Liston vs Louis

[OBCboxer]

What a suprise. Another prime for prime matchup involving Liston.

Of course they are both in their primes but who would win?

[Quickhands21]

I cant see Louis lasting lon honestly..Liston by very early ko

[mr. magoo]

Difficult matchup to determine from a stylistic standpoint. On one hand, Liston destroyed nearly every man who dared to trade with him, but on the other, he never met a puncher who was even remotely in Louis's league. Then again, Louis was dropped in his prime, on a few occasions by men who's abilities can't be compared to those of the devastating Liston, but also destroyed some real monsters in Buddy Baer, Max Baer, primo Carnera, and Abe Simon.

Here is how I might be inclined to imagine things unfolding. Liston drops Louis early, perhaps more than once. Louis ( never a quitter ), rises to his feet, and takes a bit more punishment. By the third or fourth round, it appears to be over, when Joe finds an opening and unloads with his signature combos to the body and head. Sonny is still dangerous and determined to crush the bomber, but is starting to get both worried and frustrated. Liston did not like adversity, nor fighters who could stand up to him. Louis continues to come in, and land fast combinations sporatically where he can. Sonny is starting to bleed and swell. Liston comes out for the 6th round and takes one last stab at Louis, landing with his awesome jab and right hand. Joe is badly hurt, but still persues him. In the 7th round, Joey Blackburn tells his man that he needs to end it now, or there may be no tommarrow.Joe goes in, ducking Sonny's jab, and manages to get him on the ropes where he procedes to land numerous hooks and crosses to the head of Liston. Sonny falls, while barely clinging with one hand on the ropes. He manages to climb to his feet at the count of 9, with one eye swollen shut, and blood leaking from his mouth and nose. The referee calls it a day, and declares Joe the winner...

Of course the same outcome may go the other way....

[Bummy Davis]

I COULD SEE lOUIS DOWN BUT HE GETS UP and hit Sonny fast and hard with some of the most brutal shots Sonny was ever hit with Sonny tries to make a fight of it and Joe is carefull for the husky bears power but a brutal combo chops Sonny down around the 8th Joes speed and power too much for Liston

[Quickhands21]

Yeah ok..Louis wud get destroyed.

[Quickhands21]

Liston hit harder.Way better jab.took a better shot.What i think it comes down to is the better chin..Liston would walk through him an score a big ko

[Loewe]

Liston hit harder.Way better jab.took a better shot.What i think it comes down to is the better chin..Liston would walk through him an score a big ko

Why do you say Liston has the better chin? Louis was knocked down often but only KOed twice and only by very hard punchers and one time far past his prime. Getting knocked down isn´t an indication of a bad thing.

I think Mr. Magoo gave us a good impression how the fight would unfold. Louis is just a step above Liston I think and i would make him the 65:35 favourite.

[fists of fury]

Liston hit harder.Way better jab.took a better shot.What i think it comes down to is the better chin..Liston would walk through him an score a big ko

Sorry, but nobody walks through Louis, no way.

I admit to being a little surprised in that I rate Sonny better than Louis in a few key categories when I really think about it, but it's very hard for me to pick against the Shuffling Shadow. Louis was never outgunned or outfought. He had problems with movers like Conn or Farr. but the big hitters never seemed to worry Louis much.

I also think Louis' chin is being sold short. Yes alright he was knocked down a few times, but they were nearly all flash knockdowns. It took a sharp puncher like Schmeling 12 rounds to dispose of Louis and the only other man to Ko Louis (an old Louis) was Marciano, whose power is not questionable.
Even then, prior to that Marciano hit Louis with some big shots and Louis took them well.

And by God, if you made the mistake of knocking Louis down, you paid dearly for it. That to me is key here. You may knock him down, but he will make you pay. His mental strength was greater than Liston's in my opinion. He could get up to win.

This will be a tough match, one where Louis would struggle because of Liston's great jab, but I think Louis would be busier and land in combination more. His quicker hands would surely be a factor as well. I reckon the guy who wants it more would prevail and for me that guy would be Louis.

