Could ANYONE Have Outboxed Marciano?

[McGrain]

Or would it always have taken a really big puncher?

[janitor]

Or would it always have taken a really big puncher?

It could certainly be done theoreticaly. Walcott came close. Its just that the chances were always against it.

Marciano had the style to eat up boxers and he always got to them one way or another. If you re ran his first fights with Walcott and Charles say three times then one of them would get past him somewhere.

[cross_trainer]

Ali could do it, definitely. Tunney as well. Holmes would probably lose...not as consistently mobile as these two guys.

[janitor]

:huh Many could've outboxed him I think. Holmes, Ali, Lewis, prime Charles maybe, maybe Roy Jones, Gene Tunney, someone like a prime Riddick Bowe, etc. I could probably think of more.

A lot of people outboxed him for a few rounds.

It was beating him over the distence that was hard.

[heerko koois]

:think Balboa maybe .....

[McGrain]

:huh Many could've outboxed him I think. Holmes, Ali, Lewis, prime Charles maybe, maybe Roy Jones, Gene Tunney, someone like a prime Riddick Bowe, etc. I could probably think of more.


Well Lewis is a massive puncher, and sooner or later it's going to come down to that if he wants to win.

I don't think Jones is a sensible shout...fifteen rounds Sweet Pea, NOT getting hit on that chin?

Gene Tunney is an interesting one, as is peak Charles, but this is one of those things where it would be sensible to pick either of those guys and yet, I wouldn't on the night...I would expect Rocky to catch up with either of these guys as was his habit.

That leaves us with Holmes (50/50 for me) and Ali...Ali would be the one, but I still think it would come to serious violence around 10.

[pjo479]

i agree ali could have outboxed him but marciano had a lethal punch at any time of the fight im not so sure ali takes marciano's best

[McGrain]

A lot of people outboxed him for a few rounds.

It was beating him over the distence that was hard.


I think that sooner or later you would have to smash his head in if you wanted to beat him, I don't think you could keep him of with boxing once you started to fade. And no-one at less than 100% in terms of stamina would be able to do it.

I actually think Rocky has a serious chance to beat 70's Ali.

I'm in a nightmare here. Marciano and Dempsey are my #13 and #11 and I can't keep them down.

[McGrain]

i agree ali could have outboxed him but marciano had a lethal punch at any time of the fight im not so sure ali takes marciano's best

Well I think he could, though maybe he'd have to take a count.

"What happens next" is the question?

[Thread Stealer]

Holmes and Ali were respectable punchers that I would pick to outbox Rocky.

[john garfield]

A lot of people outboxed him for a few rounds.

It was beating him over the distence that was hard.

You've nailed it, J. Amateurs made him look foolish in the gym. Faster, flashier, more fluid boxers would do the same in a bout, until....

"Fatigue makes cowards of us all"...and Rocky cashed in on that.

[startown81]

A lot of people outboxed him for a few rounds.

It was beating him over the distence that was hard.
You got to remember that Marciano was only 187lbs. Guys like Lewis, Holmes, Ali would be to big and fast for Rocky.

[McGrain]

You got to remember that Marciano was only 187lbs. Guys like Lewis, Holmes, Ali would be to big and fast for Rocky.


But how does this advantage in size manifest itself? Because they can punch hard? He had a head like rock. Because he couldn't reach the opponents chin easily? Can you imagine having Rocky work the body for 10 rounds? Because of reach? He's only interested in getting inside whether it's 91" or 71"...fast is the interesting word in your sentance for me, not big.

[janitor]

You got to remember that Marciano was only 187lbs. Guys like Lewis, Holmes, Ali would be to big and fast for Rocky.

A lot of people he fought should have been too big, fast or skilled.

He ate people who should be able to beat him in theory.

[Muchmoore]

Ali would of. Holmes and Tunney could of but I'm not too sure.

[McGrain]

Hey...what about Corbett? What kind of chance would he have had? Seriously, Marciano may have been made for Corbett, more than anyone...didn't use a guard as his first line but his second line, meanwhile he's not exhausing himself like Ali might...more conservative with movement.

[mcvey]

Or would it always have taken a really big puncher?
I would say Ali ,Holmes,Tunney ,would probably out box Rocky but to out fight him ------maybeDempsey,Louis,Jeffries,Foreman ,Liston.Bottom line he is no picnic for any heavy weight.

