Joe Frazier and Ken Norton were stablemates, sparring partners and close friends

[Marciano Frazier]

When the subject of Joe Frazier "avoiding" opponents has been brought up by a couple of persistent detractors on these forums, I have repeated variants of this particular point countless times. Those on the other side of the debate- most notably Mendoza, who contributes a lot of good information and livelihood to the forums, but needs to address his opponents' arguments if he wants to be taken seriously in a debate- has failed entirely to even acknowledge that I have said anything, every single time I have said it. As a result, I am now devoting an entire thread to this point in hopes that he will at least acknowledge its existence. If anyone holding the view that Frazier "avoided" Norton replies on this thread, LET HIM RESPOND TO THIS INFORMATION:

Ken Norton was Joe Frazier's sparring partner during his title reign, and those who saw them spar reportedly had no doubt that, were the two ever to meet in a real fight, Frazier would murder Norton. From 1973 onward, the two were stablemates under Eddie Futch. It would have been a silly move for their management to put their two top guys in the ring together and guarantee a loss for one of them without any particular pressing reason- not to mention awkward; who would get the usual cornermen, and who wouldn't? Furthermore, Frazier and Norton were good friends and had a personal aversion to fighting one another.
Frazier writes in his autobiography, "Smokin' Joe," on page 80, in the second paragraph:
See, I don't lollygag when I train. The sparring partners who were there- Charley Polite, Ken Norton,Ray Anderson, and Moeman Williams- knew that when we got in the ring I'd put serious licks on them.
According to "Ken Norton: the Black Hercules," by Rich Thomas:
Both Norton and Frazier were trained by the great Eddie Futch, and Norton had been sparring with Frazier regularly.
According to the CBZ article, "Bouts that never were: Joe Frazier vs. Ken Norton":
Another obstacle to Ken's meeting Smokin' Joe was the issue of their close friendship and Joe's stated contention that he wouldn't fight Norton under any conditions.

IN LIGHT OF THIS INFORMATION, IT IS ILLOGICAL AND UNWARRANTED FOR ONE TO CLAIM THAT THIS FIGHT DID NOT MATERIALIZE BECAUSE FRAZIER'S CAMP (which was also Norton's camp anyway) WAS AFRAID TO PIT THEIR MAN AGAINST DANGEROUS PUNCHERS (besides which, Norton wasn't really all that murderous a puncher anyway). Furthermore, as I will state AGAIN for posterity, this position is made EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS by the fact that that same camp OPTED to pit their man against GEORGE FOREMAN- TWICE- the first time with his world heavyweight championship on the line.

[flamengo]

Clay and Ellis were trained Angelo Dundee... Ellis managed by Dundee also. Both men faught numerous exhibitions, and Clay won the N.A.B.F H/W Tilte (vacant) from Ellis KO 12 in 1971.

Why not Frazier/Norton... it offered a fantastic outcome..

Clearly the above post has put the question to bed, although, it reamains the missing link reagrding Foreman, Norton, Ali and Frazier.

[McGrain]

There is no doubt that Joe would have been able to get up for this one, were it made.

I wonder would Ken have been able to focus? He would have needed to...

Nice post.

[Mendoza]

Boxing history is full of stable mates fighting each other in a prize ring. Don King does it all the time.

Frazier was a fighter. He once said, I don't care if your my own brother, if you ring the ring I'm taking you out "

[My dinner with Conteh]

A bloke who says "That's how I like to see a man taken out, like a warrior" when his son was blown away by Tyson doesn't seem the type of geezer that would turn this one down at all.

[Bokaj]

A bloke who says "That's how I like to see a man taken out, like a warrior" when his son was blown away by Tyson doesn't seem the type of geezer that would turn this one down at all.

I suppose his kids didn't come crying to him when they scrubbed their knees...

[My dinner with Conteh]

Boxing history is full of stable mates fighting each other in a prize ring. Don King does it all the time.

Frazier was a fighter. He once said, I don't care if your my own brother, if you ring the ring I'm taking you out "



Brown vs Blocker was sad to see, mates since they were kids, basically forced to fight to make decent money (which they probably saw about 8% of). And buried a few fights down on one of King's 'Tyson' bills. I didn't enjoy that at all.

