what where the 10 greatest upsets in boxing history?

[good right hand]

i was thinking about this for a while,

i put bradocks win over buster douglas as the greatest upset in my book because i felt douglas was a natural heavy weight and a legitimate contender.

1. james bradock def max baer
2. james douglas def mike tyson
3. ray leonard def marvin hagler
4. george foreman def michael moorer
5. frankie randall def julio caesar chavez
6. antonio tarver def roy jones jr
7. michael spinks def larry holmes
8. robero duran def iran barkley
9. evander holyfeild def mike tyson
10. lloyd honeyghan def donald curry


my list is very spotty, so please fill me in about the ones i missed :deal

[peter5]

I dont think Number 9 is an upset is it?

[JohnThomas1]

You missed Ali over both Liston and Foreman. He was around 6 or 7/1 in both.

[JohnThomas1]

I dont think Number 9 is an upset is it?

The odds on Holyfield were long. I'm trying to think if he was even fave in the rematch.

[peter5]

maybe going by the odds on the fight, but not when you consider it from the point of view that tyson was nowhere near the fighter he was!

[TBooze]

The odds on Holyfield were long. I'm trying to think if he was even fave in the rematch.

I got 24/1 on a Holyfield win (first fight of course). I think Tyson was 2/5 favourite in the rematch with Holyfield at 7/4.

[JohnThomas1]

maybe going by the odds on the fight, but not when you consider it from the point of view that tyson was nowhere near the fighter he was!

Not at all. Tyson was declared as good as he had been pre prison and just look at the odds TBooze got on Holyfield. The world believed Tyson was back to close to his best, hindsight and opinion doesn't impact at all on what a big upset this was.

[JohnThomas1]

I got 24/1 on a Holyfield win (first fight of course). I think Tyson was 2/5 favourite in the rematch with Holyfield at 7/4.

Well done. Isn't the Tyson mystique amazing, even after Holyfield's supreme effort Mike is still the strong fave. Unreal.

[TBooze]

Well done. Isn't the Tyson mystique amazing, even after Holyfield's supreme effort Mike is still the strong fave. Unreal.

Yes from Berbick up to the Lewis fight, Tyson was pretty much unbackable unless you were some zillionaire. Another intresting point is about the Berbick fight: By bell time Tyson was a strong 1/3 favourite, but believe it or not, the fight was pick-em until the final week of the build up.

[JohnThomas1]

Yes from Berbick up to the Lewis fight, Tyson was pretty much unbackable unless you were some zillionaire. Another intresting point is about the Berbick fight: By bell time Tyson was a strong 1/3 favourite, but believe it or not, the fight was pick-em until the final week of the build up.

Yeah, i remember there were a few doubts, how was he going to go vs a genuine opponent with vast experience and there was the never been done at that age thing too. I got even money on Lewis with a few $50 wagers between pals. I am pretty sure Lewis was 7/5 fave.

[peter5]

Not at all. Tyson was declared as good as he had been pre prison and just look at the odds TBooze got on Holyfield. The world believed Tyson was back to close to his best, hindsight and opinion doesn't impact at all on what a big upset this was.

decalred by who? i never expected him to win, so in MY opinion it wasnt an upset, thats all im saying

[Pat_Lowe]

Well done. Isn't the Tyson mystique amazing, even after Holyfield's supreme effort Mike is still the strong fave. Unreal.

I believe that just before the fight the odds on the first Holyfield-Tyson fight shortened to 6-1. But thats still a pretty big underdog.

In regards to this thread, I think Judah-Baldomir was a pretty big upset. Don't know what the odds were though.

[TBooze]

I think it was either Douglas/Tyson or Schmeling/LouisI that were statistically the biggest upsets.

Mentions can go to Ali(Clay)/ListonI; Ali/Foreman; Spinks/AliI; Honeyghan/Curry; Turpin/RobinsonI; Jones/GriffinI; Benn/Watson; Sullivan/Corbett and due to the times probably Johnson/Jeffries

[JohnThomas1]

decalred by who? i never expected him to win, so in MY opinion it wasnt an upset, thats all im saying

Fair enough, it certainly fits perfectly in here tho. Not a single person i spoke (many) to was picking Holyfield. In hindsight i'd take his unbelievable spirit vs any Tyson, tho i thought Holy a bit undergunned at the time having come from cruiserweight. Great fight.

[JohnThomas1]

I believe that just before the fight the odds on the first Holyfield-Tyson fight shortened to 6-1. But thats still a pretty big underdog.


Thanks Pat, no surprise. Any fighter as good as Holyfield was worth money at those odds. Hearn's came from 4-1 to 2-1 the day of the Hill fight.

[cardstars]

i was thinking about this for a while,

i put bradocks win over buster douglas as the greatest upset in my book because i felt douglas was a natural heavy weight and a legitimate contender.

1. james bradock def max baer
2. james douglas def mike tyson
3. ray leonard def marvin hagler
4. george foreman def michael moorer
5. frankie randall def julio caesar chavez
6. antonio tarver def roy jones jr
7. michael spinks def larry holmes
8. robero duran def iran barkley
9. evander holyfeild def mike tyson
10. lloyd honeyghan def donald curry


my list is very spotty, so please fill me in about the ones i missed :deal

#3 - Hagler didn't lose to Leonard in my book :D

[peter5]

what were the odds for the first barrera pacman fight? surely marco was fav for that one, pac wasnt was well known then

[Minotauro]

Rahman over Lewis was huge nobody gave Rahman a chance.

[doublesuited]

Michael Bentt over Tommy Morrison.

I imagine a lot of people lost some major money over that fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Well done. Isn't the Tyson mystique amazing, even after Holyfield's supreme effort Mike is still the strong fave. Unreal.

It sure is.

Going into the fight, Holyfield was washed up, and after it, it was a prime Holyfield vs a shot Tyson. :lol:

I think Liston also still something like a 2 to 1 favorite in the Clay-rematch. History repeating itself during Tyson-Holyfield II.

[Drew101]

Al McCoy over George Chip was a massive upset, and almost certainly warrants placement in the top 5.

[Luigi1985]

Another good example would be Young Corbett III against Jimmy McLarnin for the World Welterweight Title...

[Dempsey1238]

Corbett Sullivan.

[Luigi1985]

Corbett Sullivan.


It wasn´t a real surprise under the real experts. Sullivan was in overweight and old, Corbett on the other side was skills-wise 2 leagues above and young and hungry...


but I agree, in general a big upset...

[Dempsey1238]

At the time it was. Same with Tyson Holyfiled. Sullivan before he face Corbett was deem unbeatble. No one though Sullivan could have been beating.

Jeff Johnson is other upset, that in later we know was no big deal. Same goes with Liston Ali 1 and 2. Now we dont look at the Liston fights as big of a upset any more.

[Duodenum]

1---SRL/Hagler. Even if adopting the position that Marv was the rightful winner, there was nothing to indicate Ray could compete with Marv like that. Although only 30 years old, he'd had only one match over the preceding five years, against fringe WW contender Kevin Howard, a bout in which Ray sustained his first career knockdown, and would have lost badly if the referee did not award him with a ninth round gift stoppage. Beyond that, southpaws Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds exposed significant technical deficiencies of Ray's against left handed opposition, and he was entering a contest against the consensus greatest southpaw champion in boxing history, as well as the generally acclaimed number one P4P boxer in the world at that time. Even with a shortened 12 round limit, ten ounce gloves, and a ring size suited for Ray, the quality of his performance still makes no sense in hindsight.

