if Cus D'Amato hadent died when he did.....

[hopkinsfan07]

would tyson of been unbeaten for 50 fights and go down as one of the greats

[JohnThomas1]

That is an absolutely fantastic question. Could Cus keep him on the rails? I think Tyson would have beaten Douglas. Could Holyfield have beaten him at this time? I say yes. I say Tyson wouldn't have reached 50 unbeaten.

[Dempsey1238]

Cus would be a God than lol. The man was allreay well in his 80's. By the time Tyson was ready for Douglas in 1990, Cus would perhaps had to be wheel to and back from the ring lol.

[jonesjrp4p1]

yes he would of kept tyson at check and kept him focused on his career and not money and girls.....tyson would of soared past the 49-0 record imo....

[MrSmall]

I'm sure he could.

[brooklyn1550]

Possibly

[TBooze]

would tyson of been unbeaten for 50 fights and go down as one of the greats

D'Amato could not of saved Tyson, by 1986 no one could. Tyson IMO needed to avoid pro boxing. Tyson's problems and personality meant money and fame made things worse. If D'Amato had taken him down a path other than pro boxing then maybe Tyson would of had a more... happy life?

[McGrain]

would tyson of been unbeaten for 50 fights and go down as one of the greats

No, I don't think so. Cus was a trainer, not a jailor and it is absolutley the case, in my opinion, that Tyson would have come to resent him as he tried to spread his wings.

Remember that Cus didn't want fighters to go anywhere or do anything without his express premission. He treated 25 year old men who were worth serious money like they were teenagers...Tyson, with what is in him, would probably have cast that of especially if King was pissing in his ear.

Tyson, i'm afraid, would have f*cked up eventually because he is a f*ck up. That's just the way it is.

[garymcfall]

I believe D' Amato was the one person who ever lived who could save Tyson. Tyson looked up to him like he never did anyone else. I see Tyson beating Buster Douglas but then Losing 2 - 1 in a trilogy with Evander Holyfield. Also i think Mike would be more mentally tough with Cus around, he wouldnt crumble as easily when things didnt go quite the way he wanted in the ring.

[McGrain]

D'Amato could not of saved Tyson, by 1986 no one could. Tyson IMO needed to avoid pro boxing. Tyson's problems and personality meant money and fame made things worse. If D'Amato had taken him down a path other than pro boxing then maybe Tyson would of had a more... happy life?

As you can see, TBooze said everything I said slightly better before I posted.

That's what I get for not reading the thread.

I do agree that Tyson needed to get far away from pro boxing, and Cus was certainly the last person who would ever ever ever have done that. For all his patter about "doing what is right for the fighters", they were fighters to him, even before they were human beings.

Tyson should also follow TBooze's advice now. He should get far away from the game, no training, no announceing no anything else you see suggested in General.

He should raise lamas or breed pigeons.

[garymcfall]

No, I don't think so. Cus was a trainer, not a jailor and it is absolutley the case, in my opinion, that Tyson would have come to resent him as he tried to spread his wings.

Remember that Cus didn't want fighters to go anywhere or do anything without his express premission. He treated 25 year old men who were worth serious money like they were teenagers...Tyson, with what is in him, would probably have cast that of especially if King was pissing in his ear.

Tyson, i'm afraid, would have f*cked up eventually because he is a f*ck up. That's just the way it is.

when you put it like that actually , my opinion slightly changes, good point

[mcvey]

would tyson of been unbeaten for 50 fights and go down as one of the greats
Tyson who have gone down in flames sooner or later,his character flaws couldnt be papered over for ever,once an arsehole ,allways an-------.

[ChrisPontius]

Some people think Tyson was an angel under D'Amato's protection, but he has always been a punk. He got expelled from his school when he lived with Cus, he had that famous incident with that big mouth's niece.. maybe Cus could've kept him out of trouble for a little longer, but Tyson's always been a time bomb.

On top of that, boxers with his style never have a long lasting career, no matter how much of a father type the trainer is.

And who's to say Tyson wouldn't ditch Cus when Don King knows to manipulate him? After all, he also fired Rooney and believed a lot of lies that King told him... i wouldn't be suprised if it would've happened somewhere early 90's, creating a new Buster Douglas.

[Rattler]

No way.

