Question for those who were around in the 70's...

[ChrisPontius]

Going into Ali vs Frazier I in 1971, what did you think of Ali refusing to serve in Vietnam? Did that make you root for Frazier? Or did you not really care about the political side? And if you did, did that opinion change over the years?

Also, do you think this was the best heavyweight fight you've ever witnessed in terms of build-up, anticipation and actually living up to its hype?

[salsanchezfan]

..............I was three years old at the time, and can distinctly remember thinking he was being used merely as a puppet of the black muslims. I sat in my crib and pondered that quite a bit. Yes I did. :bart

[ChrisPontius]

..............I was three years old at the time, and can distinctly remember thinking he was being used merely as a puppet of the black muslims. I sat in my crib and pondered that quite a bit. Yes I did. :bart

Was this before or after you starting running marathons?

[red cobra]

No, it was not the draft thing that made me root for Joe Frazier in '71, rather, it was the fact that I have always been somewhat iconoclastic in regards to popular favorites whoever they happen to be, celebs that people make too much of a big deal about. That and the fact that I was convinced at the time that Ali was a bit on the racist side, and his devotion to the Nation of Islam somewhat proved that. I know that Ali became all warm and gushy with the libs in the media and the darling of the lib intelligensia, per se, and today, with Thomas Hauser and others making a religion out of him and all, it isn't fashionable to dwell on all the racist crap Ali spewed out about white people. He should have been intelligent enough to know that not ALL white folks felt the same way on things, but that "white devil" shit was his deal back in those days. He was quoted in some periodical as saying that he wouldn't let his kids ever "shake the hand of a white man", for instance. People who idolize him nowadays seem to have forgotten about all that racist crap he used to put out.

[salsanchezfan]

Was this before or after you starting running marathons?



.............About a year before.

[Chinxkid]

I was a little older than Sal, but still a kid myself, and anybody my age or older was aware of what was going on in the country. I remember being caught in the middle of two processions of vehement protesters about the time of FOTC, one a group of young long hairs parading for peace, the other made of ill-fitting uniformed VFW middle age guys. They met at the corner of Forbes and Wood where I stood in downtown Pittsburgh and the only thing that kept them from tearing each other apart was a troop of city police officers on horseback. Americans ten or more years older than I was were torn between the values of their fathers and the ones that seemed more enlightened and righteous. Was it a book or a movie that was entitled, "What If They Gave a War and Nobody Came?"

They always say that religion and politics are two subjects best avoided, but a boxing forum seems the perfect place to address this, so here goes.

There aren't many things worse in my opinion than a "Chicken Hawk," a guy or a gal that screams for blood but is not in the fight themselves and never has been; a sentiment that is relative to both war and boxing. Guys who refused the draft in those days were called cowards and traders and just flat unpatriotic, something you hear attributed these days to anybody who has the audacity, I'd call it guts, to object to the Iraq War. "Beware the Military/Industrial Complex," who said it? An ex-general in the American military, and also ex-President of the United States, Dwight Eisenhower.

Was he a traitor? A Coward? Unpatriotic? How 'bout Wesley Clark? You have to have a feel for what was going on in this country during the Vietnam War, the first major American conflict, second if you count Korea, that was unprovoked, when the country truly was divided in two camps. Families were at odds, lifelong friends estranged, college campuses split down the middle, Ali was just one guy, a famous one and a figurehead because of who he was, but on the street where I grew up half the big guys went to Vietnam and the other half, minus the 4f's, either went to Canada or just disappeared. I've since had talks of this with both types, and almost to a man they agree that it took alotta guts either way.

Are we really that naive to think that our governments don't lie to us? It's a business, lemme say that again, and never more than now has war meant big profit, no war in the history of wars anywhere has been more privatized than has Iraq. To answer your question whether Ali's refusal of the draft made me root one way or another, for myself, I'd answer no, but many were those who did lean either way because of Ali's stance. I have no animosity either way. Individuals, which is all Ali was, regardless of his fame, were victims then just as they are now, and I don't pass judgement on a kid today who sees little financial future for himself, so enlists to jump start his career or just grab a nest egg he can use to put down on a house or start a business or an older guy/gal to save his wife and kids.