2---Clay/Liston I. When looking at how LH Doug Jones nearly dropped him in the first round a year earlier, and arguably deserved to win, the way he had been flattened by left hooks from Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper, and the severity with which Cooper stunned him in his previous match, then juxtaposing that against the length and power of Liston's left hook and body attack, the overwhelming odds in Liston's favor were reasonable. The skinny kid who got nailed by Banks, Jones and Cooper didn't appear remotely strong enough to stand up to Sonny.

3---Braddock/Baer. The arthritic Braddock had just turned 30, had 25 losses, and had to get off the deck to defeat novice professional Corn Griffin a year earlier. He also had a right hand which had been previously broken in competition. Baer was on a 14 match win streak which included a dominant 20 round decision over King Levinski, and the two greatest performances of his career immediately preceding his title defense against Braddock. Tommy Loughran boxed circles around Jimmy when Braddock failed to lift Loughran's LH Title in 1929. After Tommy decisioned Baer in 1931, he advised Maxie that he was telegraphing his shots, thus helping Baer improve his effectiveness. Maxie had never been floored, and had been undefeated for nearly four years. He was only 26 years old, and looked like he might dominate the heavyweights for years.

4---Holmes/Mercer. Larry was considered by many to be a rapidly aging boxer as early as his third title defense against Mike Weaver in 1979, before Holmes had even turned 30. Being one of the purest boxers to ever hold the HW Title, he didn't enjoy the benefit of being allowed a puncher's chance to win. He had been blown out by Mike Tyson in four rounds, over four years earlier, and at age 42 was nearly 35 pounds over the optimal weight of his youth. Mercer was an undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist coming off a devastating win over previously undefeated phenom Tommy Morrision. Just 30 years old, and with only 18 professional bouts behind him, he seemed primed to contend for the undisputed championship. Instead, the cagey veteran outboxed his powerful adversary from beginning to end, en route to his own shot at the title. An amazingly unexpected triumph.

5---Foreman/Moorer. No explanation necessary.

6---Pedro Flores/Yoko Gushiken. Fierce Eagle was considered by Harold Lederman to be the P4P best in the world, and a virtual lock to move up from the light flyweight division to consolidate the flyweight championships. Just 25 years old, he was undefeated, considered by many to be the greatest southpaw of the late 1970's, and had held the WBA Light Flyweight Title for about five years. He had defeated Flores via 15 round decision six months earlier, and was defending his championship for the 16th time against an opponent who was only 16-7, with three knockout losses, and who had just turned 30 while competing in a division which places a premium on youth. Gushiken was also defending his title in Japan. He never had any difficulties making the 108 pound divisional limit, and this was expected to be a routine defense against a challenger he had floored in their previous encounter. Gushiken always did better in rematches. Instead, Flores stunned the Japanese audience with a 198 punch barrage in round 12, and stopped Gushiken in the 13th. Fierce Eagle never flew again, and Flores never won another match.

7---Ritchie Sandoval/Jeff Chandler. After just two amateur bouts, Joltin' Jeff moved up the ranks quickly as a professional, eventually unifying the USBA and NABF Bantamweight Titles. With his upset of previously undefeated Julian Solis for the WBA Bantamweight Championship, he became the first American to hold that title since the legendary Manuel Ortiz lost it to Vic Toweel over 30 years before, and established himself as a popular fixture on American television. Since drawing in his pro debut, he'd sustained only two blemishes on his record; a title fight draw against undefeated Eijiro Murata in Murata's Japan, and a non-title split decision loss to Oscar Muniz in Atlantic City. Both blemishes were avenged with title fight kayos. Something of a physical marvel with a high metabolism, Jeff never had any trouble making weight for any of his defenses. Only 27 years old, he had already punched his ticket to enshrinement in the future IBHOF. Undefeated and exciting prospect Ritchie Sandoval was 22-0, but wasn't expected to seriously challenge Chandler for his title. However, just as Flores had done to Gushiken three years earlier, Sandoval stunned Chandler, dropping Jeff for the first time in his career, and stopping him in 15. Like Gushiken, Chandler never fought again.

Who knows, perhaps if Gushiken and Chandler had continued their winning ways, they might have eventually collided in an international superfight, but we never got a chance to find out.

8---Michael Spinks/Larry Holmes I. Larry had easily blown out Mike's big brother Leon, and while Mike was an unknown quantity at heavyweight, he was attempting boxing's equivalent of the four minute mile against the heavyweight division's reigning champion for eight years running, the second HW titlist to post 20 successful defenses of the crown, and an undefeated boxer aiming to make history himself by matching Rocky Marciano at 49-0. Mike upset the apple cart, and blazed the trail that let Evander Holyfield, RJJ, and James Toney know such an achievement was indeed possible.

9---Leon Spinks/Muhammad Ali I. Leon was the least skilled member of the 1976 U.S. Olympic boxing team, yet with heart and determination he managed a massive upset win over the lethal Cuban Sixto Soria, dropping and stopping him to take home a gold medal. His professional career had been nothing to write home about however, especially with a draw on neutral territory to Scott LeDoux. Ali was clearly in decline, but he was coming off a decent performance against deadly Earnie Shavers, a contest which saw Ali nearly take Shavers out in the final round. Leon was the least experienced challenger for the HW Title since Pete Rademacher debuted against Patterson, and he was the first sub 200 pounder to fight for the big prize since Foreman blew out hapless King Roman in one round in Tokyo. Carrying out Sam Solomon's instructions to the letter, Leon pounded away at Ali's arms when Muhammad leaned back against the ropes, slice through his guard with uppercuts, and managed to withstand Ali's late surge to pull off the split decison upset.

10---Duran/Barkley. The Blade had bombed out the man who dumped Duran flat on his face five years earlier. But the 38 year old Duran got himself down to the lowest weight he'd been at since that disastrous evening against Hearns, and dropped Barkley en route to a title winning effort, despite what may have been the greatest performance of Barkley's career! His triumphal masterpiece prompted Ray Arcel to suggest, "I think he may know more about boxing than I do."

[Nemesis]

What odds was Kirkland Laing against Dooran

[Dempsey1238]

Ali Liston is over rated as a upset. Liston was not even in shape for the fight.

[Duodenum]

Ali Liston is over rated as a upset. Liston was not even in shape for the fight.It makes perfect sense only in hindsight. Before the fact, that outcome was almost completely unforseeable, given the immediately preceding history of both.

[TBooze]

It wasn´t a real surprise under the real experts. Sullivan was in overweight and old, Corbett on the other side was skills-wise 2 leagues above and young and hungry...


but I agree, in general a big upset...

A huge upset, and you are using a lot of hindsight. Like the myth of invincibilty that surrounded a Liston, Foreman or Tyson, few could see the truth. Even legitmate scholars of the sport saw Sullivan winning.

[Dempsey1238]

Same goes with Corbett Sullivan, Jeff Johnson ete. Or even Holyfiled Tyson.