[Bummy Davis]

Outboxed for a while but could anyone outbox Marciano for 15 rounds and sustain the pace and punishment the man dished out,Ali fought a good pace vs Frazier in the 1st fight but tired,I think Ali has a chance but not likely,Holmes could never get off the floor from the right hand that Marciano would hit him with and survive, Tunney recovered the best after the long count and has a chance but a slim one, Marciano was a more weardown damage type of fighter and he could break the best rythym fighters rythym

[rr94]

Ali outboxs him...easy

Foreman walks right through him (a la Foreman/Joe Frazier)...easy

Marciano was 185 pounds; i don't think he would get to Lewis (Manny Steward era).

I think Ibeabucchi beats him.

I'll say a prime Holmes jabs to win a UD.

And a prime Louis, not a faded Louis, would have beaten him.

I'd love to see Earnie Shavers/Marciano...not gonna pick a winner, but i'd love to see it.

I don't think RJJ would have a shot...he'd be swarmed 15 rounds and Glen Johnson already exposed him with that style.

[McGrain]

Is this a joke thread?Lol any 200 plus boxer who has any amount of skill would out box Marciano.He struggled with Ezzard Charles a blown up 160 pound middleweight yet you would ask if anybody could outbox him?As i said before in 2007 it seems we would be over the Marciano is better than god routine but i guess some people will never grow up.

Ezzard Charles is one of the greatest boxers who has ever lived. And Rocky beat him.

[Dempsey1238]

Ezzard was not a middleweight, he was a lightheayvweight, he gain up to 188 or so pounds. Charles may have started out as a middleweight because Charles started boxing as a skinny teenager. Ali was a lightheavyweight before he turn pro. When guys get older, they feel out more. Ali feel out to be a 200 pounder, and Charles a 178 pounder about. We cant go and say Joe Fraizer beat a lightheavyweight(Ali)

[McGrain]

Ezzard was not a middleweight, he was a lightheayvweight, he gain up to 188 or so pounds. Charles may have started out as a middleweight because Charles started boxing as a skinny teenager. Ali was a lightheavyweight before he turn pro. When guys get older, they feel out more. Ali feel out to be a 200 pounder, and Charles a 178 pounder about. We cant go and say Joe Fraizer beat a lightheavyweight(Ali)


Yes, and Joe Frazier was 205lbs when he took on Ali...a small heavyweight beats a great one. Why? Because he too is great. There's always one, one idiot in any Marciano/Dempsey thread saying "they happened in black and white, they were shit" - nothing can be done for them I guess.

[cross_trainer]

Hey...what about Corbett? What kind of chance would he have had? Seriously, Marciano may have been made for Corbett, more than anyone...didn't use a guard as his first line but his second line, meanwhile he's not exhausing himself like Ali might...more conservative with movement.

Corbett wasn't as savvy at staying out of range, though. He falls into the clinch repeatedly against Fitzsimmons, and his technique controlling Courtney and McCoy is too close-range to work against Marciano. Corbett may have been cleverer in the clinch, but Marciano's mauling, impetuous style would have given him a nightmare.

[Duodenum]

If Walcott had not been cut, he would have won the first match with Marciano. If Rocky had not dropped LaStarza in their first meeting, he would have sustained his first professional loss. If his first bout with Charles had been scheduled for the modern contemptible limit of 12 rounds, Ezz would have regained the HW Title in their initial contest.

If, if, if....the fact remains that as it happened, nobody did succeed in gaining an official verdict over Rocky. Sure, Corbett, Jack Johnson, Tunney, Ali and Holmes could have stayed far enough away for 15 rounds to swing a decision win, but nobody was able to do it when Rocky was in the same ring with them, and that's all that matters.

[McGrain]

Corbett wasn't as savvy at staying out of range, though. He falls into the clinch repeatedly against Fitzsimmons, and his technique controlling Courtney and McCoy is too close-range to work against Marciano. Corbett may have been cleverer in the clinch, but Marciano's mauling, impetuous style would have given him a nightmare.


Yes...my impression of Corbett though was that he went into clinches with a definite plan...you know, so he would grab and hit. Then on the way out he would hit...What do you think?

Temprament?

Also, his terribley durable...he could possibly outpoint Marciano via scoring cleaner shots on the inside and the outside.

