why was vargas ever considered elite?

[Nawfal]

ive never understood how people were so high on vargas.

im looking at his boxrec record and the only thing that stands out, is that he lost by KO to the 3 best fighters he has fought: ODLH, Trinidad, Mosely (i know he was past his prime but so was mosely)

And the significant wins are:
-A green winky wright, and many thought vargas lost this
-quartey (just after he had lost to odlh)

i dont rate campas, castillejo, and vanderpool too highly

so, please tell me how this guy was ever considered elite

was it the effort he put in during his losses to trinidad and the nature of the stoppage? (low blows etc)

[Thread Stealer]

ive never understood how people were so high on vargas.

im looking at his boxrec record and the only thing that stands out, is that he lost by KO to the 3 best fighters he has fought: ODLH, Trinidad, Mosely (i know he was past his prime but so was mosely)

And the significant wins are:
-A green winky wright, and many thought vargas lost this
-quartey (just after he had lost to odlh)

i dont rate campas, castillejo, and vanderpool too highly

so, please tell me how this guy was ever considered elite

was it the effort he put in during his losses to trinidad and the nature of the stoppage? (low blows etc)

Basically because he was a highly touted amateur who won a world title pretty fast and showed pretty good skills in addition to his heart and fighting temperment.

Winky (who was not green as you said) didn't look like a good performance at the time, but we saw later how good Winky really is and the fight was close even if you disagreed with the decision (I had it 7-5 for W.W.)

It's true that Quartey hadn't fought in over a year and was moving up, but he was also inactive for a year and a half when he fought Oscar and arguably won the fight. Vargas beat Quartey clearly, and he showed a good assortment of skills, even outjabbing Quartey.

[markbrooklyn]

I don't think he was every actually considered "Elite". He was very good and had alot of promise and was also a fan pleasing fighter the way he fought but I don't think people considered him Elite.

[Ramshall1]

because he was, his elite time was short lived but he was elite.

[David B]

a close fight with Winky

the first one who clearly beat Quartey

he was rushed to soon by his management,he should have waited another year before fighting Tito

[Nawfal]

Basically because he was a highly touted amateur who won a world title pretty fast and showed pretty good skills in addition to his heart and fighting temperment.

Winky (who was not green as you said) didn't look like a good performance at the time, but we saw later how good Winky really is and the fight was close even if you disagreed with the decision (I had it 7-5 for W.W.)

It's true that Quartey hadn't fought in over a year and was moving up, but he was also inactive for a year and a half when he fought Oscar and arguably won the fight. Vargas beat Quartey clearly, and he showed a good assortment of skills, even outjabbing Quartey.

the fight with winky was close, but the winky that he fought was not the same winky we know as the p4per today.

yes quartey was a decent win, but as you said he was inactive and had just been beaten by odlh even though that may have been questionable.

but thats it from what i see.

i think people regard him so highly because of what they thought they were seeing rather than what he actually achieved.

[Thread Stealer]

the fight with winky was close, but the winky that he fought was not the same winky we know as the p4per today.


Winky was 28 and had 41 pro fights. He wasn't green, he just wasn't really known.

And he's probably on the downside right now, really.

[Pimp C]

No he was a B+ boxer at best.

[Ramshall1]

His only losses are against probably HOF'ers and was highly competative in all but the second Shane bout. . . while he may not be considered "great" - he was obviously "elite" IMO.

[ChampionsForever]

Vargas was a really good fighter, hell I cant think of many who could come back from a punch like the one Tito gave him 20 seconds into their fight, other than hes last fight all hes losing efforts have always been close fights where he went to hell and back. Id consider him a very good fighter just out of the leagues of the all time greats.

[Club Fighter]

You're saying that because you're looking at his boxing record instead of watching his fights. His career is finished now, but in the late nineties he was definitely an elite fighter. The reinvented version of him that we see now is only a mere shell of his former self. As someone said above me, he was just brought along a little too quickly that's all.

[TIGEREDGE]

he beat quartey convincingly. won a close fight with winky wright. give trinidad hell and oscar dlh. was shot when he fought mosley

Thomas Hearns lost to the only two elite fighters he ever thought. you goin to tell us that he wasn't elite

[digiram]

he beat quartey convincingly. won a close fight with winky wright. give trinidad hell and oscar dlh. was shot when he fought mosley

Thomas Hearns lost to the only two elite fighters he ever thought. you goin to tell us that he wasn't elite

I was going to mention the Tommy Hearns comparison as well. :good

According to OP, Tommy was just a journeyman as well.