Frazier, like alotta people in the public eye in that time, to my knowledge kept his views on Vietnam to himself. Most people then and now are not all that political; but I'll bet if you asked Joe then or now whether it is ok to throw someone and unwarranted street beating, he'd have no problem answering that one. Ali was outspoken, was political, was 4f before he became such an embarrassment to the Nixon administration; coincidence, not a fuckin' chance!

[Bokaj]

with Thomas Hauser and others making a religion out of him and all, it isn't fashionable to dwell on all the racist crap Ali spewed out about white people.

I think that's a bit unfair on Hauser. He does touch upon much of the hypocrasy and biggotery Ali displayed during those years. I don't think he sweeps that under the rug at all. Many other white "liberals" have, but Hauser shouldn't really be slung in with them.

[jowcol]

I think I speak for a lot of the boxing fans at the time in that it didn't really matter. Sports were separate from politics in my mind. I was seventeen at the time, experimenting with drugs, anti-Vietnam and loved Ali (second favorite fighter to Floyd Patterson of course :D )
All my group of 'fight friends' were rooting for Ali, but we were scared and knew that Smokin' Joe was a warrior and a force to be reckoned with. I remember saying the afternoon before the fight that one of these guys is going to have a loss on their record tomorrow morning, the pre-hype was amazing!
In retrospect, Muhammad IMO got a lot of 'free passes' during his career, his bum of the month fights post-George, no Foreman rematch,
etc...
He tortured Floyd, called Frazier an ape, etc...but I think if you were to talk to him now he would sincerely regret many of the things he said and did, just call it a sign of the times.
I still think he was the greatest HW of all time; we never saw a 'prime' Ali, circa summer of 67 to the summer of 70.

My $0.02

[he grant]

I feel it is the opposite ... the fight was perhaps the hugest of all time precisely because of the political impact of the age ... Ali became a monster anti-establishment figure while Frazier, blacker, poorer and harder than Ali ever was, became the figure of the establishment ... it was an extremely volitile time in US history and the fighters and the fight became symbols of an age ...

I personally feel Ali was easily influenced and manipulated at the time but he has proven through the decades that his commitment to this religion is legit and has to be respected for it ...

I can go on and on about this but I think the point is made ..

[Addie]

I have never seen The fight of the century.

[salsanchezfan]

I have never seen The fight of the century.



.............It's worth seeing, but drastically overrated.

[punchy]

I was thirteen at the time and a huge fan of Ali I was also against the war I had also just started to grow my hair long which was at the time for a thirteen year old very radical I remember being very proud that I had the longest hair in my school year at the time. Anyway I was completely devastated that he lost, I watched it on TV, I knew little about boxing although my father had been an amateur for a short time, it wasn't possible to access boxing tapes, there were no videos then.

Times have changed I am no longer a great fan of Ali's and I realize how bad communism is and was and I don't have much hair at all now.

[he grant]

Chris, have you seen the HBO doc on the Superfight 1 ? If not, try to. It's pretty good and will give you a feeling of what the time was like here in the U.S.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Going into Ali vs Frazier I in 1971, what did you think of Ali refusing to serve in Vietnam? Did that make you root for Frazier? Or did you not really care about the political side? And if you did, did that opinion change over the years?

Also, do you think this was the best heavyweight fight you've ever witnessed in terms of build-up, anticipation and actually living up to its hype?

Mate, this one was absolutely huge at the time! Even non-boxing people couldn't stop talking about the match as the date grew closer.

In Australia I don't think too many people were that interested in the Draft issue. It was more about the Old Champ and the New Champ, and who was going to come out on top.

The resulting match was no let down either. An amazing performance by Ali, no question, especially under the circumstances. Equally, an amazing performance by Frazier, who remains one of boxing's most underated champions.

I often wonder, as I'm sure Joe does, how history would have remembered Frazier if he'd managed to edge out Ali in their matches?

[sthomas]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Going into Ali vs Frazier I in 1971, what did you think of Ali refusing to serve in Vietnam? Did that make you root for Frazier? Or did you not really care about the political side? And if you did, did that opinion change over the years?
quote]

I've read many negative comments on ESB about how horrible Ali was for being a "Draft Dodger". But I never read/hear anything about other boxers from this era and their service status. Did Frazier serve? Foreman, Quarry, etc... ?? If they did not, are they "Draft Dodgers" also?, and why are they all spared the critisizm that Ali shoulders to this day?