Do you see the KO?

[cross_trainer]

Yes...my impression of Corbett though was that he went into clinches with a definite plan...you know, so he would grab and hit. Then on the way out he would hit...What do you think?

Temprament?

Also, his terribley durable...he could possibly outpoint Marciano via scoring cleaner shots on the inside and the outside.

Do you see the KO?
Well, Fitz was able to start shoving him around on the inside after he got tired in the later rounds, and Sharkey roughed him up badly (though Sharkey was one of the dirtiest fighters in history). He would have been better technically on the inside than Marciano, but I just don't see his stamina and durability lasting him through to the end--see Sharkey, Fitz for examples.

Of course, on the flip side he survived a green Jeffries and a shot John L. Sullivan...but Jeffries' workrate would have been far below Rocky's, and John L. was too old to keep the fight up. So I'd still have to go with Marciano via (T)KO at some point later in the fight. It would probably be easier than the Charles or Walcott fights.

[McGrain]

Well, Fitz was able to start shoving him around on the inside after he got tired in the later rounds, and Sharkey roughed him up badly (though Sharkey was one of the dirtiest fighters in history). He would have been better technically on the inside than Marciano, but I just don't see his stamina and durability lasting him through to the end--see Sharkey, Fitz for examples.

Generally I bow to you on this era to the extent where I don't post to question what you say - but these are all later Corbett performances, no? When his stamina could be questioned perhaps?

What about the Jackson/Sullivan guy?

Personally I don't see Rocky stopping Corbett...and i think i'm picking Corbett to outpoint him.

[Dempsey1238]

I belive if Fitz could do the trick, so can Rocky. I agree with Crosstrainer that Marciano stops Corbett, I think around the 11th round. Once Corbett starts slowing down, I think Marciano starts banging away were ever he can hit of couse. Marciano has the power, and UNDERATED speed to get Corbett out of there.

[McGrain]

I've no doubt a prime Ali and Holmes would outbox Marciano. I also think Louis on the night of the Schmeling rematch would, too.

Louis would not outbox Marciano. He would probably give him such a bad beating tha Rocky would have to retire, but he wouldn't outbox him.

[Dempsey1238]

I belive Marciano gets to Holmes when Holmes lowers his guard in the later rounds. Holmes lack the displine in that department. And having your hands lower vs Marciano would be a welcome over hand right. I think the Rock gives about any one hell imo. No way does Holmes or Ali just walk over Marciano like some posters are claiming. Could go either way. And it will be one of thsos brutal affairs.

[McGrain]

I belive Marciano gets to Holmes when Holmes lowers his guard in the later rounds.

I think i might agree with you.


Holmes lack the displine in that department. And having your hands lower vs Marciano would be a welcome over hand right. I think the Rock gives about any one hell imo. No way does Holmes or Ali just walk over Marciano like some posters are claiming. Could go either way. And it will be one of thsos brutal affairs.

How do you think Terrell Ali and Frazier I Ali's chances differ v the Rock?

[robert ungurean]

Ali could do it, definitely. Tunney as well. Holmes would probably lose...not as consistently mobile as these two guys.
I think Marciano would have been very hard pressed just getting past Holmes jab.
I have Holmes winning this one clearly.

[Street Lethal]

I heard that he was outboxed but benefitted from generous scoring. But I defintely think he could be outboxed. Ali would do. Holmes would do it. And although they are better known as big punchers, I see Liston and Louis outboxing him.

[robert ungurean]

Ezzard Charles is one of the greatest boxers who has ever lived. And Rocky beat him.
You have to admit that Charles best days were behind him at that point.Not to mention Walcotts too.

[McGrain]

You have to admit that Charles best days were behind him at that point.Not to mention Walcotts too.

I don't think there's anything to be gained by disputing that Charles put in better performances. However, it's unlikely that anyone will dispute that Charles was one of the best boxers that ever lived. That's a fine win over an active ATG who was certainly in worse long term shape at the end of the fight than the begining.

[robert ungurean]

I don't think there's anything to be gained by disputing that Charles put in better performances. However, it's unlikely that anyone will dispute that Charles was one of the best boxers that ever lived. That's a fine win over an active ATG who was certainly in worse long term shape at the end of the fight than the begining.
Agreed.
I would have loved for them to go at it a few yrs. earlier though.