[eltorrente]

I thought he was pretty good, but certainly not "elite". I was never really that impressed by him, though he had a few good victories. He was overrated IMO.

[Shotgun]

he beat quartey convincingly. won a close fight with winky wright. give trinidad hell and oscar dlh. was shot when he fought mosley

Thomas Hearns lost to the only two elite fighters he ever thought. you goin to tell us that he wasn't elite

Tommy Hearns destroyed Duran, so not quite. But still Vargas's only losses were against future HOF fighters, and were all very competetive except for the second fight against Mosley

He beat Winky too, fair and square. The controversy surrounding that fight is overblown, Vargas decisively won the last 3 rounds and the fight was very close up until that point. You'd have to have Winky up 7-2 going into the championship rounds to give him the win and it wasn't that lopsided

[Ramshall1]

Vargas was a really good fighter, hell I cant think of many who could come back from a punch like the one Tito gave him 20 seconds into their fight, other than hes last fight all hes losing efforts have always been close fights where he went to hell and back. Id consider him a very good fighter just out of the leagues of the all time greats.

agreed.

[Vantage_West]

in his early stages of his career he was a true force. some see him as an easy opponant...the guy was a BAD BAD MAN. he had dinamite in his fists he was a real warrior and was always exiting..but sadly he was thrown into the deep end and drowned i feel he was elite but was distorted by being put to fire too quickly and he was scorched.

he actaully did rather well against tito though, he was knocked down only 2 times coming into the 12th round and had knocked tito down once.he had lost the first 3 rounds he came back mid rounds and was equal at the 7th then it was very closly contested but tito was landing the better cleaner punches

i had it 4-6 to tito ...thats not alot compared to what he did to other fighters.



sadly he is an old man at 29

[Jose FM]

Cause while he was on steriods he was very powerful, after a while the steriods wore down his skills and strenghts...

[psychopath]

Vargas is more of an elite than Cotto will ever be.

Vargas was a borderline Elite who fought with pure passion, and nobody can take that away from him. He's an overachiever and mayorga is in deep trouble.

Pretending again? What the fuck do you know about Vargas? :think

Fucki'n Vargas lost all his big fights and you're comparing him to Cotto? Shit . . . you're really a boxing genius.

:lol: :rofl

[psychopath]

:lol: Why are you following me around like a little bitch? :lol: I aint one of your tourists that you and your buddies like to follow around, asking for american bubblegums and shit. :rofl

Looks like i have to put this lesson on ya again.. BItch..

First of all I never said that Vargas was an elite. I said he was a borderline elite ok bitch?

Comparing Vargas to Cotto? WTF are you saying that Cotto accomplished more than vargas did so far??? You dumb cunt, son of a hoar.. Vargas was never babied like Cotto and he only lost to the elite you piece of shit, and that's only because he was rushed..

Who the fuck did Cotto ever beat? He turned pro in 01 and his first victory against an elite is against Judah in 07? And he also had to cheat to win so get outa here with all your bullshit homee before I send you next to your mom.

So hell yea im comparing Vargas to Cotto you dumb cunt...

What a dumbass. Again, you know nothing about this sport.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah I know nothing about the sports and you're a genius. :rofl

Learn to live by it shithead . . . you'll get humilated anywhere I found you.

Who has Cotto beaten? All the 39 fighters he have met in the ring.

:good :hi:

[psychopath]

U enjoy digging your own grave and get dicksmacked huh? Dumbass I swear..lol

Yea Cotto has 39 victories against average fightersand lightweight contenders like sosa except for one, Judah who was coming off a 15 month layoff and even that was a questionable victory so get the fuck outa here with all your amateurish posts homey..

Go ask you mom for some lalaby so something. :hi:

Yeah I enjoy bitchslapping you. :yep

:hi: :good

[psychopath]

Oh no wow... :rofl You're a foo you know that? YOu think you're impressing when in fact you aint impressing nobody.. Nobody is laughing with you except for a few other fellow cockroaches like yourself so I suggest you try harder... :nono

Bitchslapping is something I do to you and your mom when I get bored..

Nobody " bitchslaps " me homey.. :deal

What's even funnier is that you;ve been avoiding my challenge all along like a little bitch.. I said meet me at a gym so we can spar you remember? scared little bitch.

