Monte Cox's all time divisional ratings

[SuzieQ49]

Heavyweight Ratings


Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier

Here are the Rest

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[Mendoza]

foreman is about 3 ↑↑↑ 3 places too high
I agree that Foreman is too high. Nevertheless, the ratings as a group for the weight classes are good.

Cox has evolved in his thinking ,and seems more fair toward modern fighters as of late at heavyweight.

[Muchmoore]

Foreman is a few spots too high and Marciano DEFINENTLY deserves to be somewhere in there.

[SuzieQ49]

Nevertheless, the ratings as a group for the weight classes are good.


ur kidding right? Leaving Marciano out of any top 10 is utterly laughable when you look at his far superior accomplishments to those listed in the top 10. Cox is extremley bias against rock, so Im not suprised.

[TommyV]

I have no real objection to the heavies bar Foreman, who should be in the top 10 but 3 is way too high I feel. Interesting he missed out Marciano I'm sure a few will have a thing or two to say about that.

Just scrolling quickly through the rest, I can't see the case for having Langford, although a fantastic fighter - my p4p #1 - above Charles at light-heavy, even though light-heavy was said to be his best weight. Charles I'd have above Tunney aswell. Moore usually a bit higher also.

Fitzsimmons rates highly on a p4p scale but he shouldn't be above really any of the other middleweights mentioned, particularly not Monzon and Hagler.

His welter list looks pretty decent, no real objections.

Not sure why he's placed Pryor in his light-weights list, I would usually have Ike Williams a bit higher. I'd probably have Saddler above Arguello at feather aswell, Fighting Harada should be in the bantam rankings a few places behind Jofre and not in the flyweight rankings.

His all-time p4p top 10.

Well his is:

1 Ray Robinson
2 Joe Gans
3 Harry Greb
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Joe Louis
6 Muhammad Ali
7 Sam Langford
8 Benny Leonard
9 Roberto Duran
10 Ray Leonard

Mine is:

1 Sam Langford
2 Harry Greb
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Roberto Duran
6 Ezzard Charles
7 Benny Leonard
8 Muhammad Ali
9 Mickey Walker
10 Bob Fitzsimmons

No way should Joe Gans be at #2, although I would have him just outside my top 10, around 12-16 or so. Langford should be in the top 4. Louis is too high imo. I wouldn't argue with the places of Robinson, Greb, Ali (although he should probably be a couple of places lower), both Leonards (although I feel Sugar Ray should be a few places lower, around 12-14) and Duran (although I think he should be slightly higher).

[Maxmomer]

Mike Tyson but no Marciano is stupid. Foreman that high up is also stupid. Lewis should also be higher, and I have Ali at one with Louis at two.

[mcvey]

Heavyweight Ratings


Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier

Here are the Rest

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Pleasantly surprised to see Johnson there,I think Big George is a little fllattered ,and I could not put Frazier above Marciano,I think I would exclude Tyson as his career was a bit like a comet ,I prefer longevity,But a case can be argued for allmost all of those there I feel.And I like Cox's stuff.

[Mendoza]

Pleasantly surprised to see Johnson there,I think Big George is a little fllattered ,and I could not put Frazier above Marciano,I think I would exclude Tyson as his career was a bit like a comet ,I prefer longevity,But a case can be argued for allmost all of those there I feel.And I like Cox's stuff.

I chit-chat with Monte from time to time. He's a very good historian, and mostly open midned. Monte thinks Tyson would be too much for many old timers. This is avant guard among seasoned historians.

Monte has also moved Johnson down a few notches and says he might fall further, while at the same time is starting to give Lewis his due.

[Russell]

Joe Gans 2 all time P4P?

Ehhhhhhh.

[Sweet Pea]

Harada was a better Flyweight than Bantam, in terms of effectiveness. He'd have beaten anyone to fight there IMO.

[natonic]

I didn't expect to agree with everything in the list (which I didn't), but the rankings as a whole look pretty good. Like mentioned several times above, Marciano should be in there and Foreman looks too high.

[Marciano Frazier]

Of the two commonly-raised objections in this thread, I agree that Marciano should be on the list, of course (and Cox used to have Marciano in the top 10, too, but it appears he's swapped Marciano for Frazier, who I also have in the top 10, though below him), but I actually agree with Cox's placement of Foreman. I think George is underrated.

[Stonehands89]

Of the two commonly-raised objections in this thread, I agree that Marciano should be on the list, of course (and Cox used to have Marciano in the top 10, too, but it appears he's swapped Marciano for Frazier, who I also have in the top 10, though below him), but I actually agree with Cox's placement of Foreman. I think George is underrated.
I agree -particularly out here. Foreman's reclamation 20 years after the fact against an undefeated heavy-handed southpaw propels him upward in my opinion. No one other HW that I think of could have done that at age 45.

[mcvey]

I'm surprised Johnson makes the top 10 at all most people rate him pretty low. I feel Lewis will enhance his reputation as years go by.

[TommyV]

Joe Gans 2 all time P4P?

Ehhhhhhh.

That's all that really needs to be said lol.