[Bokaj]

Mate, this one was absolutely huge at the time! Even non-boxing people couldn't stop talking about the match as the date grew closer.

In Australia I don't think too many people were that interested in the Draft issue. It was more about the Old Champ and the New Champ, and who was going to come out on top.

The resulting match was no let down either. An amazing performance by Ali, no question, especially under the circumstances. Equally, an amazing performance by Frazier, who remains one of boxing's most underated champions.

I often wonder, as I'm sure Joe does, how history would have remembered Frazier if he'd managed to edge out Ali in their matches?

It's mainly the losses to Foreman that affect Frazier's legacy, not the ones to Ali.

[ChrisPontius]

Chris, have you seen the HBO doc on the Superfight 1 ? If not, try to. It's pretty good and will give you a feeling of what the time was like here in the U.S.

No, i have not. I will look into it, thanks. :good

[groove]

I've got the full interview of this and Ali explains about the white devils issue. He doesn't think all whites are devils but it was easier to class everyone the same in that broader term and explained it in this way - if you had 10,000 snakes outside, 9,000 were harmless and 1,000 were rattle snakes that would kill yer - well would invite all 10,000 into your home not knowing which 1,000 were there intending to kill you i.e. devils. So all would stay outside your home.

Unfortunately i couldn't find that clip on utube but i found this one in that same interview about how Ali has white in him LOL.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

Going into Ali vs Frazier I in 1971, what did you think of Ali refusing to serve in Vietnam? Did that make you root for Frazier? Or did you not really care about the political side? And if you did, did that opinion change over the years?

Also, do you think this was the best heavyweight fight you've ever witnessed in terms of build-up, anticipation and actually living up to its hype?
Being English ,I probably viewed it differently to the Yanks ,but I felt Ali was entitled to his beliefs. I don't recall any other prominent sportsmen being inducted.I was rooting for Ali to win ,it was a great fight ,maybe the grwatest heavyweight fight,along with Manila,in the FOTC,Frazier took his game to an unbeleivable level,as Ali said ,"WHATEVER THE PRICE, HE WILL PAY IT".Frazier deserved the verdict ,but both men covered themselves with glory,and left some of themselves in the MSG ring that night,Frazier was never quite the same ,imo,but he gave us a fantastic demonstration of indomitable will,and triumphed over a more talented adversary,with the readiness to accept unbeleivable punishment and still come forward,incessantly throwing those big hooks .One made the other,as Ali said ,"I COULDNT BE WHAT I AM WITHOUT HIM, HE COULDNT BE WHAT HE IS WITHOUT ME ".Dempsey /Tunney,Louis /Schmeling,and more indelibly,Ali /Frazier.

[he grant]

INteresting question. IT comes down to your age at the time of the drafting and when you were called. Ali was called and refused to go in ... that was why it became such an issue ...

[mcvey]

INteresting question. IT comes down to your age at the time of the drafting and when you were called. Ali was called and refused to go in ... that was why it became such an issue ...
I wonder to what extent politics played a part in Ali's induction,being as how he was "reclassified",after he came out as a Muslim.

[la-califa]

When I was a teenager, the anticipation & Buildup for Leonard-Hearns I was incredible! The hugely popular Sugar Ray Leonard, Olympic Gold medal winner, Was in essence the lighter weight Muhamad Ali. Leonard had just conquered Roberto Duran. Thomas Hearns on the other hand was wreaking a path of destruction through the Welterweight Division. & for all intense & purposes appeared indestructable. The fight itself was great, with many changes in momentum from one fighter to the other. With a very dramatic finish. It very much did live up to the hype surrounding the fight.

[Chinxkid]

I was thirteen at the time and a huge fan of Ali I was also against the war I had also just started to grow my hair long which was at the time for a thirteen year old very radical I remember being very proud that I had the longest hair in my school year at the time. Anyway I was completely devastated that he lost, I watched it on TV, I knew little about boxing although my father had been an amateur for a short time, it wasn't possible to access boxing tapes, there were no videos then.

Times have changed I am no longer a great fan of Ali's and I realize how bad communism is and was and I don't have much hair at all now.

Communism? What's that? Times have changed, but not human nature. Those that can still abuse those that can't.