The fact is that you can say this and that behind your computer but you wouldn't have the balls to say the things you are saying if we were in the same room standing face to face. :lol:

You know where Im located bitch so if you're around, meet me up or are you going to make up a lie and say that you live somewhere real far??? LOL... I know you will...

Ill wait....

Meet up? :rofl Why are losing it? :D

As I said stop crying and live by it. :yep You have been humilated because of your stupidness.

:good :hi:

[jimmie]

At his best hes a very well rounded fighter. He could jab,punch to the body,had a nice lead right hand,power,decent ring generalship,tight defense. Any guy who beats Quartey clearly even at his own game,beats Winky Wright close or not,B level guys like Campas,Joval,Castejllo,Rivera,Marquez and was very competitive with Mosley,Oscar,Tito infact if Tito doesnt assault Vargas balls he might just win that fight the momentum was in Vargas favor.

[psychopath]

ROFL.. you're very predictable... Just as I expected, you're trying so hard to twist things around. :rofl Only in your small mind I am humiliated.. Only in your bubbles shorty. :lol:

Im not losing it dude. We're all boxing fans around here and Im sure many posters in here box in the real world so I am simply calling you out as a fellow boxing fan.. If you don't know how to box then just say it, instead of acting like a female because you aint impressing nobody with that shorty.

GO ahead, what kind of excuse are you going to think of now... LOL.. Ill be waiting and again, I know what you'll say next..

:yep You're pure comedy dude.. a pussy.

Nah you're calling me out so you can suck my dick. :D This is what you've been talking about all along . . . sucking dicks. :lol:

You don't call out people on cyber boii. :rofl You simply bitch slap them just like what I'm doing to you. :yep

:hi: :good

[psychopath]

:roll: Umm that's quite gay.. You wish you could get your 2 inch cock sucked by another man... :-( :lol: You're sounding more like a queer by the day and im begining to question your manhood..

" You don't call out people on cyber boii " :lol: That's what people say when they don;t have the balls to face another man in the real world.. Is there a law against people calling each other out online? Theres nothing wrong with that and even pro boxers call each other out online so why can't the fans?

You're a pansy dude I swear.... Trying to twist things around like a little punk.. :rofl :rofl

Looks like I own you on ESB and in the real world too huh? Backing down like a little punk.. Yo, why don't you break your piggy bank, gather up your pacels and go buy yourself a pair, how bout that?

Or do you have to spend that on a dog buffet?


Yeah that's right I know you love cocks. :D :D :D

Oh that's what you say? You were saying tha'ts when you say when you don't want you ass to be owned remember? :rofl :rofl :rofl

Now you're running away from me like a plague. :yep :good

[achillesthegreat]

ive never understood how people were so high on vargas.

im looking at his boxrec record and the only thing that stands out, is that he lost by KO to the 3 best fighters he has fought: ODLH, Trinidad, Mosely (i know he was past his prime but so was mosely)

And the significant wins are:
-A green winky wright, and many thought vargas lost this
-quartey (just after he had lost to odlh)

i dont rate campas, castillejo, and vanderpool too highly

so, please tell me how this guy was ever considered elite

was it the effort he put in during his losses to trinidad and the nature of the stoppage? (low blows etc)
After 14 fights Vargas faces a guy with a record of 72-2! The 2 losses were to Tito and Lopez in title fights. Up to that point Vargas had only faced 3 guys with losing records and he'd stopped every man he'd faced. He was also 21 years old!

Then he rightly has an easy fight, which came about by fluke. Journeyman Howard Clarke pulled the upset over Jason Papillion and found himself challenging for the IBF title on the Lewis-Holyfield I card. It made sense with Clarke being British.

Nevertheless it was another stoppage. He then beat Wright and Quartey. No explanation needed there. Wright arguably won and Quartey looked bad from the lay off but he still left with the W. In fact against Quartey you saw the best Vargas ever. A very impressive performance.

In both his losses he lost it at the last hurdle.

Even when EVERYONE and their mother said he was 'shot' he came back to beat top 10 160 Joval and WBC 154 champ Castijello.

He'd beaten the best and lost valiantly to the best. He stayed elite through out. Much like Judah has but without the iffy record of Judah. If he lost, he rebuilt. Plus he never lost to an average guy like Baldo.

Unfortunately his elite status at 154 was thrown out the window when he lost to his THIRD great BUT naturally smaller opponent.