[Muchmoore]

maybe going by the odds on the fight, but not when you consider it from the point of view that tyson was nowhere near the fighter he was!

Most of the defeated fighters on that list weren't.

[Vantage_West]

Rahman over Lewis was huge nobody gave Rahman a chance.agreed..it helped both careers it made rahman the lineal heavywieght champion(and kept him in the picture for so long) and gave lewis a fire that he lost...but yet again big upset

[Vantage_West]

It wasn´t a real surprise under the real experts. Sullivan was in overweight and old, Corbett on the other side was skills-wise 2 leagues above and young and hungry...


but I agree, in general a big upset...it was a big upset but in later eyes you could tell that sullivan is a london prize fighter not a marques fighter corbett used the rules to his advantages and won at the time sullivan was a dempsey or tyson like figure. he was a man of brute strength and bad intentions.

corbett was the sugar ray clay jones jr of his day and won like a boxer should do.

big upset but it was an old fighter vs a young very skilled fighter.



and for all the other fights a upset doesnt mean that a man is shot or isnt prime like tyson vs holyfield or lewis rahman.
it's the general publics opinion that one man is gonna win. dempsey tunney was a big upset so was the 2nd (dempsey was still the favorite for the rematch) but in later years we notice how old, ring rusted and undertrained he was.

[redrooster]

Schmeling-Louis I was an upset, also Hopkins-Trinidad, Tito was a huge favourite.

My pick was Hopkins but what do I know?

[redrooster]

Sandoval-Chandler is a memorable upset. In a battle royal, RS could do no wrong while Jeff could do little more than complain about Sandoval's holding but in truth, Sandoval was in control every moment until the carnage ended.

As far as upsets go, this was much more so than Leonard-Hagler because it was a decisive win and more than that, very one sided.

[redrooster]

1---SRL/Hagler. Even if adopting the position that Marv was the rightful winner, there was nothing to indicate Ray could compete with Marv like that. Although only 30 years old, he'd had only one match over the preceding five years, against fringe WW contender Kevin Howard, a bout in which Ray sustained his first career knockdown, and would have lost badly if the referee did not award him with a ninth round gift stoppage. Beyond that, southpaws Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds exposed significant technical deficiencies of Ray's against left handed opposition, and he was entering a contest against the consensus greatest southpaw champion in boxing history, as well as the generally acclaimed number one P4P boxer in the world at that time. Even with a shortened 12 round limit, ten ounce gloves, and a ring size suited for Ray, the quality of his performance still makes no sense in hindsight.

i think most people forget how many experts and celebrities, not to mention fans, were actually picking leonard to win the fight.

[Duodenum]

i think most people forget how many experts and celebrities, not to mention fans, were actually picking leonard to win the fight.True, but rationally speaking, it wasn't a logical conclusion to draw beforehand. John Mugabi was an absolutely awesome looking contender, yet Hagler took everything he had, sent him into a grudging retreat, and dropped him for the count, in what may have been the peak performance of Mugabe's career. Given all that, it didn't seem as though Hagler was noticably slipping. Credit Marv's opponents prior to SRL for employing a style suitable for enabling Hagler to cloak his dimished speed and reflexes from many observers. Ray was very, very observant of Hagler's performance in the Mugabe fight from his ringside vantage point. Very shrewd perception.

[Dempsey1238]

What were the odds for Dempsey Tunney 2??
for fight 1, I think Tunney was a 7-1 underdog.

[Titan1]

Leon Spinks-Muhammad Ali
Mike Weaver-John Tate

Those two could be added.

[Dempsey1238]

Ali should have NEVER lost to Spinks. Gold medal winner or not. We dont see Marciano or Louis loseing there titles to 7-0 fighters. But guys like Patterson was deck by a 0-0 fighter in a title defense. At Least Patterson got up and won that fight. I cant say the same for Ali in that regard.

[redrooster]

Ali was way over the hill. I think every fighter no matter how great has at least one performance to be embarrassed over - except for Monzon.

[mr. magoo]

We dont see Marciano or Louis loseing there titles to 7-0 fighters.

Were Marciano and Louis still defending their titles at the age of 36 ?

[Dempsey1238]

Thing is, Still at 36 of age, Louis or Marciano would not have been beating by a novice. Hell Louis at 37 was beating top contenders before Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

Thing is, Still at 36 of age, Louis or Marciano would not have been beating by a novice. Hell Louis at 37 was beating top contenders before Marciano.

That isn't the point. Fact is, neither of those guys were holding belts at that age. Louis was done being champ at 34, and marciano retired at 32, after being floored by a 39 year old lightheavyweight. Also, jimmy Bivens and Lee Savold were both past it when Louis fought them in preparation for the Marciano fight. I'll agree that Ali shouldn't have lost to Spinks, but you can't start up with this hypothetical bullshit, about what Louis and Marciano would or wouldn't do, especially if both of them had already relinquished their titles by that stage in their careers.

[Dempsey1238]

Johnson didnt lose his title to a 7-0 novice. Outside of Fitz, and Ali, no other heavyweight champ lost there crown to a 7-0 novice. (And Jeff was 12-0)

[ironchamp]

decalred by who? i never expected him to win, so in MY opinion it wasnt an upset, thats all im saying

Tyson Holyfield was an upset no matter what way you try to slice it.

Tyson Douglas IMO should rank #1 in terms of biggest upsets.

[torchkit]

I dont think Number 9 is an upset is it?Holyfield was a 25-1 underdog in the first bout.

[mr. magoo]

Johnson didnt lose his title to a 7-0 novice. Outside of Fitz, and Ali, no other heavyweight champ lost there crown to a 7-0 novice. (And Jeff was 12-0)

So what? This has nothing to do with Johnson, Fitz, Jeffries or anyone else. The fact is, Ali was well past his prime, and quite possibly entering the early stages of a very disabling illness. What's more, he was facing a young olympian, who had just beaten a few good contenders, and who had everything in the world to prove. Also, Ali managed to regain the title in the rematch. How many times did Louis, Marciano, Johnson, Jeffries or Fitszimmons reagain their belts?

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano didnt need to regain the title.

The others failed in title fights. But Ali also failed to regain the title vs Frazier and Holmes. Louis, Jeff, had 1 chance to do it. Johnson never got other shot when he lost it, Ali got plenty of chances to do it in his case.

[ChrisPontius]

1---SRL/Hagler. Even if adopting the position that Marv was the rightful winner, there was nothing to indicate Ray could compete with Marv like that. Although only 30 years old, he'd had only one match over the preceding five years, against fringe WW contender Kevin Howard, a bout in which Ray sustained his first career knockdown, and would have lost badly if the referee did not award him with a ninth round gift stoppage. Beyond that, southpaws Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds exposed significant technical deficiencies of Ray's against left handed opposition, and he was entering a contest against the consensus greatest southpaw champion in boxing history, as well as the generally acclaimed number one P4P boxer in the world at that time. Even with a shortened 12 round limit, ten ounce gloves, and a ring size suited for Ray, the quality of his performance still makes no sense in hindsight.