[Addie]

Heavyweight Ratings

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Here are the Rest

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Any list that has Joe Louis above Muhammad Ali loses its credibility almost immediately.

Joe Frazier should be above Mike Tyson, George Foreman should be lower as should Holmes.

[Bummy Davis]

I think its a poor list putting Joe Louis @ # 1 is Good and Ali @ 2, leaving Marciano out is either Bias or a blunder, Foreman @ 4, mabey if you could blend the old version with the young version but Liston @ 5, Johnson @ 7....he is short of any kind of expert

[Senya13]

A couple of Joe Gans' specialists on this thread, I see?

[Loewe]

Hm, I think all-around these are quite decent lists when it comes to who is in the Top10 - not the exact placements though. There are a few exceptions but all in all quite decent. I was a bit surprised that he really seems to try to be objectieve towards today´s fighters and didn´t dwell in the past - for example Pacman inside the fw top10.

[Sizzle]

It's OK - But I think Lennox is too high, and Jack Johnson should be a bit higher, not to mention the absence of Marciano.

[McGrain]

Heavyweight Ratings

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Foreman is way to high. Why can Dempsey at #6 be justified and yet there is no sign of Marciano? That reeks a bit. No Jeffries?

[McGrain]

Archie Moore at #6 seems a bit silly, below Loughran?

Fitzsimmons above Monzon at Middle, but Jeffries is not on the HW because he doesn't have enough quality footage?

I rather like his WW list. Napoles above Gavilian? Any opinions on this?

I rather like quite a few of the lower weight ratings, actually, but again, he has George Dixon on his Bantam list, and there is sure a shit less footage on him than on Jeffries.

Mixed.

[TommyV]

A couple of Joe Gans' specialists on this thread, I see?

Not an expert but I know enough about the guy to know he's not the p4p #2 of all-time. I would rate him somewhere between 12-15, I would not argue with him being placed in the top 10 but at #2, no way.

The guy was an offensive master, great punching power and technique - he threw almost every punch perfectly. Great handspeed aswell. He could pick an opponent of with pin-point accurate pot-shots of a counter or land blistering combinations with power behind them. Defensively he was very good aswell, he guarded himself well and uses his upper body speed to quickly duck and pick off punches.

So on ability he ranks pretty highly as he seems an almost complete fight, and H2H aswell as with his overall defensive capabilities and offensive arsenal he would beat pretty much anyone at lightweight.

It's his resume which is lacking though, the first time he stepped up to fight for the lightweight title against Frank Ernes, by no means a great fighter, he was stopped in 12. Then the next time, he was KO'd by the much smaller Terry McGovern, although a great fighter he was he weighed in around 10lbs less. He did eventually avenge his loss to Ernes, knocking him out in the 1st and claiming the title in the process.

After this though the lack of names continued, Dave Holly is a decent win on his record but not much more, Joe Grim is recognisable but only for being a low level journeyman with a fantastic chin. He does have a win over Jack Blackburn, arguably a top 15 lightweight of all-time, though this was very, very early in Blackburn's career. He then lost to the likes of Sam Langford and Battling Nelson, by no means embarassing losses, although the losses to the latter are a bit disappointing as I would expect Gans to beat Nelson but he lost both by KO, but this again highlights the lack of names on his record and the fact that when he stepped up to fight likes of Langford, Nelson, McGovern etc, he usually lost and usually got stopped in the process.

He did actually draw with Barbados Joe Walcott, he was actually given the edge in rounds and this probably rate among his best performances, whoever this was during the period of which Barbados Joe began to lose a string of fights to merely contender types and Gans really should of beaten him comfortably at this stage. He also has a win over Nelson, however this was a DQ loss on Nelson's part so it remains to be seen whether or not the win can really be classed as legit.

On ability and H2H he is right up their with the best, however his resume is too lacking for him to be rated above the likes of Langford, Greb, Robinson, Armstrong or Ezzard Charles. :good

[SuzieQ49]

Ya archie at 6 is ridiculous, i think him and charles are a lock for top 2

[McGrain]

Ya archie at 6 is ridiculous, i think him and charles are a lock for top 2

Depends on what you make of Langford, but you certainly can't sniff at this top two.


WW list is good -

01 - Ray Robinson
02 - Ray Leonard
03 - Mickey Wlaker
04 - Thomas Hearns
05 - Joe Walcott
06 - Jose Napoles
07 - Kid Gavilian
08 - Emile Grifith
09 - Ted Kid Lewis
10 - Luis Rodriguez


Lewis but no Britton? Napoles above Gavilian? Hearns is way to high...but the list is OK.

Anyone?

[Minotauro]

Pryor is ranked very high at lightweight and Ike Williams is low and he doesn't have Ortiz on his lightweight list. Also as feather he has Pacman but not Saldivar, Philadelphia Jack O’Brien shouldn't be top ten light heavy guys like Dillon and Johnson deserve it more and Tunney should be below Charles who looks better on film and has a better resume.

Interesting he only ranks fighters at one weight no Greb or Fitz at light heavy and no Robinson or Walker at middle. And he only ranks Armstrong at feather.