It wasn't until the end that Vargas lost his elite status. Even then he gave Mosley hell in the first bout but it was in the second bout that Mosley put the elite status to sleep.

In his retirement fight Vargas will look to stamp his legacy by showing the calibre he was always a notch above - the Mayorgas of boxing.

[aliwasthegreatest]

Why are you following me around like a little bitch? :lol: I aint one of your tourists that you and your buddies like to follow around, asking for american bubblegums and shit. :rofl

Looks like i have to put this lesson on ya again.. BItch..

First of all I never said that Vargas was an elite. I said he was a borderline elite ok bitch?

Comparing Vargas to Cotto? WTF are you saying that Cotto accomplished more than vargas did so far??? You dumb cunt, son of a hoar.. Vargas was never babied like Cotto and he only lost to the elite you piece of shit, and that's only because he was rushed..

Who the fuck did Cotto ever beat? He turned pro in 01 and his first victory against an elite is against Judah in 07? And he also had to cheat to win so get outa here with all your bullshit homee before I send you next to your mom. :lol:

So hell yea im comparing Vargas to Cotto you dumb cunt...

What a dumbass. Again, you know nothing about this sport.

you really suck at talkin shit man. you tried really hard and made decent points but you tried way too hard to hurt his feelings.

[Bazooka]

I will tell you why Vargas was considered elite, before the kid fought Tito before he had 20 fights he dominated Quartey beat Campas and also beat Winky Wright along with Raul Marquez a former olympian, and he won a world title at that young of an age that early in his career he was a monster and was doing very well.

[Thread Stealer]

Thomas Hearns lost to the only two elite fighters he ever thought. you goin to tell us that he wasn't elite

I was going to mention the Tommy Hearns comparison as well. :good

According to OP, Tommy was just a journeyman as well.

Wilfred Benitez was elite.

Pipino Cuevas was a long reigning welterweight titlist.

Roberto Duran had seen better days but was still very formidable at the time, and is probably a top 10 fighter all-time.

[psychopath]

I never claimed to be no master shittalker homey. I just say what I want to say and that's all that matters so go suck a cock faget..

Whether someone tries hard or not, a point made is a point made and I certainly made one...

Point made? Where's the point you made? :roll:

I'm asking you to explain how you came up with the idea that Valero who knocks out opponents in the first round will outbox Pacquaio for 12 rounds and all you can came up is bullcraps and try to drag the arguement to something else to make an escape. :yep :rofl

:nono Nah nah nah genius . . . that same question will crop up to your face everytime you show up here. :hey :D

:good

[jimmie]

He was a big hitter and fought some good fights with top guys. He was never an elite fighter though, but a good name to have on your resume.

Also, his win against Quartey was a gift. Quartey would be recognized as an ATG if not for all the robberies he fought in. ODLH, Forrest, Vargas. Those names would've moved him up big time had he gotten the decisions.

:rofl Im guessing u didnt see Vargas-Quartey Vargas at worst won 8 rounds he did everything better then Quartey.

[achillesthegreat]

I disagree, it was close but I thought Quartey outpointed him.
You definitely haven't seen the fight. Vargas won about ten rounds and it's his best performance.

[kirk]

a GREEN winky? LOL!!!!

what did he have... like... 39 pro fights already? had been a pro fighter for like NINE years... was the SAME winky as today...

had his shot at REDEMPTION, ON HBO, against one of the recognised CHAMPS,

while it was like vargas 18th pro fight.... obviously fought down to his opposition as he was 17-0 with 17 knockouts and had previously said he was lacking motivation and wanted ike, oscar, or trinidad.... and

yet he STILL came out with the victory. anybody can say what they want, anyone who thinks that fight was anything but close... eather didnt see it or are biased fucks.

and this was what.. 18th pro fight?

lets see.... lets look around boxing in todays era, and see who fighters are fighting in their 18th pro fights...

so he scrapes by with a win against winky (something jermain taylor, shane mosley, trinidad, and ike couldnt do)

then... in his NEXT fight, his 19th pro bout, he fights and dominates ike quartey....

beats and stops (something jeff lacy didnt do at 168) ross thompson, which is nothing special i admit

and then, with 20 pro fights, he fights felix trinidad. i believe vargas had been a pro at that point for maybe 3 or 4 years.... trinidad i think 10, and i think tito had almost half, if not more then half as many championship fights at feroz had fights PERIOD.