[Dempsey1238]

I think i might agree with you.




How do you think Terrell Ali and Frazier I Ali's chances differ v the Rock?

As for Ali Fraizer 1, I belive Marciano has the same shot as Fraizer did. It will be brutal, I think Ali hit harder and had more power in the 70's, because he sat on his shots when Fraizer was comeing in. Marciano would be there banging away though, Head and body of couse. I think Marciano could swarm himself to a victory similer to what Fraizer did, Fraizer had a bit more speed, but I belive Marciano's arkward stance, and angels(Fraizer lack thsos) could confuse Ali for the power to take its toll on Ali.

Not sure on the Ali from the 60's. Terrell was not relly in the class of Ali, Fraizer, or even Marciano. And its always easy to impress vs lower levels of fighters(Ask Roy Jones Jr) I think if George Chovlo could pin Ali on the ropes and give Ali a body beating(Even though Ali may seem like "God", he was peeing blood after the fight)
I like Rocky's chances because he has more power than George. Though Ali would be faster. He was still phone of getting caught on the ropes like Cooper and George has shown.

[McGrain]

I'd pick Ali 60's to beat Marciano as clean as any man could.

But 70's Ali would have to cut Rocky to be sure of victory I think.

[Dempsey1238]

Charles was robbed Vs Johnson. While Walcott was still champion. I belive Marciano would do well vs the Walcott from the Louis fights. Marciano did drag Walcott into a war with both fighters hurt. Dont belive the books in Walcott out pointed Marciano for 13 rounds, before Marciano landed. It was just back and fort action. When Walcott pulling ahead in the rounds that Marciano was blind. Than Marciano takeing over the fight in the 10th round, before Walcott regain the motion in the 11th round when he hurt the Rock with a body shot.

[cross_trainer]

Generally I bow to you on this era to the extent where I don't post to question what you say - but these are all later Corbett performances, no? When his stamina could be questioned perhaps?

Question away. I would not pretend to have all the answers, and I love a good discussion. :D


What about the Jackson/Sullivan guy?

Personally I don't see Rocky stopping Corbett...and i think i'm picking Corbett to outpoint him.

He was hurt against Choynski in his prime, if I recall correctly...certainly had problems with him. KO'd by Fitz and brutalized by Sharkey of course, while both were slightly past their best (these still deserve to be taken into account, I think...just not as definitive). Against Sullivan, he opposed a fighter who had very little stamina to spare, and when he blitzed Mitchell he did it early*. Kilrain was only a 6 round fight. I will admit that the Jackson fight is a very good one to bring up, though.

I'd say that even with the stamina of the Jackson fight, he was still fighting at a comparatively low pace when you look at Marciano. Nobody has that sort of demonic energy, especially if they're about the same size as the Rock, aren't a hard puncher, don't have an exceptional chin, don't prefer inside fighting anyway, and have a style that would tend to get them tied up.

* Interesting sidenote: Corbett used strongman Louis Attila for his expertise in weightlifting as a "personal trainer" for the Mitchell fight. He claimed that the training had given him a stiffer punch than usual, and judging from Mitchell getting flattened I'd have to agree.

[Dempsey1238]

I not sure Ali could do it, George a fighter with Marciano's similer style gave Ali a good scrap. I just belive Marciano would do better is all.

[cross_trainer]

Perhaps a guy with a style like Terrell or Lewis (sans power) may be able to pull it off. Boring, tall, jabbing fighter who can tie Rocky up on the inside. He'd need a great chin and stamina, however.

[McGrain]

He was hurt against Choynski in his prime, if I recall correctly

Very much so! But this was his introduction to the big time. It would certainly be an exaggeration to call him green but it was a step up in class. I think I'm right in saying that Corbett maintained this was his hardest fight even after Sullivan...don't know what happened after that as most of my stuff comes from the Pollack book.


Against Sullivan, he opposed a fighter who had very little stamina to spare,

I like this fight for Corbett, though I'd agree with your observation. What I like about it is how he describes seeing Sullivan try to lower his arms, for a short rest, and that was always when he elected to push the action, when he'd seen a sign of Sullivan's tiredness. It is easier to beat a great fighter when they are short of stamina but I was impressed by how he organised things so perfectly in terms of pressure.