[la-califa]

Communism is alive & Well... Just Look at the Beijing Olympics, Don't let the Pretty flowers & Lightshow fool you, China are still Hardcore Communists. Tianenmen Square was not that long ago...

[Chinxkid]

Communism is alive & Well... Just Look at the Beijing Olympics, Don't let the Pretty flowers & Lightshow fool you, China are still Hardcore Communists. Tianenmen Square was not that long ago...

Of course it is. But it's not the threat it was or never was; at this point we'll never know which, unless we have to butt heads with that awakened giant. Fidel Castro's all but dead, the Soviet Union is non-existent, but we can still count North Korea and by the way, ALL of Vietnam to look to as boogie-men or parts of the Axis of Evil when we need to find a villain.

[OLD FOGEY]

I was a little older than Sal, but still a kid myself, and anybody my age or older was aware of what was going on in the country. I remember being caught in the middle of two processions of vehement protesters about the time of FOTC, one a group of young long hairs parading for peace, the other made of ill-fitting uniformed VFW middle age guys. They met at the corner of Forbes and Wood where I stood in downtown Pittsburgh and the only thing that kept them from tearing each other apart was a troop of city police officers on horseback. Americans ten or more years older than I was were torn between the values of their fathers and the ones that seemed more enlightened and righteous. Was it a book or a movie that was entitled, "What If They Gave a War and Nobody Came?"

They always say that religion and politics are two subjects best avoided, but a boxing forum seems the perfect place to address this, so here goes.

There aren't many things worse in my opinion than a "Chicken Hawk," a guy or a gal that screams for blood but is not in the fight themselves and never has been; a sentiment that is relative to both war and boxing. Guys who refused the draft in those days were called cowards and traders and just flat unpatriotic, something you hear attributed these days to anybody who has the audacity, I'd call it guts, to object to the Iraq War. "Beware the Military/Industrial Complex," who said it? An ex-general in the American military, and also ex-President of the United States, Dwight Eisenhower.

Was he a traitor? A Coward? Unpatriotic? How 'bout Wesley Clark? You have to have a feel for what was going on in this country during the Vietnam War, the first major American conflict, second if you count Korea, that was unprovoked, when the country truly was divided in two camps. Families were at odds, lifelong friends estranged, college campuses split down the middle, Ali was just one guy, a famous one and a figurehead because of who he was, but on the street where I grew up half the big guys went to Vietnam and the other half, minus the 4f's, either went to Canada or just disappeared. I've since had talks of this with both types, and almost to a man they agree that it took alotta guts either way.

Are we really that naive to think that our governments don't lie to us? It's a business, lemme say that again, and never more than now has war meant big profit, no war in the history of wars anywhere has been more privatized than has Iraq. To answer your question whether Ali's refusal of the draft made me root one way or another, for myself, I'd answer no, but many were those who did lean either way because of Ali's stance. I have no animosity either way. Individuals, which is all Ali was, regardless of his fame, were victims then just as they are now, and I don't pass judgement on a kid today who sees little financial future for himself, so enlists to jump start his career or just grab a nest egg he can use to put down on a house or start a business or an older guy/gal to save his wife and kids.

Frazier, like alotta people in the public eye in that time, to my knowledge kept his views on Vietnam to himself. Most people then and now are not all that political; but I'll bet if you asked Joe then or now whether it is ok to throw someone and unwarranted street beating, he'd have no problem answering that one. Ali was outspoken, was political, was 4f before he became such an embarrassment to the Nixon administration; coincidence, not a fuckin' chance!

"an embarrassment to the Nixon administration"

Ali was drafted and stripped of his title under the Johnson administration. By the time Nixon became president, the Ali issue was making its way to the Supreme Court.

As for the original question, Ali was unpopular long before he announced he was a Muslim or refused induction. Sonny Liston was the sentimental favorite in his first fight with Ali. Ali was just so much different than other sports stars had been. Few openly bragged. Fewer trashed opponents. He demanded to be the center of attention at all times. This type of egoism would have earlier been mocked as immature. My take would be that the draft issue probably helped his popularity as it made him an icon of the anti-war movement.

As for Frazier, someone made the good point that we have no idea what Joe thought of Vietnam.

This won't mean anything to non-Americans, but there was a similar split, although not as intense, over the gridiron star Joe Namath who was viewed as the hero of the counterculture in contrast to older icons such as Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr. Pretty much nonsense in retrospect.