and then... a HOF type battle ensues until the 12th round of the fight. A classic battle.

so lets recap

he fought and beat winky in his 18th fight
he fought and beat ike in his 19th fight
he fought and beat ross in his 20th fight
he fought and lost in a classic batte, and RINGS all time number 1 fight at 154 pounds against trinidad, in his 21st pro fight


let me also add to this, that this was all in a span of

ONE YEAR

and you dont understand why people were high on him?


sorry bud.... i dont understand why someone would even ASK that question.








so nawfal... nothing about this tells you why people were high on him?

you have guys like cotto, judah, miranda, ect, that guys are high on..... for doing... what exactly....

and yet your wondering why people were high on Feroz at the time?

oh... and he was #9 or #10 p4p in the world in 1999...

another thing i guess anyone can do...

[kirk]

I disagree, it was close but I thought Quartey outpointed him.


:blood


nevermind... lol... im outta this thread. :lol:

[Amsterdam]

Hmm, let's see:

Draw with Wright, win over Quartey....

Yes, a B grade Gatti level fighter.:lol:

Also, let's note little things, like how he man handled Castillejo with ease and how Sturm got KOed and struggled with him in the 2nd fight.

[Thread Stealer]

Also, his win against Quartey was a gift. Quartey would be recognized as an ATG if not for all the robberies he fought in. ODLH, Forrest, Vargas. Those names would've moved him up big time had he gotten the decisions.

Vargas beat Quartey fairly. It was competitive but clear.

I had Quartey beating De La Hoya by a point. If you're very generous to Oscar you can score it for him slightly, the official scorecards were dispicable.

And I had Quartey beating Forrest 97-93.

[jimmie]

Hmm, let's see:

Draw with Wright, win over Quartey....

Yes, a B grade Gatti level fighter.:lol:

Also, let's note little things, like how he man handled Castillejo with ease and how Sturm got KOed and struggled with him in the 2nd fight.

Exactly, Dont forget he easily beat Ray Joval when Vargas moving up in weight and hadnt fought in about 16 months. Joval is no world beater but hes a very solid fighter and this is a Vargas who was clearly past his best. I know he lost to Mosley,Trinidad,Oscar no shame there but he was competitve. I along with most people had the fight 6 rounds to 4 for Oscar or 5-5 going into the 11th. Agianst Trinidad I had him at one winning the fight but the low blows got to him and he took a vicious beating at the end still no shame. He was within 3 points or 2 of Mosley in the 1st fight. Any guy who is 2-4 vs Wright,Quartey,Mosley,DLH,Trinidad is dam good in my book. Hes going to smash that bum Mayorga in September mark my words.

[Scar]

ive never understood how people were so high on vargas.

im looking at his boxrec record and the only thing that stands out, is that he lost by KO to the 3 best fighters he has fought: ODLH, Trinidad, Mosely (i know he was past his prime but so was mosely)

And the significant wins are:
-A green winky wright, and many thought vargas lost this
-quartey (just after he had lost to odlh)

i dont rate campas, castillejo, and vanderpool too highly

so, please tell me how this guy was ever considered elite

was it the effort he put in during his losses to trinidad and the nature of the stoppage? (low blows etc)

You make it sound like Wright had 10 pro fights when he met Vargas and Vargas had 50, as far as I know Vargas was green too and he's considered elite for giving an elite fighter in Trinidad one of his toughest fights even though it was TOO early for Vargas at that point. It takes an elite fighter to give another elite a tough fight and Vargas ALWAYS gave his opponents hell whether he won or lost.

[Thread Stealer]

You make it sound like Wright had 10 pro fights when he met Vargas and Vargas had 50, as far as I know Vargas was green too and he's considered elite for giving an elite fighter in Trinidad one of his toughest fights even though it was TOO early for Vargas at that point. It takes an elite fighter to give another elite a tough fight and Vargas ALWAYS gave his opponents hell whether he won or lost.

Winky himself wasn't even green.

He had over 40 pro fights, and had faced world class opposition.

[Scar]

Winky himself wasn't even green.

He had over 40 pro fights, and had faced world class opposition.

Tell that to Awfal.

