Harry Wills, where does he belong?

[Muchmoore]

Harry Wills was possibly the best HW to never get a title shot. He was more active and fought better competition during Dempsey's title reign than Dempsey himself, he was basically the champion except he didn't have the belt.

Well my question is, had Dempsey fought Wills, how does the fight go and where does Wills rank all time?

I personally rank him a spot above Dempsey, around 10th all time.

[TommyV]

Around the top 10 certainly. I've seen him ranked around #6 or 7 at times, though he would probably feature slightly lower on my list.

[McGrain]

I agree with you that he should be above Dempsey, and I have him around the same sort of spot as you, too. 10-20 are justifiable depending on how important you think the title is.


Dempsey would be a favourite to beat Wills in my view.

[heehoo]

He belongs among the top ten. It's a crying shame he and Dempsey never fought. I feel Wills would have beaten him, as did Dempsey's management and others, and while Dempsey wanted to fight him, his manager and Tex Rickard persuaded him not to fight him and fight Firpo instead. Another story had Dempsey ducking him, not so much because of his race, but because he felt Wills would beat him. Crying shame, because Wills is truely an all-time great and was the best heavyweight in the world at that time.

[Muchmoore]

How do you guys see a Wills-Dempsey fight going?

[Ted Spoon]

Wills, as fantastic a fighter as he was, is prone to get the sympathy vote.

There's nothing wrong with that; Wills was another classic black fighter who failed to get his deserved opportunity, but this has a disproportionately negative affect on Dempsey's legacy.

Dempsey's management was inclined to let the champ sit on his crown as he commanded the financial plane of boxing, and naturally, nobody likes this period, but the likes of Tommy Gibbons was certainly no slouch and Luis Firpo, take him how you like, was a solid fighter; a real trouble maker in his era.

Simply put, Dempsey impressed far more as a fighter when at the peak of his powers. The folks who saw and wrote about him in 1918/19 were not trying to protect his legacy for the proverbial 'web chat' some 90 years later. He was 'shit hot' and turning respectable fighters into putty.

By contrast, Wills was a very talented and tough, if a little rough; less versatile and explosive. There was always a solid argument to claim a decent amount of adversity in Wills as an opponent, but not a victory to those 'in the know'.

Wills resume is deeper than Dempsey's but not more impressive when you directly compare performance vs. opponent. Wills started to put the hurt on Langford after Fulton had injured his eye, which greatly diminished him as a world class fighter.

[pugilist_boyd]

Kearns Said He Was Going To Make Dempsey A Couple Warm Up Fights And Match Jack Against Wills Which Kearns Said Jack(would Have Put Wills Away) So Although Kearns Was Recently Fired If That Was The Managment Spoken About Above The Remark Is False.although It Wouldnt Have Been Easy I Think Even A Past Prime Dempsey Ko,s Him And A Prime Dempsey Does It Early,wills Was To Slow And Tried To Wrestle. Kearns Stated This Would Be Wills Problem Nobody Let Dempsey Inside And Stayed Standing Very Long

[Loewe]

I have Dempsey in my Tier 3 at hw alongside Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Sonny Liston which means he would rank somewhere between 8 and 11.

[Maxmomer]

I have Dempsey in my Tier 3 at hw alongside Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Sonny Liston which means he would rank somewhere between 8 and 11.

Weren't we talking about Harry Wills?

[Loewe]

Weren't we talking about Harry Wills?
Yeah, I meant Wills and wrote Dempsey. Don´t know why. Dempsey I have lower, Tier 4 equalling a ranking between 12 and 15 alongside with Holyfield, Tyson and Schmeling.

[Muchmoore]

Bump

[mcvey]

Bump
I like Dempsey against Wills ,Harry was a world class fighter for years ,but Dempsey did well with the bigger slower moving fellas,a late stoppage say 11th rd in favour of Jack .

[flamengo]

Wills belongs in the top ten list of "What should have been"..... through no fault of his own.