[Chinxkid]

"an embarrassment to the Nixon administration"

Ali was drafted and stripped of his title under the Johnson administration. By the time Nixon became president, the Ali issue was making its way to the Supreme Court.

As for the original question, Ali was unpopular long before he announced he was a Muslim or refused induction. Sonny Liston was the sentimental favorite in his first fight with Ali. Ali was just so much different than other sports stars had been. Few openly bragged. Fewer trashed opponents. He demanded to be the center of attention at all times. This type of egoism would have earlier been mocked as immature. My take would be that the draft issue probably helped his popularity as it made him an icon of the anti-war movement.

As for Frazier, someone made the good point that we have no idea what Joe thought of Vietnam.

This won't mean anything to non-Americans, but there was a similar split, although not as intense, over the gridiron star Joe Namath who was viewed as the hero of the counterculture in contrast to older icons such as Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr. Pretty much nonsense in retrospect.

You're right about my LBJ (Nixon) administration misspeak; I actually realized it after I posted. In the same post of mine you quoted I did make reference to the fact that we didn't know what Frazier thought of Vietnam, and I still don't.

I remember the Namath thing, but that Joe wasn't vocal about his views on the war either or was he? Maybe you remember. He did have the long hair, and he also had the audacity to make a famous prediction that he lived up to, when his Jets defeated the team of that other Pittsburgh quarterback, Johnny U.

And yes, Ali was unpopular well before that. It started as early as the first Liston fight. I was a damn near baby at that time, but I do remember the uproar, especially coming from the old guard of boxing who were offended by his big mouth. I think you make a good point that Ali became even more popular by his refusal of the draft; it gave at least one half of the country a reason to get behind him. But he paid the price for it, no?

[la-califa]

Of course it is. But it's not the threat it was or never was; at this point we'll never know which, unless we have to butt heads with that awakened giant. Fidel Castro's all but dead, the Soviet Union is non-existent, but we can still count North Korea and by the way, ALL of Vietnam to look to as boogie-men or parts of the Axis of Evil when we need to find a villain. Yes the threat of Communism seems to have waned. Now we have the issue of these two bit Dictators to spill more American Blood... (Saddam Hussien, Osama Bin Laden, Kadafi,Warlords, Ect...)

[Chinxkid]

Yes the threat of Communism seems to have waned. Now we have the issue of these two bit Dictators to spill more American Blood... (Saddam Hussien, Osama Bin Laden, Kadafi,Warlords, Ect...)

All bad guys, I would agree. But innocent blood spilled, American or otherwise is hard to justify.

[la-califa]

I was a little older than Sal, but still a kid myself, and anybody my age or older was aware of what was going on in the country. I remember being caught in the middle of two processions of vehement protesters about the time of FOTC, one a group of young long hairs parading for peace, the other made of ill-fitting uniformed VFW middle age guys. They met at the corner of Forbes and Wood where I stood in downtown Pittsburgh and the only thing that kept them from tearing each other apart was a troop of city police officers on horseback. Americans ten or more years older than I was were torn between the values of their fathers and the ones that seemed more enlightened and righteous. Was it a book or a movie that was entitled, "What If They Gave a War and Nobody Came?"

They always say that religion and politics are two subjects best avoided, but a boxing forum seems the perfect place to address this, so here goes.

There aren't many things worse in my opinion than a "Chicken Hawk," a guy or a gal that screams for blood but is not in the fight themselves and never has been; a sentiment that is relative to both war and boxing. Guys who refused the draft in those days were called cowards and traders and just flat unpatriotic, something you hear attributed these days to anybody who has the audacity, I'd call it guts, to object to the Iraq War. "Beware the Military/Industrial Complex," who said it? An ex-general in the American military, and also ex-President of the United States, Dwight Eisenhower.

Was he a traitor? A Coward? Unpatriotic? How 'bout Wesley Clark? You have to have a feel for what was going on in this country during the Vietnam War, the first major American conflict, second if you count Korea, that was unprovoked, when the country truly was divided in two camps. Families were at odds, lifelong friends estranged, college campuses split down the middle, Ali was just one guy, a famous one and a figurehead because of who he was, but on the street where I grew up half the big guys went to Vietnam and the other half, minus the 4f's, either went to Canada or just disappeared. I've since had talks of this with both types, and almost to a man they agree that it took alotta guts either way.