[kirk]

Ya know what, maybe I am thinking of Oscar's win over Quartey. If it was that clear for Vargas than I must be making some kind of mistake. I haven't seen either fight in a while, but for some reason that one stuck to me. Lemme rewatch it. could be bro... i mean, they were badass rounds to be sure... filled with action, and ike had his moments in the late middle rounds... but IMO it would be hard pressed to score it even a split decision... let ALONE a DRAW, let ALONE a loss.

[achillesthegreat]

Ya know what, maybe I am thinking of Oscar's win over Quartey. If it was that clear for Vargas than I must be making some kind of mistake. I haven't seen either fight in a while, but for some reason that one stuck to me. Lemme rewatch it.
I do think Quartey beat DLH. Can't see how DLH won that but I accept many do.

[Thread Stealer]

I do think Quartey beat DLH. Can't see how DLH won that but I accept many do.

You can score it narrowly for Oscar, but you have to be really generous.

DLH did too little from rounds 7-11, and even in round 6 with both KDs, Quartey took that round since he did the better work following the KDs.

[Nawfal]

You make it sound like Wright had 10 pro fights when he met Vargas and Vargas had 50, as far as I know Vargas was green too and he's considered elite for giving an elite fighter in Trinidad one of his toughest fights even though it was TOO early for Vargas at that point. It takes an elite fighter to give another elite a tough fight and Vargas ALWAYS gave his opponents hell whether he won or lost.

he didnt have the same style he does today

[Ramshall1]

ANy so called fan trying to piss on Vargas is clueless. Other than the steroids crap, theres is nothing bad to say about the dude. He fought like a mofo, didnt run like some scared rabbits do. He seeked out the biggest challenges in his prime. He lost some, won some. . . even the ones he lost, he usually put the "winner" through hell. IE - Tito actually broke down and cried at the end of that brutal fight, Vargas put Tito through more than DLH.

[kirk]

he didnt have the same style he does today

ya he does.... it is EXACTLY the same.

EXACTLY lol... watch the fight and there is NO differance.


:blood

[kirk]

nawfal, im curious... so did my post (below)... does it still not even elude to why people were high on him?


a GREEN winky? LOL!!!!

what did he have... like... 39 pro fights already? had been a pro fighter for like NINE years... was the SAME winky as today...

had his shot at REDEMPTION, ON HBO, against one of the recognised CHAMPS,

while it was like vargas 18th pro fight.... obviously fought down to his opposition as he was 17-0 with 17 knockouts and had previously said he was lacking motivation and wanted ike, oscar, or trinidad.... and

yet he STILL came out with the victory. anybody can say what they want, anyone who thinks that fight was anything but close... eather didnt see it or are biased fucks.

and this was what.. 18th pro fight?

lets see.... lets look around boxing in todays era, and see who fighters are fighting in their 18th pro fights...

so he scrapes by with a win against winky (something jermain taylor, shane mosley, trinidad, and ike couldnt do)

then... in his NEXT fight, his 19th pro bout, he fights and dominates ike quartey....

beats and stops (something jeff lacy didnt do at 16:cool: ross thompson, which is nothing special i admit

and then, with 20 pro fights, he fights felix trinidad. i believe vargas had been a pro at that point for maybe 3 or 4 years.... trinidad i think 10, and i think tito had almost half, if not more then half as many championship fights at feroz had fights PERIOD.

and then... a HOF type battle ensues until the 12th round of the fight. A classic battle.

so lets recap

he fought and beat winky in his 18th fight
he fought and beat ike in his 19th fight
he fought and beat ross in his 20th fight
he fought and lost in a classic batte, and RINGS all time number 1 fight at 154 pounds against trinidad, in his 21st pro fight


let me also add to this, that this was all in a span of

ONE YEAR

and you dont understand why people were high on him?


sorry bud.... i dont understand why someone would even ASK that question.








so nawfal... nothing about this tells you why people were high on him?

you have guys like cotto, judah, miranda, ect, that guys are high on..... for doing... what exactly....

and yet your wondering why people were high on Feroz at the time?

oh... and he was #9 or #10 p4p in the world in 1999...

another thing i guess anyone can do...

[Nawfal]

kirk, i have your post but i would just like to hear what are vargas' top 5 wins please

[Nawfal]

at the end of the fight, vargas said he had a lot of personal problems

i know he had problems making weight ive heard that before, but what were the personal problems

[DanePugilist]

What Kirk said really...

Vargas was definately elite. I still envision a great comeback - but then again - I will not let go so easily.