[Bummy Davis]

Ya archie at 6 is ridiculous, i think him and charles are a lock for top 2


I agree, top 3 for sure but who would rate higher...I think if he rate Moore and Charles 1 or 2 , it give Rocky more Cred and Cox is Biased obviously against the 50's

[mcvey]

Not an expert but I know enough about the guy to know he's not the p4p #2 of all-time. I would rate him somewhere between 12-15, I would not argue with him being placed in the top 10 but at #2, no way.

The guy was an offensive master, great punching power and technique - he threw almost every punch perfectly. Great handspeed aswell. He could pick an opponent of with pin-point accurate pot-shots of a counter or land blistering combinations with power behind them. Defensively he was very good aswell, he guarded himself well and uses his upper body speed to quickly duck and pick off punches.

So on ability he ranks pretty highly as he seems an almost complete fight, and H2H aswell as with his overall defensive capabilities and offensive arsenal he would beat pretty much anyone at lightweight.

It's his resume which is lacking though, the first time he stepped up to fight for the lightweight title against Frank Ernes, by no means a great fighter, he was stopped in 12. Then the next time, he was KO'd by the much smaller Terry McGovern, although a great fighter he was he weighed in around 10lbs less. He did eventually avenge his loss to Ernes, knocking him out in the 1st and claiming the title in the process.

After this though the lack of names continued, Dave Holly is a decent win on his record but not much more, Joe Grim is recognisable but only for being a low level journeyman with a fantastic chin. He does have a win over Jack Blackburn, arguably a top 15 lightweight of all-time, though this was very, very early in Blackburn's career. He then lost to the likes of Sam Langford and Battling Nelson, by no means embarassing losses, although the losses to the latter are a bit disappointing as I would expect Gans to beat Nelson but he lost both by KO, but this again highlights the lack of names on his record and the fact that when he stepped up to fight likes of Langford, Nelson, McGovern etc, he usually lost and usually got stopped in the process.

He did actually draw with Barbados Joe Walcott, he was actually given the edge in rounds and this probably rate among his best performances, whoever this was during the period of which Barbados Joe began to lose a string of fights to merely contender types and Gans really should of beaten him comfortably at this stage. He also has a win over Nelson, however this was a DQ loss on Nelson's part so it remains to be seen whether or not the win can really be classed as legit.

On ability and H2H he is right up their with the best, however his resume is too lacking for him to be rated above the likes of Langford, Greb, Robinson, Armstrong or Ezzard Charles. :good
Just to point out quite a few people believe the first Erne Fight and the Mcgovern bout were fixes,the Mcgovern one can seen on YOU TUBE.Gans was suffering from a terminal illness when he fought Nelson ,I think it was TB. But I agree Gans is too high ,though he makes my no2 at Lightweight.

[mcvey]

Heavyweight Ratings


Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier

Here are the Rest

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Looking over the other divisions I see a couple of glaring anomalies .Jack O Brien at no 10 LH? OBrien took the title off a 43 year old Fitz,never defended it and was twice kod by Middle king Ketchel ,he doesnt belong here imo.Ike Williams a monster is rated only 10th at Lightweight and no Ortiz or Brown there either.Other Rankings are pretty acceptable in the divisions below Heavy ,imo.

[Senya13]

Erne was a great fighter, Dixon, Griffo, Downey, Lavigne, Hawkins, McFadden, O'Brien, that's a top-notch resume for any epoch, and he lost only to Dixon of these.

Erne fight was an accident, an injury that he desided not to risk fighting with. Erne was avoiding a re-match for 2 years.

McGovern was the most obvious and commonly accepted fix (it was reported in NY World the day before the fight that black population was betting large sums on Gans getting stopped, so that the mayor summoned Gans' manager to warn him that he wouldn't tolerate it).

Supposed "lack" of names after winning the title is a laughable claim to say the least. McFadden, McPartland, Holly, Crosby, Fitzgerald, Blackburn, Walcott (pretty much all journalists thought Gans whipped Walcott convincingly), Britt, Sullivan, W. Lewis, Nelson, Herman (despite his showing in Gans' fight, look at whom he faced and either drew or won against prior to facing Gans: Forbes, Y. Erne, H. Lewis, Herrera, Attell, Yanger).

Jack Blackburn was not a lightweight, he was a welterweight.

The first Nelson fight proved all that was needed to be known about Gans. Despite having to fulfil a million outrageous demands enforced by Nolan (Nelson's manager), he convinsingly outboxed and outpunched Nelson, despite the latter fighting very dirty and despite the injuries. You question if it was legit? Here's what the referee of the fight wrote in his Oakland Tribune sporting section: "It was apparent to all in the arena that during the last two round Nelson was trying to lose on a foul, and the one that lost the fight for him looked premeditated. There was no possible chance for anyone to say that the fight was not on the square--with the exception of the foul punch--and it was bitterly fought from start to finish."
Langford and Greb have more names on their resumes, argueably Charles too (pretty much anyone's resume pales compared to these), but not Robinson or, especially, Armstrong (who's resume is rather mediocre compared to the best in history).