Lennox Lewis is overrated

[Zakman]

This one always gets the discussion going......:D

[Bananas]

He still beat VK.

[Scorpion]

I agree most people overrate him a bit or some a lot.

[Jennifer Love Hewitt]

He's under rated.

[brooklyn1550]

He may be overrated by many, but I have seen him underrated by some too.

[seb melmoth]

His resume is impressive.

[Lostmykeys]

No doubt Golota would have KO'd Lewis in the 7th if he had VK in his corner.

[Zakman]

Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.

Oh, and then there's that little matter of getting starched twice in the early rounds by ham and eggers - the only HW champ that's happened to when he held a belt. :nod

[Lostmykeys]

No doubt Lennox Lewis could knock the tread off a tank with that right hand of his if he were "motivated."

The right hand of a prime motivated Lewis has nothing on the overall skills and natural ability of a Prime Motivated Golota.

[rluevano]

Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.

Oh, and then there's that little matter of getting starched twice in the early rounds by ham and eggers - the only HW champ that's happened to when he held a belt. :nod

Bowe didn't fight Lewis at all. He'd already been koed by him with headgear on so he opted to throw his belt in the trash instead.

[Relentless]

holyfield is overrated

[nervousxtian]

I'd say Lennox is both overrated by a lot of people and underrated by a lot of people.

He was a decent champ and a somewhat strong time in the division. I always thought he was a cunt when he became champ with his attitude, but he had some skills, just never was a "really" exciting guy to watch most of the time, he got real lazy at times.

[Zakman]

Bowe didn't fight Lewis at all. He'd already been koed by him with headgear on so he opted to throw his belt in the trash instead.

Oh, puh-leez. When will you kids learn that amateur boxing has NO bearing on the pros. None. Oh, and neither does sparing, btw! I love that one too!:patsch

Bowe ditched that belt because they were trying to make him fight Lewis before the fight would have been financially attractive enough to make it worthwhile. Oh, and he was all set to fight him in early '95, but then Lewis went and got starched by McCall.:hey

[ChampionsForever]

Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.

Oh, and then there's that little matter of getting starched twice in the early rounds by ham and eggers - the only HW champ that's happened to when he held a belt. :nod

You rate Holyfield above Tyson and Lewis?? Remove the Tyson wins and nobody would rate him over Lewis or Tyson.....you could remove any one guy from either Tyson or Lewis and it wouldnt harm there resume' as much as Holys. And time and time again you bring up the 2 losses on Lewis's record where admitedly he had an "off" night yet you rate Evander over him and dont seem to consider the 8 "off" nights he had :huh:huh.

[Zakman]

Wrong, Bowe was afraid of Lewis.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

You guys repeat the Lewis camp propaganda like it's fact. What rubbish. Like boxing fans can read a fighter's man.

It's all irrelevant anyway - fact is, Lewis didn't face him, and he faced faded versions of Holyfield and Tyson. Holyfield, on the other hand, faced a prime Bowe, and still formitable Tyson. And he was never KTFO by second raters!:-(:lol:

[ChampionsForever]

Unless Evander regains 2 belts (one isnt enough considring how shit the currents are) then he is in no way better than Lennox.

[The Italarican]

I'm telling you Zak: I watched a video with Riddick Bowe flat-out saying that he had no interest in fighting Lewis back then. I wish I could remember the show/video because it wasn't that long ago.

[ChampionsForever]

I'm telling you Zak: I watched a video with Riddick Bowe flat-out saying that he had no interest in fighting Lewis back then. I wish I could remember the show/video because it wasn't that long ago.

He knows Bowe avoided him he just likes winding people up :roll:.

[brownpimp88]

This one always gets the discussion going......:D
who isn't overrated?

[Zakman]

You rate Holyfield above Tyson and Lewis?? Remove the Tyson wins and nobody would rate him over Lewis or Tyson.....you could remove any one guy from either Tyson or Lewis and it wouldnt harm there resume' as much as Holys. And time and time again you bring up the 2 losses on Lewis's record where admitedly he had an "off" night yet you rate Evander over him and dont seem to consider the 8 "off" nights he had :huh:huh.

Holyfield has lost, but several of those are by disputed decision (Moorer! Ruiz! :patsch), and most were late in his career, after his skills had faded. He was beaten only twice in his prime, and that was by the near-great Riddick Bowe. It's not like he was taken out early twice by B level fighters in the heart of his career, when he held the title. AND he fought the top guys in the era when it MATTERED.

In terms of accomplishments, he's not only greater than Tyson and Lewis, he's CLEARLY greater.:yep

[AJAX]

your out of control, Lewis avenged his only 2 loses which were flukes and should have retired undefeated.And should have beat Holyfield both times.And Holyfield doesn't get a free pass beacause he was a "faded" version it's not Lewis's fault that he fought at a high level till 38. That's a part of greatness.

[Sonny's jab]

****

[Amsterdam]

And Zak, while Tyson is not better than Holyfield or Lewis in the 90's, early 00's era, and anyone who says it would be moronic, his run in the 80's still blows out what Lewis did in the 90's just by the sheer, brutal domination over a variety of nearly equivalent crop of fighters. I give Lewis the slight edge in comp. over Tyson, but many of the modern fans don't remember how good a guy like a prime Tucker was either, easily superior to one of Lewis' best wins in Golota and on par with Mercer...

1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Lewis


If you had to rank the 3 solely, Lewis comes in third everytime.

[IntentionalButt]

Unless Evander regains 2 belts (one isnt enough considring how shit the currents are) then he is in no way better than Lennox.

:lol:

[ChampionsForever]

Holyfield has lost, but several of those are by disputed decision (Moorer! Ruiz! :patsch), and most were late in his career, after his skills had faded. He was beaten only twice in his prime, and that was by the near-great Riddick Bowe. It's not like he was taken out early twice by B level fighters in the heart of his career, when he held the title. AND he fought the top guys in the era when it MATTERED.

In terms of accomplishments, he's not only greater than Tyson and Lewis, he's CLEARLY greater.:yep

Hes clearly greater....how so?? by barely beating an underprepared Riddick Bowe who was on about Jerry Quarrys level and beating an out of prime Mike Tyson??

Youve explained how you think Lewis was worse now explain how Holy was greater, hes best run as champ was 3 defenses and two of them were against 40 something former greats.....hes everbodies blood and guts warrior but he had no consistancy and was probably the dirtiest fighter who ever won the title.

[ChampionsForever]

And Zak, while Tyson is not better than Holyfield or Lewis in the 90's, early 00's era, and anyone who says it would be moronic, his run in the 80's still blows out what Lewis did in the 90's just by the sheer, brutal domination over a variety of nearly equivalent crop of fighters. I give Lewis the slight edge in comp. over Tyson, but many of the modern fans don't remember how good a guy like a prime Tucker was either, easily superior to one of Lewis' best wins in Golota and on par with Mercer...

1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Lewis


If you had to rank the 3 solely, Lewis comes in third everytime.

Have you ever dissagreed with Zakman?? what does hes ass taste like?

[Sonny's jab]

***

[Amsterdam]

Have you ever dissagreed with Zakman?? what does hes ass taste like?

Great minds think alike.:lol:

I was actually glorifying you're favourite Tyson right there, clearly showing him as the best of the 80's and certainly above Lennox Lewis in an all time ranking.

[ChampionsForever]

Holyfield has lost, but several of those are by disputed decision (Moorer! Ruiz! :patsch), and most were late in his career, after his skills had faded. He was beaten only twice in his prime, and that was by the near-great Riddick Bowe. It's not like he was taken out early twice by B level fighters in the heart of his career, when he held the title. AND he fought the top guys in the era when it MATTERED.

In terms of accomplishments, he's not only greater than Tyson and Lewis, he's CLEARLY greater.:yep

Also "he was only beaten twice in hes prime" well guess who else was?? Lennox Lewis!!! and one of them was by the solid contender Oliver Mccall who is in no way a bum or a "ham and egger" hell hes giving the guys of today a run for there money, boy will your face be red if he regains a belt which is not by any means out of the question. The Rachman KO was a fight Lennox was on hes way to winning before getting hit by a monster punch....it happens theres no shame in it just look back in boxing history and you will realise that this isnt unheard of and is nothing to hold over a man who avenged the loss in even more brutal fashion. :deal:good

[ChampionsForever]

Great minds think alike.:lol:

I was actually glorifying you're favourite Tyson right there, clearly showing him as the best of the 80's and certainly above Lennox Lewis in an all time ranking.

I know I dont dissagree with your points (I dont agree but ther your own opinions) I just like the way you two always agree on everything and seeing as im arguing with Zakman I thought id do the heroic thing and pick a fight with you while you wasnt expecting it aswell :twisted:

[Amsterdam]

Holyfield was beaten twice, but he wasn't laid out early, there is a difference. Between in competitive fights that go to the cards, one of which was highly controversial against top contenders is quite different than being starched early by what was THEN considered to be B level contenders.

Bowe and Moorer at the time were considered top class contenders, McCall was considered a tune up and Rahman is same old glass jawed Rahman.

In any event, had Bowe or Moorer KOed Evander early, and I don't mean "stopped", I mean KOed, there would be a different consideration on the quality of those two losses, just like with Lewis.

[C.J.Rock]

:happy Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.

Oh, and then there's that little matter of getting starched twice in the early rounds by ham and eggers - the only HW champ that's happened to when he held a belt. :nod

Lewis is the best heavyweight champion since Ali. Lennox had to beg plead & even SUE to get Holyfield in the ring and when he finally succeeded we had Eugenia Williams pull her famous stunt.
Same thing with Tyson, King paid Lennox $4 mil to step aside and let Tyson beat Holyfield first with Lennox getting next shot, they thought it was an easier fight. Instead Evander upset the applecart KO'd Tyson then Lewis was ducked again
As for Big Blubber Bowe , he wanted no part of Lewis the Ko in the olympic final Lennox had over him plus the way he destroyed Razor Ruddock scared Bowe shitless he took to the hills even gave up the WBC belt rather than have to fight him. To me Riddick Bowe was NEVER HW champ he failed to see the contract through
Lennox Lewis BEAT every man that climbed in the ring with him as a pro give him the respect he deserves:bbb :scaredas: :hi: :bbb :boxing2

[Amsterdam]

I know I dont dissagree with your points (I dont agree but ther your own opinions) I just like the way you two always agree on everything and seeing as im arguing with Zakman I thought id do the heroic thing and pick a fight with you while you wasnt expecting it aswell :twisted:

Well yes, I do disagree with Zakman sometimes, but generally he's on target with his boxing views and if you'd ever head to the classic forum, many posters have the same set of views, it's just experience...

I've been watching boxing for 10 years, he's been watching for 30 years, I know that you Champs are a newer fan and that's a great thing...

When you reach a point to where you've seen the highest greatness in this sport, you look at the rest on a rigorous scale in comparison to the greatnes WHEN you are ranking and discussing statistics, the chin is no different... after all of the great chins we have seen in this sport over time, how can anyone claim Lennox had a "good" chin is beyond me.

At any rate, there is no need to get mad on here, unless you're dealing with Blocky.:lol:

[robert ungurean]

overated in my bk.

[C.J.Rock]

Oh, puh-leez. When will you kids learn that amateur boxing has NO bearing on the pros. None. Oh, and neither does sparing, btw! I love that one too!:patsch

Bowe ditched that belt because they were trying to make him fight Lewis before the fight would have been financially attractive enough to make it worthwhile. Oh, and he was all set to fight him in early '95, but then Lewis went and got starched by McCall.:hey

The above is total bullshit its laughable Bowe was scared shitless of Lennox Lewis:admin :admin

[ChampionsForever]

Holyfield was beaten twice, but he wasn't laid out early, there is a difference. Between in competitive fights that go to the cards, one of which was highly controversial against top contenders is quite different than being starched early by what was THEN considered to be B level contenders.

Bowe and Moorer at the time were considered top class contenders, McCall was considered a tune up and Rahman is same old glass jawed Rahman.

In any event, had Bowe or Moorer KOed Evander early, and I don't mean "stopped", I mean KOed, there would be a different consideration on the quality of those two losses, just like with Lewis.

What does it matter if they were "then" considered B level?? Im not disputing the Rachman loss which is lone on hes record for the worse guy he ever lost against but even then Rachman went on to regain a title and is still a contender today, he's no bum by any means and judging by the lack of abuse you give Mccall its clear you dont think hes a Ham and Egger either (wtf is a ham and egger??).

So Rachman and Mccall on anybodies resume today would be considered a solid win yet when Lewis fights them there "B level" :patsch they cant all be on Alis level you know. And as for the way in which Lewis lost....well shit it happens he let hes guard down and got caught by big punches by 220lb+ men and it was lights out, thats nothing to dispute the mans greatness at worse its to dispute the mans chin. Almost every retired fighter will argue the point its how a guy reacts AFTER he loses that determines how good a fighter he is.....well how could Lewis have reacted any better??

[djrock247]

So is Joe Louis

[KillerInstinct]

Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield..all 3 great fighters. Lewis got starched twice..so the hell what? He came back like a champion and won both the rematches convincingly. It doesn't matter what you say to Zakman, he will always hate Lewis for tooling Holyfield. In terms of resume, Holyfield probably has the better resume, but you can't blame Lewis for not fighting people like Riddick Bowe. For God's sakes. if Bowe actually fought someone worth while after vacating the belt (instead of fighting Lewis), it wouldn't be so bad. Instead, he fights MICHAEL DOKES AND JESSE FERGUSON!! How blind do you have to be to see that he was obviously ducking Lewis. Was it because of the amateur fight? Maybe, maybe not..only Bowe truly knows why he didn't want to fight Lewis. I personally think Bowe was intimidated by Lewis..I have no idea why because I think Bowe had the tools to beat Lewis..but it makes no sense to me that he vacated his title. And Zakman, what the hell are you talking about..Bowe vacated his title because the money wasn't right? Are you friggin' serious? The money would of been MORE than "alright", why the hell would he wait 2 years?

To conclude, Lewis can be both underrated and overrated. However, you can not deny the fact that he has beaten everyone he has faced in the ring. At some times convincing, others not so much. However, you can't always look good in fights. Every fighter will eventually have an off-night in their careers, it happens. Is that the reason why Lewis lost..could be, I personally think he just got caught against McCall and was too overconfident vs Rahman.

[Max Molyneux]

Zakman underrates fighters because of chin and over judges on Chins though.:deal

[ChampionsForever]

Zakman underrates fighters because of chin and over judges on Chins though.:deal

Bigtime, unless ofcourse they conflict with eachother like in Mccall case, he cant give him the credit he deserves because he beat Lewis and that means he has to rate him as a bum to make Lewis look bad :lol:

[Amsterdam]

Bigtime, unless ofcourse they conflict with eachother like in Mccall case, he cant give him the credit he deserves because he beat Lewis and that means he has to rate him as a bum to make Lewis look bad :lol:

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

[AJAX]

Actually Zakman is starting to remind me of Radar, he twists facts to support any arguement for Holyfield but ignores or disregards facts for Lewis depending on how it suits his arguement.

[Zakman]

And Zak, while Tyson is not better than Holyfield or Lewis in the 90's, early 00's era, and anyone who says it would be moronic, his run in the 80's still blows out what Lewis did in the 90's just by the sheer, brutal domination over a variety of nearly equivalent crop of fighters. I give Lewis the slight edge in comp. over Tyson, but many of the modern fans don't remember how good a guy like a prime Tucker was either, easily superior to one of Lewis' best wins in Golota and on par with Mercer...

1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Lewis


If you had to rank the 3 solely, Lewis comes in third everytime.

Exactly. If you look at the era - including the late 80s - and evaluate all the positives and negatives in each fighter's career, it seems astounding to me that folks would rank them any other way. That people don't is exactly WHY Lewis is so grossly overrated by boxing fans today.

[ChampionsForever]

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

You contradict yourself, first you say you have been following the sport for 10 years and your wise to it and I have alot to learn ect.....then you come out with some bullshit like this that you would expect from a damn noob :lol:. If he had such a bad jaw why did he fight EVERY significant power puncher in the division?? and yet you claim that Khans bad jaw (which is a guess) is justified by the matchmaking he has been getting i.e only fighting light punching fighters :huh.

