher at MW with very quick hands, feet, every punch in the book.



Cazlaghe footage shows a strong, fast,

Slower in both hand and foot than Sugar though.


skilled fighter

Less skilled than Sugar.


who isn't going to lose to a Welterweight (Robinsons optimum weight), no matter how good that Welterweight is -fullstop-

I'm pretty sure you know that Sugar fought at middle. He'd probably be weighing 163 for a Calzaghe fight, if you're interested.

[McGrain]

against Joe who's the number 2 SMW in history imo and will most likely end his career as Number1.


Who do you have at one currently?


Again I think its down to speed if he moved up to fight Peter. If Joe went into the fight at around 180-185 and managed to retain 70-80% of his handspeed and movement he'd have a chance of moving into the inside with his quick flurries and then moving back out before Peter has a chance to land anything of significance to eventually win a sort of 116 or 117 UD.

I think movement would be the thing - add workrate in the early rounds.

[China_hand_Joe]

By that rationalle, Marciano beats Lewis because he never lost a fight.


Robinson was also one of the greatest middleweights of all time, and has a vastly better record at middleweight than Calzaghe does at supermiddleweight. It's not really a stretch to say that a top 5 middleweight can beat an unexceptional supermiddleweight records-wise. ;)Do you favor Calzaghe over Robinson at 168 -questionmark-

[RagingBull]

Calzaghe would obviously get owned by both SRR and Peters. Peters would knock him out within 60 secs where SRR would probably UD him. This is a stupid hypothetical though because SRR is regarded by most as the best p4p of all time. Peters on the other hand is the heaviest puncher in the heavyweight division out weighing Calzaghe by app. 70 pounds.

[McGrain]

This is a stupid hypothetical though because SRR is regarded by most as the best p4p of all time. Peters on the other hand is the heaviest puncher in the heavyweight division out weighing Calzaghe by app. 70 pounds.

Being the best p4p doesn't neccesarily make a fighter a def to beat a heavier fighter, obviously.

History is full of examples of very talented men stepping up to beat heavier men.

[cross_trainer]

There is absolutely nothing the record or the video evidence of SRR to suggest he stands a chance against Joe Calzaghe, his only hope is that Calzaghe breaks both his hands -fullstop- Cazlaghe footage shows a strong, fast, skilled fighter who isn't going to lose to a Welterweight (Robinsons optimum weight), no matter how good that Welterweight is -fullstop- And we all know Calzaghe is exceptional and better than any opponent Robinson ever faced P4P -fullstop-

Again, though, you're missing what I said. Robinson is also a top 5 MIDDLEWEIGHT in addition to being a top 2 welterweight. He carried enough pop at MIDDLEWEIGHT to wipe out the top contenders in that division.

Video evidence is clearly subjective--you see a crude caveman, most do not. But going on records? No contest here. Calzaghe faced barely any of the best supermiddleweights in his division, whereas Robinson faced and beat most of the best middleweights.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe has faced best SMWs of his time though, just not Ottke, which would have been an inevitable Calzaghe win anyhow -fullstop-

[Decebal]

Calzaghe has faced best SMWs of his time though, just not Ottke, which would have been an inevitable Calzaghe win anyhow -fullstop-

clear your inbox please, mate.

[yesihavearm]

I think what China_Hand_Joe is trying to say guys is that Calzaghe is probably the best SMW of all time, which is probably enough to see him through. SRR would clearly not be at his best at SMW where as Joe is clearly at his best at SMW.

Something like that.

[LeedsLad]

Answer the thread name, i dont think either could beat Samuel Peter at Heavyweight:lol:

[McGrain]

Answer the thread name, i dont think either could beat Samuel Peter at Heavyweight:lol:

What is it about Peter particularly that makes him invulnerable to world class boxing, do you think?

[LeedsLad]

What is it about Peter particularly that makes him invulnerable to world class boxing, do you think?

Dont get wrong, Peter is a mediocure fighter at best. But i cant see either of them being effective at 200lbs. They both easily have the skill, if they could keep their speed in-particular.

[McGrain]

Dont get wrong, Peter is a mediocure fighter at best. But i cant see either of them being effective at 200lbs. They both easily have the skill, if they could keep their speed in-particular.

Say Cal could go into a Peter fight at 185...what do you think then?

[LeedsLad]

Say Cal could go into a Peter fight at 185...what do you think then?

It has been documented for years how Calzaghe has to make alot of effort to make 168lbs, i imagine 185lbs would be close to a natural, comfortable weight for him. If this fight happened at that catchweight id take Calzaghe by a quite comfortable UD, he would outbox Peter with out a great deal of trouble along the way.