There's no chance a multi-millionaire like Tyson would've stayed under the umbrella of D'Amato's tutelage like he did when he had nothing but Cus to rely on.

The only difference with Tyson, as it compares 'tween "with Cus" and "without Cus" was the capability to fund his own lifestyle.

[Minotauro]

No, I don't think so. Cus was a trainer, not a jailor and it is absolutley the case, in my opinion, that Tyson would have come to resent him as he tried to spread his wings.

Remember that Cus didn't want fighters to go anywhere or do anything without his express premission. He treated 25 year old men who were worth serious money like they were teenagers...Tyson, with what is in him, would probably have cast that of especially if King was pissing in his ear.

Tyson, i'm afraid, would have f*cked up eventually because he is a f*ck up. That's just the way it is.

I actually agree with this, Tyson's mental weaknesses would have got the better of him eventually maybe not as soon but it would have happen. There is only so long you can control someone and when Tyson decides he wants the champions lifestyle he would have left Cus probably for King due to everything promised.

[Rattler]

I actually agree with this, Tyson's mental weaknesses would have got the better of him eventually maybe not as soon but it would have happen. There is only so long you can control someone and when Tyson decides he wants the champions lifestyle he would have left Cus probably for King due to everything promised.

I don't know. Tyson's a pretty loyal dude. He wouldn't have jettisoned Cus like a free weight once King came sniffing around.

It's the fact that Tyson came into having the resources to do as he pleased, that his weaknesses as a human being found their temptations fulfilled.

[hopkinsfan07]

No, I don't think so. Cus was a trainer, not a jailor and it is absolutley the case, in my opinion, that Tyson would have come to resent him as he tried to spread his wings.

Remember that Cus didn't want fighters to go anywhere or do anything without his express premission. He treated 25 year old men who were worth serious money like they were teenagers...Tyson, with what is in him, would probably have cast that of especially if King was pissing in his ear.

Tyson, i'm afraid, would have f*cked up eventually because he is a f*ck up. That's just the way it is.

Cus was like a father to Tyson and always kept him in check

and in the 2nd Holyfield fight i dont think he would of bit his ear off

[Muchmoore]

On top of that, boxers with his style never have a long lasting career, no matter how much of a father type the trainer is.



Great point. Tyson relied so much on his reflexes that when they started to go, he lost his big weapon. Even with Cus, he wouldnt of been able to fight well in his thirties and still be dynamite. Same goes for Frazier, Marciano etc.

[BodyBlaster]

Yes, he would have retired undefeated.
Tyson had his share of problems when Cus was alive, but they were maitained, and he had the desire to fullfill Cus's goal of producing the greatest fighter who ever lived.

When Cus died, Mike still had the hunger to become the youngest champ, then to unify, but after that he lost interest in training, got fucked up by Givens, fucked over by Don King, and it all fell apart.

I still think Tyson at his best, around 20/21 years old beats Holyfield everytime, and the only real threat to him, whenin that form and condition would have been Lewis, but Tyson would have been retired by the time Lewis became good enough to trouble him, and even then, I still think head to head a motivated Mike is too much for Lewis.

[Bummy Davis]

I think that if Cus would have lived, it would certainly helped Mike mentally, but do we know if Mike would have went with King and the other hanger/ons and trolls, had Cus lived he had the father-like ability to think for Mike and knew his weakness(mind) but Cus-less, Tyson quickly went down hill and became the lower man

[BodyBlaster]

I think that if Cus would have lived, it would certainly helped Mike mentally, but do we know if Mike would have went with King and the other hanger/ons and trolls, had Cus lived he had the father-like ability to think for Mike and knew his weakness(mind) but Cus-less, Tyson quickly went down hill and became the lower man

thats a very fair point.
Mike was 19 or 20 when Cus died, and so who knows if when King/Givens came along, Mike head may well have been turned anyway.

I think if Mike could have got to 25 with Cus/Rooney/Jacobs etc, then he'd have went 50-0 and retired as the best ever.
I think Cus knew that Mike with his style had a limited shelf life, and managed him as such

[la-califa]

Yes, But not only Cus. If Jimmy Jacobs also survived. and Kevin Rooney & Tyson's Manager which Don King Forced out. This fousome was arguably one of the greatest support teams any boxer could have had. They had built the perfect fighting machine with virtually no weaknesses. It was so sad to see everything go down hill after Cus & Jimmy passed on & Don King got his grubby hands on one of the possibly greatest Heavyweight Champs in history. Now Tysons legacy is great, but it could have been so much more, He would have been mentioned in the same breath as Marciano, Louis & Ali.