[kirk]

kirk, i have your post but i would just like to hear what are vargas' top 5 wins please

imo its a loaded question... cuz part of vargas's legacy are his great losses... which you may think is retarded to think of a fighter like that, but for Gods sakes the guy was demolished in his 20th pro fight by career ender Trinidad. its not like he had a lot of growth past that fight... and you wondered why people were so high on him... when he rattled off wins against campas, marquez, winky, ike, ross and was lined up for tito... all before his 22nd or 23rd birthday (how old are todays real prospects again?) its easy to understand why his resume of wins is not longer.

like i said... imo its a loaded question but i will answer it anyways

1 - winky wright (mosley 2x, trinidad, taylor couldnt beat)
2 - ike quartey (who forrest, nor hoya beat as effectively)
3 - campas (at the time... this was vargas's 16th or so pro fight, again, you cant just go by the book, you have to realise the situation... campas is giving middleweight prospects (duddy) TODAY rough fights, and it took oscar more time and did it in less fashion against a much older campas then vargas did taking his title in his 15th or 16th pro fight)
4 - Marquez
5 - i dont know... guess ill go with castillejo or however you spell his name... he went up to middleweight and stopped sturm after vargas beat him, and no excuses but this is ghost vargas we are talking about, also one that passed out in the sauna to make weight....


so take from it what you will. i guess i cant get past that you dont even understand why people would be high on him. i mean, questioning him as an elite fighter, i guess i can understand... though... when you beat elites like winky, dominate less then elites like quartey, and have epic wars with three greats in mosley, tito and hoya... i dont know how that qualifies you as a anything less then an A fighter in your prime.

anyways... thats about all i got to say really.

[Sonny Carson]

The Winky Wright fans are in denial Vargas beat him.

[kirk]

at the end of the fight, vargas said he had a lot of personal problems

i know he had problems making weight ive heard that before, but what were the personal problems

- motivation, he didnt even know wright, and wanted fights with ike, tito, or hoya.... he said it again in the thompson fight which led to the press conferance brawl.

- family problems... thats why in the beginning of the fight his friend told him dont worry about anything, that they all love him, cuz he was going through family problems and the court thing at the time, it was around the time though i think a little before his legal troubles began as well

- making weight... his diet for that fight was eggs and slim fasts... for the last week or so of the fight to try and make the weight due to lack of proper training.


all you really have to do to see the differance is see the vargas that showed up to fight ike in the very next fight to the one that showed up to fight winky

[the_what]

Victories over Campas, Wright, and Quartey all before his 22nd bday makes me think he was elite.

[Nigel_Benn]

I disagree with the personal problems part i think Vargas was confused by Winkys agression and southpaw style but i still had him rallying late to win it 7-5 that fight could go either way.

[surreal deal]

I don't think he was every actually considered "Elite". He was very good and had alot of promise and was also a fan pleasing fighter the way he fought but I don't think people considered him Elite.
they surely did.he was a live underdog(almost pickem) against tito and oscar.

[Nawfal]

imo its a loaded question... cuz part of vargas's legacy are his great losses... which you may think is retarded to think of a fighter like that, but for Gods sakes the guy was demolished in his 20th pro fight by career ender Trinidad. its not like he had a lot of growth past that fight... and you wondered why people were so high on him... when he rattled off wins against campas, marquez, winky, ike, ross and was lined up for tito... all before his 22nd or 23rd birthday (how old are todays real prospects again?) its easy to understand why his resume of wins is not longer.

like i said... imo its a loaded question but i will answer it anyways

1 - winky wright (mosley 2x, trinidad, taylor couldnt beat)
2 - ike quartey (who forrest, nor hoya beat as effectively)
3 - campas (at the time... this was vargas's 16th or so pro fight, again, you cant just go by the book, you have to realise the situation... campas is giving middleweight prospects (duddy) TODAY rough fights, and it took oscar more time and did it in less fashion against a much older campas then vargas did taking his title in his 15th or 16th pro fight)
4 - Marquez
5 - i dont know... guess ill go with castillejo or however you spell his name... he went up to middleweight and stopped sturm after vargas beat him, and no excuses but this is ghost vargas we are talking about, also one that passed out in the sauna to make weight....


so take from it what you will. i guess i cant get past that you dont even understand why people would be high on him. i mean, questioning him as an elite fighter, i guess i can understand... though... when you beat elites like winky, dominate less then elites like quartey, and have epic wars with three greats in mosley, tito and hoya... i dont know how that qualifies you as a anything less then an A fighter in your prime.