So your saying that Khan and hes management know he has a bad jaw (even tho its never been even nearly proved) so they are matchmaking him against feather fists yet Lewis and hes management even AFTER getting sparked and having guys like Steward in his corner and being able to call all the shots and fight whoever he damn wants then goes and fights guys like Tyson, Tua, Mercer, VK, Morrison, Ruddock and Briggs??

Lewis had an above average chin, not iron like Holy or Tysons but decent enough.

[AJAX]

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.


To describe Lewis's chin as glass is just ignorant. so I guess the Greatest of the 90's Holifield couldn't break the glass in 2 attempts could he?

[C.J.Rock]

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

This is bullshit and you know it Mike Tyson, Vitaly Klitschko and David Tua , all noted for their power landed heavy shots on Lewis chin he never moved. the KO losses Lennox suffered were really of his own making lack of preparation & overconfidence He sure made up for both didnt he
:bbb :bbb :bbb :admin :tong

[El Bombasto]

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

I guess Lewis just got lucky when he fought those guys, huh?

[Zakman]

The fact is, when Lewis hit the deck, the fight was OVER. All of the excuses, all of the smokecreens, don't change that.

Neither does it change the fact that he didn't fight ANY of the other top guys in his era when they were even near their best, and he didn't fight Bowe at ALL.

Those are the facts. And they are facts that Lewis fans love to downplay, ignore, or make excuses for when they constantly overrate this guy. Best since Ali?? :lol: Hell, he isn't even the best of the era!! :patsch

[Amsterdam]

Look at how Lewis fans jump on me for stating a fact.:lol:

It tends to hit home pretty well doesn't it guys, especially when it's true.:lol:

[AJAX]

your right, Lewis doesn't get free passes for his losses, Holyfield get's free passes because his "prime" was for a shorter period

[Amsterdam]

You contradict yourself, first you say you have been following the sport for 10 years and your wise to it and I have alot to learn ect.....then you come out with some bullshit like this that you would expect from a damn noob :lol:. If he had such a bad jaw why did he fight EVERY significant power puncher in the division?? and yet you claim that Khans bad jaw (which is a guess) is justified by the matchmaking he has been getting i.e only fighting light punching fighters :huh.

So your saying that Khan and hes management know he has a bad jaw (even tho its never been even nearly proved) so they are matchmaking him against feather fists yet Lewis and hes management even AFTER getting sparked and having guys like Steward in his corner and being able to call all the shots and fight whoever he damn wants then goes and fights guys like Tyson, Tua, Mercer, VK, Morrison, Ruddock and Briggs??

Lewis had an above average chin, not iron like Holy or Tysons but decent enough.

It's called having a great defence, which Lewis had. The fact that Lewis beat a variety of good power punchers clearly, or decimated some, while not getting KTFO is a show of his inherrant class.

He was a tremendously skilled fighter, I enjoyed watching him, but we are solely talking about his punch resistance in this conversation between you and I.

[AJAX]

A guy that can't win a triliogy with John Ruiz does not make greatest of his era to me.

[Doppleganger]

Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he beat Holyfield twice (ok one was a draw but it should have been a win). Holyfield couldn't even hold onto the HW title for any length of time.

Didn't Tyson pay $4million step-aside money to Lewis so he didn't have to fight him?

Why exactly didn't Lewis fight Bowe? Please enlighten us Zakman.

Oh, and then there's that little matter of getting starched twice in the early rounds by ham and eggers - the only HW champ that's happened to when he held a belt. :nod
/yawn

[Doppleganger]

Lewis had a glass chin, especially in comparison to Tyson and Holyfield, you can't deny that.

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

Utter Bollocks. You don't fight for 14 years, fighting the best HWs of your era (minus one who ducked him) and only get floored twice if you have a glass jaw. Either that or Lewis is the HW version of Pernell Whitaker, Winky Wright and Willie Pep all rolled into one. :p

Lewis was down fewer times in his career than Ali or Holyfield. That is a fact.

[Amsterdam]

Utter Bollocks. You don't fight for 14 years, fighting the best HWs of your era (minus one who ducked him) and only get floored twice if you have a glass jaw. Either that or Lewis is the HW version of Pernell Whitaker, Winky Wright and Willie Pep all rolled into one. :p

Lewis was down fewer times in his career than Ali or Holyfield. That is a fact.

There is a difference between going down, and being put out, I'd suggest you learn the difference.

Ali and Holyfield have never been KTFO by a single punch like Lewis.

[Zakman]

A guy that can't win a triliogy with John Ruiz does not make greatest of his era to me.

Oh, please - not only was Holyfield past his prime, but he should have CLEARLY gotten the decision in the third fight. The second fight was an outrage, with Ruiz faking a "low blow" to avoid being counted out.

Holyfield had already established himself as the greatest of the era before he even fought Ruiz. That people even debate this shows how underrated Evander is, and how overrated Lewis is.

[melo22]

some people need to hop off holyfields jock. I can't even see how you have him in the same class. Lewis beat him twice. twice. Holyfield has two claims to fame, greatest cruiserweight ever, and beating tyson. never dominated, made bowe look a hell of alot better then he actually was, same with moorer.
Tyson, how can u have him higher than Lewis? Lewis is anywhere from 6-10 on the greatest hwts of all time.

[Doppleganger]

There is a difference between going down, and being put out, I'd suggest you learn the difference.

Ali and Holyfield have never been KTFO by a single punch like Lewis.
Why should I learn the difference? You want me to start taking punches to find out? :p

I don't believe Lewis has a better chin than Ali or Holy, that would be nonsense. But it ain't glass either.

You think Lewis is a HW defensive master? You must if you believe him to have a glass jaw.

[Amsterdam]

Why should I learn the difference? You want me to start taking punches to find out? :p

I don't believe Lewis has a better chin than Ali or Holy, that would be nonsense. But it ain't glass either.

You think Lewis is a HW defensive master? You must if you believe him to have a glass jaw.

I consider Lewis as having one of the best defences at HW ever, if that's what you mean. His defence was great -

The ability to slip punches well, block well with timing, size up distance, and to lessen the impact of shots when they hit by subtle movements.

He was a great fighter, nobody denies that.

[ChampionsForever]

It's called having a great defence, which Lewis had. The fact that Lewis beat a variety of good power punchers clearly, or decimated some, while not getting KTFO is a show of his inherrant class.

He was a tremendously skilled fighter, I enjoyed watching him, but we are solely talking about his punch resistance in this conversation between you and I.

Well he had a good enough chin to take on all comers and be the longest reigning champ of the three, but seeing as it didnt matter how good hes chin was because of hes defense then bringing it up is pointless.....lets bring up the fact that holyfield didnt have one punch KO power shall we?? or that he roided hes way to the top using hes head as a 3rd fist along the way :tired

[LennoxGOAT]

This one always gets the discussion going......:D


Let it go....he owned Holyfield TWICE and no matter how many threads you create or anti-Lewis remarks you make, this will never change. Lewis owned Holyfield TWICE and this will never change. Period. End of story. Holyfield was the second best fighter of his era.

[ChampionsForever]

Oh, please - not only was Holyfield past his prime, but he should have CLEARLY gotten the decision in the third fight. The second fight was an outrage, with Ruiz faking a "low blow" to avoid being counted out.

Holyfield had already established himself as the greatest of the era before he even fought Ruiz. That people even debate this shows how underrated Evander is, and how overrated Lewis is.

Bert Cooper had Holy in a fucking mess and nearly stopped him, Lewis would have wrecked Cooper. And all the headbutts in the world couldnt help him when Lewis outclassed him twice :yep, Lewis=greater than Holyfeild :deal

[The Italarican]

Oh, please - not only was Holyfield past his prime, but he should have CLEARLY gotten the decision in the third fight. The second fight was an outrage, with Ruiz faking a "low blow" to avoid being counted out.

Holyfield had already established himself as the greatest of the era before he even fought Ruiz. That people even debate this shows how underrated Evander is, and how overrated Lewis is.

Ruiz should have gottem the nod in the first fight.
Ruiz won the second.
The third was a draw, such a dreadful fight that it was one where truly there were no winners.

In reality, Ruiz should have been 2-0-1 against Holyfield.

[Doppleganger]

I consider Lewis as having one of the best defences at HW ever, if that's what you mean. His defence was great -

The ability to slip punches well, block well with timing, size up distance, and to lessen the impact of shots when they hit by subtle movements.

He was a great fighter, nobody denies that. IMO he was good defensively when he wanted to be and when he could control the fight with his jab. When he couldn't he took punches. I mean he took some hefty shots from Bruno, Tua, Klitschko, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield and even Tyson and didn't look like going down. All those guys can punch (yes even Holyfield). If his chin was glass he would have been floored/KO'd in those fights.

[Scorpion]

Some boxers are so pathetic that you have to add motivated with them.

[Zakman]

some people need to hop off holyfields jock. I can't even see how you have him in the same class. Lewis beat him twice. twice. Holyfield has two claims to fame, greatest cruiserweight ever, and beating tyson. never dominated, made bowe look a hell of alot better then he actually was, same with moorer.
Tyson, how can u have him higher than Lewis? Lewis is anywhere from 6-10 on the greatest hwts of all time.

CLASSIC example of how overrated Lewis is by some boxing fans today - and how underrated Holyfield is! I KNEW I'd get a few of these.:nut

Delusional is putting it mildly!:yep

[McGrain]

I consider Lewis as having one of the best defences at HW ever, if that's what you mean.


I absolutley agree with this.

Lewis was not a great offensive infighter, he had one great weapon and that was it.

But defensively he was straight out of top drawer. Leaning, smothering,turning, pushing, all the stuff that never gets a fighter onto YouTube, he had in spades, best of the modern era.

On the outside,for a big man, he was wonderfullly competent defensively, i'd rate him as the best superheavy ever. People complain about him being reticint, to timid, this is what they mean! Haters can't have it both ways, he wasn't aggressive enough AND he wasn't good defensively, how could he win the title?

I've never seen him have one of his counters countered either. In that respect he is the equal of Ali.

[McGrain]

Lewis had a glass chin

He has the weakest chin of the fighters who are on my top ten heavyweight list. But to call his chin "glass" is pushing it a bit.

tap Lewis right and the fight is over.


This is true of almost any fighter, especially at HW. Hollyfield has a better chin than Lewis but Lewis has a better chin than most. I've SEEN him eat absolutley massive shots from some of the biggest hitting heavyweights of all time without taking a knee. So have you.

[McGrain]

CLASSIC example of how overrated Lewis is by some boxing fans today - and how underrated Holyfield is! I KNEW I'd get a few of these.:nut

Delusional is putting it mildly!:yep


Hi Zak.

Where do you have these two fighters on your Heavyweight list.

I have Lewis at #5 and Hollyfield at #8

[Zakman]

Hi Zak.

Where do you have these two fighters on your Heavyweight list.

I have Lewis at #5 and Hollyfield at #8

Holyfield - #7
Lewis - #13

Oh, and just to spice up the debate a little bit.....Tyson - #11:D

[McGrain]

Oh, and just to spice up the debate a little bit.....Tyson - #11:D


I got Tyson at 11 too.

Tell you what, you are the most informed guy I know who has Lewis outside his top ten.

[Amsterdam]

I got Tyson at 11 too.

Tell you what, you are the most informed guy I know who has Lewis outside his top ten.

I have Lewis out of the top 10.:yep

[McGrain]

I have Lewis out of the top 10.:yep

Yeah, I knew that;)

[Amsterdam]

I absolutley agree with this.

Lewis was not a great offensive infighter, he had one great weapon and that was it.

But defensively he was straight out of top drawer. Leaning, smothering,turning, pushing, all the stuff that never gets a fighter onto YouTube, he had in spades, best of the modern era.

On the outside,for a big man, he was wonderfullly competent defensively, i'd rate him as the best superheavy ever. People complain about him being reticint, to timid, this is what they mean! Haters can't have it both ways, he wasn't aggressive enough AND he wasn't good defensively, how could he win the title?

I've never seen him have one of his counters countered either. In that respect he is the equal of Ali.

Exactly, he definitely was a very impressive defencive fighter and an ATG at that.

I have him at #12 personally, as you already know that I downplay some of the oldest of older era fighters abilities compared to a post-60's, I do add in "era/era" comparisons and especially accomplishments for their set time period, so the guys that I'd say get starched if just matched straight up still take a high position with me for what they did for their time.

Dempsey ranks over Lewis in this regard, and if we are talking an "era/era" comparison of the matchup between Dempsey and Lewis, then Dempsey blasts Lewis in a round or two.

So it's not hard to rank Lewis out of the top 10 in reality, he's quite overrated in my opinion, even being a fantastic fighter who I did enjoy.

I am also not a "Lewis hater", I enjoyed most of his fights and he provided some thrills, I just do not like the overrating of Lennox Lewis and the fanboys of Lennox are especially ridiculous, some even listing him as "number 3" and H2H "number 1", give me a break!

[Shotgun]

While you can say Holyfield wouldn't have lost to Rahman or McCall, Lewis never would've lost to a 12 round decision to a glass jawed light heavyweight like Holyfield did, and Lewis was never totally dominated over 12 rounds like Holyfield was in Bowe I

Bowe never beat anyone of note before or after Holyfield, I don't see why people think he was "great". He was only a great fighter on one night, the first Holyfield fight. He had no defense and his outside game was adequate at best. Bowe was the beneficiary of matching up perfectly against Holyfield. Bowe would've been outboxed badly by Larry Holmes and would've been KTFO by Lewis and Tyson

[Shotgun]

Tyson and Holyfield could eat anything at their best, tap Lewis right and the fight is over.

But Tyson was outboxed and dominated round by round and eventually KTFO by a gatekeeper/fringe contender during his prime, that would never happen to Lewis

Holyfield was outboxed by glass jawed Michael Moorer, Moorer wouldn't have lasted 6 rounds against Lewis. And Holyfield was dominated overall in his trilogy with Bowe, and Bowe never did anything noteworthy outside of beating Holyfield. The myth that Bowe was great only exists because he matched up very favorably against Holyfield

[McGrain]

But Tyson was outboxed and dominated round by round and eventually KTFO by a gatekeeper/fringe contender during his prime,

Fair point

That's well put too, "prime" not "peak", excellent post.

[Zakman]

I got Tyson at 11 too.

Tell you what, you are the most informed guy I know who has Lewis outside his top ten.

Thanks!! I suppose I should be "informed" after following the sport for 30 years, reading boxing mags religiously, etc. I followed the careers of Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis from their beginnings, so I have to contextual understandings that are probably only available to those who lived through the era and followed the sport.

At the TIME, Lewis was regarded, correctly, as the lesser of these fighters, no doubt. It is only since he has retired that I have seen this explosion in fans grossly overrating him as they do now, and the underrating of Holyfield and to a lesser degree Tyson that seems to go with it.

I think that this stems from Lewis being the last great champ before the present mediocre era - which only makes him look greater in retrospect. Also, modern fans seeing today's used-up versions of Holyfield and Tyson has also caused them to be underrated. In their primes, both of these guys beat Lewis, and rather easily. Tyson, particularly, would have annihilated him.

[Amsterdam]

Tyson was not KTFO, he was brutally beaten down and stopped against Buster, Lewis was straight KTFO by Rahman and KTFO by McCall, they were not BEATDOWNS, they were simple singular shots that put him out.

Not even comparable.

[McGrain]

Also, modern fans seeing today's used-up versions of Holyfield and Tyson has also caused them to be underrated. In their primes, both of these guys beat Lewis, and rather easily. Tyson, particularly, would have annihilated him.

I disagree with you entirely. Although Hollyfield would ALWAYS cause Lewis problems, I feel the physical disadvantages were to great. Where Tyson is concerned I feel Lewis would not only have beaten him, but beaten him pretty easily. Peak for peak.

That's boxing I guess.

[Shotgun]

Tyson was not KTFO, he was brutally beaten down and stopped against Buster, Lewis was straight KTFO by Rahman and KTFO by McCall, they were not BEATDOWNS, they were simple singular shots that put him out.

Not even comparable.
So you're saying it's better to be outboxed and dominated and then knocked out by a mediocre fringe contender type? How so?

