What do people think of CARLOS MONZON? I've just discovered how underrated he may be.

[DINAMITA]

Carlos Monzon lost 3 of his 1st 19 fights (not stopped in any of them), all in South America.

He never lost again in the next 81 fights, so he never lost once in his world title fight career.

World middleweight champion for 7 years, posting wins over the likes of Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, and Jose Angel Napoles.

I don't claim to be a Monzon expert, I've only seen a couple of his fights, so this thread is more of a call for opinion than a proclamation of his greatness, but I just think that Monzon is never spoken of the way he should be.

How many times have you read people listing "Robinson, Ali, Leonard, Whitaker" etc, with no mention of Monzon? I think he definitely deserves to be spoken of in this company. Do you think he is a top 10-20 p4p of all-time??

[enquirer]

Best 160 man of all times. One of the better championship reigns of any fighter. A p4p atg. Could arguably be top ten p4p...Criminally excluded from p4p lists....If american would be the uncontested consensus no1 160 man....

[natonic]

Best 160 man of all times. One of the better championship reigns of any fighter. A p4p atg. Could arguably be top ten p4p...Criminally excluded from p4p lists....If american would be the uncontested consensus no1 160 man....

Amen

[salsanchezfan]

................Monzon's exploits are lauded here quite a bit actually. I would say the concensus considers him the best at 160. On ESB anyway, and provided one stays out of the sandbox known as the General Forum.

[Minotauro]

Best 160 man of all times. One of the better championship reigns of any fighter. A p4p atg. Could arguably be top ten p4p...Criminally excluded from p4p lists....If american would be the uncontested consensus no1 160 man....

Monzon is an all time great I have him at 2 at 160. But you think if he was American he would rated higher then Greb? I doubt it Greb has one if not the best resume in boxing I don't think a change of nationality would make another fighter rank above him.

[red cobra]

The greatest middle of all time, and IMO, one of the greatest fighters of all time, period. His record speaks for itself, fought all the best, all the ones who were supposed to beat him, he avenged his 3 defeats, all decisions, BTW, had the answer for every opponent's style, and left the fight game as undefeated middle champion, I guess that's for starters, except to say that his style was a triumph of technical skill, ring brains and toughness over the flashier sort of superficial gifts that soon desert a fighter and leave him stranded a victim of a truly great fighter, like Monzon was. A real legend if there ever was one.

[red cobra]

Amen
Another Amen. I see many of these so called p4p lists and think they're just jokes by uninformed beginner boxing fans.

[Sweet Pea]

Yep. Most, including myself, think very highly of him here.

[A Rock]

all around sick fighter

[Thread Stealer]

I think as a whole, Monzon is recognized for how great he is.

People here recognize him as one of, if not THE, greatest middleweight ever. Ring Magazine ranked him as the 3rd greatest middleweight ever, and had him #11 on their top 80 of the last 80 years list.

When people do mythical matchups between him and Hagler, it's usually fairly even or in favor of Monzon. Same with him and Hopkins.

[enquirer]

The greb case is unclear. His resume makes him a terrific contendor for no1 p4p of them all,never mind just 160. However,the lack of footage and carlos' stylistic advantages over greb make me think carlos is better as a purely 160 man. I can genuinely see carlos beating every great 160 man in history over 15,i cant say the same with greb.....

[enquirer]

Delete.

[Sweet Pea]

The greb case is unclear. His resume makes him a terrific contendor for no1 p4p of them all,never mind just 160. However,the lack of footage and carlos' stylistic advantages over greb make me think carlos is better as a purely 160 man. I can genuinely see carlos beating every great 160 man in history over 15,i cant say the same with greb.....Monzon certainly has no style advantage over Greb based on what we know of him. There is no basis for that. In fact, considering Greb's ability to have beaten most of the bigger, taller boxers of his era, I'd say it's the exact opposite.

Either way, I rank Greb well higher P4P based on resume, Monzon probably #1 at MW.