[McGrain]

A bloke who says "That's how I like to see a man taken out, like a warrior" when his son was blown away by Tyson doesn't seem the type of geezer that would turn this one down at all.

I think that would depend upon Ken. If Frazier got well attatched to his sparing partners. He liked to beat them up, as you know. But there are stories that he would feel bad about this and lose money to them at dice, on purpose, make sure they stayed around for dinner, shit like that.

If Norton wanted to fight Joe, I think that he would take the attitude you are hinting at.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think this contest is an issue really. If Frazier was still champ in 74 then they would likely have fought, but no reason when both were in position for title shots. Futch would have kept Norton away from Joe anyway, just like he wouldn't let Kenny fight Foreman.

[Chaney]

I suppose his kids didn't come crying to him when they scrubbed their knees...In his autobiography, Joe says he caught his usually very well mannered son bullying some kid.

His punishment: not a spanking but taken to the gym and forced to box against Smokin' Joe to taunts of "See, you don't like it when somebody bigger than you hits back, do ya?" The kid was terrified, whimpering "Please daddy, I didn't mean it!"

Its fair to say that if Smokin' Joe was your dad, you'd be very well behaved...

[My dinner with Conteh]

His punishment: not a spanking but taken to the gym and forced to box against Smokin' Joe to taunts of "See, you don't like it when somebody bigger than you hits back, do ya?" The kid was terrified, whimpering "Please daddy, I didn't mean it!".


That was the Tyson fight wasn't it? :hey

[Chaney]

That was the Tyson fight wasn't it? :heyPoor Marvis was much too nice to be a fighter. I think he is a preacher, now?

[PowerPuncher]

Boxing history is full of stable mates fighting each other in a prize ring. Don King does it all the time.

Frazier was a fighter. He once said, I don't care if your my own brother, if you ring the ring I'm taking you out "

Do you blame Vitali for ducking Wlad?

[PowerPuncher]

In his autobiography, Joe says he caught his usually very well mannered son bullying some kid.

His punishment: not a spanking but taken to the gym and forced to box against Smokin' Joe to taunts of "See, you don't like it when somebody bigger than you hits back, do ya?" The kid was terrified, whimpering "Please daddy, I didn't mean it!"

Its fair to say that if Smokin' Joe was your dad, you'd be very well behaved...

Classic :lol:

[sthomas]

Frazier and Norton should have fought around 74'-75'when rebounding from Foreman. They could have made some good cash. I don't buy Frazier saying he wouldn't fight Norton cause they were buddies, it just doesn't match his personality. Far less intense guys as Frazier have fought their friends. The trainer thing could have been worked out.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I don't think it ever made sense, even in 74-75. Throughout most of Ali's second reign they were ranked 2 and 3 in the world, so they were always in line for a third fight with Muhammad.

[mcvey]

Boxing history is full of stable mates fighting each other in a prize ring. Don King does it all the time.

Frazier was a fighter. He once said, I don't care if your my own brother, if you ring the ring I'm taking you out "
Canzoneri ,v Ambers and many others .

[mr. magoo]

I think more pertinantely than Frazier and Norton being from the same stable, is the question, was Norton truly a top rater during Joe's reign? I don't think Norton really put himself on the map, until he upset Muhammad Ali. Fairly close to this time, Frazier was lacing up to fight Foreman.

[ThinBlack]

Ken Norton said in his book ,that contrary to popular opinion, the reason they didn't fight wasn't because they were friends, but that the money wasn't right.

[MagnaNasakki]

I wouldn't fight my brothers, but I'd fight a friend. Any pro would. We do ALL THE TIME: The fight fraternity is very close.

Anybody saying so and so wouldn't fight because they were buddies, is talking out of their ass. If the money was right, even best buddies go to war against one another.

However, I believe Norton when he said that the money was never right, and in fact, neither was the trajectory of history: Norton didn't deserve a title shot till he beat Ali, and it was right around then that Joe lost the title to Foreman.

Frazier never ducked Norton, nor vice versa. Sometimes, shit just doesn't line up.