[BodyBlaster]

Yes, But not only Cus. If Jimmy Jacobs also survived. and Kevin Rooney & Tyson's Manager which Don King Forced out. This fousome was arguably one of the greatest support teams any boxer could have had. They had built the perfect fighting machine with virtually no weaknesses. It was so sad to see everything go down hill after Cus & Jimmy passed on & Don King got his grubby hands on one of the possibly greatest Heavyweight Champs in history. Now Tysons legacy is great, but it could have been so much more, He would have been mentioned in the same breath as Marciano, Louis & Ali.

:good

[Sonny's jab]

I think Tyson had some anti-social habits and appetites that were always gonna get him in trouble when he got mega-rich and famous.

Jim Jacobs and Steve Lott were the guys who were keeping Tyson's image and discipline within reasonable limits. And it was hard work. There's only so much a couple of middle-aged white guys could do with a young testosterone-fulled young black superstar (I only bring up race in a cultural context - could you see Jacobs accompanying Tyson to a Public Enemy concert or to Dapper Dan's boutique in Harlem ? Or telling him he could not attend an invite to judge a Miss Black America contest ?). Boys will be boys.

I dont think Cus would have been any help. Let's be realistic.

[Muchmoore]

Patterson did.

Patterson is an exception.

[ripcity]

I think if he had not died when he did Tyson would have stayed with Kevin Rooney and have him in his cornor in Tokyo against Buster Douglas instead of "Team Tyson who I think were a cupple of guys pulled from the cowd :p .
Douglas was focused and had the perfict style to beat tyson, but having Rooney in his corner would have been big advantage for Tyson. If he won he would have gone to 38-0. His next fight would have been Evander Holyfield some time in 1990 or 91. I think he wins that one 39-0 his next fight would be
George Foreman Tyson Wins 40-0. After Larry Holmes beats Ray Mercer a remach with Larry Holmes would be nexrt 41-0. Riddick Bowe is next I think it will be a close fight but Tyson wins 42-0. his next oponent is Lennox Lewis who he beats. 43-0. He beats Donovan Ruddock. to go 44-0. Ray Mercer is next. 45-0. A rematch with Riddick Bowe is his next fight. This time Bowe wins 45-1. Next up is a rematch with Evander Holyfield . Thisis a tough one to pick. I am presumeing that Rooney is in his coorner and that makes a big difrence in my opinion. I'm going against history and asy in this reality Tyson would win. 46-1. He would get a shot at Bowe again. Bowe wins again. 46-2. He faces Michael Moorer next Tyson wins a very close fight 47-2. He fights Lennox Lewis a second time. Lewis wins Tyson goes to 47-3 after 50 fights. He would have had 18 tittle defencess and 15 championship defencences.
If he is not allready an alltime great he would be.

[ironchamp]

Some people think Tyson was an angel under D'Amato's protection, but he has always been a punk. He got expelled from his school when he lived with Cus, he had that famous incident with that big mouth's niece.. maybe Cus could've kept him out of trouble for a little longer, but Tyson's always been a time bomb.

On top of that, boxers with his style never have a long lasting career, no matter how much of a father type the trainer is.

And who's to say Tyson wouldn't ditch Cus when Don King knows to manipulate him? After all, he also fired Rooney and believed a lot of lies that King told him... i wouldn't be suprised if it would've happened somewhere early 90's, creating a new Buster Douglas.

He was never an Angel but I think Cus's prescence would have created a stronger foundation for Mike's mental make up...this would have went a long way in terms of his professional development as well as an improved sense of well being. With Cus and Jim Jacobs alive I don't see Tyson flocking over to Don King at all...After all he was Mike Tyson, he was going to make millions anyway with the promoter being irrelavant.

Would he have surpassed the 49-0 mark? Its possible. Had he maintained the same level of consistency that he had 86-88 he would have more than likely extended his unbeaten streak into the 40s....

[Golden Boy]

Tyson would be the best and invicible.Cus was amazing authority for him so..

[Titan1]

I think so, but his demons would've eventually caught up to him at some point in his life.