[he grant]

The myth is that Wills was slow , like a Willard or a Firpo when that was not the case ... Wills was fast and large. Read C. Moyles book on Langford and see what Langford thought about Wills.

Harry Wills was huge, fast, tough, seasoned and hard punching ... he fought and defeated much better opposition than Dempsey did. It is a crime that Dempsey never fought him and a major stigma on his legacy. Think about it, he never fought the far and away number one contender for his whole title reign ...

Who would have won, who knows. Will was six or seven years older. Keep in mind Willard ducked him as well. I honestly do not know who would have won but to lump Wills in with the far less talented big men Dempsey beat is a little too convient for my liking ...

[Rock0052]

Personally, I see Dempsey winning a head to head fight. Even if Wills speed was underrated, Dempsey was faster and he ate up bigger, slower fighters like Wills because he could get inside and utilize an underrated tool- that he's one of the best short area punchers in the sport. I don't think Wills overwhelming him physically would work like it did on many of his opponents.

That said, Wills is getting due respect on here in terms on rankings. I think anything top 20 is a fair spot for him.

[SuzieQ49]

I like Dempsey against Wills ,Harry was a world class fighter for years ,but Dempsey did well with the bigger slower moving fellas,a late stoppage say 11th rd in favour of Jack


no he did well against unskilled slow clusmly big oafs, which is not what wills was at all. he was a very talented fast hard hitting big heavyweight, and if firpo could practically knockout dempsey if not for the typewriter, wills has a strong chance at beating jack.

[mcvey]

The myth is that Wills was slow , like a Willard or a Firpo when that was not the case ... Wills was fast and large. Read C. Moyles book on Langford and see what Langford thought about Wills.

Harry Wills was huge, fast, tough, seasoned and hard punching ... he fought and defeated much better opposition than Dempsey did. It is a crime that Dempsey never fought him and a major stigma on his legacy. Think about it, he never fought the far and away number one contender for his whole title reign ...

Who would have won, who knows. Will was six or seven years older. Keep in mind Willard ducked him as well. I honestly do not know who would have won but to lump Wills in with the far less talented big men Dempsey beat is a little too convient for my liking ...
I have been looking at Wills record.He fought all the names of his era except for Dempsey ,Godfrey ,and Willard,but close inspection tells us thatLangford whom he fought 16 times was past his best.
their first fight in 1914 was won by the 25lbs heavier Wills ,Langford was 31,they rematched 6 months later and langford kod himin14 rds,then beat him on points a month later.After this they swap winsWillstakes the next two fights by dec,but is kod in 19rds inthe next fight by an allmost 33 year old Sam,Wills takes the next two,and Langford manges a draw after this at the age of34 this is his last hurrah,Wills dopminates the rest of the series they meet 7 more times one a no contest , Wills wins alll the others,but Langford is now35 and 36.Clearly Wills dominated an OLD Langford.Like wise Jeanette ,Wills fought him3 times ,with 3 wins,but Jeanette was 34,35 and 40 ,years old.Against McveyWills had 5 fights winning2 losing 2 ,one no contest,Mcvey at 30 and 31 wins the first 2Wills takes the next 2 when Mcvey is31 and 34 ,they have a nocontest when Mcvey is 36 which results in them both being barred for life from Philadelphia.The other Black challengers Wills beat such as Jeff Clark follow a similar pattern Clark at 272 draws the first then aged 30to 35 loses the remaining 8.Wills has ako in 1 rd ovwer Denver Ed Martin ,but Martin was 40 years old ,it was his last fight,Likewise Gunboat Smith was kod in1 rd in Cuba ,Smith was 34 and as he said "I went down for the boat ride".A ko over Kid Norfolk is on Wills resume ,but Norfolk was 36 lbs lighter.Win s over Dempsey opponent Firpo by nws dec in 12 is good ,but Dempsey had destroyed Firpo in 2 rds a year earlier.Similarly Wills win over Bartley Madden by dec was topped a year later when Tunney kod Madden in 3 rds.To sum up I see a lot of good names on Wills record ,but the majority of thre Black challengers he beat were past their best the series with Bill Tate gave Wills 4 wins out of7 fights ,but Tate was ona losing record of 18 -20-3 and was primarily known as a Dempsey sparring partner. Wills record on closer inspection doesnt look as good as a cursory glance would show .I exclude his losses to Sharkey and Uzcudun ,because he was clearly past his best ,but then so were ,many of those he beat.Dempsey smokes him imo.