If Lewis was "KTFO" by McCall then Tyson was KTFO by Douglas. And to me the fluky nature of Lewis's losses is less suspect than Tyson's loss to Douglas. Tyson was dominated by a fringe contender, Lewis was never totally outclassed in the ring like Tyson was that night

Lewis was never outclassed the way that Holyfield was by Bowe

Every boxer has their weaknesses. Lewis's was his chin and at times his complacency/motivation. Holyfield's was a lack of power and size. Tyson's was mental toughness and dedication. So you can say Holyfield and Tyson would never be KO'd by McCall or Rahman which is true, but Lewis would never be outclassed round after round in his prime by a fringe contender and then KO'd like Tyson was, or lose a 12 round decision to a glass jawed former light heavyweight like Holyfield, or be thoroughly dominated by a one dimensional boxer with no defense like Holyfield was against Bowe

[ChampionsForever]

I have Lewis out of the top 10.:yep

Id wager that your top ten is the exact copy of Zakmans top 10.......

[Dostoevsky]

Zakman hates Lewis for the simple fact he's not American.If Lewis was American, Zakman would love him.

Lewis beat the best, granted he didn't beat tyson in his prime, but take into account that lewis was older.
Lewis was very dominant, very athletic, very big puncher and very intelligent.
His chin wasn't all that but it wasn't that bad.......did he get KTFO twice yes,but both those two pounches would have knocked out 99.9% of the human population out.

People say that if you tapped his chin he would go down? excuse me?
Is that how he with stood that war with Mercer and got hit cleanly many times....also when he got battered from pillar to post my Vitali in the 2nd round but still didn't fall down?
Lewis' chin wasn't great but to call it completly glass is ludicrous,those punches that he got knocked out with would have knocked anyone out,espescially the Rahman one,Rahman wound that punch all the way back and put his entire body into it.

Lewis proved that both the Mccall and Rahman fights were flukes and lucky punches,he proved that he was a better boxer than both of them. He was never outboxed in the ring.

Lewis was dominant,strong,big puncher, athletic and a very good technical fighter.
He beat everyone who he had to beat, beat everyone he ever faced and beat everyone who was put up against him.

You can't ask any less from a fighter and champion.

[ChampionsForever]

Tyson was not KTFO, he was brutally beaten down and stopped against Buster, Lewis was straight KTFO by Rahman and KTFO by McCall, they were not BEATDOWNS, they were simple singular shots that put him out.

Not even comparable.

Everybody knows im a Tyson fan, but getting beat down brutally and then losing by KO is worse than just getting KO'd by one shot. Other than proving your chins decent losing a sustained beatdown is worse on far more levels so why do you keep bringing it up like its the other way around?

[ChampionsForever]

#1Tyson
#2Lewis
#3Holyfield :deal:bbb

[The Italarican]

Thanks!! I suppose I should be "informed" after following the sport for 30 years, reading boxing mags religiously, etc. I followed the careers of Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis from their beginnings, so I have to contextual understandings that are probably only available to those who lived through the era and followed the sport.

At the TIME, Lewis was regarded, correctly, as the lesser of these fighters, no doubt. It is only since he has retired that I have seen this explosion in fans grossly overrating him as they do now, and the underrating of Holyfield and to a lesser degree Tyson that seems to go with it.

I think that this stems from Lewis being the last great champ before the present mediocre era - which only makes him look greater in retrospect. Also, modern fans seeing today's used-up versions of Holyfield and Tyson has also caused them to be underrated. In their primes, both of these guys beat Lewis, and rather easily. Tyson, particularly, would have annihilated him.

What time are you referring to? If it was the mid-late 90s, let's not forget that this was a period when Lewis was seriously overlooked and people were still waiting for Tyson to return to his dominant self. Holyfield was the solid favorite over Lewis in their first fight. At that time, many people thought Lewis could not beat even that version of Holyfield, and others were still grossly overrating Tyson.

You probably are seeing people overrate Lewis now, but you're also seeing him also getting deserved respect and recognition that he did not have in the 1990s.

[Amsterdam]

Id wager that your top ten is the exact copy of Zakmans top 10.......

I've never seen his top 10 actually, you want mine?

[ChampionsForever]

I've never seen his top 10 actually, you want mine?

Go on then for shits and giggles :good Ive always wondered where you rank Rachman.

[Amsterdam]

My top 15 list is not just on accomplishments alone, but a mix of accomplishments, era/era comparison, H2H comparison(which includes era/era consideration) and overall legacy:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson
11. Jack Johnson
12. Lennox Lewis
13. James J. Jeffries
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. Ezzard Charles

Now where is the insanity here? This is a good list.

[Dostoevsky]

Sonny Liston had one title defence?
And got knocked out with one punch by Ali,if its a stain on Lewis' record to be knocked out by 1 punch why not on Liston's?

[Amsterdam]

Sonny Liston had one title defence?
And got knocked out with one punch by Ali,if its a stain on Lewis' record to be knocked out by 1 punch why not on Liston's?

Liston is a whopping 3 places above Lewis, what is the big deal?

The fight against Ali was obviously a set up as well, he went down, was conscious but didn't get up for whatever reason, he was also a very troubled man and if you knew his history, you'd understand.

I feel that Liston is more proven than Lewis by a bit, he was heavily avoided at his peak but did end up carving a bloody swatch through a pretty decent division and beat multiple styles, not to mention brutally sparking the reigning champion twice, only to lose to what many consider the best ever.

He also hung around afterwards and beat some okay fighters when he was well past his prime, including ruining the career of a decent fighter in Martin.

Liston is also better H2H and Liston/Lewis peak to peak would result in a Liston KO.

Why is it hard to rank Liston over Lewis? It's very easy to do so.

[Amsterdam]

you should put mike tyson at six.

go back and see that absolute rampage that he went on through the division. Watch the films of his absolute terrifying speed and power.

Tyson beats every heavyweights theres ever been so far.

His rampage was one of the best ever, but H2H and longevity he never had and he never faced his ultimate stylistic nemesis, which makes me put him a spot under Liston. Liston and Foreman would have KOed Tyson, I don't doubt this.

The 2nd career really detracts as well, had he retired he'd probably had been a top 5 for most people....

[Dostoevsky]

Liston is a whopping 3 places above Lewis, what is the big deal?

The fight against Ali was obviously a set up as well, he went down, was conscious but didn't get up for whatever reason, he was also a very troubled man and if you knew his history, you'd understand.

I feel that Liston is more proven than Lewis by a bit, he was heavily avoided at his peak but did end up carving a bloody swatch through a pretty decent division and beat multiple styles, not to mention brutally sparking the reigning champion twice, only to lose to what many consider the best ever.

He also hung around afterwards and beat some okay fighters when he was well past his prime, including ruining the career of a decent fighter in Martin.

Liston is also better H2H and Liston/Lewis peak to peak would result in a Liston KO.

Why is it hard to rank Liston over Lewis? It's very easy to do so.

Well the fact that Lewis beat better competition and had more title defences than liston.
Also the Phantom punch is completley unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable!
There is no conclusive proof that that was set up. Untill concrete evidence is brought to life proving that that fight was thrown it will be considered a legitimate knock out.

[McGrain]

Sonny Liston had one title defence?
And got knocked out with one punch by Ali,if its a stain on Lewis' record to be knocked out by 1 punch why not on Liston's?


The one punch KO was a 100% dive, whatever the reason.

Liston took a lot of scalps as challanger.

He had unbelievable tools.

I have him at 3.

[Amsterdam]

The one punch KO was a 100% dive, whatever the reason.

Liston took a lot of scalps as challanger.

He had unbelievable tools.

I have him at 3.

Realistically if Liston had been recieved well by the public and given all the correct matches at his peak, he would have been a top 5 for me, Liston was a great fighter who was an unfortunate case.

Without a doubt he blows Lewis out peak to peak.:yep

[McGrain]

Without a doubt he blows Lewis out peak to peak.:yep

For two such great fighters i'd say the split hair would be strength. Can Lewis manhandle Liston? If so, Lennox will win. If not, Liston will win.

I'd bet on Liston, but it would need to be pretty quick IMO.

[Amsterdam]

For two such great fighters i'd say the split hair would be strength. Can Lewis manhandle Liston? If so, Lennox will win. If not, Liston will win.

I'd bet on Liston, but it would need to be pretty quick IMO.

Lewis flat out couldn't take Liston's best shots, I assure you that, and Liston was quite accurate and quite controlling. Ever see Lennox fight someone with a great jab who could use it to control the fight?

No, and it would give him immense issue's. Not only was Liston a better boxer, he was a better puncher and was much more durable at his best.

Liston KO 5 Lennox.

[ChampionsForever]

My top 15 list is not just on accomplishments alone, but a mix of accomplishments, era/era comparison, H2H comparison(which includes era/era consideration) and overall legacy:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson
11. Jack Johnson
12. Lennox Lewis
13. James J. Jeffries
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. Ezzard Charles

Now where is the insanity here? This is a good list.

Ill hold my hands up, thats a good list. Personally I have Ali at #1 and Tyson is in my top 5 but to each his own. Liston doesnt make the cut in my list, other than Patterson and Ali he didnt even fight let alone beat any other great fighters.

[Amsterdam]

Ill hold my hands up, thats a good list. Personally I have Ali at #1 and Tyson is in my top 5 but to each his own. Liston doesnt make the cut in my list, other than Patterson and Ali he didnt even fight let alone beat any other great fighters.

Liston's wins over Patterson were as athoritative as it gets, it helps some with the "lack of a great fighter" on his resume. The fact remains however that he brutally dominated a variety of GOOD fighters and even a few ELITE fighters at his time, more so than most ATG HW's even do to their B and A- level competition....

And he did it to a wide variety of styles.... he outslugged sluggers, starched swarmers and outboxed skilled boxers... and his competition is very underrated and on par with Tyson's run in the 80's.

Lewis would not have dominated like Liston did and you must remember that Liston was mismanaged and heavily avoided, he'd have been a lock top 5 had he gotten the chance, trust me.

Liston is barely in the top 10 for me because of the reasons you state above, but he is in for the reasons I stated here, H2H comparison, he's a menace and a top 3, where as Lennox is not even a top 10 on a H2H comparison for me, as many defeat him peak/peak in my opinion and Liston smokes virtually all except for Ali, Louis and Holyfield.

Liston for me beats Marciano, Tyson, Holmes, Charles, Walcott, Lewis, both Klit's, Foreman, Frazier etc.

So to disclude such a fine example of a HW out of the top 10 would be a travesty.

[ChampionsForever]

Liston's wins over Patterson were as athoritative as it gets, it helps some with the "lack of a great fighter" on his resume. The fact remains however that he brutally dominated a variety of GOOD fighters and even a few ELITE fighters at his time, more so than most ATG HW's even do to their B and A- level competition....

And he did it to a wide variety of styles.... he outslugged sluggers, starched swarmers and outboxed skilled boxers... and his competition is very underrated and on par with Tyson's run in the 80's.

Lewis would not have dominated like Liston did and you must remember that Liston was mismanaged and heavily avoided, he'd have been a lock top 5 had he gotten the chance, trust me.

Liston is barely in the top 10 for me because of the reasons you state above, but he is in for the reasons I stated here, H2H comparison, he's a menace and a top 3, where as Lennox is not even a top 10 on a H2H comparison for me, as many defeat him peak/peak in my opinion and Liston smokes virtually all except for Ali, Louis and Holyfield.

Liston for me beats Marciano, Tyson, Holmes, Charles, Walcott, Lewis, both Klit's, Foreman, Frazier etc.

So to disclude such a fine example of a HW out of the top 10 would be a travesty.

Dont you think you overrate Liston and Holyfield a bit?? I mean its a travesty as you put it to say Liston fought and beat better guys than Lewis did (if you think im wrong them please enlighten me), but then you think Holyfields got hes number?? I mean Holy is a warrior sure he had an iron chin, speed and power in his day....but to beat Liston you have to dance circles around him and out box him. This isny Holyfields style, he would go in head first and get drawn into a war with him and you think Liston would fall short where Bowe succeeded?? Explain how you think Holyfield would beat Liston.

By the way I think The real deal actually beats Liston but I dont rate him the way you do.

[McGrain]

Lewis flat out couldn't take Liston's best shots, I assure you that

No fighter in history could.

Lennox's either.


Ever see Lennox fight someone with a great jab who could use it to control the fight?

Bruno may be the most underated jabber in modern heavyweight history, i'd go so far as to call him a great jabber - and he gave Lewis (pre-peak) a torrid time. But that was the "grow up" fight for Lewis and the jab STILL wasn't the deciding factor.

Not only was Liston a better boxer, he was a better puncher and was much more durable at his best.

I agree with you that he was more durable. Better boxer...debatable. Certainly his footwork wasn't anything like as good, but it probably shouldn't matter here.

Liston KO 5 Lennox.

Quite possibly, my bet would be between 3 and 5 Liston. But if it got past 7 it's 50/50.

[Lance_Uppercut]

I could really give two shits if some fanboys on some message board think's he's overrated or the best ever. When CREDIBLE sources start saying he the best ever or not that good, wake me up.

[ChampionsForever]

I could really give two shits if some fanboys on some message board think's he's overrated or the best ever. When CREDIBLE sources start saying he the best ever or not that good, wake me up.:yep:good

[Amsterdam]

Sure, let's look at their opposition completely unbiased.

Lewis -

Mercer - Mercer being a tough chinned, hot and cold fighter but solid, great win.

Briggs - Briggs is a joke.

Golota - Mentally weak fighter who was highly skilled, but could be swarmed by anyone, even shitty Brewster.

Tucker - Good win, though Tyson got Tucker at his prime and more clearly.

Tua - Good win.

Ruddock - Good win, but where did Ruddock really go other than being a good opponent for the elite?

Morrison - Overrated, exciting glass chinned fighter, but good win considering Lewis disposed of him properly.

Vit Klit - One of the best wins on his record, but everyone knows the story and let's not rehash it.

Holyfield - Holyfield was past it here, lacking his famous reflexes, one was controversial, one was clear. This however was a good win.

Tyson - Totally shot, this win counts for very little.


Liston -

Patterson x 2 - This was the only ATG on Liston's record, but Patterson was in his prime and disposed of twice in round 1, to give an example of how good of a win this was for the time, this was Tyson TKO 1 Spinks twice, a definitive performance.

Machen - Machen is an underrated boxer who was a tough opponent for a variety of guys, Liston beat this guy clear as day, 10 rounds to 2.

Cleveland Williams x 2 - Williams, at this time and for a bit after the Liston fights, was a ranked top 5 contender who scored some good wins.

The best part is that this wasn't competitive, Liston dominated and blew him out on two occasions early.

Zora Foley - Skilled power puncher, was later stopped by Ali but took most of the early rounds off of him, hung around as a top 10 contender for a long time and has some good wins. Liston KO 3.

This easily bests the Morrison win for Lewis.

Roy Harris - Ranked contender who lasted 13 hard rounds with Patterson, Liston TKO 1, ruined what was left of the guys career.

Nino Valdes - Ranked veteran, Liston KO 3.

Chuck Wepner - Everyone knows this famous fringe contender, Liston TKO 10 at the end of his career.

How is it not comparable? Just because modern fans don't recognise or study the guys that Liston demolished doesn't mean they aren't similiar to many of Lewis' opponents.

Liston was heavily avoided, he never got the chance to add up some more wins, but his dominate wins over the fighters that I listed up top are very valid wins.

[Calroid]

Yes Lewis did beat a past prime Holyfield and a shot Tyson. However Tyson's prime occured pre jail. His peak was around 1988 when he fought Spinks. He was past his prime when he was released. Holyfield didn't fight Tyson until 1996, eight years after the Spinks fight. That was not the prime Tyson that Holyfield beat. If Lewis doesn't get credit for beating a past prime Holyfield, why does Holyfield get credit for beating a past prime Tyson?

[Calroid]

Yeah prime for prime I would take Liston over Lewis.

[Drexl]

This one always gets the discussion going......:D

So in other words, every man he ever faced was even MORE overrated.

Especially your boy Holyfield, who was ranked above Lennox the first time they fought (Ring #1 and #2 respectively)

He must have been waaaaay overrated.:deal

[Drexl]

Sure, let's look at their opposition completely unbiased.

Lewis -

Briggs - Briggs is a joke.

Golota - Mentally weak fighter who was highly skilled, but could be swarmed by anyone, even shitty Brewster.

Tucker - Good win, though Tyson got Tucker at his prime and more clearly.

Ruddock - Good win, but where did Ruddock really go other than being a good opponent for the elite?

Morrison - Overrated, exciting glass chinned fighter, but good win considering Lewis disposed of him properly.

Holyfield - Holyfield was past it here, lacking his famous reflexes, one was controversial, one was clear. This however was a good win.