[cross_trainer]

What is it about Peter particularly that makes him invulnerable to world class boxing, do you think?

Massive size, strength, and power advantages.

[McGrain]

Massive size, strength, and power advantages.


Ruiz - Jones?

Turner - Burley?

I bet you can think of plenty more...

[cross_trainer]

Ruiz - Jones?

Turner - Burley?

I bet you can think of plenty more...

Ruiz was not the puncher that Peter is, or is he quite as massive. I would give Peter a far better chance than Ruiz against Jones as well. The fact that Calzaghe's punches have little force on them would compound the issue.

[McGrain]

Ruiz was not the puncher that Peter is, or is he quite as massive. I would give Peter a far better chance than Ruiz against Jones as well. The fact that Calzaghe's punches have little force on them would compound the issue.

Calzaghe holds back a little on his punches to avoid risking a broken hand when he feels he is on top. Against Peter, he would have to comit to punches 100%. I think what is most likely is that he would break his hands and be stopped, but if he didn't, I think he would have enough pep in his shots to keep Peter of. Not that Peter catching him would neccesarily be a problem...

Perhaps you are right about Peter having a better chance v the version of Jones that Ruiz fought.

[cross_trainer]

The losses were for a very big part past his prime. 15 of the 19 cane after he was past 35 years of age.

Calzaghe is also currently past 35 years of age. Of course, he didn't have the kind of wars that SRR did, either.

[cross_trainer]

True, he didn't fight as much in his whole career as SRR did when he was past 35 years of age. :deal
Somewhat sad, isn't it? Even though technical boxing may have advanced slightly since SRR's time, and definitely advanced since Greb, the sheer experience difference between the old and new fighters is often staggering.

[McGrain]

True, he didn't fight as much in his whole career as SRR did when he was past 35 years of age. :deal

Is that really true?

[McGrain]

Somewhat sad, isn't it?


Yeah, although he should have fought better fighters rather than more fighters.

[McGrain]

Are you in any way insinuating that SRR didn't face better fighters than Calzaghe.


:lol:

No.

The "he" is Calzaghe. I'm happy with the numbers, just unhappy with the quality.

[China_hand_Joe]

Are you in any way insinuating that SRR didn't face better fighters than Calzaghe?

When he was in his latter days was really when he was facing a lot of his top competition, such as Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.Basilio made his name against Robinson and nobody else in all seriousness, you can list other names on his resume but they are just guys that lost to the guy who gave Robinson a little trouble - fullstop- Byron Mitchell probably KOs Bastilo in the 4th -fullstop-

[China_hand_Joe]

Are you in any way insinuating that SRR didn't face better fighters than Calzaghe?

Robinson did not face one opponent who could even trouble Calzaghe, not even on a P4P basis -fullstop-

[McGrain]

Robinson did not face one opponent who could even trouble Calzaghe, not even on a P4P basis -fullstop-


This is actually the stupidist thing you have ever said.

Impressive.

Calzaghe has failed to fight even one ATG. He's somehow missed out on Johnson, Jones, Hopkins, Ottke, Woods, Toney, if you wanted to infer that Calzaghe was protected or a coward it would not be difficult.

[China_hand_Joe]

This is actually the stupidist thing you have ever said.

Impressive.

Calzaghe has failed to fight even one ATG. He's somehow missed out on Johnson, Jones, Hopkins, Ottke, Woods, Toney, if you wanted to infer that Calzaghe was protected or a coward it would not be difficult.A skilled coward is still skilled -fullstop-

[enquirer]

Calzaghe beats robbie at 168 and is knocked out or heavily outpointed by peter. Robbie or joe have no chance versus peter,especially robby...
I dont see why you classic guys are overlooking calzaghe,he is better at 168 than robbie,especially when you consider todays 168 is like the 175 of yesterday with the day before weigh ins...Not many fighters retain their skills/power/effectiveness at three original divisions (of the original eight i mean.) And welter to middle to supermiddle/lt heavy is too much for robbie,especially againt one of the atgs at the weight....Maybe calzaghe doesnt have the best resume,but neither does jones at lt heavy or nard at middle. Yet with some fighters it the actual FOOTAGE and the style that makes them great,sometimes its not the fighters fault they couldnt secure the great matches....Nard,jones and PBF also havent fought all the best guys available to fight,neither did robbie.....
Purely on styles,weight and footage calzaghe is better at todays 168 than robbie...