[mcvey]

no he did well against unskilled slow clusmly big oafs, which is not what wills was at all. he was a very talented fast hard hitting big heavyweight, and if firpo could practically knockout dempsey if not for the typewriter, wills has a strong chance at beating jack.
Fulton wasnt slow or clumsy,he was a fast sharp shooting jabber who could hit,what happened when he fought Dempsey?

[mcvey]

I have been looking at Wills record.He fought all the names of his era except for Dempsey ,Godfrey ,and Willard,but close inspection tells us thatLangford whom he fought 16 times was past his best.
their first fight in 1914 was won by the 25lbs heavier Wills ,Langford was 31,they rematched 6 months later and langford kod himin14 rds,then beat him on points a month later.After this they swap winsWillstakes the next two fights by dec,but is kod in 19rds inthe next fight by an allmost 33 year old Sam,Wills takes the next two,and Langford manges a draw after this at the age of34 this is his last hurrah,Wills dopminates the rest of the series they meet 7 more times one a no contest , Wills wins alll the others,but Langford is now35 and 36.Clearly Wills dominated an OLD Langford.Like wise Jeanette ,Wills fought him3 times ,with 3 wins,but Jeanette was 34,35 and 40 ,years old.Against McveyWills had 5 fights winning2 losing 2 ,one no contest,Mcvey at 30 and 31 wins the first 2Wills takes the next 2 when Mcvey is31 and 34 ,they have a nocontest when Mcvey is 36 which results in them both being barred for life from Philadelphia.The other Black challengers Wills beat such as Jeff Clark follow a similar pattern Clark at 272 draws the first then aged 30to 35 loses the remaining 8.Wills has ako in 1 rd ovwer Denver Ed Martin ,but Martin was 40 years old ,it was his last fight,Likewise Gunboat Smith was kod in1 rd in Cuba ,Smith was 34 and as he said "I went down for the boat ride".A ko over Kid Norfolk is on Wills resume ,but Norfolk was 36 lbs lighter.Win s over Dempsey opponent Firpo by nws dec in 12 is good ,but Dempsey had destroyed Firpo in 2 rds a year earlier.Similarly Wills win over Bartley Madden by dec was topped a year later when Tunney kod Madden in 3 rds.To sum up I see a lot of good names on Wills record ,but the majority of thre Black challengers he beat were past their best the series with Bill Tate gave Wills 4 wins out of7 fights ,but Tate was ona losing record of 18 -20-3 and was primarily known as a Dempsey sparring partner. Wills record on closer inspection doesnt look as good as a cursory glance would show .I exclude his losses to Sharkey and Uzcudun ,because he was clearly past his best ,but then so were ,many of those he beat.Dempsey smokes him imo.
Just like to add that having gone over Wills record and opponents I rate Langford above him and Mcvey at least on a par,and Jeannete equal if not better.Going further back I would rate Peter Jackson over Wills too.

[McGrain]

Just like to add that having gone over Wills record and opponents I rate Langford above him and Mcvey at least on a par,and Jeannete equal if not better.Going further back I would rate Peter Jackson over Wills too.

Very interesting.

[he grant]

Langford said Wills had his number. He was too big and too good. Maybe at the start of their series Langford was already a bit long in the tooth but he was still kicking the shit out of everyone else. That being said I have Sam a better all time pound for pound as he was half Wills size ... however, Dempsey has a huge asterick next to his name for ducking this guy ... it was terrible and while it does not matter to average fans, historians to the man know the facts ...