Tyson - Totally shot, this win counts for very little.


Liston -

Machen - Machen is an underrated boxer who was a tough opponent for a variety of guys, Liston beat this guy clear as day, 10 rounds to 2.

Cleveland Williams x 2 - Williams, at this time and for a bit after the Liston fights, was a ranked top 5 contender who scored some good wins.

Roy Harris - Ranked contender who lasted 13 hard rounds with Patterson, Liston TKO 1, ruined what was left of the guys career.

Nino Valdes - Ranked veteran, Liston KO 3.


Yeah, REALLY unbiased! :lol::lol::lol::lol:


You feel the need to find a negative for these Lewis opponents from elsewhere in their careers, but all Valdes gets is "Ranked veteran".

Talk about selective details!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[Doppleganger]

He has the weakest chin of the fighters who are on my top ten heavyweight list. But to call his chin "glass" is pushing it a bit.




This is true of almost any fighter, especially at HW. Hollyfield has a better chin than Lewis but Lewis has a better chin than most. I've SEEN him eat absolutley massive shots from some of the biggest hitting heavyweights of all time without taking a knee. So have you.

McGrain, just wanted to thank you for being a good, objective poster since you joined. The above is a good example of this. Keep up the good work mate. :good

IMO the worst types of poster are guys like Zakman and Amsterdam, guys who should know better. By both maintaining that Lewis has a glass jaw it kills stone dead any credibility they have for any debates about Lewis. It's impossible to have a sensible conversation with Zakman who basically ignores any counter-points I put to him. For example, he has Holyfield at #7 and for what? 1 win and 1 DQ in favour against a faded Mike Tyson? Holyfield was one of my favourite fighters but he doesn't belong at #7.

[Bigcat]

Lewis never avoided a single fighter throughout his whole career.....

[McGrain]

McGrain, just wanted to thank you for being a good, objective poster since you joined. The above is a good example of this. Keep up the good work mate. :good

Thanks for the kind words.

For example, he has Holyfield at #7 and for what? 1 win and 1 DQ in favour against a faded Mike Tyson? Holyfield was one of my favourite fighters but he doesn't belong at #7.

I have him at 8!

I hear you. Amsterdam and Zakman do underestimate Lewis IMO, BUT they mount reasonable defences and I usually learn somethng when talking to them or reading them. So that's OK. And if everybody thought Lewis was top 10, who would we get to correct, right?

:D

[thesandman]

So let me get this straight, please.

It's more acceptable to take a dive, and throw away the HW championship (not to mention the supposed substance in the eyes in the first fight) - then to get KO'd trying to actually fight for it.

Is that what people are saying here?

I would say that if those 2 occurences are supposed to be true - but "Sonny was messed up, so that's OK" - then clearly it calls into doubt many of Sonnys other fights - wins or not - as being fixes.

Just want to be clear here. It's better to take an early dive, and throw a HW title fight, than to be KO'd fighting for it.

If that's peoples logic, then I must have moved to bizarro world.

And if the people here believe that - I would hope those guys never, ever rag on a guy for stopping a fight on this stool. Those guys have given their all, and just feel like they have nothing left.

So if a dive doesn't dent your legacy - then surely quitting shouldn't?


and if it's not a dive, then Liston has a shaky chin, yes? Because I doubt that version of Ali could KO Lewis like that.

[Dekkers]

Holyfield has lost, but several of those are by disputed decision (Moorer! Ruiz! :patsch), and most were late in his career, after his skills had faded. He was beaten only twice in his prime, and that was by the near-great Riddick Bowe. It's not like he was taken out early twice by B level fighters in the heart of his career, when he held the title. AND he fought the top guys in the era when it MATTERED.

In terms of accomplishments, he's not only greater than Tyson and Lewis, he's CLEARLY greater.:yep

Holyfield fought the most idiotic fight i've ever seen a top heavy fight in Bowe v Holy 1, that win says more about Holys' complete stupidity than it says anything about Bowe's greatness. Plenty of heavies would have beaten Holy that night with the idiotic strategy he had of throwing left hook, after left hook, and barely using his jab or varying his attack.

[Dekkers]

Yeah, REALLY unbiased! :lol::lol::lol::lol:


You feel the need to find a negative for these Lewis opponents from elsewhere in their careers, but all Valdes gets is "Ranked veteran".

Talk about selective details!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Amsterdam finds it impossible to be unbiased about fighters he dislikes, he's said it himself in the past :yep

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, REALLY unbiased! :lol::lol::lol::lol:


You feel the need to find a negative for these Lewis opponents from elsewhere in their careers, but all Valdes gets is "Ranked veteran".

Talk about selective details!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

To a new fan, who hasn't studied up on the older guys, I had to explain where those guys stood at the time. I even qouted good wins for Lewis and only took some negatives because if Champs just went over to Boxrec without knowing anything about those guys, he may not realise that Morrison/Williams are about equal in terms of win, never did I claim Liston's resume was superior....

Modern guys just tend to overrate the fighters they have seen.

I just said that Liston's resume is COMPARABLE and was giving an argument, why do Lennox fans take everything as an attack on him? I am not even a Lennox hater, I was a fan of his when he was active.

[Amsterdam]

Amsterdam finds it impossible to be unbiased about fighters he dislikes, he's said it himself in the past :yep

I'm working on this though, trust me. I seek to be unbiased in my views and I am getting much better.:lol:

I've been on target with many things in boxing discussion, but you're right, the things that I am 100% correct on are things that I am more so impartial to, or like the fighters in question, though as I have said, I really have nothing against Lennox... not like I do against Margarito etc.

[Zakman]

Id wager that your top ten is the exact copy of Zakmans top 10.......
Nope.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Frazier
11. Tyson
12. Jeffries
13. Lewis
14. Walcott
15. Charles

[Zakman]

Oh, and again - the rating for the post Holmes Era:

1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Lewis
4. Bowe
5. Moorer
6. Mercer
7. Morrison
8. Old Foreman
9. Ruddock
10. Douglas

[Archie_Moore]

LL is 1 of only 2 HW to beat every man they fought. I don't think anybody could say his opposition was soft either. :good

[Duende]

I haven't read any replies, but I would just like to say that Lewis isn't overrated. He's an alltime great and we should be appreciative that we had a great champ like that in our time. And his alleged china chin would make his career even more impressive.

[McGrain]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano



You'v mistakenly put Marciano at number 6

[Amsterdam]

Oh, and again - the rating for the post Holmes Era:

1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Lewis
4. Bowe
5. Moorer
6. Mercer
7. Morrison
8. Old Foreman
9. Ruddock
10. Douglas

No Rahman and McCall?:lol:

[Fighting Weight]

LL is 1 of only 2 HW to beat every man they fought. I don't think anybody could say his opposition was soft either. :good

Yep but wait for Zakman to start his spin cycle on that one....:nut

[Amsterdam]

You'v mistakenly put Marciano at number 6

Let's see your top 15 McGrain.

[thesandman]

No Rahman and McCall?:lol:

No bites on the fact that diving in a fight is more acceptable than being KO'd?

[McGrain]

Let's see your top 15 McGrain.


1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Liston
4) Johnson
5) Lewis
6) Jeffries
7) Frazier
8) Hollyfield
9) Holmes
10) Foreman
11) Tyson
12) Dempsey
13) Marciano
14) Wills
15) Scmeling

As you requested, sir.

[Amsterdam]

Interesting list, but a solid one that a case can be made for, except for the Lewis high rating that is.:yep

I've never seen Johnson so high, but I remember when you first joined that we got into the debate of Louis/Johnson and that I said Louis would own over Johnson... which is completely predictable coming from me.

[Zakman]

No bites on the fact that diving in a fight is more acceptable than being KO'd?

For the record, I don't think it WAS a "dive" - at least not in the traditional sense of the term. I do think Liston basically quit after getting knocked down - but I do think he was hit with a legitimate punch.

Is it worse to quit than get completely KTFO twice? I dunno. I think you also have to consider that it was basically at the end of Liston's career as a top level fighter - he was not really at the top of his game. Liston was one of those guys who won the title and seemed to go straight downhill. But his pre-title career is where he really shines.

[Shotgun]

In my opinion Holyfield was never consistent enough to be held above Lewis. He never defended his title more than 3 times. Lewis gets a lot of crap for his losses to Rahman and McCall, but Holyfield also lost his titles to a pair of opponents who never did anything noteworthy at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield, with Bowe and Moorer.

Indeed, Holyfield's resume outside of the Tyson fights is not very impressive. He never successfully defended a title more than 3 times.

He won the belts from Buster Douglas, who alongside Hasim Rahman is probably the worst undisputed heavyweight champ of all time. His first 3 defenses were against a pair of men well into their 40's and a glass jawed gatekeeper type. He lost then lost badly to Bowe, who again never did anything remarkable at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield. He beat Bowe in a rematch and immediately lost to Michael Moorer, a talented former light heavyweight but who at heavyweight has proven repeatedly that he has a glass jaw.

His best moments came against Tyson, of course, who he decisively beat twice. For the record I would pick Holyfield to beat Tyson at any point in their careers based on style matchups, I don't think Tyson has the mental toughness or discipline to beat Holyfield. He avenged his loss against Moorer, had a ho hum gimme against Vaughn Bean and then lost to Lewis in the famous "draw", then lost to Lewis again which for all intents and purposes was his last gasp.

Holyfield never cleaned out or dominated the division. His career at heavyweight was far too up and down and inconsistent for me to put him above Lewis. You can talk about Lewis's losses but at no point in his career would Lewis ever lose to Moorer or Ruiz even well past his prime, neither of them would last 6 rounds with him. At no point in his career was Lewis ever completely dominated the way Holyfield was in the first Bowe fight. The pendulum swings both ways, and Lewis had greater consistency than Holyfield

Also, for some reason Holyfield backers always bring up the Bowe fights like they're a positive for Holyfield. I don't see why. Bowe never did anything impressive in his whole career outside of beating Holyfield. The only other legitimate top tier boxer Bowe ever went against was Golota who pummeled him twice. Bowe dominated the trilogy overall, his two wins were emphatic including one by stoppage, while Holyfield's win was sandwiched between losses and very narrow not, and arguably affected by the fan man incident. Not coincidentally, Bowe was out of shape and in the worst physical condition of any of the trilogy fights in the one Holyfield won

[Fighting Weight]

Interesting list, but a solid one that a case can be made for, except for the Lewis high rating that is.:yep

I've never seen Johnson so high, but I remember when you first joined that we got into the debate of Louis/Johnson and that I said Louis would own over Johnson... which is completely predictable coming from me.

Marciano is too low on that list too, otherwise not a bad effort :good

[thesandman]

Shotgun, I won't quote your post, but I agree entirely.

I think it's also fair to say that Tyson was VASTLY over rated post prison.

Have a look at his actual record post prison before the Holy fight, and it's pathetic really. Bruno the only name, and he was so petrified before the fight (based on facing a decent Tyson), that Mike could have had mattresses on his hands that night, and still beaten Bruno.

[Fighting Weight]

In my opinion Holyfield was never consistent enough to be held above Lewis. He never defended his title more than 3 times. Lewis gets a lot of crap for his losses to Rahman and McCall, but Holyfield also lost his titles to a pair of opponents who never did anything noteworthy at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield, with Bowe and Moorer.

Indeed, Holyfield's resume outside of the Tyson fights is not very impressive. He never successfully defended a title more than 3 times.

He won the belts from Buster Douglas, who alongside Hasim Rahman is probably the worst undisputed heavyweight champ of all time. His first 3 defenses were against a pair of men well into their 40's and a glass jawed gatekeeper type. He lost then lost badly to Bowe, who again never did anything remarkable at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield. He beat Bowe in a rematch and immediately lost to Michael Moorer, a talented former light heavyweight but who at heavyweight has proven repeatedly that he has a glass jaw.

His best moments came against Tyson, of course, who he decisively beat twice. For the record I would pick Holyfield to beat Tyson at any point in their careers based on style matchups, I don't think Tyson has the mental toughness or discipline to beat Holyfield. He avenged his loss against Moorer, had a ho hum gimme against Vaughn Bean and then lost to Lewis in the famous "draw", then lost to Lewis again which for all intents and purposes was his last gasp.

Holyfield never cleaned out or dominated the division. His career at heavyweight was far too up and down and inconsistent for me to put him above Lewis. You can talk about Lewis's losses but at no point in his career would Lewis ever lose to Moorer or Ruiz even well past his prime, neither of them would last 6 rounds with him. At no point in his career was Lewis ever completely dominated the way Holyfield was in the first Bowe fight. The pendulum swings both ways, and Lewis had greater consistency than Holyfield

Also, for some reason Holyfield backers always bring up the Bowe fights like they're a positive for Holyfield. I don't see why. Bowe never did anything impressive in his whole career outside of beating Holyfield. The only other legitimate top tier boxer Bowe ever went against was Golota who pummeled him twice. Bowe dominated the trilogy overall, his two wins were emphatic including one by stoppage, while Holyfield's win was sandwiched between losses and very narrow not, and arguably affected by the fan man incident. Not coincidentally, Bowe was out of shape and in the worst physical condition of any of the trilogy fights in the one Holyfield won

Respect to that, good post.

Although I do feel that Bowe if he'd had more discipline would have been a pretty dominant champ. All that money he earnt from the Holy fights bought a lot of burgers and KFC's though unfortunately.

[Dekkers]

Sure, let's look at their opposition completely unbiased.

Lewis -

Mercer - Mercer being a tough chinned, hot and cold fighter but solid, great win.
True, credit to Lewis though Mercer was running hot that night, the ring was small and Lewis showed a bit of infighting ability, a decent chin and defence

Briggs - Briggs is a joke.
He's a joke now, Briggs came into that fight highly motivated and in his prime, he took inhuman punishment and showed tremendous heart. His performance was no joke.

Golota - Mentally weak fighter who was highly skilled, but could be swarmed by anyone, even shitty Brewster.
He beat him after the two Bowe fights, Lewis wasn't favourite to win this one.

Tucker - Good win, though Tyson got Tucker at his prime and more clearly.
True but Tyson never put Tucker on the canvas either.

Tua - Good win.
Yes, pretty good, took some of Tuas leather as well.

Ruddock - Good win, but where did Ruddock really go other than being a good opponent for the elite?
Eh, that's rewriting history a bit, Ruddock was favourite out of the four unification tournament fighters. Impressive win if we're comparing it to how the Tyson v Ruddock fights went.

Morrison - Overrated, exciting glass chinned fighter, but good win considering Lewis disposed of him properly.
Imo, Morrison was never the same after Mercer.

Vit Klit - One of the best wins on his record, but everyone knows the story and let's not rehash it.
I don't really see it as a particularly great win, Vitali pushed Lewis on his worst night, even Rahman was able to do better against a slightly better Lewis. Vitali has a thin resume for being so highly rated, atleast Morrison beat a fighter worth mentioning.

Holyfield - Holyfield was past it here, lacking his famous reflexes, one was controversial, one was clear. This however was a good win.
I've seen Holyfield put in worse performances in his career than the ones he put into for these fights, partucularly the first Bowe fight which Riddick gets so much credit for. Physically Holy was past his prime, but he carried a heavier punch at this point, and was definitely smarter (i'm sure Lewis would have had an easy night if all Holy did was throw left hook after left hook).

Tyson - Totally shot, this win counts for very little.
Tyson was still beating some top 30 or better heavies. Bit like Marcianos win over Louis, way past his prime but still an ok win, should be looked at like a win over a decent contender.


Liston -

Patterson x 2 - This was the only ATG on Liston's record, but Patterson was in his prime and disposed of twice in round 1, to give an example of how good of a win this was for the time, this was Tyson TKO 1 Spinks twice, a definitive performance.
We could easily level criticism about Pattersons chin and some of his title defences.

Machen - Machen is an underrated boxer who was a tough opponent for a variety of guys, Liston beat this guy clear as day, 10 rounds to 2.
Liston whacked him in the balls quite a few times as well, ok win though.

Cleveland Williams x 2 - Williams, at this time and for a bit after the Liston fights, was a ranked top 5 contender who scored some good wins.
Williams was a good puncher, but a chin checker like you should know his chin wasn't the best.