Louis UD 15.

[RockyJim]

I like Magoo's theory...AND.....let's not forget that Sonny QUIT against the light hitting Ali in 1964 & 1965....AND...Sonny does not WALK through Joe Louis!!
The Brown Bomber by KO...

[Holmes' Jab]

Very tough call, but I edge towards a Louis win via narrow decision: just doing enough down the championship rounds. Liston has the better chin (though Louis' powers of recovery were brilliant), power is about equal, both were very adaptable fighters who could puch and box with equal measure, Louis throws the slightly better, faster and more fluent combinations which would be the deciding factor IMO.

Liston's jab is one of the top 3 ever at the weight and his reach will give Louis a tough time but when I think about it whilst this is the case Louis's style lent to his opponent having to move towards the inside in order to land with success and score points, Louis could move inside and out, was hard to catch clean fighting out of that low crouch. Louis essentially a stalker who fought off the back foot. He waited for his opponent to make their move and then nailed them with shots and moved out, he was utterly masterful at that specific style, though: waiting for his opponent to move in and once this happened he sensed the openings and picked his punches, with stunning accuracy, leverage, crispness and perhaps most importantly with Tag Heuer type impeccable timing. Of course Liston has the chin to last the distance and would have more than his fair share of moments, but Louis takes it just.

[hopkinsfan07]

anyone saying this would be easy for liston is stupid clearly, ill give my thoughts when i have more time

[Holmes' Jab]

Sorry, but nobody walks through Louis, no way.



Very true that. By even attempting to walk through him would be making a big, big mistake.

[zadfrak]

Lean towards Louis in this one. TKO late w/ those great untelegraphed punches.

I just don't like that Liston corner in a huge fight like this. The gap between these 2 corners is about as wide as it gets & is up there with Holmes/Cooney. I'll go with the superior corner and Blackman & Seamon to figure out Sonny's style and implement the correct strategy and tactics for the win.

[Quickhands21]

Liston was better then anyone Joe Louis ever faced.The same could be said for sonny.I just think a prime Liston destroys him.Sonny is a whole other different monster.Louis plodding style just wouldnt be enough.

[Quickhands21]

Following fighters i pick over a prime louis
Foreman
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holyfield
Lewis
Holmes
Liston

[McGrain]

Liston would walk through him

Not possible and not really Liston's style.

[Quickhands21]

Not possible and not really Liston's style.
Not possible.right.Ok Liston would jab his head back for a round or 2 an then take him out.Liston does what shmelling did times 2

[McGrain]

Not possible.right.Ok Liston would jab his head back for a round or 2 an then take him out.Liston does what shmelling did times 2


If you think that the Liston jab can win it that's not an unreasonable position, but nobody is going to "walk through" Louis's punches. And Liston didn't fight like that. He was most aggressive with hurt or mobile opponents, against cracking punchers he didn't rush things, generally. He didn't have to.

Personally, I think that Louis is very good at ditching the jab and the length of the Liston punch would work against him IMO.

[janitor]

Following fighters i pick over a prime louis
Foreman
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holyfield
Lewis
Holmes
Liston

Apart from Liston and Tyson I would give these guys little chance.

Liston and Tyson are underdogs.

[janitor]

Not possible.right.Ok Liston would jab his head back for a round or 2 an then take him out.Liston does what shmelling did times 2

You dont seem to understand either Louis's style or Listons style.

Neither of these guys took a step forward if they could make their oponent do it for them.

They both specialised in fighting on the back foot and using their oponents forward momentum against them and were deadly at it.

This might actualy be a snore fest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Muchmoore]

Following fighters i pick over a prime louis
Foreman
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holyfield
Lewis
Holmes
Liston

Louis would beat Holyfield pretty easily, as easy as anyone could beat him anyway.

I'd make Ali the favorite over Louis but Louis could pull out the upset, in a 3 fight series Louis would definently win one of the rematches.