Are we really that naive to think that our governments don't lie to us? It's a business, lemme say that again, and never more than now has war meant big profit, no war in the history of wars anywhere has been more privatized than has Iraq. To answer your question whether Ali's refusal of the draft made me root one way or another, for myself, I'd answer no, but many were those who did lean either way because of Ali's stance. I have no animosity either way. Individuals, which is all Ali was, regardless of his fame, were victims then just as they are now, and I don't pass judgement on a kid today who sees little financial future for himself, so enlists to jump start his career or just grab a nest egg he can use to put down on a house or start a business or an older guy/gal to save his wife and kids.

Frazier, like alotta people in the public eye in that time, to my knowledge kept his views on Vietnam to himself. Most people then and now are not all that political; but I'll bet if you asked Joe then or now whether it is ok to throw someone and unwarranted street beating, he'd have no problem answering that one. Ali was outspoken, was political, was 4f before he became such an embarrassment to the Nixon administration; coincidence, not a fuckin' chance! But Ali's stance was not on his opposition to the war, or the racial injustices of the Black man in America at the time. His refusal to be inducted into the Army was based totally on Religion. He stated his religious beliefs prevented him from going into war. as a consiencious objector. Which is fine, Ali should be applauded for sticking up for his religious beliefs.

[Chinxkid]

But Ali's stance was not on his opposition to the war, or the racial injustices of the Black man in America at the time. His refusal to be inducted into the Army was based totally on Religion. He stated his religious beliefs prevented him from going into war. as a consiencious objector. Which is fine, Ali should be applauded for sticking up for his religious beliefs.

Well, at the time he did state that he had no desire to go and kill people that did him no harm, "other poor brown people," is at least how I remember it.

[la-califa]

Well, at the time he did state that he had no desire to go and kill people that did him no harm, "other poor brown people," is at least how I remember it. Oh Yeah, No doubt he was full of baloney, But his official reason to the Gov't. was based on Religion. When his Religious beliefs were really put to the test, He took no action. Ali had many close & private conversations with Malcolm X. Ali knew that Elijah Muhammed was morally not following the teachings of Islam. & about the corruption within the Nation of Islam itself. He could have spoken out in support of his friend Malcolm X. Instead he said nothing. Malcolm X was ostricized by the nation of Islam, then eventually murdered...

[Chinxkid]

Oh Yeah, No doubt he was full of baloney, But his official reason to the Gov't. was based on Religion. When his Religious beliefs were really put to the test, He took no action. Ali had many close & private conversations with Malcolm X. Ali knew that Elijah Muhammed was morally not following the teachings of Islam. & about the corruption within the Nation of Islam itself. He could have spoken out in support of his friend Malcolm X. Instead he said nothing. Malcolm X was ostricized by the nation of Islam, then eventually murdered...
I tend to think he was just a young, ignorant guy thrust into the spotlight and trying to make heads or tails of the issues of the day, also of the people that were trying to use his celebrity for their own ends. It was just recently that I've heard that Muhummad felt lousy about his disloyalty to Malcolm X. Maybe you know, but he carried either a photo of him or a gift or some other reminder of their friendship around with him for years. Athletes, sooner than even rock stars or actors can achieve fame before their life experiences have a chance to catch up.

There is a tape that I've made reference to before on this forum, of Ali out on the steps of some college building in the South at the time of his refusal of the draft. He is met by reporters and cameramen and a group of college students chastising him for his stance against the war. If you haven't seen this and you're interested you should try to find it; I'm sure it's available on some on-line cite. Ali was a showman, an actor and a carnival barker, that is true. But if what he said to those frat brothers was just baloney, I'd be very surprised. It looked like heart-felt passion and anger, his words, as on the money as his straight right hand, left no doubt in me then or since that he felt strongly about the war.

The monkey wrench in all of this is of course that Ali never would have held a rifle in his hands in his tour of duty. Probably he was aware of that and either didn't trust the government not to make an example of him, or he was so angered by his reclassification from 4f to 1A that he decided to spit in their eyes regardless.