anyways... thats about all i got to say really.

ok thanks for that

whilst it is very impressive that he achieved all that before he was 22 years old, i dont see how that elevates him in his status.

i basically see 1 (+1) good win in his career- winky wright (+quartey)

yes his win over ike quartey was a good one, but quartey had just been beaten by odlh (questionably) and then had taken a long lay off.

and i definately see why people were high on him when he was 22 years old etc. but the thing that i always think of when i think of vargas is that he got beaten by the 3 best fighters he ever fought. yes he may have been rushed against tito, but it is what it is.

all im saying, is that now, if you look back at vargas' career, was he ever an elite fighter.

[Ramshall1]

Getting beat by the elite does not mean you are not elite.

Seeing as he was very competative with all three elites and has a win over Winky and Ike. . . makes him elite in my bok.

Compare to a guy like Gatti who was a good fighter but not even close to competing with the only two elite guys he faced.

[DanePugilist]

ok thanks for that

whilst it is very impressive that he achieved all that before he was 22 years old, i dont see how that elevates him in his status.

i basically see 1 (+1) good win in his career- winky wright (+quartey)

yes his win over ike quartey was a good one, but quartey had just been beaten by odlh (questionably) and then had taken a long lay off.

and i definately see why people were high on him when he was 22 years old etc. but the thing that i always think of when i think of vargas is that he got beaten by the 3 best fighters he ever fought. yes he may have been rushed against tito, but it is what it is.

all im saying, is that now, if you look back at vargas' career, was he ever an elite fighter.Yes, those who beat him - were the best of the best in the past 10+ years - and he put up some awesome fighting in those matches.

You can still be elite, even if you come down short in a great era. Especially when thinking how fast he was rushed.

Statistics doesn't explain much - viewing fighting skills does, imho.

[Nawfal]

Yes, those who beat him - were the best of the best in the past 10+ years - and he put up some awesome fighting in those matches.

You can still be elite, even if you come down short in a great era. Especially when thinking how fast he was rushed.

Statistics doesn't explain much - viewing fighting skills does, imho.

i appreciate your point of view, but we differ on it. i cant rate someone highly for their losses

and its basically ONLY his loss to trinidad that is such a big deal.
dont forget he roided up against odlh. and he got beaten up against mosely.

what i do do however, say for example malignaggi vs cotto. i gained a lot of respect for paulie because of the heart he showed, but hes gotta do something with that in the future. iif he builds on it and gets another good win, then it all adds together. but not if he loses all the big fights in his life.

[buzzsaw]

I don't know if he was elite as much as it was that he was the "anti-Oscar"

[kirk]

but the thing that i always think of when i think of vargas is that he got beaten by the 3 best fighters he ever fought. .

ok...

well... lets use your analogy on other fighters too

Trinidad lost to the best fighters he ever fought (winky and hops)
Hoya lost to the best fighters he ever fought (hops, mosley) AND had A LOT of REAL close fights with others (whitaker, ike, sturm)
Mosley lost to two of the best fighters he ever fought (forrest, winky)

i mean, you can use that reasoning for just about anybody... fact is... he fought 5 awsome fighters. winky, ike, hoya, mosley, and trinidad.... he went 2-3 with them, personally, i throw out the mosley fights cuz to me, they dont mean shit, just like if he loses however many fights from here on out, to me it dont mean shit. its not the vargas we are talking about here... but throw him in anyways cuz reality is he lost agianst mosley... so he beat 2 of the 5 of the best fighters he fought...

in that same pool

Winky lost to vargas, beat tito, mosley, ike 3-1
Hoya lost to tito, mosley, and beat vargas, and ike.. forget the controversy lets just go with reality, he beat ike in the history books, he is 2-2 in this pool of fighters

mosley lost to winky, beat hoya, vargas, he is 2-1
vargas beat winky, ike, lost to tito, hoya, mosley, he is 2-3,

anyway you slice it... there is no way vargas was not on there level.


if he was NOT on there level... he would have been dispatched of... LIKE FIGHTERS WHO ARE NOT ON THAT LEVEL.

the fact that their brawls are classic (vargas/winky, vargas/ike, tito/vargas, hoya/vargas, mosley/vargas 1) only proves my point actually, that he IS on that level.

imo ;)