2---Clay/Liston I. When looking at how LH Doug Jones nearly dropped him in the first round a year earlier, and arguably deserved to win, the way he had been flattened by left hooks from Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper, and the severity with which Cooper stunned him in his previous match, then juxtaposing that against the length and power of Liston's left hook and body attack, the overwhelming odds in Liston's favor were reasonable. The skinny kid who got nailed by Banks, Jones and Cooper didn't appear remotely strong enough to stand up to Sonny.

3---Braddock/Baer. The arthritic Braddock had just turned 30, had 25 losses, and had to get off the deck to defeat novice professional Corn Griffin a year earlier. He also had a right hand which had been previously broken in competition. Baer was on a 14 match win streak which included a dominant 20 round decision over King Levinski, and the two greatest performances of his career immediately preceding his title defense against Braddock. Tommy Loughran boxed circles around Jimmy when Braddock failed to lift Loughran's LH Title in 1929. After Tommy decisioned Baer in 1931, he advised Maxie that he was telegraphing his shots, thus helping Baer improve his effectiveness. Maxie had never been floored, and had been undefeated for nearly four years. He was only 26 years old, and looked like he might dominate the heavyweights for years.

4---Holmes/Mercer. Larry was considered by many to be a rapidly aging boxer as early as his third title defense against Mike Weaver in 1979, before Holmes had even turned 30. Being one of the purest boxers to ever hold the HW Title, he didn't enjoy the benefit of being allowed a puncher's chance to win. He had been blown out by Mike Tyson in four rounds, over four years earlier, and at age 42 was nearly 35 pounds over the optimal weight of his youth. Mercer was an undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist coming off a devastating win over previously undefeated phenom Tommy Morrision. Just 30 years old, and with only 18 professional bouts behind him, he seemed primed to contend for the undisputed championship. Instead, the cagey veteran outboxed his powerful adversary from beginning to end, en route to his own shot at the title. An amazingly unexpected triumph.

5---Foreman/Moorer. No explanation necessary.

6---Pedro Flores/Yoko Gushiken. Fierce Eagle was considered by Harold Lederman to be the P4P best in the world, and a virtual lock to move up from the light flyweight division to consolidate the flyweight championships. Just 25 years old, he was undefeated, considered by many to be the greatest southpaw of the late 1970's, and had held the WBA Light Flyweight Title for about five years. He had defeated Flores via 15 round decision six months earlier, and was defending his championship for the 16th time against an opponent who was only 16-7, with three knockout losses, and who had just turned 30 while competing in a division which places a premium on youth. Gushiken was also defending his title in Japan. He never had any difficulties making the 108 pound divisional limit, and this was expected to be a routine defense against a challenger he had floored in their previous encounter. Gushiken always did better in rematches. Instead, Flores stunned the Japanese audience with a 198 punch barrage in round 12, and stopped Gushiken in the 13th. Fierce Eagle never flew again, and Flores never won another match.

7---Ritchie Sandoval/Jeff Chandler. After just two amateur bouts, Joltin' Jeff moved up the ranks quickly as a professional, eventually unifying the USBA and NABF Bantamweight Titles. With his upset of previously undefeated Julian Solis for the WBA Bantamweight Championship, he became the first American to hold that title since the legendary Manuel Ortiz lost it to Vic Toweel over 30 years before, and established himself as a popular fixture on American television. Since drawing in his pro debut, he'd sustained only two blemishes on his record; a title fight draw against undefeated Eijiro Murata in Murata's Japan, and a non-title split decision loss to Oscar Muniz in Atlantic City. Both blemishes were avenged with title fight kayos. Something of a physical marvel with a high metabolism, Jeff never had any trouble making weight for any of his defenses. Only 27 years old, he had already punched his ticket to enshrinement in the future IBHOF. Undefeated and exciting prospect Ritchie Sandoval was 22-0, but wasn't expected to seriously challenge Chandler for his title. However, just as Flores had done to Gushiken three years earlier, Sandoval stunned Chandler, dropping Jeff for the first time in his career, and stopping him in 15. Like Gushiken, Chandler never fought again.

Who knows, perhaps if Gushiken and Chandler had continued their winning ways, they might have eventually collided in an international superfight, but we never got a chance to find out.

8---Michael Spinks/Larry Holmes I. Larry had easily blown out Mike's big brother Leon, and while Mike was an unknown quantity at heavyweight, he was attempting boxing's equivalent of the four minute mile against the heavyweight division's reigning champion for eight years running, the second HW titlist to post 20 successful defenses of the crown, and an undefeated boxer aiming to make history himself by matching Rocky Marciano at 49-0. Mike upset the apple cart, and blazed the trail that let Evander Holyfield, RJJ, and James Toney know such an achievement was indeed possible.

9---Leon Spinks/Muhammad Ali I. Leon was the least skilled member of the 1976 U.S. Olympic boxing team, yet with heart and determination he managed a massive upset win over the lethal Cuban Sixto Soria, dropping and stopping him to take home a gold medal. His professional career had been nothing to write home about however, especially with a draw on neutral territory to Scott LeDoux. Ali was clearly in decline, but he was coming off a decent performance against deadly Earnie Shavers, a contest which saw Ali nearly take Shavers out in the final round. Leon was the least experienced challenger for the HW Title since Pete Rademacher debuted against Patterson, and he was the first sub 200 pounder to fight for the big prize since Foreman blew out hapless King Roman in one round in Tokyo. Carrying out Sam Solomon's instructions to the letter, Leon pounded away at Ali's arms when Muhammad leaned back against the ropes, slice through his guard with uppercuts, and managed to withstand Ali's late surge to pull off the split decison upset.

10---Duran/Barkley. The Blade had bombed out the man who dumped Duran flat on his face five years earlier. But the 38 year old Duran got himself down to the lowest weight he'd been at since that disastrous evening against Hearns, and dropped Barkley en route to a title winning effort, despite what may have been the greatest performance of Barkley's career! His triumphal masterpiece prompted Ray Arcel to suggest, "I think he may know more about boxing than I do."

Good list but you forgot two of the biggest upsets - Tyson Douglas and Tyson-Holyfield I.

[janitor]

Holyfield was a 25-1 underdog in the first bout.

No world class fighter should ever be a 25-1 underdog.

Douglas should have been a 10-1 underdog going into the Tyson fight.

Hollyfield should have been 3-1 in the first fight.

[janitor]

Schmeling-Louis I was an upset

Perhaps in hindsight it should not be seen as such a huge upset.

Louis was still in his second year as a profesional fighter and had been inactive for the last six months. Schmeling was also a much greater threat stylisticaly than either Carnera or Baer.

Again in hindsight the odds should perhaps have been set at about 3-1 against Schmeling rather than 10-1.

[AREA 53]

Randy Turpin over Sugar Ray Robinson
Jersey Joe Walcott Over Ezzard Charles

[AREA 53]

Oh Yes, Chu Chu Castillo mus of been a big underdog when upsetting the (as Then) undefeated Ruben Olivares.

[mr. magoo]

Dempsey1238]Marciano didnt need to regain the title.


Of course he didn't. He retired at the end of a rather weak era, and at fairly young age at that. What's more, he rejected offers to come out of retirement when the division once again began to flood with talent.

But Ali also failed to regain the title vs Frazier and Holmes.

