What if Royce lost to Gerard Gordeau in UFC 1?

[cross_trainer]

Let's say he is unable to take Gordeau down, and is defeated. How does the face of martial arts (and the development of mixed martial arts) change?

[cross_trainer]

The Gracies may or may not have tried again--judging from the popularity of the first UFC, it would have been a big moneymaker regardless. And they would have sent Rickson, which might have impacted the view of BJJ as a "small man's art" a bit.

Gordeau's success may have strengthened the interest in kickboxing and Kyokushin (the savate claim might not wash). The Gracies may win the next time out, but striking arts and takedown defense would have been more heavily emphasized in the beginning. Shamrock may not have had the same motivation to beat Gracie had the latter lost in the finals, so his individual tournament decisions may have changed. More strikers may have been encouraged to enter the competition, at least some of whom would have takedown training. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu would have still exploded, but it may not have been more important than shootfighting or judo as the basis of the ground game--one among many.

Fighters today would still be "mixed", but it may have been a different mixture. More Kyokushin, more shootfighters, fewer BJJ guys, and more striking-based.

[younghypnotiq]

i wanted gordeau to win.

[Beebs]

I think we would have seen a larger influence of the Japanese style of shootfighting, but eventually the brazilian fighters would have shown up somehow I imagine, my guess is a similar style would have developed, but we would be further behind on the timeline. We may have also seen the dominant period of almost pure wrestlers earlier and for a longer time.

[Amsterdam]

Well, CT is right, the Gracie's would have sent Rickson, and he'd have manhandled any of those early guys up until cross training became truly evident, but the view would be more on Rickson being a great JJ artist, less of BJJ being such an efficient fighting style.

Tell you what though, I've started training in BJJ recently, I'm enjoying it throughly, under the right context, it's probably the most efficient standard style are(non-hybrid) that I can think of.

[younghypnotiq]

how long do you think rickson would have been the champion for?

[Amsterdam]

how long do you think rickson would have been the champion for?

Well, Rickson's record of 400-0 is an ego trip and a line of shit. The guy is beyond arrogant, but even at that, he probably was the best JJ practicioner in straight JJ of all of the Gracie family and their history.

He's also quite a decent sort in person. Renzo Gracie adopted to MMA better than the rest, but Rickson spanks him in a straight BJJ match.

So I'd say Rickson would have blown everyone else out until MMA started to take form with some serious Cross Training, and even then, he'd have been a live element in certain matches.

[Dostoevsky]

Apparently they sent Royce because the family considered him not to be the best BJJ practitioner in the family, they sent one of their weaker family members to prove that no matter what, BJJ could triumph over all.

[Amsterdam]

Apparently they sent Royce because the family considered him not to be the best BJJ practitioner in the family, they sent one of their weaker family members to prove that no matter what, BJJ could triumph over all.

A fine idea, BJJ is everywhere and will continue to spread. Highly effective for female self defence in a variety of situations.

All it takes is a hand to hand combat mentality with BJJ to turn it from a simple martial art to a devastating lethal form of levarage quick kill fighting, same could go for catch wrestling and Judo the same.

I like it though, could be advanced on and made better all the same.

Royce did his job, I dont like him as a person, he was lucky to be selected as the test dummy against those poor examples early on, but he did his job, commands some respect.

[Dostoevsky]

Royce is an arrogant bastard......
The gracies were kind of punks back in Brazil, they would randomly start fights in the street or on the beach, and then school some guy to show how great fighters they were.

I think theres an infamous video, were Rickson just lunges and punches a guy at the beach and then......I think gets the guy in a submission and breaks his arm.

[cross_trainer]

Royce is an arrogant bastard......
The gracies were kind of punks back in Brazil, they would randomly start fights in the street or on the beach, and then school some guy to show how great fighters they were.

I think theres an infamous video, were Rickson just lunges and punches a guy at the beach and then......I think gets the guy in a submission and breaks his arm.
I think you needed a little of that to be successful in those days. It's no coincidence that many of the best fighters of the first UFC's--Gracie, Shamrock, Gordeau, Abbott--either had a history of brawling or their families/styles had a history of brawling. In the days before true MMA, streetfights and challenge matches were as "pressure tested" as you got.