The best part is that this wasn't competitive, Liston dominated and blew him out on two occasions early.
It's been a while but I remember these guys trading some good shots and Liston comming out on top impressively with his jab and toughness, might have to watch it again, I remember it being a war while it lasted :huh

Zora Foley - Skilled power puncher, was later stopped by Ali but took most of the early rounds off of him, hung around as a top 10 contender for a long time and has some good wins. Liston KO 3.

This easily bests the Morrison win for Lewis.
Lots of rumours about this fight, i've yet to hear any stories about Lewis putting anything on his gloves. That's not really an impartial argument though, and i've never seen anything that confirms this rumour.

Roy Harris - Ranked contender who lasted 13 hard rounds with Patterson, Liston TKO 1, ruined what was left of the guys career.

Lasting 13 rounds with Patterson is the highlight of his career, his resume makes Briggs' look like murderers row.

Nino Valdes - Ranked veteran, Liston KO 3.
Let's be honest, this fighter isn't even in the class of a fighter like Morrison, or even Bruno. Even Mavrovic who you completely ignore on Lewis' resume is a better fighter than this.

Chuck Wepner - Everyone knows this famous fringe contender, Liston TKO 10 at the end of his career.

I'll see your Wepner and raise you an Akinwande.

How is it not comparable? Just because modern fans don't recognise or study the guys that Liston demolished doesn't mean they aren't similiar to many of Lewis' opponents.

Liston was heavily avoided, he never got the chance to add up some more wins, but his dominate wins over the fighters that I listed up top are very valid wins.
You omit some names on Lewis resume that are frankly better than some of the wins you've put on Listons, it's true though, you ARE more impartial than you have been in the past :good

[Amsterdam]

Marciano is too low on that list too, otherwise not a bad effort :good

Everyone has fighters they generally dislike....:lol:

Definitley no exception with me.

[McGrain]

Marciano is too low on that list too, otherwise not a bad effort :good

My list is primarily about head to head. I love watching Rocky fight (apart from the Louis fiasco which I still haven't seen) but I think he gets his head handed to him by most of the guys above him on this list. The way I see it, once a guy "qualifies" for greatness, he then goes to head to head to see where he is on my list.

[Amsterdam]

My list is primarily about head to head. I love watching Rocky fight (apart from the Louis fiasco which I still haven't seen) but I think he gets his head handed to him by most of the guys above him on this list. The way I see it, once a guy "qualifies" for greatness, he then goes to head to head to see where he is on my list.

My list is accomplishment, era/era and h2h, as well as impact in the sport at the time. So I think I have a pretty good list with all of those factors that isn't too biased.

I do recognise Lennox as an ATG, that's not disputed one bit, I just feel he's a lower end ATG.

[Fighting Weight]

My list is primarily about head to head. I love watching Rocky fight (apart from the Louis fiasco which I still haven't seen) but I think he gets his head handed to him by most of the guys above him on this list. The way I see it, once a guy "qualifies" for greatness, he then goes to head to head to see where he is on my list.

Fair enough, you judge em differently to me. I'd never underestimate the rock though....

[McGrain]

I've never seen Johnson so high, but I remember when you first joined that we got into the debate of Louis/Johnson and that I said Louis would own over Johnson... which is completely predictable coming from me.

Those were the days...Christ it seems like three years ago.

I know you have your opinions on old time fighters. Here's my case for Johnson. He could beat almost anyone in a one of fight. He is impossible to spar for, adaptable in the ring, has a top gear that he rarely gets into (think about that in terms of tactical deployment...a nightmare), is the best in fighter in heavyweight history and one of the strongest. The only guy i think mashes him is Ali. I think Tyson, Liston and Lewis have a really good shot at him. Other than that, I see guys dropping a points loss.

And I stand by the Louis thing...he is made for Johsnon (though any rematch would be touch and go).

[Amsterdam]

You omit some names on Lewis resume that are frankly better than some of the wins you've put on Listons, it's true though, you ARE more impartial than you have been in the past :good

Let's up something here for pure discussion sake then my friend, and I do recognise Williams as a shaky chinned fighter, but no worse than a Golota, Rahman, Morrison type and I consider Williams maybe a little better than those guys all around.

But here, let's pull this up for discussion sake, because H2H has plenty to do with my rankings....

Put Sonny Liston in Lewis' general career path, where he'd stay fresher and would be well regarded by the public. Say he starts at age 23, how does he do?

I personally don't see him losing a single fight at the championship level, he was too good all around.

[McGrain]

I do recognise Lennox as an ATG, that's not disputed one bit, I just feel he's a lower end ATG.

There's not as much between 5 and 13 as people like to make out.

Though I do see my top four as an elite.

[Amsterdam]

Those were the days...Christ it seems like three years ago.

I know you have your opinions on old time fighters. Here's my case for Johnson. He could beat almost anyone in a one of fight. He is impossible to spar for, adaptable in the ring, has a top gear that he rarely gets into (think about that in terms of tactical deployment...a nightmare), is the best in fighter in heavyweight history and one of the strongest. The only guy i think mashes him is Ali. I think Tyson, Liston and Lewis have a really good shot at him. Other than that, I see guys dropping a points loss.

And I stand by the Louis thing...he is made for Johsnon (though any rematch would be touch and go).

I've got nothing against Johnson, and as you can see I included him in my top 15. I am always skeptical of the abilities of a fighter from that era, but if we're talking era/era, then Johnson is a skillful menace just like Liston.

Johnson was also one bad mother fucker.... but that's for non-ranking discussion.

I saw a video where Ali was telling it how it was for Johnson... incredible really how much sway he pulled as a black man in that time.

[McGrain]

Fair enough, you judge em differently to me. I'd never underestimate the rock though....

If any of these guys above him underestimated him they would get beaten. I also feel only a select few could afford to rest for even a minute - Johson through genius and Lewis with size maybe.

I'd pick Ali to stop him early on cuts and possibly Tyson or Jeffries with big punches, everyone else is in for a serious night of work.

[Dekkers]

Let's up something here for pure discussion sake then my friend, and I do recognise Williams as a shaky chinned fighter, but no worse than a Golota, Rahman, Morrison type and I consider Williams maybe a little better than those guys all around.

But here, let's pull this up for discussion sake, because H2H has plenty to do with my rankings....

Put Sonny Liston in Lewis' general career path, where he'd stay fresher and would be well regarded by the public. Say he starts at age 23, how does he do?

I personally don't see him losing a single fight at the championship level, he was too good all around.

That's a huge maybe, it's a bit like a Lewis fan using the "what if he was always motivated" argument :lol:

Maybe Liston would be more complacent and less hungry with Lewis' career path, who knows :huh

[Shotgun]

One other thing I would like to mention is their records in title fights.

Holyfield was 10-5-2, although it should really be 11-6 if you count the bogus draw against Lewis that went for him and the bogus draw against Ruiz that went against him. I realize he was going downhill fast for the losses against Ruiz and Byrd but let's look at Lewis

Lewis was 15-2-1 in title fights and should've been 16-2. Now a lot of Holyfield backers like to say how Lewis's first WBC title was meaningless after Bowe refused to face him. Using that logic, the man who beat the man logic, then here's Lewis and Holyfield's records

Lewis in fights for the lineal/undisputed championship was 9-1-1, rightfully 10-1. Holyfield in fights for the lineal/undisputed championship was only 5-3-1, rightfully 5-4. The media and general public liked to think of Holyfield as "undisputed" after he beat Tyson but he wasn't. George Foreman was still the real champ at that point. The lineal title went Tyson-Douglas-Holyfield-Bowe-Holyfield-Moorer-Foreman-Briggs-Lewis. Despite some controversy, such as Foreman-Schulz and Foreman-Briggs, the fact is Lewis had a much better record in fights for the "real" title than Holyfield. When Lewis and Holyfield met, Lewis actually had a more rightful a claim to being the "real" champ as Holyfield did even though the general public and the American boxing press acted otherwise.

In other words Holyfield fans who say that Lewis's title fight record was inflated should think twice before making that argument :yep

[C.J.Rock]

There's not as much between 5 and 13 as people like to make out.

Though I do see my top four as an elite.

Spit and splutter all you want but Lennox Lewis is the best HW champ since Ali Pay homage to Lennox Lewis CBE!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully will soon be !!!!!!!!!!!!! ARISE SIR LENNOX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:happy :happy :happy :happy :happy :happy

[Amsterdam]

That's a huge maybe, it's a bit like a Lewis fan using the "what if he was always motivated" argument :lol:

Maybe Liston would be more complacent and less hungry with Lewis' career path, who knows :huh

That's bound to happen, some fights he'd take less serious, but do you see him getting KOed, or hitting the deck and coming back to KO a Rahman type in those affairs?

Personally, i think Liston gets Rahman in 2-3 rounds, he has the perfect jab and powershot style to get Rahman.

Then the others... Tua, Briggs, Ruddock, Golota etc...

Does he lose?

[McGrain]

Personally, i think Liston gets Rahman in 2-3 rounds, he has the perfect jab and powershot style to get Rahman.

Then the others... Tua, Briggs, Ruddock, Golota etc...

Does he lose?

As challenger Liston KO's all of these guys I think. As champ, you just don't know. Liston let it go as champ. I think unfocused Liston could have dropped a fight to one of these guys, yes.

[McGrain]

Spit and splutter all you want but Lennox Lewis is the best HW champ since Ali


Yes, I quite agree. Try to remain calm about it though.

[Dekkers]

That's bound to happen, some fights he'd take less serious, but do you see him getting KOed, or hitting the deck and coming back to KO a Rahman type in those affairs?

Personally, i think Liston gets Rahman in 2-3 rounds, he has the perfect jab and powershot style to get Rahman.

Then the others... Tua, Briggs, Ruddock, Golota etc...

Does he lose?

As hard as Liston was he quit against Ali in the first fight, and if he didn't take a dive against Ali in the rematch, he was by his own admission intimidated by Ali. Perhaps a softer Liston would be weaker mentally, fold under pressure more easliy, and choose to quit in a tough fight where he was being punished. Like against a Tua or Mercer for example, when they're running hot.

[Zakman]

In my opinion Holyfield was never consistent enough to be held above Lewis. He never defended his title more than 3 times. Lewis gets a lot of crap for his losses to Rahman and McCall, but Holyfield also lost his titles to a pair of opponents who never did anything noteworthy at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield, with Bowe and Moorer.

Indeed, Holyfield's resume outside of the Tyson fights is not very impressive. He never successfully defended a title more than 3 times.

He won the belts from Buster Douglas, who alongside Hasim Rahman is probably the worst undisputed heavyweight champ of all time. His first 3 defenses were against a pair of men well into their 40's and a glass jawed gatekeeper type. He lost then lost badly to Bowe, who again never did anything remarkable at heavyweight aside from beating Holyfield. He beat Bowe in a rematch and immediately lost to Michael Moorer, a talented former light heavyweight but who at heavyweight has proven repeatedly that he has a glass jaw.

A couple of points on this. First of all, Holyfield's resume is top notch, one of othe best in HW history, frankly - it's littered with great fighters. Foreman and Holmes were past their primes, sure - but they weren't as easy competition as people like to make out. Foreman, after all, went on to win the title several years later, and Holmes upset top contender Ray Mercer. These guys were formitable fighters, even at this age. People need to remember that these are top ten ATG competiting at an advanced age, not guys like Oliver McCall.

Simply noting that Holyfield lost to glass jawed Moorer ignored the fact that what he lost was a competitive - and at the time, highly disputed - decision. And Moorer was a top contender, not a tune-up, like McCall.

You imply, as others have, that Tyson was way past his prime in '96 - that's simply overstating it. Yes, he was not the fighter he had been in the late 80s, but he was still a formidable opponent. People forget that, at the time, Tyson was expected to blow right through Evander. There are people who thought he would do so even after he lost the first time. Context is important here. Tyson had won two title belts and was still considered if not THE "most dangerous man" on the planet, still among them.

And whatever people may say about the CAREER of Riddick Bowe, in his prime in the early 90s, he was a great fighter. People forget again, that at the time most "experts" thought that Bowe would have a better career than either Lewis or Holyfield. People thought he might even rival his Brooklyn "neighbor" Tyson. To look back now, and say because Bowe petered out so quickly that he was not a serious opponent is to completely ignore the context of the time. And Holyfield beat him IN SPITE of having every disadvantage physically - that's impressive.

Finally, this canard about Holyfield's supposed "inconsistency" - this is the one that his critics love to repeat as if it is revealed fact. Yes, Holyfield won and lost titles. So did Lewis. But Holyfield was at or near the top of the division for over ten years, which is at least equal to Lewis' run. And he faced all three of the other top guys of the era, and beat two of them. There were even some journalists who suggested he nicked the second fight against Lewis - and past his prime, at that! Imagine what he would have done to Lewis if they'd met when Holyfield was at his best!!

[Dekkers]

Holyfield fans always bring up the rematch but act like the first fight never happened. If Lewis chose to fight the same fight he did in their first encounter the result would have been the same, instead he chose to open up and be more agressive, and that made the fight closer. People who think Holy won that fight though usually struggle when it's time to make a scorecard :smoke

[Fighting Weight]

Holyfield fans always bring up the rematch but act like the first fight never happened. If Lewis chose to fight the same fight he did in their first encounter the result would have been the same, instead he chose to open up and be more agressive, and that made the fight closer. People who think Holy won that fight though usually struggle when it's time to make a scorecard :smoke

:yep :yep :yep :yep

Lewis CLEARLY won both fights.

[hobgoblin]

holyfield is overrated

look, i don't like holyfield but...

AT HIS BEST...he is NOT overrated

[McGrain]

:yep :yep :yep :yep

Lewis CLEARLY won both fights.

I had him winning the first one by distance and the second one by a point.

[AJAX]

:yep :yep :yep :yep

Lewis CLEARLY won both fights.

This could be a first but I agree with you FW

[limi_7]

I wouldn't say overrated more like impressive. Common guys his resume is quite impressive and he is overrated get a clue. With only 2 losses and 41 wins against top fighers like tyson, vitali and many others he is the top I can't complain.

[Zakman]

Spit and splutter all you want but Lennox Lewis is the best HW champ since Ali

Classic overrating of Lewis. The best since Ali?? Jeez, Larry Holmes with his 20 successful defenses is EASILY better, and so's Holyfield. Tyson too.

Jeez, you people overrate Lewis so much, you actually pass over Larry Holmes.:patsch Now THAT'S nuthuggery at its finest. :nod

[Zakman]

Lewis is overrated. Not even the best of the era, let alone best since Ali. :patsch

Can't be the best of the era when you get KTFO by second-raters like McCall and Rahman!! :-(

[Archie_Moore]

Classic overrating of Lewis. The best since Ali?? Jeez, Larry Holmes with his 20 successful defenses is EASILY better, and so's Holyfield. Tyson too.

Jeez, you people overrate Lewis so much, you actually pass over Larry Holmes.:patsch Now THAT'S nuthuggery at its finest. :nod

Larry Holmes would lose to Lennox if they fought... Prime for Prime, and it wouldn't even be close imho. Larry IS great, but also ruled in one of the weakest eras ever.

You can't call me a nuthugger either, cause I wasn't a fan of Lewis when he was fighting. :good

Lennox has beat some damn good oppostion and was clearly head and shoulders better then anyone that he fought.

[fightking12]

I dont think so

[Zakman]

Larry Holmes would lose to Lennox if they fought... Prime for Prime, and it wouldn't even be close imho. Larry IS great, but also ruled in one of the weakest eras ever.

You can't call me a nuthugger either, cause I wasn't a fan of Lewis when he was fighting. :good

Lennox has beat some damn good oppostion and was clearly head and shoulders better then anyone that he fought.

Head to head is pure speculation. Holmes' career accomplishments speak for themselves, and they are clearly superior to Lewis's. You never saw Larry KTFO by second raters.

And Lewis is not better than Holyfield or Tyson. He got victories over faded verisions of both. If he fought them when they were at the top of their games, it would have been a VERY different story.

In any event, both of those guys have better overall careers than Lewis - and neither was ever stretched out early by B-level fighters.

[Archie_Moore]

Like the gift decision against mercer? the same man who larry holmes fucking spanked and sent crying home to his mother.

Every fighter gets gifts my friend, if you mention Lewis, you must also mention just about all other great HW champions who ever lived. Cause to say they never got gifts is rediculous. :good

[Archie_Moore]

Head to head is pure speculation. Holmes' career accomplishments speak for themselves, and they are clearly superior to Lewis's. You never saw Larry KTFO by second raters.