[DamonD]

I'm afraid I'm in the school of thought that says Cus at best didn't alleviate Mike's problems, and at worst exacerbated them...he gave Mike an output for his anger, and developed his technique, but he was far more concerned about Mike's glory in the ring than making him into some kind of reformed citizen. He turned a blind eye to the issues Mike was already suffering from, because that made him a better fighter...sadly not a better person.

[janitor]

I tend to think that it would only have delayed the inevitable for a few more years.

Keeping Tyson focused and out of trouble was a bit like walking a tightrope. Looks verry good while you stay on but you can't keep it up for ever.

I would add that even fighters with a solid work ethic tend to loose focus to some extent once they have the title. I don't see why Tyson should have been one of the rare exceptions.

[bill poster]

How much money did Givens and the mum-in-law get their grubby hands on?

And where is she now?

[janitor]

How much money did Givens and the mum-in-law get their grubby hands on?


Probably more than he did.

[The Kurgan]

People forget that Tyson achieved almost everything he did AFTER Cus D'Amato died. Looking at how D'Amato's conservative style of management wasted the potential of Patterson and Torres, I think Tyson would be looking at waiting until 1988 until he fought for the title, and waiting until after 1990 before he unified.

People already talk about Tyson's 1980s competition being inadequate. How much more vicious would they be if Tyson had been protected in the manner that D'Amato usually protected his boxers? By the time Tyson faced Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis etc., he'd have wasted his best years fighting Mike Weaver in 1989 and Gerrie Coetzee in 1991.

D'Amato would RUIN Tyson, who would leave him in the early 1990s and would promptly get knocked out by Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis in succession.

[janitor]

People forget that Tyson achieved almost everything he did AFTER Cus D'Amato died. Looking at how D'Amato's conservative style of management wasted the potential of Patterson and Torres, I think Tyson would be looking at waiting until 1988 until he fought for the title, and waiting until after 1990 before he unified.

People already talk about Tyson's 1980s competition being inadequate. How much more vicious would they be if Tyson had been protected in the manner that D'Amato usually protected his boxers? By the time Tyson faced Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis etc., he'd have wasted his best years fighting Mike Weaver in 1989 and Gerrie Coetzee in 1991.

D'Amato would RUIN Tyson, who would leave him in the early 1990s and would promptly get knocked out by Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis in succession.

It has to be said that much of Patterson's best work was post D'Amato.

[The Kurgan]

D'amato was Tyson's adoptive father, you only need to see the footage of the funeral to see how Cus's death affected Tyson.

Tyson's whole mental breakdown was probably due to this, loosing the only father figure he had. Soon after his training regime slowed, he fired his trainer (at that fucker king's behest) and he began 'living the lifestyle'.

Tyson would have beaten Douglas and Holyfield if Cus had lived. Whether he would be unbeaten I don't know - boxers don't retire when they should.

D'Amato died in late 1985. Most of what you're talking about didn't really kick into gear for another two years after that. Talk about a slow breakdown!

Tyson looked fitter in 1986 and 1987 than ever before. 1988 was arguably the peak of his abilities. Kevin Rooney stayed on with him until, what, about early 1989 (before the Bruno fight, certainly)?

I'd say later events with Rooney being too strict for Tyson, Jacobs' death, and the Cayton fiasco affected Tyson far more. It wasn't D'Amato's death which ruined Tyson's life; it was Tyson and the crappy choices he made in life.

[The Kurgan]

It has to be said that much of Patterson's best work was post D'Amato.

I think the post-D'Amato Patterson was a slightly lesser fighter, but had the better resume because he fought the guys he'd never fought in the past. Better to get stopped after giving Ali six rounds of considerable difficulty than to dominate a 0-0-0 boxer in a title fight.

[mr. magoo]

D'Amato died in late 1985. Most of what you're talking about didn't really kick into gear for another two years after that. Talk about a slow breakdown!

Tyson looked fitter in 1986 and 1987 than ever before. 1988 was arguably the peak of his abilities. Kevin Rooney stayed on with him until, what, about early 1989 (before the Bruno fight, certainly)?

I'd say later events with Rooney being too strict for Tyson, Jacobs' death, and the Cayton fiasco affected Tyson far more. It wasn't D'Amato's death which ruined Tyson's life; it was Tyson and the crappy choices he made in life.