These are not valid criticisms on your part.
Ali was 38 years old and hadn't fought in two years against a prime Holmes, who was well underway to being an all time great himself. Plus Ali had already by that point acheived the feat of becoming a 3 time champ which is something no other fighter had previously done. Joe Frazier defeated Ali, but only after Muhammad had returned from a near 4 year layoff with only 2 tunup bouts. Once he got his fight game back, he beat Frazier twice and regained the crown by dusting Foreman who destroyed Frazier.


Johnson never got other shot when he lost it,

You're not really going to attempt to argue that Jack Johnson was even in Ali's league are you?



Ali got plenty of chances to do it in his case.
[/quote]

And during the most competitive era in the sport, of which he was successful in most of his attemps.

[Dempsey1238]

The thing is if Ali just got 1 shot, he would have been in the long line of guys that failed to regain the title. Louis didnt get 3 or so chances to regain the title, Nor did Jack Johnson or Jeff. The thing is Ali was able to regain the title because he got more than 1 mere chance in regaining the belt.

For the record, Johnson is in Ali's league.

[OLD FOGEY]

So what? This has nothing to do with Johnson, Fitz, Jeffries or anyone else. The fact is, Ali was well past his prime, and quite possibly entering the early stages of a very disabling illness. What's more, he was facing a young olympian, who had just beaten a few good contenders, and who had everything in the world to prove. Also, Ali managed to regain the title in the rematch. How many times did Louis, Marciano, Johnson, Jeffries or Fitszimmons reagain their belts?

What good contenders? Spinks had never fought a top ten man prior to defeating Ali. In his whole career, Spinks never defeated a top five fighter except for Ali and only 2 top ten fighters, Evangelista and Mercado, who were nothing special.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Dempsey1238]The thing is if Ali just got 1 shot, he would have been in the long line of guys that failed to regain the title.

Ali EARNED his second chances, by beating the top contenders of his era. He won his rematches with Frazier and Norton and defeated several other top fighters, before getting a shot at Foreman. The other guys you mentioned weren't successful at getting themselves back into contention. Louis failed against contender Marciano. Jeffries chose to retire undefeated, and remained inactive for 6 years before finally coming out to face Johnson. You're comparing apples to oranges.

For the record, Johnson is in Ali's league.

No he wasn't. Just because he was the first black champion, doesn't mean he was one of the best champions. Ali's competition and acheivements were infinately better. Johnson wouldn't even have beaten some of Ali's better opponents.

[Duodenum]

Good list but you forgot two of the biggest upsets - Tyson Douglas and Tyson-Holyfield I.I was trying to confine the list to ten upsets. The only matches of Tyson's I'd viewed at the time of the Douglas fight were against Quick Tillis, Blood Green, Bonecrusher Smith, and Tony Tucker. In those 44 combined rounds of action, I saw Mike score exactly one inconsequential flash knockdown, against Tillis. Then, Greg Page dropped Tyson in sparring for the Douglas match. I was actually more surprised that Smith did not knock out Tyson before Douglas did. Douglas had beaten Cobb, Page, Berbick and McCall, so I figured it was possible he could decision Tyson. I will admit though, that I didn't expect him to kayo Mike as he did.

Holyfield had 14 wins over 13 world title claimants, including seven HW title claimants, and also secured his 15 round championship pedigree in the first Qawi matchup. By the time Holyfield had his first match with Tyson, I had watched two more of Mike's fights; the kayo loss to Douglas, and his 12 round decision win in the rematch with Ruddock. So in 66 total rounds of action, I saw Tyson get knocked out, and score a grand total of four knockdowns. Consider that first impressions are lasting impressions, and obviously the first impression Tyson made on me was, "What's all the fuss about?"

I didn't view any of Tyson's knockout victories until just this year, on internet services like youtube, but by then it was too late for Tyson to make a favorable impression on me as a top tier ATG.

So perhaps you can understand from my personal perspective why I didn't consider the outcome of Douglas/Tyson to be a monumental upset, although an upset nonetheless. And after seeing Tyson fail to knock out five opponents, and get knocked out himself by a sixth, I sort of expected Holyfield to prevail. (I'm also confident that Holyfield would have prevailed had they met before Tyson was incarcerated.)

Make no mistake about it, I was very mindful of those two matches when compiling my list, but I simply didn't think those upsets were of the magnitude necessary for me to include them in my top ten. Again, this is merely my subjective opinion, and I wouldn't expect or desire anybody to agree with it completely.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]

Ali EARNED his second chances, by beating the top contenders of his era. He won his rematches with Frazier and Norton and defeated several other top fighters, before getting a shot at Foreman. The other guys you mentioned weren't successful at getting themselves back into contention. Louis failed against contender Marciano. Jeffries chose to retire undefeated, and remained inactive for 6 years before finally coming out to face Johnson. You're comparing apples to oranges.

.

No he wasn't. Just because he was the first black champion, doesn't mean he was one of the best champions. Ali's competition and acheivements were infinately better. Johnson wouldn't even have beaten some of Ali's better opponents.

Johnson defeated the top heavyweights between Sullivan and Willard, quite a long run, despite not getting any breaks from biased judges. He lost only one fight over a twenty year period, and that at 37 in a finish fight with Willard. I don't think Ali at that age could have done better or even as good.
Which of Ali's opponents would he clearly not have beaten and why?

[ChrisPontius]

I was trying to confine the list to ten upsets. The only matches of Tyson's I'd viewed at the time of the Douglas fight were against Quick Tillis, Blood Green, Bonecrusher Smith, and Tony Tucker. In those 44 combined rounds of action, I saw Mike score exactly one inconsequential flash knockdown, against Tillis. Then, Greg Page dropped Tyson in sparring for the Douglas match. I was actually more surprised that Smith did not knock out Tyson before Douglas did. Douglas had beaten Cobb, Page, Berbick and McCall, so I figured it was possible he could decision Tyson. I will admit though, that I didn't expect him to kayo Mike as he did.

Holyfield had 14 wins over 13 world title claimants, including seven HW title claimants, and also secured his 15 round championship pedigree in the first Qawi matchup. By the time Holyfield had his first match with Tyson, I had watched two more of Mike's fights; the kayo loss to Douglas, and his 12 round decision win in the rematch with Ruddock. So in 66 total rounds of action, I saw Tyson get knocked out, and score a grand total of four knockdowns. Consider that first impressions are lasting impressions, and obviously the first impression Tyson made on me was, "What's all the fuss about?"

I didn't view any of Tyson's knockout victories until just this year, on internet services like youtube, but by then it was too late for Tyson to make a favorable impression on me as a top tier ATG.

So perhaps you can understand from my personal perspective why I didn't consider the outcome of Douglas/Tyson to be a monumental upset, although an upset nonetheless. And after seeing Tyson fail to knock out five opponents, and get knocked out himself by a sixth, I sort of expected Holyfield to prevail. (I'm also confident that Holyfield would have prevailed had they met before Tyson was incarcerated.)

Make no mistake about it, I was very mindful of those two matches when compiling my list, but I simply didn't think those upsets were of the magnitude necessary for me to include them in my top ten. Again, this is merely my subjective opinion, and I wouldn't expect or desire anybody to agree with it completely.

Well i guess you and me have different interpretations of an 'upset'.
Maybe if you have seen a selection of fights in which he didn't look too impressive, they may not have looked like upsets.