[he grant]

Greb lacks footage but Monzon lacks anywhere near the quality of opposition that we know Greb fought ...

Love Carlos and he is a top five but number one is a reach.

[enquirer]

Speaking purely at 160,monzon had a great style,relaxed,persistent and methodical. He had good size,height and reach for a middle. Great strength,stamina,great long range and short range game and very good power. Greb was smaller,less powerful and didnt seem to be the ring general carlos was. Carlos has the size and style to beat hagler,robinson hopkins et al,does greb? I feel greb could be outboxed wheras carlos wouldnt be over 15.
Also,just because hearns achieved much more than hagler above 160 doesnt make him the better man at 160 stylistically or otherwise...Hope this analogy is digested and understood......

[Sweet Pea]

Speaking purely at 160,monzon had a great style,relaxed,persistent and methodical. He had good size,height and reach for a middle. Great strength,stamina and very good power. Greb was smaller,less powerful and didnt seem to be the ring general carlos was. Carlos has the size and style to beat hagler,robinson hopkins et al,does greb? I feel greb could be outboxed wheras carlos wouldnt be over 15.Greb more or less ate up boxers, of all shapes and sizes. He himself was never a pure boxer or one who relied on technical boxing to have his way, so the thought of him strictly "out-boxing" Monzon is irrelevant, as it wasn't his style in the first place.

The only thing that makes me uneasy about including him in head to head scenarios is the time frame in which he fought, which was just prior to the whole of boxing becoming truly modernized IMO.

[Loewe]

The greatest middle of all time, and IMO, one of the greatest fighters of all time, period. His record speaks for itself, fought all the best, all the ones who were supposed to beat him, he avenged his 3 defeats, all decisions, BTW, had the answer for every opponent's style, and left the fight game as undefeated middle champion, I guess that's for starters, except to say that his style was a triumph of technical skill, ring brains and toughness over the flashier sort of superficial gifts that soon desert a fighter and leave him stranded a victim of a truly great fighter, like Monzon was. A real legend if there ever was one.

:good

[he grant]

The quality of opposition is tremendously lopsided ... Greb was a much more active puncher, had exceptional stamina , a cast iron chin and was much, much faster than Monzon ...

[enquirer]

Well i sort of feel the same way,though he did indeed 'eat' up boxers could he do that to boxers like robinson,hagler and such like? This is why i say carlos has the better style at 160,i feel monzon could impose his style against modern greats wheras im not soo sure with harold....

[Robbi]

Monzon deserves to be ranked no lower than #3 all-time at middleweight. He was so consistent after he was last defeated during the mid-60's. He gave rematches to some fighters, and the ones he gave rematches to were usually among the best on his resume. His style wasn't particularly attractive, although maybe to some who liked awkward rhythm and lovely timing to go with it. Monzon knew how to control oppoents. He certainly gave Napoles a serious beating and never let him even have a sniff at getting into the fight.

I'd liked to have seen Hopkins-Monzon.

[TommyV]

Well i sort of feel the same way,though he did indeed 'eat' up boxers could he do that to boxers like robinson,hagler and such like? This is why i say carlos has the better style at 160,i feel monzon could impose his style against modern greats wheras im not soo sure with harold....

Tunney was a superb outboxer who could impose his style, and only lost once his whole career.

And who handed him that loss? That's right Harry Greb.

Greb physically handled much bigger guys.

[round15]

One of the greastest middleweights of all time that knew when and how to clinch properly to nullify his opponent's offense. Hopkins, Hagler, Leonard, Duran, Hearns and Roy Jones would all be in for a rough, tough fight if they faced Monzon. He was that good.

[Sweet Pea]

Monzon knew how to control oppoents. He certainly gave Napoles a serious beating and never let him even have a sniff at getting into the fight.Napoles actually did quite well against him early on. Monzon started truly giving him a beating in the 5th round, but the first 4 IMO were competitive, and I gave Napoles the first at least.