And Lewis is not better than Holyfield or Tyson. He got victories over faded verisions of both. If he fought them when they were at the top of their games, it would have been a VERY different story.

In any event, both of those guys have better overall careers than Lewis - and neither was ever stretched out early by B-level fighters.

So because he lost to non All time greats he sucks?

Losing doesn't matter Zakman, its what you do after the loss that counts, and the accompishments of Lewis speak for themself. He came back and dominated after those losses. :good

It would be hard to find a fighter that has beat better oppostion then Lewis that isn't in the top list of greatest HW of all time. :good

[thesandman]

tyson never got a gift decision.

You've named one.

He said "just about all".


Are you arguing just for the sake of it?

[Archie_Moore]

I thought that he said "all", but im not above arguing for the sake of arguing.

Then you would agree? :good

[Doppleganger]

I hear you. Amsterdam and Zakman do underestimate Lewis IMO, BUT they mount reasonable defences and I usually learn somethng when talking to them or reading them. So that's OK. And if everybody thought Lewis was top 10, who would we get to correct, right?

:D
Reasonable but heavily biased defences, especially in the case of Zakman. I don't mind at all that someone has a different opinion - it would be very boring if we all thought the same. However, it's the complete lack of objectivity that I find frustrating and childish. I would love to get someone like Zakman in the same room/bar/whatever and debate this subject to him. That way, he couldn't run away or churn out the same tired lines when I presented him with compelling arguments and facts. :yep

[Drexl]

Tyson
.
Holyfield
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Lewis


...From a man with an MMA avatar.

Case closed.
Lewis >>> Holyfield >>> Tyson.

[Drexl]

Like the gift decision against mercer? the same man who larry holmes fucking spanked and sent crying home to his mother.


If you actually knew how to score a fight, you would know that was a close but CLEAR victory for Lewis.

Try again.

[Drexl]

Lewis is overrated. Not even the best of the era, let alone best since Ali. :patsch

Can't be the best of the era when you get KTFO by second-raters like McCall and Rahman!! :-(


If "second raters" means title holders and long-time top-10 fighters, then what does that make Bert Cooper?

Rahman and McCall achieved about as much in the sport as Bowe, who Holy made his name from (made his name from by losing 2 out of 3 by the way...)

[Holmes' Jab]

He's not as over-rated as George Foreman :deal

[Drexl]

To a new fan, who hasn't studied up on the older guys, I had to explain where those guys stood at the time.

...and you think that "Ranked Veteran" adequately sums up Valdes???

:roll:

[Holmes' Jab]

So is Joe Louis

Get real:roll:

[K0NPHL1C7]

Regardless of how over/underated Lewis may be, he's far better than Sam Peter in every aspect.

[Holmes' Jab]

Without a doubt he blows Lewis out peak to peak.:yep

Nonsense. Prime Tyson was a great HW no question, however I think you're taking things much too far here. No doubt that I regard Tyson's reign as one of the best ever (as quite a few of my past posts state), however despite countless mesmerising performances against game opposition you're forgetting he had a few off nights as well.

If a fighters such as Tony Tucker (with an injured hand) and Bonecrusher Smith can live with a prime Tyson over the duration of a title fight, Lewis is far superior to both these guys and would capatilize where the other failed. Even on his grade A peak-period game Tyson would have problems with Lewis.

[Denny Cruser]

Can't be the best of the era when you get KTFO by second-raters like McCall and Rahman!! :-(
Its fault of your chin, while when you lose by points to second-raters like Moorer it is fault of your boxing ability and you definetly cant be the best of your era.
Joe Louis was outboxed and KOed by second-rater Schmelling
Jack Johnson was TKOed by John Klondike Haines
And so on ... Such posts could be created through the years. But the truth remains - Lewis avenged all losses in highly competitive era.

[Fighting Weight]

tyson never got a gift decision.

Only because he got knocked out or stopped in every fight he was losing :D

If he'd made it to the final bell against Douglas you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have got the decision, despite losing pretty much every round. I think he was either level or ahead on the cards when he was knocked out, unbelievable.

[Sonny's jab]

Only because he got knocked out or stopped in every fight he was losing :D

If he'd made it to the final bell against Douglas you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have got the decision, despite losing pretty much every round. I think he was either level or ahead on the cards when he was knocked out, unbelievable.

Yeah, and even then the promoter and the WBC (Word's Biggest Crooks) were trying to tell us Tyson won the fight.

........ by KO ! :lol:


Damn, boxing is corrupt. :-(

[Fighting Weight]

If "second raters" means title holders and long-time top-10 fighters, then what does that make Bert Cooper?

Rahman and McCall achieved about as much in the sport as Bowe, who Holy made his name from (made his name from by losing 2 out of 3 by the way...)

Can't wait for the response to that.....

He'll bring up the victories over Tysons shell, no doubt :roll:

[Fighting Weight]

Yeah, and even then the promoter and the WBC (Word's Biggest Crooks) were trying to tell us Tyson won the fight.

........ by KO ! :lol:


Damn, boxing is corrupt. :-(

I remember the Tyson interview after the fight - "I won the fight, I knocked him out before he knocked me out" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Sonny's jab]

If "second raters" means title holders and long-time top-10 fighters, then what does that make Bert Cooper?

Rahman and McCall achieved about as much in the sport as Bowe, who Holy made his name from (made his name from by losing 2 out of 3 by the way...)

This is actually very unfair to Holyfield and Bowe.
Bolstering Lewis by attacking Holyfield seems an odd move, since decision wins over a Holyfield in decline are probably Lewis's best results.

And the undefeated young Bowe was a tough challenger for the title, by any historical standard. You wont find many challengers of that quality on the records of most greats, so Holyfield should not get hammered too hard for losing that one.

It's wrong to say Holyfield made his name with Bowe only. Holyfield was UNDISPUTED champion of the world, with a KO over Buster Douglas, and before that he was number 1 contender for Tyson's title and considered the biggest threat out there, before that he was UNDISPUTED Champion at cruiserweight. Fought one of the last classic 15 rounders in his 12th pro fight.
RING MAGAZINE had him as "Fighter of the Year" in 1987 and had him marginally edging Tyson for that honour, despite Tyson's peak popularity.
This guy Holyfield has paid his dues over and over.

Holyfield and Lewis were both GREAT, that's the bottom line.

[Sonny's jab]

I remember the Tyson interview after the fight - "I won the fight, I knocked him out before he knocked me out" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

:lol:

They really thought they'd get away with that ! :lol:

:patsch

[Zakman]

This is actually very unfair to Holyfield and Bowe.
Bolstering Lewis by attacking Holyfield seems an odd move, since decision wins over a Holyfield in decline are probably Lewis's best results.

And the undefeated young Bowe was a tough challenger for the title, by any historical standard. You wont find many challengers of that quality on the records of most greats, so Holyfield should not get hammered too hard for losing that one.

It's wrong to say Holyfield made his name with Bowe only. Holyfield was UNDISPUTED champion of the world, with a KO over Buster Douglas, and before that he was number 1 contender for Tyson's title and considered the biggest threat out there, before that he was UNDISPUTED Champion at cruiserweight. Fought one of the last classic 15 rounders in his 12th pro fight.
RING MAGAZINE had him as "Fighter of the Year" in 1987 and had him marginally edging Tyson for that honour, despite Tyson's peak popularity.
This guy Holyfield has paid his dues over and over.

Holyfield and Lewis were both GREAT, that's the bottom line.

Very good post. Lewis critics like myself are not arguing that Lewis is NOT great - that would be absurd, frankly. All we are saying is that he is nowhere near as great as the chorus of nuthuggers likes to make out, and that it is plain and simple overrating to say he was the best of an era in which Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson were fighting.

Lewis was great, yes - but getting laid out by B level fighters means he cannot be reasonably ranked above greats like Holyfield, who competed against much larger men, won the title multiple times, and was never, ever, starched by second raters in the early rounds.

[Zakman]

he was one of few greatest heavyweights of all times. no doubt !!!

Certainly. Just not as great as the Lewis fanclub likes to make out. And not greater than Evander Holyfield, who actually beat two of the other top guys of the era (Tyson and Bowe) when they were formitable opponents, and never got KTFO early by B-levels fighters. :nod

[Doppleganger]

Very good post. Lewis critics like myself are not arguing that Lewis is NOT great - that would be absurd, frankly. All we are saying is that he is nowhere near as great as the chorus of nuthuggers likes to make out, and that it is plain and simple overrating to say he was the best of an era in which Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson were fighting.
But Lewis beat both Holyfield and Tyson. How many times did either beat Lewis?

Lewis was great, yes - but getting laid out by B level fighters means he cannot be reasonably ranked above greats like Holyfield, who competed against much larger men, won the title multiple times, and was never, ever, starched by second raters in the early rounds.
Holyfield was 6ft 2 and between 210 and 220lbs when fighting at HW. Who are these "much larger men" you speak of? Lewis himself weighed about 30 pounds more in their fights. Larger yes, but much larger? Moreover, Holyfield only won the HW title multiple times because he was unable to defend it for a consistent period of time. Finally, Holyfield may not have been starched early (although he nearly was against Cooper) but he's been floored more times than Lewis and stopped more times than Lewis.

[Sonny's jab]

Holyfield may not have been starched early (although he nearly was against Cooper) but he's been floored more times than Lewis and stopped more times than Lewis.

Holyfield has only been stopped TWICE, same as Lewis.

[Denny Cruser]

To further develop the stupidnes we can say - Lewis never was outboxed by B-level fighter (at heavyweight) as Moorer.

[Zakman]

But Lewis beat both Holyfield and Tyson. How many times did either beat Lewis?
OF COURSE he beat them. Holyfield was 37 years old and already on the decline; Tyson as completly washed up. Had he faced them when they were even near their primes, the result would have been much different

I suppose you give tons of credit to Rocky Marciano for beating up the 37 year old shell of Joe Louis too?? Holmes one-sided victory over Ali was another awesome legacy performance also, right?:lol:

[Denny Cruser]

Holyfield has only been stopped TWICE, same as Lewis.
moreover the Bowe punch (3d bout) was nearly equal to that of McCall with equal results, but not equal referee decisions.

[Zakman]

To further develop the stupidnes we can say - Lewis never was outboxed by B-level fighter (at heavyweight) as Moorer.

Moorer wasn't B level - he was one of the better HWs of the era. And he hardly "outboxed" Holyfield. :-( He won a very disputed decision - one that many people feel Evander should have gotten. That does even compare to getting laid out cold by mediocrities like McCall or Rahman.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Moorer wasn't B level - he was one of the better HWs of the era. And he hardly "outboxed" Holyfield. :-( He won a very disputed decision - one that many people feel Evander should have gotten. That does even compare to getting laid out cold by mediocrities like McCall or Rahman.

Zak...you DO realize Moorer's chin don't ya? I mean, if ANYONE should, it's you.:D

[C.J.Rock]

OF COURSE he beat them. Holyfield was 37 years old and already on the decline; Tyson as completly washed up. Had he faced them when they were even near their primes, the result would have been much different

I suppose you give tons of credit to Rocky Marciano for beating up the 37 year old shell of Joe Louis too?? Holmes one-sided victory over Ali was another awesome legacy performance also, right?:lol:

You folks bitch about Lewis only beating a shell of Tyson But you forget Lennox is actually OLDER than Mike. Plus before the Lewis-Tyson fight the majority of you claimed Tyson would win by KO
In their primes Lennox would STILL have owned both
:bbb :hi: :bbb :hi: :bbb :hi:

[Drexl]

Moorer wasn't B level - he was one of the better HWs of the era.

....based on...... what exactly??

What did he do that makes him soooo much better as a HW than McCall or Rahman?

[Fighting Weight]

Moorer wasn't B level - he was one of the better HWs of the era. And he hardly "outboxed" Holyfield. :-( He won a very disputed decision - one that many people feel Evander should have gotten. That does even compare to getting laid out cold by mediocrities like McCall or Rahman.

No, it's far, far worse :yep

Getting floored by a Toney body shot and damn near having his head taken off by Ruiz and Bert Cooper also don't look too good, but they don't count, right?

[Fighting Weight]

....based on...... what exactly??

What did he do that makes him soooo much better as a HW than McCall or Rahman?

He beat Evander, of course :patsch

[Drexl]

He beat Evander, of course :patsch

:lol:

Exactly. Now we're getting to the real issue. The double standards are so transparent that it's bordering on pathetic.

The people Lewis lost to are proof that he is garbage.
The people Holy lost to are great because they beat Holy.

The people that Lewis beat were nothing because Lewis beat them.
The people that Holyfield beat are proof that he is awesome.

:roll:

[Zakman]

....based on...... what exactly??

What did he do that makes him soooo much better as a HW than McCall or Rahman?

Michael Moorer was an established LHW before he moved up, and he beat some good fighters to get into contention. Unlike McCall or Rahman, he was a mandatory contender

Yeah, Moorer had a glass jaw, yeah he is one of the worst HW champions of all time (although not as bad as Rahman in either department) - but he was still probably the 5th or 6th best HW of the era, AND Holyfield dropped him and should have gotten the decision in their first fight. It is very different losing a CLOSE and DEBATABLE decision than getting laid out by second rate HWs - very different indeed.

BTW - nice to see ya back Drex, where ya been lately? These debates haven't been the same without ya! :D

[Amsterdam]

In my opinion, Moorer would have stached Rahman and outboxed McCall to a UD.

[BOOKA]

Lewis isn't even the best fighter of the era in which he competed - that's Holyfield. He never fought any of the top guys of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe) when they were even near their peaks, and he didn't even fight Bowe at all.



So because he did not fight them means that he definetely wouldn't have beaten them ??

don't be stupid, know one knows if he wouldve beaten them.

He smashed up Razor Ruddock who was competitive against Prime Tyson

He destroyed Golota who was beating prime bowe twice before being disqualified

So its all ifs and buts

[Boyd]

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

You guys repeat the Lewis camp propaganda like it's fact. What rubbish. Like boxing fans can read a fighter's man.

It's all irrelevant anyway - fact is, Lewis didn't face him, and he faced faded versions of Holyfield and Tyson. Holyfield, on the other hand, faced a prime Bowe, and still formitable Tyson. And he was never KTFO by second raters!:-(:lol:no, he was just knocked out by a former middleweight who could't even beat the ham and egger you keep going on about.

[Sonny's jab]

Michael Moorer was 34-0 and had a certain pedigree when he beat Holyfield, he was considered a sharp southpaw boxer, that fight was very close.

Oliver McCall was 24-5 and had a reputation as a tough journeyman-type sparring partner when he beat Lennox Lewis, and that was quite a dramatic victory.

I wouldn't say Moorer is much better than McCall, he's not as tough for one thing, but he was considered to have far more boxing quality at the time.

The first Holyfield-Moorer fight was VERY CLOSE, that's the important difference.
As I remember the first Lewis-McCall fight, it ended early in the 2nd round with Lewis electing to do the rubber-legged Tango with the referee.

Then again, McCall cried like a baby in the rematch.
Holyfield never had that effect on anyone.
Maybe Lewis is greater ?

[boxingcar]

what most Lennox Lewis haters don't understand...is that there wasn't such a thing as a talented guy of his size back in tyson's or Ali's era...

before talking about "poor" era...always remember this...fighters are very different today..Extremely different. all these eras are hardly comparable to each other...When you look at some of tyson's opponents , we can also argue and say that HE was the one who was actually fighting in the shittiest boxing era ever...and no wonder he used to look good at demolishing some of these cans...no wonder he was dominating with ease...

Hell this can even be argued for the white guys...most white guys back then used to be monumental cans for all fighters...white american boxers , for some reason have little to nothing in common with what eastern europe is proposing.

[Doppleganger]

OF COURSE he beat them. Holyfield was 37 years old and already on the decline; Tyson as completly washed up. Had he faced them when they were even near their primes, the result would have been much different

I suppose you give tons of credit to Rocky Marciano for beating up the 37 year old shell of Joe Louis too?? Holmes one-sided victory over Ali was another awesome legacy performance also, right?:lol:
Those fights were different and you know it. Holyfield was still a highly competitive fighter at 37 as he proved against Lewis. His last hurrah if you like. Louis was not competitive and old and the least said about the sad state of Ali v Holmes the better.