[la-califa]

I tend to think he was just a young, ignorant guy thrust into the spotlight and trying to make heads or tails of the issues of the day, also of the people that were trying to use his celebrity for their own ends. It was just recently that I've heard that Muhummad felt lousy about his disloyalty to Malcolm X. Maybe you know, but he carried either a photo of him or a gift or some other reminder of their friendship around with him for years. Athletes, sooner than even rock stars or actors can achieve fame before their life experiences have a chance to catch up.

There is a tape that I've made reference to before on this forum, of Ali out on the steps of some college building in the South at the time of his refusal of the draft. He is met by reporters and cameramen and a group of college students chastising him for his stance against the war. If you haven't seen this and you're interested you should try to find it; I'm sure it's available on some on-line cite. Ali was a showman, an actor and a carnival barker, that is true. But if what he said to those frat brothers was just baloney, I'd be very surprised. It looked like heart-felt passion and anger, his words, as on the money as his straight right hand, left no doubt in me then or since that he felt strongly about the war.

The monkey wrench in all of this is of course that Ali never would have held a rifle in his hands in his tour of duty. Probably he was aware of that and either didn't trust the government not to make an example of him, or he was so angered by his reclassification from 4f to 1A that he decided to spit in their eyes regardless. Yes, That is very interesting. I will try & find that. Could it have been possible Ali could have made more of a statement from within the Military? If he went in and used the Media to denounce the War, That could have been a huge Headache for the Gov't. How could they have Jailed or silenced Ali for speaking his mind, While at the same time be over in Vietnam fighting Communism? Oh, I don't know Volatile Times I guess...

[Chinxkid]

Yes, That is very interesting. I will try & find that. Could it have been possible Ali could have made more of a statement from within the Military? If he went in and used the Media to denounce the War, That could have been a huge Headache for the Gov't. How could they have Jailed or silenced Ali for speaking his mind, While at the same time be over in Vietnam fighting Communism? Oh, I don't know Volatile Times I guess...
You're suggestion is equally interesting. But to fight the system from within, the military system, could be again we are asking too much of a guy who all evidence to the contrary was only human, and with all that "friendly fire," lurking about? Volatile times indeed, a time of much disagreement and conflict Stateside as well. The kind of time I never thought I'd see again in this country, but you know that saying about, if you live long enough you get to see everything twice? Damn, I'm getting old.

[ChrisPontius]

As for the original question, Ali was unpopular long before he announced he was a Muslim or refused induction. Sonny Liston was the sentimental favorite in his first fight with Ali. Ali was just so much different than other sports stars had been. Few openly bragged. Fewer trashed opponents. He demanded to be the center of attention at all times. This type of egoism would have earlier been mocked as immature. My take would be that the draft issue probably helped his popularity as it made him an icon of the anti-war movement.

As for Frazier, someone made the good point that we have no idea what Joe thought of Vietnam.


Interesting. I was under the impression that Liston was not very much liked, seen as a bad, con figure.

What was your opinion on the subject?

[frankwornank]

I was 31 years of age in 1971 and I was at the fight with my wife. We paid 50.00 each for our tickets and had nice seats. I still have the stubs. It was the greatest fight in terms of matching the build up. Shortly before the fight around January, I went up to the Concord hotel in Liberty N.Y. to watch Frazier train. Was he ever intense and in great shape. He actually had to break training camp at the Concord because it was too cold, snowy and icy. He relocated to somewhere in Florida. I was rooting for Frazier for two reasons. I liked his style and I did not like the fact that Ali refused to go into the military. I must say this though, I went down to Dear Lake Pa. training camp where Ali trained to fight Floyd Patterson and got to talking to Ali. What a really nice guy. Very genuine. Interesting side point, Floyd Patterson was also at Dear Lake that day. Floyd flew down in his own Piper cub. He was a pilot. They both trained there that day and of course, the press was there as well. Talk about a really great guy, they didn't come any nicer than Floyd!.

[la-califa]

I was 31 years of age in 1971 and I was at the fight with my wife. We paid 50.00 each for our tickets and had nice seats. I still have the stubs. It was the greatest fight in terms of matching the build up. Shortly before the fight around January, I went up to the Concord hotel in Liberty N.Y. to watch Frazier train. Was he ever intense and in great shape. He actually had to break training camp at the Concord because it was too cold, snowy and icy. He relocated to somewhere in Florida. I was rooting for Frazier for two reasons. I liked his style and I did not like the fact that Ali refused to go into the military. I must say this though, I went down to Dear Lake Pa. training camp where Ali trained to fight Floyd Patterson and got to talking to Ali. What a really nice guy. Very genuine. Here's something I always wanted to know... Who was on the undercard??