[mcvey]

Langford said Wills had his number. He was too big and too good. Maybe at the start of their series Langford was already a bit long in the tooth but he was still kicking the shit out of everyone else. That being said I have Sam a better all time pound for pound as he was half Wills size ... however, Dempsey has a huge asterick next to his name for ducking this guy ... it was terrible and while it does not matter to average fans, historians to the man know the facts ...
But did Dempsey duck Wills? He signed to fight him but Rickard ,afraid of a backlash similar to the Jeffries Johnson fight didnt want to promote it.Likewise Commissioner Muldoon ,while publicly pushing for the match ,privately discouraged it.It's a shame it never happened ,not least because I think Dempsey would have solidified his reputation with the critics and fans and earned himself a place in the top 5 ,which is where he is for me.It was an injustice to Wills and ultimately harmed Dempsey too,probably more than Wills who maybe rated higher than he deserves,if people look closely at how old the opponents were in his "best wins".

[he grant]

Dempsey allowed Wills to be avoided ... remember this was not for a year or two, it was his whole time as champ ... somewhere in there Dempsey had to think why fight this guy if I do not have to ... Dempsey was not a trained ape. He did what he wanted to do like leave Kearns ... I just don't buy it ... just like I don't write Wills off as another slow, easy mark ... SQ is dead on and I agree.

[mcvey]

Dempsey allowed Wills to be avoided ... remember this was not for a year or two, it was his whole time as champ ... somewhere in there Dempsey had to think why fight this guy if I do not have to ... Dempsey was not a trained ape. He did what he wanted to do like leave Kearns ... I just don't buy it ... just like I don't write Wills off as another slow, easy mark ... SQ is dead on and I agree.
I don't think he would be easy for Dempsey at all ,possibly he tioughest defence ,but a winning ione .I think Dempsey ,up until he married Estelle Taylor was in thrall to Kearns and did pretty much what he told him , even aping the way he dressed.

[janitor]

[quote=Muchmoore]
Well my question is, had Dempsey fought Wills, how does the fight go


In order to answer that we would have to establish exactly what kind of fighter Wills was.

Hie was big, durable, technicaly adept and caried concusive power in each hand.

He was verry physicaly strong and relided extensivley on holding which gave him an ugly but efective style which did not endear him to the press.

He worked at long range and clinched when his oponent got in close. This made him verry effective against smaller fighters but he also took care of business against a number of fighters bigger than himself and some of them were fairly technicaly adept.


I personally rank him a spot above Dempsey, around 10th all time.


Certainly a plausible position.

Wheter or not this is the case I tend to think that Dempsey had the stylistic edge.

Of course you never know...................

[Muchmoore]

[quote]

Hie was big, durable, technicaly adept and caried concusive power in each hand.

He was verry physicaly strong and relided extensivley on holding which gave him an ugly but efective style which did not endear him to the press.

He worked at long range and clinched when his oponent got in close. This made him verry effective against smaller fighters but he also took care of business against a number of fighters bigger than himself and some of them were fairly technicaly adept.



Much like an early 1900s Wladimir Klitschko, except much more durable.

Wills style of boxing and size may have allowed him to match up better against modern ATGs (meaning post 1960) than Dempsey actually.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

Much like an early 1900s Wladimir Klitschko, except much more durable.

Wills style of boxing and size may have allowed him to match up better against modern ATGs (meaning post 1960) than Dempsey actually.

I was thinking along the same lines.

A smaller but more durable Wlad with a few extra tricks and an intelect to match.

[pugilist_boyd]

if wills is a smaller wlad with more tricks,than dempsey is a taller, lighter,tyson with more heart/wills liked to wrestle and nobody as ive stated wrestled with dempsey and stayed standing

[marciano1952]

How do you guys see a Wills-Dempsey fight going?

Dempsey had his best fights against Big Stronge Slow HW's so I would be Confadent in him Beating Wills