Frazier would get battered and stopped by Louis, he'd get nailed coming in and might only last 3 or 4 rounds.

Lewis-Louis is a tough fight to pick. A jab alone isn't going to beat Louis though like Tua and Tyson. He would need to open up and he might get countered.

I'd make Louis the favorite here as well against Liston. He could get knocked down and it would be anyones fight for the first 8 rounds but Louis would take it more often than not. Keep in mind Liston is pretty much Joe's size, he isn't a giant.

Tyson is a bad matchup for Louis in my opinion and blasts him out in about 6. But Louis would be live all the way.

Foremans defense is far too leaky for a puncher like Louis. Unless he blasts him out early by a massive uppercut the chances are slim.

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston and Tyson are underdogs.


I've both down as a very a very close call. Tyson has a chance to get him early, but I don't think he'd quite do it: Louis would brave it out slowly gain the upperhand through the middle rounds onwards and emerge with a decision. Whilst Tyson could knock him down Louis usually recuperated in the blink of an eye, though against a peak Tyson it's a bit dicey to lose focus or get caught big. I've already stated my thoughts on the thread matchup. Make no bones about it, though Louis is going to be tested bigtime by either of these guys and will need to produce a consistently great performance to prevail. There's every chance and I think he would, but ....


Only two I'd favour against peak Louis is Ali and Holmes. The best a very small cluster of others can get is 50/50. Tunney, Lewis and Johnson are very intriguing matchups.

[Muchmoore]

This might actualy be a snore fest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

As weird as that sounds regarding a Liston and Louis fantasy match up you're probably right.

[McGrain]

As weird as that sounds regarding a Liston and Louis fantasy match up you're probably right.


There would be very exciting flash-points. Liston drops Louis and then comes for him and Louis fires back would be the best example. But how do you think rounds 11 and 12 would go down in a close 12 round fight, or if Louis felt he was trailing? Get ready.

[Holmes' Jab]

Foremans defense is far too leaky for a puncher like Louis. Unless he blasts him out early by a massive uppercut the chances are slim.


Good post and reasons for your picks. I particularly agree with this one. Tyson could put Louis away early, but I can't see it. Louis whilst being knocked down plenty of times was a nightmare to finish off and only with Schmeling (whilst near his peak) was he knocked out, and that was on big accumulation after being hurt real early. He tightened his defensive technique after this and hadn't quite reached his absolute best yet anyway.

Frazier would indeed be stopped early-mid rounds, Holyfield would be game but broken down and stopped late on. Louis-Lewis is where things get very interesting, however.

[Muchmoore]

There would be very exciting flash-points. Liston drops Louis and then comes for him and Louis fires back would be the best example. But how do you think rounds 11 and 12 would go down in a close 12 round fight, or if Louis felt he was trailing? Get ready.

Exactly what I thought too. Both were very patient and measured fighters contrary to public opinion, but when they had their opponent hurt they pounced and went all out to finish them. The fight overall would probably be a bit slow paced, maybe boring but it would be great in spurts.

Late in the fight like you mentioned, the action would probably pick up quite a bit with both men looking to get the edge in the fight.

[Holmes' Jab]

There would be very exciting flash-points. Liston drops Louis and then comes for him and Louis fires back would be the best example. But how do you think rounds 11 and 12 would go down in a close 12 round fight, or if Louis felt he was trailing? Get ready.


12 rounds: could be an even fight, maybe a single round in it.

In a 15 rounder I think it would be a dead heat with three or four to go and Louis would pinch a few of the remainder to take the decision with snappy, well placed combinations. I know either could turn a stoppage or KO on the other but I dare to think otherwise (perhaps foolishly). Both have the heart and durability to brave through the worst of punishment they each dish out to each other, but I think Liston starts to get a little weary that bit earlier.

[McGrain]

Yes, in a 15 rounder I favour Louis on the superior economy. I think he could stop Liston late in the day.