I feel that if Corbett is fighting, many inangibles may favour him - you must add 5% in terms of his chances unless he is in with a very smart general (as opposed to a capable one, which Rocky certainly was).


and when he blitzed Mitchell he did it early*. Kilrain was only a 6 round fight. I will admit that the Jackson fight is a very good one to bring up, though.

Yes; dissapionting that he even made these fights.

I'd say that even with the stamina of the Jackson fight, he was still fighting at a comparatively low pace when you look at Marciano.

It's an intersting one; how does 25 rounds of hard fighting (plus 20 less hard) circa 1891 translate into stamina and energy in a VERY hard fight circa Rocky's era?

You're the man to ask, what do you think?


Nobody has that sort of demonic energy, especially if they're about the same size as the Rock,

You mean Rocky may manhandle Corbett with ease? I personally am not convinced. But it is possible.

aren't a hard puncher,

No powder puff either by the sound of it. As you have indicated, the Kilrain an Mitchell fights were short...those boys may have been passed their best but they certianly needed to be put away.

don't have an exceptional chin,

Nor was it made of glass...I don't think he was there for the taking, put it that way...I'd see him getting dropped by Rocky's bigger shots, the defensive work would be crucial.

don't prefer inside fighting anyway, and have a style that would tend to get them tied up.

He may not have preferred it, but he could do it and as i've said, I like this habit he had of scoring on the way into a clinch.

* Interesting sidenote: Corbett used strongman Louis Attila for his expertise in weightlifting as a "personal trainer" for the Mitchell fight. He claimed that the training had given him a stiffer punch than usual, and judging from Mitchell getting flattened I'd have to agree.


I hadn't hear that, thank you.

[NickHudson]

exactly, things change in wars of attrition...

A lot of people outboxed him for a few rounds.

It was beating him over the distence that was hard.

[China_hand_Joe]

Mikkel Kessler would outbox Marciano -fullstop-

[Leeroy]

Marciano had extremely underrated head movement,and could punch hard rouds 1 through 15. He fought good boxers,yet always came out on top.

In my opinion you would need great stamina,a huge reach advantage and great boxing skills - someone like Ali would be the best opponent to beat Marciano....

I still think Marciano wins against Ali in a late round KO......given that,I think the best option;someone who would have the best shot against Marciano would have been Joe Frazier.

Good jaw,with a reach advantage. Good head movement;better than Rocky's,with great power. It would have been a close fight......

Other than these two opponents,I don't see that many heavyweights who could decisively beat Rocky.

[McGrain]

Mikkel Kessler would outbox Marciano -fullstop-


He would have been smashed into two seperate peices.

[China_hand_Joe]

:bbb He would have been smashed into two seperate peices.Probably -fullstop

[Marnoff]

You got to remember that Marciano was only 187lbs. Guys like Lewis, Holmes, Ali would be to big and fast for Rocky.

I can't imagine Lewis being too fast for Marciano.... Size may play a role, but through Lewis's career his chin was very accessible. It was good, but accessible, and that would hurt him.

[Marnoff]

Marciano had extremely underrated head movement,and could punch hard rouds 1 through 15. He fought good boxers,yet always came out on top.

In my opinion you would need great stamina,a huge reach advantage and great boxing skills - someone like Ali would be the best opponent to beat Marciano....

I still think Marciano wins against Ali in a late round KO......given that,I think the best option;someone who would have the best shot against Marciano would have been Joe Frazier.

Good jaw,with a reach advantage. Good head movement;better than Rocky's,with great power. It would have been a close fight......

Other than these two opponents,I don't see that many heavyweights who could decisively beat Rocky.

Mike Tyson would give him hell. As much as anyone else possibly could.

[Quick Cash]

How many heavyweights from the top ten could Marciano have beat, really? I find it hard conceptualizing a hypothetical match-up wherein he'd obviously dominate

[China_hand_Joe]

I cannot imagine a worse fight for Marciano than Lewis -fullstop-

[janitor]

How many heavyweights from the top ten could Marciano have beat, really? I find it hard conceptualizing a hypothetical match-up wherein he'd obviously dominate

If a fighter is good enough to be ranked in your top 20 then he ought to be able to give your number one a fairly stiff argument.

So no I don't think that he would necisarily dominate any of my top 10.