What makes you think a prime Holy would have done any better against Lewis? I think Lewis wil always beat Holyfield. He sort of demonstrated this in their 2 fights as he fought 2 different types of fight and yet still won (or should have won both). Please note when I say this that Holyfield was always a favourite of mine and Lewis more often than not pissed me off with his lethargic, disinterested perfomances. Despite this, he is still the greater HW. Jeez, aren't we supposed to be objective here? I mean, if I copied your stance I'd have Tommy Hearns higher than Ray Leonard at WW.

Tyson is a different matter and I could not be certain who would win between prime Tyson and prime Lewis. Lewis has more options to win any fight though and the Lewis right hand/uppercut may stop Tyson rushing in and blunt his offense somewhat. Tyson didn't knock them all out and one of his greatest weapons, namely intimidation, would not work against the ice-calm Lewis. If I had to put money down I would pick Lewis.

[haroldinho]

I absolutley agree with this.

Lewis was not a great offensive infighter, he had one great weapon and that was it.

This is nonsense, of course. Lewis had one of the best jabs in heavyweight history, and then his awesome overhand right, which destroyed Tyson (and many others). So that's two, and I would include his defensive acumen as a third, myself.

[Sonny's jab]

What makes you think a prime Holy would have done any better against Lewis? I think Lewis wil always beat Holyfield. He sort of demonstrated this in their 2 fights as he fought 2 different types of fight and yet still won (or should have won both). Please note when I say this that Holyfield was always a favourite of mine and Lewis more often than not pissed me off with his lethargic, disinterested perfomances. Despite this, he is still the greater HW.

I think Holyfield of around 1990 - '93 had an awesome workrate compared to the 1999 version, and was far quicker on his feet, and his threw his jab in twos, threes and fours, really impressive.

Seeing as he gave Lewis at least one close fight in 1999 (the 2nd one) I dont think it's unreasonable to think that as a younger man he might have out-worked Lewis over 12 rounds.

[melo22]

CLASSIC example of how overrated Lewis is by some boxing fans today - and how underrated Holyfield is! I KNEW I'd get a few of these.:nut

Delusional is putting it mildly!:yep

Ok ur one of those guys who likes holyfields work ethic, being a blue collar boxer shit like that, so that clouds ur judgement on this issue. Your also biased to Lennox, which is okay, but I'm just letting you know you shouldn't let your personal feelings get in the week of this discussion, it just makes you seem much less knowledgable then you probaly are.
Whenever I let my personal feelings cloud my judgment, I try to take a step back, you should try it ya know.

[haroldinho]

you should put mike tyson at six.

go back and see that absolute rampage that he went on through the division. Watch the films of his absolute terrifying speed and power.

Tyson beats every heavyweights theres ever been so far.

What nonsense. Tyson was always susceptible to anyone who had a good jab and was not scared by him. What would the Lewis haters have said if Lewis had been murdered by Danny Williams?

[ChampionsForever]

Yeah, REALLY unbiased! :lol::lol::lol::lol:


You feel the need to find a negative for these Lewis opponents from elsewhere in their careers, but all Valdes gets is "Ranked veteran".

Talk about selective details!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

:lol::lol:My thoughts exactly, you dont see that next to Tysons name, all you see is "totally shot and this win means nothing" :-(

[Shotgun]

The people Lewis lost to are proof that he is garbage.
The people Holy lost to are great because they beat Holy.

Exactly, Bowe and Moorer get propped up because they beat Holyfield, they never accomplished anything else. Truth be told Hasim Rahman was a better heavyweight than Michael Moorer. And that doesn't mean that Rahman is great by any means. Moorer's claim to fame is beating Holyfield and getting KTFO by one punch by a 45 year old man. Yeah Rahman was a terrible champ, but so was Moorer, they hold two of the worst reigns in heavyweight history. Rahman at least beat Lewis and Corrie Sanders, and was competetive against Tua before being stopped. Michael Moorer's best win at heavyweight outside of Holyfield was Frans Botha.

Moorer did NOTHING but beat Holyfield. Bowe did NOTHING but beat Holyfield. But they get propped up because they beat Evander. If they were so special why did they lose to almost every other top level heavyweight they ever fought? Or in Bowe's case, get the shit beat out of them by the only other top level heavyweight they fought and emerge with a couple "wins" because the opponent is a headcase and got himself DQ'd. Let's not kid ourselves, McCall, Rahman and Moorer are all on the same tier. Bowe is a cut above those guys but again I still don't see why Holyfield 's backers bring up the Bowe trilogy as a plus for Evander, he was dominated in the overall scope of the trilogy, his lone win being very narrow and sandwiched in between two emphatic losses. How is that a positive in debate? Sure he beat Bowe, narrowly, one out of three times. He LOST the trilogy, and badly at that. And Bowe never did anything before or after those fights worth mentioning

[haroldinho]

For two such great fighters i'd say the split hair would be strength. Can Lewis manhandle Liston? If so, Lennox will win. If not, Liston will win.

I'd bet on Liston, but it would need to be pretty quick IMO.

Lewis every day. Physically stronger with A massive reach advantage. It's all very well saying Liston would knock him out, but he's got to hit him first. Tyson couldn't manage it, and Lewis stood up to his power with ease.

[Doppleganger]

Lewis every day. Physically stronger with A massive reach advantage. It's all very well saying Liston would knock him out, but he's got to hit him first. Tyson couldn't manage it, and Lewis stood up to his power with ease.
Well they have exactly the same reach actually but I am one of the few on this board that would pick Lewis over Liston. I just think Lewis has more tools and can win more ways than Liston can. Liston was a helluva fighter though and it's a shame that his career seemed to be dictated by ahem, outside interests.

[Sonny's jab]

Bowe is a cut above those guys but again I still don't see why Holyfield 's backers bring up the Bowe trilogy as a plus for Evander, he was dominated in the overall scope of the trilogy, his lone win being very narrow and sandwiched in between two emphatic losses. How is that a positive in debate? Sure he beat Bowe, narrowly, one out of three times. He LOST the trilogy, and badly at that. And Bowe never did anything before or after those fights worth mentioning

On the other hand, Lewis never fought trilogies with Rahman or McCall.
He lost the first encounter with both, then avenged in a rematch.

Same thing Holyfield did with Bowe. He lost the first fight, and won the second.

[Shotgun]

On the other hand, Lewis never fought trilogies with Rahman or McCall.
He lost the first encounter with both, then avenged in a rematch.

Same thing Holyfield did with Bowe. He lost the first fight, and won the second.
If Lewis had fought them in a rubber match, and LOST, you can bet that it would be held against Lewis and rightfully so

You can't just act like Holyfield's loss in the third Bowe match doesn't count because Lewis never fought a trilogy with anyone. The fact is that Holyfield did fight Bowe 3 times, not two, and lost 2 out of 3 in decisive fashion, and the one he won was by far the closest of the 3 fights. We're talking about real results here, not hypotheticals and what ifs. Holyfield's loss against Bowe in the rubber match absolutely should be counted, he was stopped during his prime and over the course of 3 matches, Bowe clearly and decisively got the best of Holyfield, right in the heart of Holyfield's prime as a heavyweight

[Zakman]

So because he did not fight them means that he definetely wouldn't have beaten them ??

don't be stupid, know one knows if he wouldve beaten them.

OF COURSE, no one knows for sure if he would have beaten him or they would have beaten him - but given that Holyfield nearly beat Lewis in the rematch (quite a few ringside journalists thought he won), it is more than reasonable to assume a PRIME Holyfield would.

As far as Tyson - if a Mike Tyson punch landed on Lewis' chin, it is hardly surprising to imagine Lewis laying unconcious on the canvas like he did against Rahman, or wobbling all over the place on queer street like he did against McCall.

Bottom line - Lewis faced faded versions of these guys. Holyfield, on the other hand, faced a prime version of Bowe, who whatever his faults is easily the fourth best HW of the era, and a still-formitable Tyson who had just bulldozed his way to two alphabet titles.

And the rest of his record is AT LEAST equal to Lewis's in quality. When you combine that with the fact that Holyfield was NEVER taken out in the early rounds by second-raters like Lewis was, the choice is clear.

[Drexl]

OF COURSE, no one knows for sure if he would have beaten him or they would have beaten him - but given that Holyfield nearly beat Lewis in the rematch (quite a few ringside journalists thought he won), it is more than reasonable to assume a PRIME Holyfield would.

As far as Tyson - if a Mike Tyson punch landed on Lewis' chin, it is hardly surprising to imagine Lewis laying unconcious on the canvas like he did against Rahman, or wobbling all over the place on queer street like he did against McCall.

Bottom line - Lewis faced faded versions of these guys. Holyfield, on the other hand, faced a prime version of Bowe, who whatever his faults is easily the fourth best HW of the era, and a still-formitable Tyson who had just bulldozed his way to two alphabet titles.

And the rest of his record is AT LEAST equal to Lewis's in quality. When you combine that with the fact that Holyfield was NEVER taken out in the early rounds by second-raters like Lewis was, the choice is clear.

But then when you factor in the fact that Lewis beat Holyfield (who WAS NOT shot, before you even try to say it. He was rated above Lewis - you aren't saying Holy was more overrated han Lewis are you? :think )

... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never out-pointed by second rater like Moorer (no I personally don't believe he is second rater, but if you believe Rahman & McCall are then you must believe Moorer was... unless you apply uneven and biased criteria....:blood )

.... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never kncked down by a THIRD rater like cooper


...then the choice becomes murky again.

[The Italarican]

But then when you factor in the fact that Lewis beat Holyfield (who WAS NOT shot, before you even try to say it. He was rated above Lewis - you aren't saying Holy was more overrated han Lewis are you? :think )

... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never out-pointed by second rater like Moorer (no I personally don't believe he is second rater, but if you believe Rahman & McCall are then you must believe Moorer was... unless you apply uneven and biased criteria....:blood )

.... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never kncked down by a THIRD rater like cooper


...then the choice becomes murky again.

I always enjoy these posts of yours, Drexl.

[Zakman]

But then when you factor in the fact that Lewis beat Holyfield (who WAS NOT shot, before you even try to say it. He was rated above Lewis - you aren't saying Holy was more overrated han Lewis are you? :think )

... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never out-pointed by second rater like Moorer (no I personally don't believe he is second rater, but if you believe Rahman & McCall are then you must believe Moorer was... unless you apply uneven and biased criteria....:blood )

.... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never kncked down by a THIRD rater like cooper


...then the choice becomes murky again.
Well, of course it depends on what you think of the opposition, and how you weigh various factors. Getting laid out cold or so badly wobbled early that you can't continue is, imo, far worse than losing a close, debatable decision, and I think most boxing fans would agree.

Secondly, I think you can make a strong case that Moorer was far more highly regarded than either McCall or Rahman, and that, he was, in terms of ability, a far better fighter than either of those guys.

And a cheesy knockdown, in which Holyfield wasn't even off his feet, and in which he came back to stop his opponent, is hardly the black mark that getting starched by fighters like that is. In fact, that Holyfield could triumph over adversity is but further indication of his greatness - it shows he had something that Lewis lacked, the ability to RECOVER when hurt, and actually WIN a fight!!! :nod

Oh, and again, beating a faded version of Holyfield by close decision (the second time) hardly indicates Lewis' superiority. In fact, it raises more questions than it answers, frankly.

[Sonny's jab]

You can't just act like Holyfield's loss in the third Bowe match doesn't count because Lewis never fought a trilogy with anyone. The fact is that Holyfield did fight Bowe 3 times, not two, and lost 2 out of 3 in decisive fashion, and the one he won was by far the closest of the 3 fights. We're talking about real results here, not hypotheticals and what ifs. Holyfield's loss against Bowe in the rubber match absolutely should be counted, he was stopped during his prime and over the course of 3 matches, Bowe clearly and decisively got the best of Holyfield, right in the heart of Holyfield's prime as a heavyweight


Riddick Bowe was considered by most people to be the best heavyweight in the world going into that 3rd match with Holyfield.

In the first fight, Bowe was considered, along with Lennox Lewis, by far the best available challenger, Ruddock having been eliminated, Tyson in jail.

And in the second fight, Bowe was champion and expected to beat Holyfield inside the distance.

Holyfield was already thought to be in decline by that 3rd match, already 33 and having looked bad against Moorer two fights earlier. So he wasn't in the "heart of his prime at heavyweight", IMO.

I actually think Holyfield's prime was about 1987 to 1993, that's a LONG PRIME. He didn't have two primes, one at cruiser and one at heavy, that's often the implication of such statements and it makes no sense.

The fact that Bowe proved better than Holyfield between Nov. '92 and Nov. '95 is no problem for me to accept.
Since Bowe was considered the top heavyweight in the world for most of that time, and since Holyfield did score a win over Bowe in that period I dont see how it reflects badly on Holyfield.

Like you say - "We're talking about real results here, not hypotheticals and what ifs." - and the reality shows Holyfield was fighting the best at that time, and capable of beating the men who beat him, one of which many were saying was the best fighter out there.

Bowe came and went. Holyfield was number 1 contender and undisputed champion before Bowe arrived, and was rated either number 1 or 2 (depends who you ask) in the years after Bowe disappeared.

Holyfield's record against Bowe has positive and negative aspects. It's not just black and white.
I remember watching Holyfield become only the third man in history (after Floyd Patterson & Muhammad Ali) to regain the championship, and against the predictions of almost everyone. I knew then that there is no way should he be remembered as an ordinary champion. That was when he beat Bowe in 1993.
I challenge anyone to watch all three Holyfield-Bowe fights and then say that nothing positive can be credited to his legacy because Bowe won the series.

And those fights are just a small portion of Holyfield's record of many fights against the best fighters of his era. When you add it all up there is only one conclusion to be made ....

Holyfield is one of the GREAT heavyweights.

[Fighting Weight]

And a cheesy knockdown, in which Holyfield wasn't even off his feet, and in which he came back to stop his opponent, is hardly the black mark that getting starched by fighters like that is. In fact, that Holyfield could triumph over adversity is but further indication of his greatness - it shows he had something that Lewis lacked, the ability to RECOVER when hurt, and actually WIN a fight!!! :nod


Holyfield was held up by the ropes - he was on his way to the canvas otherwise, no doubt about that.

So you're seriously suggesting that in all the wins Lewis had, he was never hurt? He was definately hurt by Briggs and VITLAY for a start. Just because he didn't stagger back into the ropes like Evander did doesn't mean he wasn't hit.

Fact of the matter is Lewis is 2-0 against Holyfield, you're argument doesn't hold water :yep

[Fighting Weight]

But then when you factor in the fact that Lewis beat Holyfield (who WAS NOT shot, before you even try to say it. He was rated above Lewis - you aren't saying Holy was more overrated han Lewis are you? :think )

... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never out-pointed by second rater like Moorer (no I personally don't believe he is second rater, but if you believe Rahman & McCall are then you must believe Moorer was... unless you apply uneven and biased criteria....:blood )

.... and add to that the fact that Lewis was never kncked down by a THIRD rater like cooper


...then the choice becomes murky again.

I love the way the Tyson that Holyfield faced was 'still formidable' and the Tyson Lewis faced was 'totally shot' :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Oh and there's still no response to Evander getting stopped by a James Toney body shot either :huh

[AJAX]

Zakman is like a politition, he tap dances around questions he chooses not to respond to.I don't understand why Holifield get's the free pass of "a faded Evander" even though they are almost the same age and Lewis fought well into his late 30's . And evander couldn't beat John Ruiz in a trilogy but it doesn't count in Zaks book.And as for Toney that was a brutal beating he gave Evander, that was his best fight as a heavyweight.

[Zakman]

Zakman is like a politition, he tap dances around questions he chooses not to respond to.I don't understand why Holifield get's the free pass of "a faded Evander" even though they are almost the same age and Lewis fought well into his late 30's . And evander couldn't beat John Ruiz in a trilogy but it doesn't count in Zaks book.And as for Toney that was a brutal beating he gave Evander, that was his best fight as a heavyweight.

You are not seriously suggesting that Holyfield was anywhere close to his prime when Toney stopped him, are you? Jeez, he was over 40!!! And even then, it still took Toney to the late rounds to take him out, and Evander wasn't exactly unconscious or on queer street either.