[Muchmoore]

12 rounds: could be an even fight, maybe a single round in it.

In a 15 rounder I think it would be a dead heat with three or four to go and Louis would pinch a few of the remainder to take the decision with snappy, well placed combinations. I know either could turn a stoppage or KO on the other but I dare to think otherwise (perhaps foolishly). Both have the heart and durability to brave through the worst of punishment they each dish out to each other, but I think Liston starts to get a little weary that bit earlier.

:good

[Quickhands21]

You dont seem to understand either Louis's style or Listons style.

Neither of these guys took a step forward if they could make their oponent do it for them.

They both specialised in fighting on the back foot and using their oponents forward momentum against them and were deadly at it.

This might actualy be a snore fest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I do understand there styles.Patient clever boxers with big pop.Ive watched enough of them.Louis is one of my alltime favorites,If you took them both out of there era n made a Megafight It might go either way.I don't see Liston being patient in this one.I Think sonny is a bit more advanced also in terms of the era in wwich he learned.

[mr. magoo]

Following fighters i pick over a prime louis
Foreman
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holyfield
Lewis
Holmes
Liston

While I feel that its certainly possible that some or all of these men may have triumphed over Louis, it's in no way shape or form a given.

Louis may have had his fair share of flat performances against lesser opposition, but if we're honest, so did every fighter that you just listed. Louis had his limitations and shortcummings, but had more than enough power, toughness, and tactical ability to trouble all of the above mentioned names, and even beat many of them. Again, I'm not saying that it would happen, but frankly I think he deserves the very strong benefit of the doubt.

[joe the great]

Louis would win.

[Quickhands21]

Of Course its not a given.If it was then we wouldnt debate

[mr. magoo]

Of Course its not a given.If it was then we wouldnt debate

Fair enough, but when you make statements like " Liston would just walk right through him," it reads as though you have ordained the outcome with irrefutable conviction.

[Quickhands21]

Yea well..i THINK he would

[abraq]

Apart from Liston and Tyson I would give these guys little chance.

You would give Ali and Holmes little chance against Louis?

Watch Conn and Walcott fight Louis for the answer.

[janitor]

You would give Ali and Holmes little chance against Louis?

Watch Conn and Walcott fight Louis for the answer.

I did not notice Ali's name on the list. I would make Louis and Ali even money give or take. The winner would be the one who took the other most seriously.

I dont think Holmes is elusive enough to stay away from Louis or powerfull enough to go toe to toe with him. He is neither fish nor fowl and he would need to be one or the other.

[Quickhands21]

I did not notice Ali's name on the list. I would make Louis and Ali even money give or take. The winner would be the one who took the other most seriously.

I dont think Holmes is elusive enough to stay away from Louis or powerfull enough to go toe to toe with him. He is neither fish nor fowl and he would need to be one or the other.
Your out of your mind.Louis couldnt deal with either Homes or Alis jab n speed.

[Quickhands21]

I also think Tua ko's Louis.Id give W klit a 60 percent chance..Ibeabuchi ko's him to.Just watch film.its plain as day.Things have changed in sports since those days

[Bokaj]

Yeah, Louis could look a bit sluggish against the movers, but damn, could the man punch. It feels strange to use words like "beautiful" about something that causes such severe damage, but Louis punching was as beatiful as Ali's dancing.

Against Liston, the thing would be how Louis would deal with his jab. Can he get past that his faster and more accurate punches might just make the difference...

[janitor]

Your out of your mind.Louis couldnt deal with either Homes or Alis jab n speed.

I can see no reason why not.

[janitor]

[quote=Quickhands21]I also think Tua ko's Louis.Id give W klit a 60 percent chance..Ibeabuchi ko's him to.Just watch film.its plain as day.

This is not just wrong it is preposterous.

Those guys would have to pay subscription fees to join the bum of the month club.


Things have changed in sports since those days


The only changes have been for the worse.

There has never been a better all round heavyweight than Louis.