[Amsterdam]

Royce is an arrogant bastard......
The gracies were kind of punks back in Brazil, they would randomly start fights in the street or on the beach, and then school some guy to show how great fighters they were.

I think theres an infamous video, were Rickson just lunges and punches a guy at the beach and then......I think gets the guy in a submission and breaks his arm.

A top notch striker with a great takedown D is going to paste anyone who tries that, too bad they weren't readily around at that time if that's the case...

Anyone who's highly skilled in anything who goes picking on random people deserves to have their face caved him.

That's bullshit.

[cross_trainer]

Royce is an arrogant bastard......
The gracies were kind of punks back in Brazil, they would randomly start fights in the street or on the beach, and then school some guy to show how great fighters they were.

I think theres an infamous video, were Rickson just lunges and punches a guy at the beach and then......I think gets the guy in a submission and breaks his arm.

I have seen claims that those fights were part of a law enforcement operation where the Brazilian police were using the Gracies to get dealers on beaches. Of course, they might have been making it all up...and regardless, the Gracies always had a sizeable chunk of thuggery.

[Amsterdam]

Truthfully CT, it's more realistic that Royce would have lost to Shamrock, than Gerard.

And in that relation, Beebs' post is in full truth.

[Strike]

I have seen claims that those fights were part of a law enforcement operation where the Brazilian police were using the Gracies to get dealers on beaches. Of course, they might have been making it all up...and regardless, the Gracies always had a sizeable chunk of thuggery.

That will definitely be made up. The dealers in Brazil are armed to the teeth, they have fucking hour long gun battles with the police and anyone trying to muscle out their trade by using martial arts would find themselves in a body bag pretty quickly.

[Beebs]

I really don't think that Rickson was ever a better MMA fighter than Royce, yes his Jiu Jitsu is better, but I think that wouldn't have really mattered in the early UFC's as Royce's groundwork was already good enough in relation to the other fighters that it would have been a case of diminishing returns with Rickson.

I feel Royce would be better able to deal with the early UFC fighters better than Rickson would have due to his heart, aggresion, and defense, also an intangiable that I can't quite find the right word for, maybe "intiative" or something along those lines. Rickson's takedowns and takedown defense were just flat out bad at times, definiately no better than Royces and significantly worse than Shamrock or Ichihara, and his striking and striking defense was even worse, clearly worse than that of Royces from what I've seen.

I think Pat smith might have been able to pull one out against Rickson, catching him off guard with his hands in that robotic stance, although I wouldn't favor him.

I really feel Rickson would have lost to Shamrock same for Ichihara, if they had it in their mind to keep it off the ground at all costs, theres really no way for Rickson to get either of them down, and they both, especially Ichihara would have battered him standing, I mean even Takada in the second fight was able to stay clinched up with Rickson for almost 10 minutes, cutting Rickson with a punch, hurting him with a knee, and then actually ending up with the Takedown before getting stupid and getting swept and subbed.

Funaki set the gameplan to follow, but was too confident in his groundgame, if he or the other fighters mentioned would have had an early sprawl and brawl type gameplan and really stuck to it with full commitment, Rickson would be pretty helpless.

I don't mean to insult Rickson, but Royce was much more impressive as an MMA fighter, however much less impressive he was as a pure jiu jitsu fighter, in the early UFC's than Rickson was against Takada and Funaki.

Rickson - Takada 2
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Rickson - Funaki
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[younghypnotiq]

rickson might have lost to the fighting preist to. lol. leopoldo or something. royce pretty much lost he couldnt fight after that

[Beebs]

rickson might have lost to the fighting preist to. lol. leopoldo or something. royce pretty much lost he couldnt fight after that

Kimo Leopoldo, and yea i agree, I didn't even think of him.

I see Ruas and Frye tearing Rickson apart, although Royce never fought them so its a bit off topic. I do feel that Rickson would have beat Severn though, as Severn's striking was just as bad and would have taken Rickson down.

[younghypnotiq]

yah in UFC 4 severen strikes where terrible if he had any common sense he would of owned gracie. he rid him for 17+ mins. if he just head butted or punched or learned some subs hed be good.

[younghypnotiq]

true. royce could barely take down that karate guy in ufc 4.