Oh, by the way, Holyfield is at least 3 years older than Lewis, which can make a big difference. It is well known that Holyfield was much more warn out than Lewis at 37, having been in war after war throughout his career - and that was even more the case when Lewis was 33-34, the age he was when they fought! :patsch

[Fighting Weight]

You are not seriously suggesting that Holyfield was anywhere close to his prime when Toney stopped him, are you? Jeez, he was over 40!!! And even then, it still took Toney to the late rounds to take him out, and Evander wasn't exactly unconscious or on queer street either.

Oh, by the way, Holyfield is at least 3 years older than Lewis, which can make a big difference. It is well known that Holyfield was much more warn out than Lewis at 37, having been in war after war throughout his career - and that was even more the case when Lewis was 33-34, the age he was when they fought! :patsch

Yes, going life and death with 'ham and eggers' like Bowe, Moorer, old Foreman (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned), Bert Cooper and old Holmes (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned) sure did a lot of damage to poor Evander didn't it, or was it the Bean fight that was the final nail in the coffin of Evanders prime? :lol:

But it wasn't all that bad, because Evander lasted til the later rounds against a fat middleweight who has no power, before he got taken out?

Damn you're amusing.

[2smart4u]

Yes, going life and death with 'ham and eggers' like Bowe, Moorer, old Foreman (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned), Bert Cooper and old Holmes (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned) sure did a lot of damage to poor Evander didn't it, or was it the Bean fight that was the final nail in the coffin of Evanders prime? :lol:

But it wasn't all that bad, because Evander lasted til the later rounds against a fat middleweight who has no power, before he got taken out?

Damn you're amusing.:good You tell em WEIGHT ! And dont forget how you just described HOLY when comparing him to certain other fighters ! :yep PS I totally agree with you here !:deal

[Shotgun]

I actually think Holyfield's prime was about 1987 to 1993, that's a LONG PRIME. He didn't have two primes, one at cruiser and one at heavy, that's often the implication of such statements and it makes no sense.
The biggest win of his career came in late 1996, but that's the problem with Holyfield, his career at heavyweight is so uneven. For example he was supposedly "past it" against Moorer and Bowe in the rubber match, but his biggest victory came after that, he looked as good as he ever has against Tyson. He was supposedly well past his prime against Lewis even though he was the heavy betting favorite and even though he was just over two years removed from his biggest win and hadn't been in any particularly draining fights since then

The fact is, the flaws in Holyfield's game were exposed by Bowe and Moorer, and Lewis. Holyfield was basically in his prime when he fought the first two. Against both of them, his lack of power and tendency to fight on guts and instinct rather than using smarts bit him in the ass.

Moorer has a glass jaw, and would not make it halfway through a match with Lewis, Bowe, or Tyson. But Holyfield's lack of punching power hurt him and he got outworked by a smaller and quicker opponent.

Against Bowe in the first fight, he elected to go toe to toe with a bigger, stronger, harder hitting opponent who happened to excel at fighting the style of fight Holyfield favored. In the rematch when he won, Holyfield had Manny Steward in his corner and Manny devised a smart gameplan where Holyfield boxed a lot smarter and narrowly outhustled Bowe, who was out of shape compared to the other two fights.

In the third fight, he abandoned the smarter strategy he used to win the second fight and even though he dropped Bowe and had him in serious trouble with a perfectly placed left hook, he was basically dominated the entire fight and eventually got beaten into submission. That's why he lost those fights, not because he was past it.

Against Tyson, he looked as good as ever because Evander matches up perfectly against Tyson and has the style and chin to frustrate and demoralize Iron Mike, which is why I'd pick Holyfield over Tyson at any point

Against Lewis, Holyfield finally ran into a prime, true blue heavyweight with an excellent outside game. In the first match Lewis made Holyfield look like an amateur by jabbing his head off and thumping him with well timed, well setup straight rights. In the rematch, Lewis seemingly felt he had to mix it up more to impress the judges after being screwed the first time around, and used a foolish strategy of standing and trading more often that played right into Evander's hands so surprise surprise Evander looked a lot better and not so shot as his backers say he was in the first fight. But even then Lewis's superior boxing skills shone through. For example even though the crowd and announcers were creaming themselves over Holyfield winging power shots that were missing, Lewis would counter Holyfield's 10 ineffective misses with a ripping uppercut and Evander would calm down for a while. I had the fight 116-112 for Lewis, I've watched it many times and I have yet to hear anyone who claims Holyfield won explain which 7 rounds Holyfield supposedly took. And often overlooked is that Holyfield should've had at least 1-2 points deducted for repeated intentional headbutts. The best shot Holyfield hit Lewis with all night was a haymaker with his skull :yep

Holyfield backers do everything they can to minimize the significance of every loss he had, while overhyping every single win over a name opponent. Like with Bowe. He was "shot" when he got his ass kicked by Golota, even though he was coming off a big win over Holyfield. Bowe was a flash in the pan, who rose to prominence because he was in the right place and right time, and matched up perfectly against Holyfield. Bowe would've been humiliated by Larry Holmes, and KTFO by Tyson and Lewis, he was fortunate enough to come along at just the right moment when there was a champ he matched up well against. I hear about how "great" Bowe is and all of his supposed greatness is based on 2 wins. Bowe was never great, he was a heavily flawed and incomplete boxer. He had no defense and his outside game was at best adequate. Both of these significant flaws weren't particularly relevant against Holyfield, because Holyfield's power at heavyweight no more than average. He was badly exposed the only time he fought another good big heavyweight with a good outside game. If Golota's power was above average, Bowe would've been KTFO within 4 rounds in each of those fights. But Bowe managed to spend his entire career hidden away from the biggest punchers in the division. There's a reason he turned down a career high payday to fight Lennox Lewis and instead opted to fight Michael Dokes. Was he physically gifted? Yes but he was far from being a great boxer. Holyfield backers, though, have to hype him up excessively because how else can they explain Holy being heavily dominated by him?

Holyfield backers always like to say he was past it when he lost to Moorer but if he was so past it, he wouldn't have scored the biggest win of his career a couple years later

[Doppleganger]

Zakman is like a politition, he tap dances around questions he chooses not to respond to.I don't understand why Holifield get's the free pass of "a faded Evander" even though they are almost the same age and Lewis fought well into his late 30's . And evander couldn't beat John Ruiz in a trilogy but it doesn't count in Zaks book.And as for Toney that was a brutal beating he gave Evander, that was his best fight as a heavyweight.

Ain't that the truth. The guy "twists and turns like a twisty-turny thing" as Melchett from Blackadder II might have said. It's utterly impossible to have a grown-up debate with him. He only responds to the points he feels he can defend and still maintain his position.

[Fighting Weight]

:good You tell em WEIGHT ! And dont forget how you just described HOLY when comparing him to certain other fighters ! :yep PS I totally agree with you here !:deal

Yes but he'd still beat the shit out of Glass WALDO and QUITLAY :hey

[AJAX]

Yes but he'd still beat the shit out of Glass WALDO and QUITLAY :hey

you just can't help yourself can you?

[2smart4u]

Yes but he'd still beat the shit out of Glass WALDO and QUITLAY :hey:yep I love your consistency !

[Fighting Weight]

you just can't help yourself can you?

Nope :klitfanb:

[Zakman]

Yes, going life and death with 'ham and eggers' like Bowe, Moorer, old Foreman (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned), Bert Cooper and old Holmes (older than the Holyfield that Toney owned) sure did a lot of damage to poor Evander didn't it, or was it the Bean fight that was the final nail in the coffin of Evanders prime? :lol:

But it wasn't all that bad, because Evander lasted til the later rounds against a fat middleweight who has no power, before he got taken out?

Damn you're amusing.

Oh puh-leez. George Foreman went on to win the title AFTER he lost virtually every round to Evander, and Larry Holmes upset top contender Ray Mercer after his fight with Holyfield. These guys were clearly not done, as evidenced by their subsequent performance.

Interesting you should mention the Bean fight, because that WAS the first fight where Evander's decline became rather noticeable. His destruction of Moorer was really his last hurrah.

Spin like a top if you must, you will never change the fact that yer boy is the ONLY top line HW champ taken out in the early rounds by fighters on the level of McCall and Rahman when he held a title - the ONLY one. That ALONE puts him below Holyfield. :nod

[Fighting Weight]

,you will never change the fact that yer boy is the ONLY top line HW champ taken out in the early rounds by fighters on the level of McCall and Rahman when he held a title - the ONLY one. That ALONE puts him below Holyfield. :nod

That is such a bullshit statement it's not even funny.

The fact that Lewis owned Holyfield in the ring not once but twice puts him above Holyfield, to anyone with a rational mind. Not to mention how long it took Lewis to get Holyfield and Tyson to grow the balls to get in the ring with him :deal

I'm still waiting for the explanation on that body shot stoppage from cannon-fisted James Toney :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ChampionsForever]

Oh puh-leez. George Foreman went on to win the title AFTER he lost virtually every round to Evander, and Larry Holmes upset top contender Ray Mercer after his fight with Holyfield. These guys were clearly not done, as evidenced by their subsequent performance.

Interesting you should mention the Bean fight, because that WAS the first fight where Evander's decline became rather noticeable. His destruction of Moorer was really his last hurrah.

Spin like a top if you must, you will never change the fact that yer boy is the ONLY top line HW champ taken out in the early rounds by fighters on the level of McCall and Rahman when he held a title - the ONLY one. That ALONE puts him below Holyfield. :nod
How come when describing a fighter like Mercer you use "top contender" and then when describing those of Rachman and Mccalls level you use the term "ham and eggers". Your probably the most biased poster on these boards seeing as Mercer, Rachman and Mccall were all top contenders and on the same level and guess what bar Marciano every HW champ in history at one point or another lost to a top contender :deal

[codeman99998]

That is such a bullshit statement it's not even funny.

The fact that Lewis owned Holyfield in the ring not once but twice puts him above Holyfield, to anyone with a rational mind. Not to mention how long it took Lewis to get Holyfield and Tyson to grow the balls to get in the ring with him :deal

I'm still waiting for the explanation on that body shot stoppage from cannon-fisted James Toney :lol: :lol: :lol:

So, Vernon Forrest is above Shane Mosley?

[AJAX]

Like I said, Lewis only has 2 loses which were by fluke and he avenged brutally.Lewis beat Holyfield twice toe to toe.But when it comes to Holyfield all his loses are OK and really don't count because he wasn't 100% in his prime. To me another sign of greatness is a guy like Lewis who fought at a high level to he was 38 and doesn't get excuse clauses like evander does.

[SweetScienceFan]

I guess that would depend where you rate him. He does not belong in the top 10, so if you rate him there then you would be overrating him. He wasn't even considered a real champion until he won his fight against Holyfield only to get knocked out by Rahman. Won back that belt and then retired after a rocky fight with V. Klitschko. Not really top 10 all time material.

[codeman99998]

I guess that would depend where you rate him. He does not belong in the top 10, so if you rate him there then you would be overrating him. He wasn't even considered a real champion until he won his fight against Holyfield only to get knocked out by Rahman. Won back that belt and then retired after a rocky fight with V. Klitschko. Not really top 10 all time material.

Go for it! All you need is nine.

[Fighting Weight]

So, Vernon Forrest is above Shane Mosley?

That's hardly a like-for-like comparison now is it?

[Fighting Weight]

I guess that would depend where you rate him. He does not belong in the top 10, so if you rate him there then you would be overrating him. He wasn't even considered a real champion until he won his fight against Holyfield only to get knocked out by Rahman. Won back that belt and then retired after a rocky fight with V. Klitschko. Not really top 10 all time material.

Olympic Champion
3 time heavyweight champion.
Beat every man he ever faced in the ring.
Held a version of the title from 1992 - 2003/4 and was undisputed champion until he was 37/38 years old.

As has been said, name 10 better.

[AJAX]

Olympic Champion
3 time heavyweight champion.
Beat every man he ever faced in the ring.
Held a version of the title from 1992 - 2003/4 and was undisputed champion until he was 37/38 years old.

As has been said, name 10 better.

easily top 10, and not overrated, could have easily been undefeated his whole career.

[Zakman]

How come when describing a fighter like Mercer you use "top contender" and then when describing those of Rachman and Mccalls level you use the term "ham and eggers". Your probably the most biased poster on these boards seeing as Mercer, Rachman and Mccall were all top contenders and on the same level and guess what bar Marciano every HW champ in history at one point or another lost to a top contender :deal

Ray Mercer was a much better fighter than either McCall OR Rahman. Mercer was an Olympic champion, McCall was a sparing partner. If you'd followed the sport back in the 90s, you'd know they were at two different levels.

Rahman I don't think even HAD an amatuer career - if he did, it wasn't much. Mercer was viewed in the early 90s as just a slight step below Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe.

That's the problem when people haven't lived through an era - they look at the ratings and assume these guys were all equivilant. Believe me, losing to McCall and Rahman was quite a different thing that losing to Mercer. Lewis acutally did that too, but got a very debatable decision. Holyfield, on the other hand, was the first guy to put the iron-chinned Mercer on the canvas.:yep

[The Italarican]

Ray Mercer was a much better fighter than either McCall OR Rahman. Mercer was an Olympic champion, McCall was a sparing partner. If you'd followed the sport back in the 90s, you'd know they were at two different levels.

Rahman I don't think even HAD an amatuer career - if he did, it wasn't much. Mercer was viewed in the early 90s as just a slight step below Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you can't use this as reasoning that Mercer was a much better opponent than McCall or Rahman when you said this in the same thread:

Oh, puh-leez. When will you kids learn that amateur boxing has NO bearing on the pros. None. Oh, and neither does sparing, btw! I love that one too!:patsch

[Shotgun]

Holyfield, on the other hand, was the first guy to put the iron-chinned Mercer on the canvas.:yep

From a body shot though :hey

[Zakman]

As has been said, name 10 better.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Frazier

And that's just for starters!:lol:

[Zakman]

I understand what you're trying to say, but you can't use this as reasoning that Mercer was a much better opponent than McCall or Rahman when you said this in the same thread:

I'm not saying that his accomplishments in the amateurs make him better, what I'm saying is that his superior skills make him better.

And this observation is consistent with the dominant understandings both at the time, and subsequently. If you look at the ratings for the era by most observers, Mercer is rated among the top 10 routinely. McCall and Rahman?? Nope.

[McGrain]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Frazier


Bro...do you think that these guys would all beat Lewis?

[Fighting Weight]

I understand what you're trying to say, but you can't use this as reasoning that Mercer was a much better opponent than McCall or Rahman when you said this in the same thread:

Oops :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Fighting Weight]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Frazier

And that's just for starters!:lol:

Yes, you've got 4 there. Have another go.

[SweetScienceFan]

Olympic Champion
3 time heavyweight champion.
Beat every man he ever faced in the ring.
Held a version of the title from 1992 - 2003/4 and was undisputed champion until he was 37/38 years old.

As has been said, name 10 better.
Beating every man that he ever faced in the ring doesn't mean much when you consider that he never fought the best guys in his era during their prime. The best guys in Lewis' era were Tyson, Holyfield, Foreman, Moorer, and Bowe. Lewis didn't fight a single one of them in their prime. He only fought two of them all together, and both of them were past it by the time that he did. Then, you look at a guy like Holyfield who didn't beat every man that he ever faced. Yet, he alway fought the best and he fought everyone person that I just mentioned as well. Had Lewis fought Bowe three times, Moorer twice, Tyson twice, Holmes, Foreman, Byrd, Ruiz three times, and so forth, then we maybe saying that he beat every man that he ever faced. Also beating McCall after he came out of crack rehab doesn't reall stand for much does it? Getting a victory over a man via uncontrolled crying in the ring? Not really something to build a legacy around. I don't define Lewis by his two brutal knockout losses, but it is hard to define him by his wins.

[SweetScienceFan]

Bro...do you think that these guys would all beat Lewis?
I don't think that they all beat Lewis. Time, evolution and size are on his side. However, you can't rate all time status on head to head match-ups. You have to rate all time status on accomplishments within their own era.

[Shotgun]

Had Lewis fought Bowe three times, Moorer twice, Tyson twice, Holmes, Foreman, Byrd, Ruiz three times, and so forth, then we maybe saying that he beat every man that he ever faced

Lewis would have had no need to fight Bowe three times, Moorer twice, or Ruiz 3 times. Ruiz and Moorer would've been KTFO so brutally there would be no call for a rematch, and Bowe was afraid to fight Lewis even once

And shame on you for wishing that Lewis had fought the 40+ incarnation of Foreman. Why would you want to see old George beat up that bad? :-(