I agree.

I also feel that many of people who surrounded Tyson following the departure of Cayton, Jacobs and Rooney had a bearing on his maturity and behavior as well.

[The Kurgan]

I agree.

I also feel that many of people who surrounded Tyson following the departure of Cayton, Jacobs and Rooney had a bearing on his maturity and behavior as well.

They weren't stalkers, though. They were symptoms of Tyson's own bad choices in life. The way some people talk about Tyson's life, you'd think he was a constant victim; an impassive figure who was endlessly assaulted by irresistable temptations. Bullshit- Tyson had multiple opportunities to turn his life around.

Many great boxers have suffered disastrous losses like Douglas-Tyson. They learnt from it and often became better because of it. Lewis-McCall is an example of an even more severe loss, which ultimately was what led to Lewis choosing to truly dedicate himself to the sport and to get Stewart on board. Lewis's choices after the first McCall fight turned him from a very good heavyweight to a great heavyweight.

Ali came out of an enforced exile and managed to score almost all of his signature wins afterwards. Ali was just as much an outcast and a hate-figure to the mainstream as Tyson was. Both Ali and Tyson found comfort in Islam (remember the rumour that Tyson was to rename himself Mikhael Akbar-Azim?) but Ali chose to live (more or less) in accordance with Islamic strictures. He may have made bad choices with women, but he stayed away from drugs and used Islamic humility to keep his head from going too far into outer space. Ali had more or less the same questions asked of him in 1970 that Tyson faced in 1995. Ali made the better choices because Ali was a better person than Tyson. Simple as that.

I don't want to sound like a prosletyzing existentialist (I'm not an existentialist at all), but it's just childish to ignore the choices people make and to just focus on the reasons why they chose them. Tyson CHOSE everything in his life that led to his downfall. He knows it; I know it; why his fans don't know it, I do not know. Even now, Tyson can make the choices to let himself find peace in his retirement. Schmeling had a far harder retirement situation to deal with, but chose the path of Germanic business-life and the values of family and community. Schmeling, I'm sure, found a peace in retirement that he never had in boxing. Tyson can have the same peace: IF he makes the right choices.

[mr. magoo]

They weren't stalkers, though. They were symptoms of Tyson's own bad choices in life. The way some people talk about Tyson's life, you'd think he was a constant victim; an impassive figure who was endlessly assaulted by irresistable temptations. Bullshit- Tyson had multiple opportunities to turn his life around.

Many great boxers have suffered disastrous losses like Douglas-Tyson. They learnt from it and often became better because of it. Lewis-McCall is an example of an even more severe loss, which ultimately was what led to Lewis choosing to truly dedicate himself to the sport and to get Stewart on board. Lewis's choices after the first McCall fight turned him from a very good heavyweight to a great heavyweight.

Ali came out of an enforced exile and managed to score almost all of his signature wins afterwards. Ali was just as much an outcast and a hate-figure to the mainstream as Tyson was. Both Ali and Tyson found comfort in Islam (remember the rumour that Tyson was to rename himself Mikhael Akbar-Azim?) but Ali chose to live (more or less) in accordance with Islamic strictures. He may have made bad choices with women, but he stayed away from drugs and used Islamic humility to keep his head from going too far into outer space. Ali had more or less the same questions asked of him in 1970 that Tyson faced in 1995. Ali made the better choices because Ali was a better person than Tyson. Simple as that.

I don't want to sound like a prosletyzing existentialist (I'm not an existentialist at all), but it's just childish to ignore the choices people make and to just focus on the reasons why they chose them. Tyson CHOSE everything in his life that led to his downfall. He knows it; I know it; why his fans don't know it, I do not know. Even now, Tyson can make the choices to let himself find peace in his retirement. Schmeling had a far harder retirement situation to deal with, but chose the path of Germanic business-life and the values of family and community. Schmeling, I'm sure, found a peace in retirement that he never had in boxing. Tyson can have the same peace: IF he makes the right choices.

You're absolutely right, and I concur 100%
Tyson is a product of his own choices. No one made him rape, slack, or beat the hell out of people in public. The guy was essentially a jerk, and I think that is the general concencus with most folks.

[The Kurgan]

You're absolutely right, and I concur 100%
Tyson is a product of his own choices. No one made him rape, slack, or beat the hell out of people in public. The guy was essentially a jerk, and I think that is the general concencus with most folks.