If i had only seen Holmes' fights with Carl Williams, Witherspoon and Mike Weaver, and some of Spinks' fights, then Holmes-Spinks I would not have looked like an upset to me either.


But having seen all the fights, they certainly were. Douglas' victory over McCall meant very little at that time. Basically, the only time he stepped up he lost by knockout (to Tucker).
Tyson just destroyed Williams in less than 2 minutes, who had a very close fight with Holmes, destroyed Spinks in 90 seconds, who beat Holmes, and broke Bruno down after a rough start. The 42 to 1 odds attest to it: this upset cannot be overlooked.


The same basically goes for Holyfield. He looked horrible in recent outings vs cruiserweight Czyz, got knocked out by Bowe in which he looked very frail and he got outboxed by a lightheavyweight in Moorer. He was considered to be washed up.
Tyson, on the other hand, stopped Bruno in only 3 rounds and looked sensational in doing so.



By the way, in what cave have you been hiding that you managed to miss those fights?:D

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo]

[QUOTE]
He lost only one fight over a twenty year period, and that at 37 in a finish fight with Willard. I don't think Ali at that age could have done better or even as good.


Weather or not Ali was better than Johnson at age 37 is irrelevant. Ali was already showing the signs of a man who had acquired an illness. What's more, it doesn't detract from the fact that he was much better than Johnson when the two were in their primes. I mean really, how many people go around calling Jack Johnson the greatest?


Which of Ali's opponents would he clearly not have beaten and why

Ali won the heavyweight title for the first and second times by beating Sonny Liston and George Foreman. I think most people would pick these men over Johnson , given that he had never faced a puncher who was even remotely of the calibur that these guys were. Ali Also defeated Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry, Patterson, Young, Machen, Bonavena and numerous others who many would either pick to beat Johnson or give him hell.

Johnson became champ by beating tommy Burns, who was 5'7" and 168 Lbs. What was this guy doing with the havyweight title? He beat a 35 year old Jim Jeffries who hadn't fought in 6 years and had to shed 125 Lbs in a very short period. In fact, Johnson fought many fighters who were well under the 200 pound mark and who's records were rather atrocious.

[C. M. Clay II]

1. Liston-Clay I
2. Louis-Schmeling I
3. Tyson-Douglas
4. Tyson-Holyfield I
5. Baer-Braddock
6. Johnson-Willard
7. Dempsey-Tunney I
8. Robinson-Turpin I
9. Sullivan-Corbett
10. Foreman-Ali

:good

[Duodenum]

Well i guess you and me have different interpretations of an 'upset'.
Maybe if you have seen a selection of fights in which he didn't look too impressive, they may not have looked like upsets.

If i had only seen Holmes' fights with Carl Williams, Witherspoon and Mike Weaver, and some of Spinks' fights, then Holmes-Spinks I would not have looked like an upset to me either.


But having seen all the fights, they certainly were. Douglas' victory over McCall meant very little at that time. Basically, the only time he stepped up he lost by knockout (to Tucker).
Tyson just destroyed Williams in less than 2 minutes, who had a very close fight with Holmes, destroyed Spinks in 90 seconds, who beat Holmes, and broke Bruno down after a rough start. The 42 to 1 odds attest to it: this upset cannot be overlooked.


The same basically goes for Holyfield. He looked horrible in recent outings vs cruiserweight Czyz, got knocked out by Bowe in which he looked very frail and he got outboxed by a lightheavyweight in Moorer. He was considered to be washed up.
Tyson, on the other hand, stopped Bruno in only 3 rounds and looked sensational in doing so.



By the way, in what cave have you been hiding that you managed to miss those fights?:DAhhh Chris, I was under the impression that ESB Classic was a cavernous bomb shelter from the morass which boxing has declined into during the 12 round supported steroid era!

As I've extensively discussed elsewhere on this forum, my interest in boxing pretty much evaporated with the removal of the 15 round championship distance. Boxing amputated itself of much history and drama when that happened, and with the elimination of the 15 round distance, steroid inflated competitors blew up like balloons. The human element of strategy, intelligence, resourcefulness, and resiliency became subsumed by a premium on anaerobic athleticism. Skittish referees began stopping matches prematurely (robbing Mike Weaver of his WBA Title, and yes, Lennox Lewis against Oliver McCall in their first match).

If I had any genuine interest in contemporary boxing, I wouldn't be hanging out on this classic boxing forum exclusively. I have no use for the distorted and diluted mutation which has passed for boxing in recent years.

Bless Arthur Mercante Sr., for vowing to never invoke the standing eight count while still perfoming as a referee. Although a mandatory eight count after a knockdown seems sensible to me, the standing eight count deprives strategic boxers of using the time honored feigning of distress as a clever tactic for creating openings in an adversary's attack. (I haven't seen a boxer do this well since Weaver suckered Williams into his shrewd web of deceit.)

Truthfully, I hadn't watched or read anything about boxing in eons, before finding myself being uncontrollably sucked into ESB Classic. (The kindest thing these moderators can do for me now is to ban me for life, so I don't feel myself compelled to spew forth my vile rhetoric about a glorious past.)

[Dempsey1238]

Jack Johnson EARN his 2nd shot at Willard and perhaps Dempsey. Louis could have goting a shot earler if Charles was not stuck with the Walcott battles. And when Charles won, he sat on the title for about 6 months before he rematch Charles. I belive Louis should have goting a return for the title in 1951 shortly before faceing Marciano.

[Dempsey1238]

Lots of people EVEN today claim Johnson was the greatness. Even Jack Blackburn rated Johnson over Louis.

[mr. magoo]

Lots of people EVEN today claim Johnson was the greatness.


Well, I hate to break it to ya pal, but he wasn't.



Even Jack Blackburn rated Johnson over Louis.


So what? Louis wasn't better than Ali either.

[ChrisPontius]

Ahhh Chris, I was under the impression that ESB Classic was a cavernous bomb shelter from the morass which boxing has declined into during the 12 round supported steroid era!

As I've extensively discussed elsewhere on this forum, my interest in boxing pretty much evaporated with the removal of the 15 round championship distance. Boxing amputated itself of much history and drama when that happened, and with the elimination of the 15 round distance, steroid inflated competitors blew up like balloons. The human element of strategy, intelligence, resourcefulness, and resiliency became subsumed by a premium on anaerobic athleticism. Skittish referees began stopping matches prematurely (robbing Mike Weaver of his WBA Title, and yes, Lennox Lewis against Oliver McCall in their first match).

If I had any genuine interest in contemporary boxing, I wouldn't be hanging out on this classic boxing forum exclusively. I have no use for the distorted and diluted mutation which has passed for boxing in recent years.

Bless Arthur Mercante Sr., for vowing to never invoke the standing eight count while still perfoming as a referee. Although a mandatory eight count after a knockdown seems sensible to me, the standing eight count deprives strategic boxers of using the time honored feigning of distress as a clever tactic for creating openings in an adversary's attack. (I haven't seen a boxer do this well since Weaver suckered Williams into his shrewd web of deceit.)

Truthfully, I hadn't watched or read anything about boxing in eons, before finding myself being uncontrollably sucked into ESB Classic. (The kindest thing these moderators can do for me now is to ban me for life, so I don't feel myself compelled to spew forth my vile rhetoric about a glorious past.)