[groove]

every thread on Marciano that comes up they say he would take Ali cuz look what Frazier did to Ali in their first fight. That WASN'T PEAK ALI. Peak Ali was fighting in the mid 60s. Mid 60s Ali would've gave Ali 1971 a good beating. How a man who is out of the game for 3 1/2 years comes back and is called PEAK is beyond a joke. Unbelievable.

[Titan1]

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon.

[Bummy Davis]

Ezzard Charles is one of the greatest boxers who has ever lived. And Rocky beat him.

:good

[Bummy Davis]

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon.

These overweight Heavyweights could run for a few rounds before they got there holes handed to them

[cross_trainer]

Very much so! But this was his introduction to the big time. It would certainly be an exaggeration to call him green but it was a step up in class. I think I'm right in saying that Corbett maintained this was his hardest fight even after Sullivan...don't know what happened after that as most of my stuff comes from the Pollack book.

I like this fight for Corbett, though I'd agree with your observation. What I like about it is how he describes seeing Sullivan try to lower his arms, for a short rest, and that was always when he elected to push the action, when he'd seen a sign of Sullivan's tiredness. It is easier to beat a great fighter when they are short of stamina but I was impressed by how he organised things so perfectly in terms of pressure.

I feel that if Corbett is fighting, many inangibles may favour him - you must add 5% in terms of his chances unless he is in with a very smart general (as opposed to a capable one, which Rocky certainly was).

Yes; dissapionting that he even made these fights.

It's an intersting one; how does 25 rounds of hard fighting (plus 20 less hard) circa 1891 translate into stamina and energy in a VERY hard fight circa Rocky's era?

You're the man to ask, what do you think?


I think that, judging from the only film that exists of Corbett in a long fight, he fought at a lower pace--especially considering that the account of the fight I read claimed he was "fighting too fast". Against Jackson, who was a skilled, powerful counterpuncher like Fitz, he would probably have fought at a reasonable but not exceptional pace.



You mean Rocky may manhandle Corbett with ease? I personally am not convinced. But it is possible.

No powder puff either by the sound of it. As you have indicated, the Kilrain an Mitchell fights were short...those boys may have been passed their best but they certianly needed to be put away.

True, but Kilrain was not put away, and Sullivan took a 20+ round beating before going down from exhaustion. Corbett did knock Fitz down, but it wasn't a 10-count and Fitz was a middleweight...as were Choynski and Mitchell, who were his other best knockouts. He may have hit hard enough to sting you when he wanted to, but I get the feeling that Rocky won't have much trouble taking his punches.


Nor was it made of glass...I don't think he was there for the taking, put it that way...I'd see him getting dropped by Rocky's bigger shots, the defensive work would be crucial.

He may not have preferred it, but he could do it and as i've said, I like this habit he had of scoring on the way into a clinch.

Yes, he was good at hitting you as he was coming in. I just see Rocky's physicality and unexpectedly high workrate taking its toll. Corbett's skills may be good in the clinches, but it was never his "best strategy". Much of his energy would have to go into controlling Rocky, who I believe to be the physically stronger, more active man as well as the harder hitter.

[groove]

Ezzard Charles lost to 2 fighters in the year before Marciano beat him. Don't overrate the win. Yeah he was great and it was a good victory for Marciano but this place stinks of hypocrisy. Ali beat Liston who was undefeated in 10 years and gets nowhere near the same amount of credit. Liston was shit, blah, blah, blah. Well he must've been well shit to be undefeated in 10 years. Go figure.

[janitor]

Ezzard Charles lost to 2 fighters in the year before Marciano beat him. Don't overrate the win. Yeah he was great and it was a good victory for Marciano but this place stinks of hypocrisy. Ali beat Liston who was undefeated in 10 years and gets nowhere near the same amount of credit.

The crucial diference is that Liston had been up untill the small hours of the morning at the craps table swilling back whisky the night before he fought Ali.

Charles had seen better days when he fought Marciano but hecame to give the fight of his life. The every great fighter has one last great fight in them bout.

[la-califa]

Jack Johnson had the boxing ability to move around & outbox Marciano plus the power to keep Marciano at bay. This one , two combination would seem like the best bet for success against Marciano.

[ChrisPontius]

In what fights did you see Johnson demonstrating the ability to move around and outbox his opponent from the outside? Nearly everytime he fell in a clinch.