I don't think Tyson was a jerk. I don't think anyone is all-bad, and Tyson had plenty of good attributes within his personality. The problem was he was a moron with the judgement of a lemming.

[The Kurgan]

some might agree.. but to say, he had choices, is just too easy..

we are talking about a young boy, living in an enviroment, not suited for humans..

we are talking about a young man, becoming a star, and in the meantime, the one guy, who had "rescued" him, dies. right in the middle of the proces of becoming a man.

there are circumstances, that may not excuse tyson´s behaviour, but certainly explain them..

tyson never had consistency, not before cus entered his life, and the type tyson is, needs a strong consistent type of character to keep him in line..

whether or not he could do it, whether or not cus would be succesfull, is hard to answer, but one thing is for sure, that hadnt he died, he could still work with tyson, he could still try to maintain his focus, while helping him and keeping him mentally allright.,

it would be stupid to claim, that this wouldnt help, we surely all will agree upon, that it would be better to keep cus, rather them him dying. when taking tyson´s perspective.

maybe he couldnt have kept tyson in line his entire life, but he could have given him some tools, and at tyson age, when cus died, he surely needed every bit of advice from cus, whether as adoptive parent or mentor.

personally i dont think tyson would go undefeated, with or without cus, at some time, he would lose focus, but i just dont think he would have fucked everything up, with the mentorship and "parenting" cus could offer.

In career terms, D'Amato being immortal would be a bad thing. In personal terms, maybe it would be a good thing. Maybe not; we can't say. The fact is, Tyson's weak character would always lead to his demise, because (as he showed time after time) when Tyson is given a hand to take him out of a cesspit he bites it.

[mr. magoo]

I don't think Tyson was a jerk. I don't think anyone is all-bad, and Tyson had plenty of good attributes within his personality. The problem was he was a moron with the judgement of a lemming.

To each his own opinion I guess.

Frankly, I find a person who rapes another human being, bites flesh out of another man's ear, associates with gang members, and makes some of the comments that he did regarding whites, is a pretty big jerk.
But hey, that's just me. :conf

[Primadonna Kool]

I'm afraid I'm in the school of thought that says Cus at best didn't alleviate Mike's problems, and at worst exacerbated them...he gave Mike an output for his anger, and developed his technique, but he was far more concerned about Mike's glory in the ring than making him into some kind of reformed citizen. He turned a blind eye to the issues Mike was already suffering from, because that made him a better fighter...sadly not a better person.

The only person who wanted to build them qualities in a young man, teach him discipline and stress how much you should respect certain things in life, WAS Teddy Atlas.
Drummed into his mind, the importance of work ethic, making him understand it. The reason why Teddy Atlas sound bitter now, is because he was the only person who was probably just as much concerned with Mike Tyson the person as the fighter.

Teddy Atlas

[mightyd40]

i believe so, many are saying that tyson would have acted out against cus but i dont think he would have.........imo he certainly had the talent to break any record but his lifestyle got in the way..........i honestly believe that he loved and trusted cus with everything and would have listened to him had he not passed away

[la-califa]

Most of Tyson's demons Were everyone tearing at him like Jaekels after Cus Died.

[salsanchezfan]

I'm afraid I'm in the school of thought that says Cus at best didn't alleviate Mike's problems, and at worst exacerbated them...he gave Mike an output for his anger, and developed his technique, but he was far more concerned about Mike's glory in the ring than making him into some kind of reformed citizen. He turned a blind eye to the issues Mike was already suffering from, because that made him a better fighter...sadly not a better person.


............Absolutely; let's not forget Tyson hadn't yet hit the pinnacle when Cus died. As mentioned here and by others, Tyson was excused by Cus for a hell of a lot of transgressions, transgressions that would have been blown up and fed upon by the press the more famous Tyson became. He already misbehaved under Cus' tutelage, so what in the world would lead one to believe he would toe the mark with him when the bright lights got hot? He'd have done exactly as he did anyway. Cus or no Cus. D'Amato was a very good trainer, but anyone who says Cus was able to control him is kidding themselves or hasn't done a lot of research.