Fair enough.

It just suprises me that a pretty die-hard boxing fan (correct me if i'm wrong) like yourself goes from following the sport to completely leaving it for a change in the rules. I agree that 15 rounds allows for more strategic fighting and imposes higher standards on conditioning. Nethertheless you are missing out on some great fights that have happened the last twenty years. Watch them. You can thank me later. :D

[OLD FOGEY]

Jack Johnson EARN his 2nd shot at Willard and perhaps Dempsey. Louis could have goting a shot earler if Charles was not stuck with the Walcott battles. And when Charles won, he sat on the title for about 6 months before he rematch Charles. I belive Louis should have goting a return for the title in 1951 shortly before faceing Marciano.

You are exactly right. Louis had earned a second shot at Charles with his knockout of Savold, the #2 contender, and a man actually recognized as champion by the British Board of Boxing Control. The fight was penciled in for September in Yankee Stadium. Charles had one scheduled fight first, a third match with Walcott--one not expected to be a tough one. Walcott pulled an upset and Louis was out in the cold. He signed for Marciano in the Polo Grounds, but when the Giants and Dodgers went into a playoff, the fight was moved to Madison Square Garden and postponed a few weeks.
Given Louis' great record in rematches, it is intriguing to consider what he might have done against Charles if the match had come off.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=OLD FOGEY][quote=mr. magoo]



Weather or not Ali was better than Johnson at age 37 is irrelevant. Ali was already showing the signs of a man who had acquired an illness. What's more, it doesn't detract from the fact that he was much better than Johnson when the two were in their primes. I mean really, how many people go around calling Jack Johnson the greatest?


Ali won the heavyweight title for the first and second times by beating Sonny Liston and George Foreman. I think most people would pick these men over Johnson , given that he had never faced a puncher who was even remotely of the calibur that these guys were. Ali Also defeated Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry, Patterson, Young, Machen, Bonavena and numerous others who many would either pick to beat Johnson or give him hell.

Johnson became champ by beating tommy Burns, who was 5'7" and 168 Lbs. What was this guy doing with the havyweight title? He beat a 35 year old Jim Jeffries who hadn't fought in 6 years and had to shed 125 Lbs in a very short period. In fact, Johnson fought many fighters who were well under the 200 pound mark and who's records were rather atrocious.

Your problem here is that the film we have is of his title fights against white fighters, which may exaggerate the small size of the opposition--still, Jeff was 227 lbs, Moran 203 lbs, and Willard 230 lbs, and all were in top condition, and Johnson dominated them all, including Willard for over 20 rounds at 37 years of age. Burns was 5' 7" and a stunted "heavyweight" champion, but Johnson fought far bigger and better men for his colored championship. The talented Denver Ed Martin was 6' 4" and over 200 lbs. Sam McVea was only 5' 10" but about 210 lbs and was the prototypical Joe Frazier, only Johnson dominated him in a way Ali never dominated Frazier. Peter Felix was 6' 3", Jim Jeffords 6' 4",
Sandy Ferguson 6' 3", and each about 200 lbs. After losing his title, Johnson was still good enough to beat the 6' 2", 210 lb Tom Cowler and even approaching 50, defeated the 6' 4", 225 lb Pat Lester.
Johnson was a great athlete who would have been outstanding in any era. He was a top heavyweight for a quarter of a century and went from 1906 through 1926 with only the one loss to Willard, a fantastic run. He rates as a peer of any champion in history.

[redrooster]

:huh Why hasn't anyone mentioned Taylor-Hopkins 1?

For a guy who has "many more options than Hagler", X didn't prove to be much of a match for Jermaine Taylor, a fighter with 23 fights, in a one sided affair.

Being the great fighter he's been proclaimed by so many, I was surprised to watch as Hopkins literally did nothing to defend his title. What some may mistake for patience on Bernard's part, I call reluctance to move in as he gave away the early rounds and several others before warming up and displaying some sloppy infighting in the middle rounds while failing to slip past Jermain's jab.

Other than that, about the only thing other he managed to do in that time was stand straight up and make funny faces. By the tenth round I was thinking "congradulations, you finally won a round"


Bernard HOPKINS, THE THINKING MAN'S FIGHTER :lol:

the quick change of expression on his face was the best part for me upon hearing the words "and new undisputed middleweight champion"

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo][quote=OLD FOGEY]

[QUOTE]Your problem here is that the film we have is of his title fights against white fighters, which may exaggerate the small size of the opposition--

You can use speculation all you want, but frankly, I'd rather go with what we can actually see and analyze. Most would agree that Ali's competition was light years better than Johnson's. Some wouldn't even consider this a debate worth having ( I know that I certainly don't ) .

still, Jeff was 227 lbs, Moran 203 lbs, and Willard 230 lbs, and all were in top condition, and Johnson dominated them all, including Willard for over 20 rounds at 37 years of age.

Jeffries was 35 years old, and hadn't fought in 6 years. I don't know how many times I have to mention that to people. Some of you guys continuously ignore that as if it's no object. Willard and Moran were good fighters, but I have my doubts about them being in the same league as Foreman, Frazier, Liston and Patterson, abd basically half of the guys whom Ali beat in his prime.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=OLD FOGEY][quote=mr. magoo][quote=OLD FOGEY]



You can use speculation all you want, but frankly, I'd rather go with what we can actually see and analyze. Most would agree that Ali's competition was light years better than Johnson's. Some wouldn't even consider this a debate worth having ( I know that I certainly don't ) .



Jeffries was 35 years old, and hadn't fought in 6 years. I don't know how many times I have to mention that to people. Some of you guys continuously ignore that as if it's no object. Willard and Moran were good fighters, but I have my doubts about them being in the same league as Foreman, Frazier, Liston and Patterson, abd basically half of the guys whom Ali beat in his prime.

They weren't in Johnson's class either and that's my point. Except for a probably unfair decision to Hart and the loss in a finish fight with Willard, which he would have won in 20 or 25 rounds, and a loss on a foul, Johnson didn't lose from 1901 to almost the Great Depression. That is a hell of a run that even Ali can not match and is most impressive.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo][quote=OLD FOGEY][quote=mr. magoo]

They weren't in Johnson's class either and that's my point. Except for a probably unfair decision to Hart and the loss in a finish fight with Willard, which he would have won in 20 or 25 rounds, and a loss on a foul, Johnson didn't lose from 1901 to almost the Great Depression. That is a hell of a run that even Ali can not match and is most impressive.

I never said Johnson wasn't impressive, but he's definately not in Ali's league. A "Long run" like the one the one you're illuding to, is typically the result of weak or lackluster opposition. One of the things that made the 70's such a hallmark in heavyweight history, was the incredible log jam of talent, and the rivalrys that came from it. Johnson was a good fighter, I'm not saying that he didn't have a legacy worth mentioning. He simply however, cannot be rated anywhere close to Muhammad Ali.

[Duodenum]

Fair enough.