It sounds to me like people imagine Johnson to be a master boxer who used his size and keeps a distance, based on reports. But films shows quite the contrary.
I'm not convinced he's got the power to keep Rocky away from him, either.

[McGrain]

Ali beat Liston who was undefeated in 10 years and gets nowhere near the same amount of credit. Liston was shit, blah, blah, blah. Well he must've been well shit to be undefeated in 10 years. Go figure.

I think Liston was a wonderful fighter. I also think there was something very strange about both of his fights with Ali. But I don't use it to beat Ali up, Ali was a wonderful fighter, and if he's not in a guys top 2 then that guy has some explaining to do.

[Marciano Frazier]

Or would it always have taken a really big puncher? Why do you assume a really big puncher would've done the job?

But yes, I'm sure Marciano could have been outboxed. Walcott wasn't too terribly far off in their first fight, afterall. Surely, say, Ali or Johnson or Holmes would at least have respectable chances at building up a lead and holding onto it for the full route.

[JohnThomas1]

I not sure Ali could do it, George a fighter with Marciano's similer style gave Ali a good scrap. I just belive Marciano would do better is all.

I wouldn't compare Foreman and Marciano by a longshot. George was much bigger and IMO fought way differently.

[la-califa]

A heavyweight Jones wouldn't have the speedy reflexes. Marciano would dig in and land punishing shots to the body then move in for the kill in the later rounds. And Marciano hits a heck of a lot harder than Glen Johnson!

[McGrain]

Why do you assume a really big puncher would've done the job?.

Whilst i'm not suggesting Earnie Shavers would neccesarily get the job done, I think that Rocky was there to be hit to a greater extent than most ATG heavyweights, and was always boring in. He'd be vulnerable to the more massive shots from a Liston or a Lewis.

[McGrain]

Jones didn't get hit on his chin for like 50 fights? If he did get hit(and he did) it was never a clean shot because he had the reflexes to duck the best of it and roll with the punches. I think Marciano is too slow and short armed to catch Jones. I always think relying on one punch is lame, so I think Jones beats him a good 2 of 3.

Was he ever in with someone as heavy handed and bullish as Marciano though? Of course not. I accept that there is an intangible here (As alwyas there are many in fact) but I just don't see Jones ever winning this type of fight. I would go so far as to say it is impossible for Jones to stay out of serious trouble for fifteen rounds, and if he gets into trouble v Rocky, he'd need luck, more heart than he has previously exhibited and all those lovely skills to escape.

And if he manages it, there's still the next round.

[mcvey]

I think that, judging from the only film that exists of Corbett in a long fight, he fought at a lower pace--especially considering that the account of the fight I read claimed he was "fighting too fast". Against Jackson, who was a skilled, powerful counterpuncher like Fitz, he would probably have fought at a reasonable but not exceptional pace.




True, but Kilrain was not put away, and Sullivan took a 20+ round beating before going down from exhaustion. Corbett did knock Fitz down, but it wasn't a 10-count and Fitz was a middleweight...as were Choynski and Mitchell, who were his other best knockouts. He may have hit hard enough to sting you when he wanted to, but I get the feeling that Rocky won't have much trouble taking his punches.



Yes, he was good at hitting you as he was coming in. I just see Rocky's physicality and unexpectedly high workrate taking its toll. Corbett's skills may be good in the clinches, but it was never his "best strategy". Much of his energy would have to go into controlling Rocky, who I believe to be the physically stronger, more active man as well as the harder hitter.
Corbett was dropped and stopped by a body shot from a middleweight,abeit a hard hitting one ,what do you think Rockys punches would do to him?

[McGrain]

Corbett was dropped and stopped by a body shot from a middleweight,abeit a hard hitting one ,what do you think Rockys punches would do to him?


And Cooper dropped Ali and Braddock dropped Louis and Rocky was to small...Corbett has proven his ability to take punches from one of the hardest hitters who ever boxed in Sullivan, whilst I don't think anybody would enjoy a night with Rocky a first round stoppage is also pretty unlikey.

[Dempsey1238]

Sullivan was OLD, been wore out for getting drunk, and had not fought in years. I would hardly use this fight to determind Corbett's toughtness. But most reports, it would seem Sullivan hardly landed anything worth wild.