[Beebs]

Beebs I don't know where the fuck you're getting your info, but Rickson was one of the only Gracie's that actually had good wrestling to go with jiu-jitsu. He picked up and slammed Takada(I believe it was) in their match and owned him. Royce had shit takedowns, Rickson's were decent unless he was facing another wrestler.

I'm getting it from watching his MMA fights, not his grappling matches, or his training, but his real fights; his slam in the first Takada fight was after 3 minutes of nothing, then a terrible shot that Takada shrugged off and threw a knee, which Rickson caught, thats how he got the slam, once it was basically given to him he got off a good slam, but he didn't set it up with any sort of technique.

Royce was at least decent at taking down from the clinch, he got Kimo down that way, Rickson was not good at it at all.

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[theunderdog]

i wanted gordeau to win.


how old were you then?

[younghypnotiq]

2. i didnt see it until i was around 6 tho.

[theunderdog]

2. i didnt see it until i was around 6 tho.

wow. you've been exposed to ufc rather young. nice!!!!:good

[ufoalf]

2. i didnt see it until i was around 6 tho.

ahah ure so full of shit.

[younghypnotiq]

HOW THE FUCK AM I FULL OF SHIT? u fucking faggit my dad loved it and showed it to me u fucking faggit.

[ufoalf]

HOW THE FUCK AM I FULL OF SHIT? u fucking faggit my dad loved it and showed it to me u fucking faggit.

Calm down there buddy. Let me ask you this, have you seen the UFC 1 once and than just stopped or you were kinda following the WHOLE thing since you were 6? Cause I've seen early UFC when i was really young too but it didn't really mean anything to me then.

[younghypnotiq]

well i always loved UFC but i usually just liked the highlights, but i saw every UFC.

[ufoalf]

See, the reason i was asking was because i was wondering, if you have been watching UFC for so long... why would you be asking or saying this?

topic(when did UFC)... start getting people that actually where MMA practicioners? what number UFC?


..........

yah inew that i was jsut watching the first 4 which i got on DVD and then i watched the most recent and was like how the fuck did it go from that to that. also the new rules are gay. lol

[younghypnotiq]

yah. ok... i was the watching the first 4 with freainds and i was watchng UFC 72. big deal? i was wondering how it went from that to that. i dont remember when MMA practicioners started coming in.

[cross_trainer]

I really don't think that Rickson was ever a better MMA fighter than Royce, yes his Jiu Jitsu is better, but I think that wouldn't have really mattered in the early UFC's as Royce's groundwork was already good enough in relation to the other fighters that it would have been a case of diminishing returns with Rickson.

I feel Royce would be better able to deal with the early UFC fighters better than Rickson would have due to his heart, aggresion, and defense, also an intangiable that I can't quite find the right word for, maybe "intiative" or something along those lines. Rickson's takedowns and takedown defense were just flat out bad at times, definiately no better than Royces and significantly worse than Shamrock or Ichihara, and his striking and striking defense was even worse, clearly worse than that of Royces from what I've seen.

I think Pat smith might have been able to pull one out against Rickson, catching him off guard with his hands in that robotic stance, although I wouldn't favor him.

I really feel Rickson would have lost to Shamrock same for Ichihara, if they had it in their mind to keep it off the ground at all costs, theres really no way for Rickson to get either of them down, and they both, especially Ichihara would have battered him standing, I mean even Takada in the second fight was able to stay clinched up with Rickson for almost 10 minutes, cutting Rickson with a punch, hurting him with a knee, and then actually ending up with the Takedown before getting stupid and getting swept and subbed.

Funaki set the gameplan to follow, but was too confident in his groundgame, if he or the other fighters mentioned would have had an early sprawl and brawl type gameplan and really stuck to it with full commitment, Rickson would be pretty helpless.

I don't mean to insult Rickson, but Royce was much more impressive as an MMA fighter, however much less impressive he was as a pure jiu jitsu fighter, in the early UFC's than Rickson was against Takada and Funaki.

Rickson - Takada 2
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Rickson - Funaki
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"Initiative" is one way to put it--and you're right, it's almost indefinable. "Energy" might be another way to describe it. Royce was a more active fighter.

Rickson seemed content to stomp your feet, knee you a bit, and clinch you for hours until he could get you down with economical energy expenditure. I recall an interview where he indicated that his style was built for a long match. Royce would be all over you in a moment, frantically trying to get you down like he did against Kimo.