[frankwornank]

Here's something I always wanted to know... Who was on the undercard??
I dont remember who was on the undercard. I looked at my ticket stub thinking it might be on there. I haven't looked at that stub for years. I said the seats were 50.00 each, they were actually 20.00 each Sect 422 Row D seats 1 and two. Another thing I forgot and was surprised by was that it was a monday night.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I believe there were two 6 rounders prior to Ali vs Frazier I as follows:

Danny McAlinden def. Rahman Ali
Jim Lee Elder def. Charlie Harris

Does that sound familiar to those that went or watched??

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Rahman Ali was of course the older brother of Muhammad Ali.

I seem to remember from a Jose Torres book that Ali was watching his brother’s fight on closed circuit TV, whilst they laced his gloves on in the change room. I think Torres noted that Ali was pretty disappointed at his brother’s loss, and it of course occurred just prior to his own match with Frazier.

As a pro Rahman won 14 matches, lost 3, and had one draw.

[OLD FOGEY]

Interesting. I was under the impression that Liston was not very much liked, seen as a bad, con figure.

What was your opinion on the subject?

What you say about Liston is true, but he was still the sentimental favorite against the then Cassius Clay. Ali once said he based his performance persona on the pro wrestler Gorgeous George. I would point out that George sold out arenas across the country with people who came to see him LOSE. No one cared who his opponent was. They wanted to see George get beat. The same happened to Ali, but he was perceptive in seeing that all this made him a great draw. Dempsey was viewed as a villain through most of his career also.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Here's something I always wanted to know... Who was on the undercard??

Just re-posting the answer to your question LA CALIFA in case you missed it first time around:
I believe there were two 6 rounders prior to Ali vs Frazier I as follows:

Danny McAlinden def. Rahman Ali
Jim Lee Elder def. Charlie Harris

Does that sound familiar to you??
Rahman Ali was of course the older brother of Muhammad Ali. I seem to remember from a Jose Torres book that Ali was watching his brother’s fight on closed circuit TV, whilst they laced his gloves on in the change room. I think Torres noted that Ali was pretty disappointed at his brother’s loss, and it of course occurred just prior to his own match with Frazier. As a pro Rahman won 14 matches, lost 3, and had one draw.
Hope that helps answer a 37 year old question LA CALIFA.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Attention: LA CALIFA.

Just re-posting the answer to your question in case you missed it first time around:

I believe there were two 6 rounders prior to Ali vs Frazier I as follows:

Danny McAlinden def. Rahman Ali
Jim Lee Elder def. Charlie Harris

Does that sound familiar to you??

Rahman Ali was of course the older brother of Muhammad Ali. I seem to remember from a Jose Torres book that Ali was watching his brother’s fight on closed circuit TV, whilst they laced his gloves on in the change room. I think Torres noted that Ali was pretty disappointed at his brother’s loss, and it of course occurred just prior to his own match with Frazier. As a pro Rahman won 14 matches, lost 3, and had one draw.

Hope that helps answer a 37 year old question LA CALIFA.

[frankwornank]

Truth is the undercard was pretty much a non-factor. The buzz leading up to the main event was the undercard. Celebrities all over the place. Everyone was interacting with everyone regarding the main event.

[la-califa]

Attention: LA CALIFA.

Just re-posting the answer to your question in case you missed it first time around:

I believe there were two 6 rounders prior to Ali vs Frazier I as follows:

Danny McAlinden def. Rahman Ali
Jim Lee Elder def. Charlie Harris

Does that sound familiar to you??

Rahman Ali was of course the older brother of Muhammad Ali. I seem to remember from a Jose Torres book that Ali was watching his brother’s fight on closed circuit TV, whilst they laced his gloves on in the change room. I think Torres noted that Ali was pretty disappointed at his brother’s loss, and it of course occurred just prior to his own match with Frazier. As a pro Rahman won 14 matches, lost 3, and had one draw.

Hope that helps answer a 37 year old question LA CALIFA. Yeah, Thanks. Jeez, no wonder it was forgotten...