It just suprises me that a pretty die-hard boxing fan (correct me if i'm wrong) like yourself goes from following the sport to completely leaving it for a change in the rules. I agree that 15 rounds allows for more strategic fighting and imposes higher standards on conditioning. Nethertheless you are missing out on some great fights that have happened the last twenty years. Watch them. You can thank me later. :DWell, I can't truly lay claim to being a die-hard boxing fan if I abandoned it so easily. I think the genuinely loyal fans may be found in the General Forum. I'm hardly a Max Kellerman type who can sustain boyish enthusiasm about a sport that continually sabotages itself, and fails to keep the public imagination. Who knows, perhaps I would have outgrown my interest in it anyways. It's people like yourself who are truly the present and the future of boxing, if it is to have a future.

Alas, I seem to have been nothing more than a fair weather friend to boxing. While it's fashionable for ESB Classic snobs to deride those who post in the General Forum, the fact is that they are the ones keeping what's left of the sport going. In that respect, they are far better than I could ever aspire to be with regard to this.

I am starting to watch a little of what has happened in the ring over the last few years. That's a great thing about this internet, that we can do this. Perhaps the time will come when I do thank you, but I fear it may be a long process of acceptance on my part.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=OLD FOGEY][quote=mr. magoo][quote=OLD FOGEY]

I never said Johnson wasn't impressive, but he's definately not in Ali's league. A "Long run" like the one the one you're illuding to, is typically the result of weak or lackluster opposition. One of the things that made the 70's such a hallmark in heavyweight history, was the incredible log jam of talent, and the rivalrys that came from it. Johnson was a good fighter, I'm not saying that he didn't have a legacy worth mentioning. He simply however, cannot be rated anywhere close to Muhammad Ali.

1. I rate Ali #1, followed by Louis, Marciano, Johnson, and Lewis.
2. I rate Ali #1 basically because he did fight the best opposition, in my judgement, but I would also say that Louis, Marciano, and Johnson did better against the best men of their time than Ali did against the best of his.
3. I think one has to be very careful about golden era talk. The seventies were dominated by a fighter well past his prime, obviously slipping, and who towards the end may even have had health problems. If this really the most competitive era? Yes, heavyweights in the '70's were on the whole bigger than in earlier eras, but they were also not as big as the heavyweights to come. They are merely a point on an upward curve.
In contrast, in the Louis era the champion was in his prime and so were the contenders.

[Cojimar 1945]

Johnson failed to defend against the most deserving challengers after beating Burns and this undermines his title reign. Had he fought the best challengers he likely would not have reigned as long.

[Cojimar 1945]

Marciano was more dominant against his contemporaries than Ali was but he did not fight against top contenders for as long as Ali did. Johnson on the other hand did not face his best challengers so comparing him with Ali is difficult given that Ali did not duck the best.

[OLD FOGEY]

Marciano was more dominant against his contemporaries than Ali was but he did not fight against top contenders for as long as Ali did. Johnson on the other hand did not face his best challengers so comparing him with Ali is difficult given that Ali did not duck the best.

What you say about Marciano and Johnson is why I rate them third and fourth and not first. Don't forget, though, that Johnson did defeat the black dynamite fighters before he won the white championship and Ali did not rematch Foreman, who was clearly the #1 contender between 1975 and 1977, and also probably avoided the rising Holmes.

[mr. magoo]

Ali did not rematch Foreman, who was clearly the #1 contender between 1975 and 1977, and also probably avoided the rising Holmes


I don't know how anyone can accuse Ali of ducking anyone, even in the latter part of his career as champion. He beat Foreman more than convincingly, after which, Georges career declined between 75 and 77. I'm not so sure that a rematch was warranted. Holmes was a promising young prospect, but was pretty much an unknown entity until maybe late 1977. Up to this point, he was actually on Ali's payroll as a sparring partner. In the meantime, Ali was facing far more established contenders in Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, and of course Ken Norton. Rather than saying Ali ducked Holmes, it would be more appropriate to say that without the mentoring of Ali, Holmes never would have flourished. The fact that Muhammad Ali, was heavily involved in the making of another all time great, who would take his place in the grand scheme of boxing, is another big star on his legacy in my opinion.

[JohnThomas1]

It sure is.

Going into the fight, Holyfield was washed up, and after it, it was a prime Holyfield vs a shot Tyson. :lol:

I think Liston also still something like a 2 to 1 favorite in the Clay-rematch. History repeating itself during Tyson-Holyfield II.

Exactly! The usual Tyson fans were crowing like mad out here, he was back to better than ever, he was gonna kill, yada, yada. I had some good debates with friends who mostly laffed at me when i told them Lewis would leave him prone. Even then people here only half knew Lewis whilst Tyson was still feared and seen as almost invincible.

[JohnThomas1]

My pick was Hopkins but what do I know?

Oh out with ya, you wouldn't pick Hopkins or SRL over your frigging grand parents.

[redrooster]

Oh out with ya, you wouldn't pick Hopkins or SRL over your frigging grand parents.

I was unwavering in my ability to go against the grain in this man vs. boy matchup. It shows how little most people really thought of X.

I thought if I'm right and I usually am, Hopkins will overpower him with his superior strength, rough him up at every opportunity, and finish Tito within the distance. I almost ran out of time but still made it with seconds to spare. :D

The rest of you should have seen it coming. Big mistake on your part.

What's wrong with you people?

[OLD FOGEY]

1. Ali defeated Foreman in convincing fashion. Following the Ali loss, Foreman's career went on a downslide. I'm not sure if he was the #1 contender, but his performance in the first fight did not necessarily warrant a rematch in my opinion.

2. How did Ali avoid the rising Holmes, when the two were sparring partners working in the same camp? What's more, Holmes was pretty much a nobody until about 1977. Meanwhile, Ali was busy taking on far more established fighters in Norton, Young, Shavers, and some others.

Foreman was the #1 contender in 1974--He dropped in 1976 because of inactivity, but quickly regained the #1 spot in 1976 and held it through most of 1977. However decisive Ali's win over Foreman, Foreman had more decisively defeated Frazier and Norton, who got the shots. There was plenty of buzz among boxing fans about a rematch after Foreman's wins over Lyle (who had beaten Shavers) and Frazier in 1976, but Ali was busy fighting Dunn, Coopman, Evangelista, etc and somehow never got around to George again.
Johnson also had decisively defeated the black dynamite fighters but you still score him for not defending against them when he held the white title.

I yield the Holmes point to you. Howard Cosell began talking up Holmes in 1976 or so, but Holmes really didn't do enough to get excited about prior to 1978 or so.

[JohnThomas1]

I was unwavering in my ability to go against the grain in this man vs. boy matchup. It shows how little most people really thought of X.

I thought if I'm right and I usually am, Hopkins will overpower him with his superior strength, rough him up at every opportunity, and finish Tito within the distance. I almost ran out of time but still made it with seconds to spare. :D

The rest of you should have seen it coming. Big mistake on your part.

What's wrong with you people?

How would you see the Hopkins of the Tito fight vs peak Frank Fletcher going?

:smoke

[redrooster]

How would you see the Hopkins of the Tito fight vs peak Frank Fletcher going?

:smoke

How would you see it going?

[JohnThomas1]

How would you see it going?

There would be a lot of blood, and it wouldn't be Hopkins. Frank cut very easily, led face first (sometimes doubling and tripling up), had zero defence and didn't hit hard enough or accurate enough to bother topline fighters. Hopkins would cut him down, totally outclassed around about the 6th stanza.

And you?