[fists of fury]

Cus by himself would have found Tyson too much of a handful, eventually. However, with Jimmy Jacobs in tow, team Tyson could have kept the reigns on Iron Mike.
These were the two men who Tyson looked up to and respected above all others. Someone like King would not have had the influence over Tyson that he eventually did if Cus and Jacobs were around.

D'Amato died relatively early into Tyson's pro career, but Jacobs stayed around much longer than that and died in '88. Before his death, the lid was kept on Tyson for the most part.
It's only after Jacobs' death that things went to shit. The final nail in the coffin was when Rooney was sacked.

Having said that, Tyson was 37-0 before he met Douglas, and a world away from 50-0. I think that 50-0 would have been a bridge too far for Tyson, even if he had all three of the 'holy trinity' behind him.
However, there probably would have been no Tokyo and his legacy would have looked a damn side better than it does.

[DamonD]

I do remember Frank Bruno making some interesting points about what he thought of Tyson's psychology and mind games in his book...I really must find it tonight and type them up here.

[Vantage_West]

Some people think Tyson was an angel under D'Amato's protection, but he has always been a punk. He got expelled from his school when he lived with Cus, he had that famous incident with that big mouth's niece.. maybe Cus could've kept him out of trouble for a little longer, but Tyson's always been a time bomb.

On top of that, boxers with his style never have a long lasting career, no matter how much of a father type the trainer is.

And who's to say Tyson wouldn't ditch Cus when Don King knows to manipulate him? After all, he also fired Rooney and believed a lot of lies that King told him... i wouldn't be suprised if it would've happened somewhere early 90's, creating a new Buster Douglas.he was a tough kid but with cus he wasnt as volatile as king made him.

he was learning to be loved he never got that before. king just gave him ammunation to be angry.

mike was like a ming vase, when cus got he him he placed him on a pedestal for all to see and admire. he polished him, he adored him he did everything right to make him his own

when king got to him.he just picked him up and said "catch"

[josak]

Tyson was extremely close to Cus & Jacos. Cus was like a father to Mike. I dunno how you guys are saying Mike would turn his back on them or run out of control. He was still developing not only as a fighter but as a person. Whether he would of hit rock bottom or not anyway, is up for debate, but no one can say for sure.

[Marciano Frazier]

Even if D'Amato had kept his mind better in check, I'm sure at least Holyfield or Bowe or Lewis would've beaten him before he reached 50-0.

[mr. magoo]

............Absolutely; let's not forget Tyson hadn't yet hit the pinnacle when Cus died. As mentioned here and by others, Tyson was excused by Cus for a hell of a lot of transgressions, transgressions that would have been blown up and fed upon by the press the more famous Tyson became. He already misbehaved under Cus' tutelage, so what in the world would lead one to believe he would toe the mark with him when the bright lights got hot? He'd have done exactly as he did anyway. Cus or no Cus. D'Amato was a very good trainer, but anyone who says Cus was able to control him is kidding themselves or hasn't done a lot of research.

Agree on all accounts.

One example of something that Cus allowed Tyson to do while in his custody, was drop out of highschool in his second year. I don't know about anbody else, but if Cus was supposed to be a father type figure stearing him in life's better directions, this sure didn't look like it to me.

[fists of fury]

I don't know about anbody else, but if Cus was supposed to be a father type figure stearing him in life's better directions, this sure didn't look like it to me.

Ultimately, Cus was acting selfishly. He wanted another champion before he died and he obviously thought Tyson had the goods. Cus realised he didn't have a lot of time left.
A lot of stuff Mike did was swept under the table by D'Amato, or smoothed over.
In some ways he was a father figure and in some ways he was simply using Mike.

[JohnThomas1]

D'Amato died in late 1985. Most of what you're talking about didn't really kick into gear for another two years after that. Talk about a slow breakdown!

Tyson looked fitter in 1986 and 1987 than ever before. 1988 was arguably the peak of his abilities. Kevin Rooney stayed on with him until, what, about early 1989 (before the Bruno fight, certainly)?

I'd say later events with Rooney being too strict for Tyson, Jacobs' death, and the Cayton fiasco affected Tyson far more. It wasn't D'Amato's death which ruined Tyson's life; it was Tyson and the crappy choices he made in life.

That's a superb post, as are some of your others in this thread. Instant clarity. With quality like this, your nick should be "The Highlander"

:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

Probably more than he did.

Yes.