He certainly did know how to control opponents and keep the fight at his pace though.

[Robbi]

Napoles actually did quite well against him early on. Monzon started truly giving him a beating in the 5th round, but the first 4 IMO were competitive, and I gave Napoles the first at least.

He certainly did know how to control opponents and keep the fight at his pace though.

Yeah, but Napoles never really managed to take a grip of the fight. And as you said he was competitive during those early rounds. But Monzon did dominate him more or less, although that might be borderline in some peoples eyes with the word 'dominate' being too strong a word to sum his showing. He just seemed to get better as the fight progressed. Those right hands couldn't miss once Monzon was running in 5th gear.

[the cobra]

For what they did at 160lbs, I think he's the clear cut #1, and always have.

He's not the most flashy of boxers, but he was very, very effective in his approach, the kind of guy that you become more and more impressed with the more you watch him.

Personally, aside from middleweight, I'd probably put him in the top 15 all-time P4P, without question top 20. Simply a brilliant fighter.

[Robbi]

For what they did at 160lbs, I think he's the clear cut #1, and always have.

He's not the most flashy of boxers, but he was very, very effective in his approach, the kind of guy that you become more and more impressed with the more you watch him.

Personally, aside from middleweight, I'd probably put him in the top 15 all-time P4P, without question top 20. Simply a brilliant fighter.

Who at middleweight would have given him the most problems in your eyes or even went one further and beaten him?

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Robbi
Who at middleweight would have given him the most problems in your eyes or even went one further and beaten him?
I won't comment on Greb because I obviously have not seen him fight, I think Hagler would make it very tough for Monzon but ultimately lose, Hagler being forced to come forward and he would get tagged before getting inside, and once he got there Carlos would clinch and push him off and repeat, Monzon would simply control nearly all of the fight.

This might be a personal bias here, but I see Hopkins giving him the most trouble and having the best chance of beating him. If Hopkins generally leads against Monzon I think he would be beaten, and if Monzon is aggressive against Hopkins I think he gets beaten, so really I see it coming down to who can make the other come to him throughout most of the fight. Hopkins' footwork, defense, counters, timing, and his edge in speed would give Carlos a good deal of problems, as would his 2 inch height advantage and the fact that Monzon's reach is only an inch longer than his, more or less nullifying those two things Monzon had over his foes.

I can't really decide who wins H2H, might lean towards Monzon because he proved himself against superior opposition, but it's very close, and I don't know of a clear or even likely result of this fight.

[he grant]

I like Monzon but feel you guys are over rating him here ... there have been so many terrific middleweights , all of whom fought much better opposition than Monzon .... I definately feel he is an all time great but no way number 1 ..

[the cobra]

Originally posted by he grant
I like Monzon but feel you guys are over rating him here ... there have been so many terrific middleweights , all of whom fought much better opposition than Monzon .... I definately feel he is an all time great but no way number 1 ..
Based on who they fought and how dominant they were, I don't see how anyone can rate over Monzon at 160lbs.

No one at middleweight had "Much better opposition," there were a few who fought better fighters (and none of them were so dominant in their careers as Monzon), but none that had a level of opposition that was much better than Monzon's if you take away the fights Greb had over 160lbs and Robinson had under.

[lfsdan]

I have never seen Harry Greb fight but most people agree he's #1. For me however Monzon is the #1 middleweight of all time. If I saw some Greb footage i could more fairly asses, but Monzon could very damn well beat any middleweight in history. He was amazing at adapting to different styles.

[Brian123]

Monzon is underrated in general but not on this board

FWIW he is the #2 MW all-time in my book, Greb is first.

As for Hopkins he would be vastly overmatched be either.

The most underrated MW's IMO are Stanley Ketchel and Nino Benvenuti.

[birddog]

Monzon has never been underrated in the classic forum. Maybe in the general boxing forum, but not here. In most threads re best middleweight in this room, Monzon is usually #1.

[Marciano Frazier]

Carlos Monzon lost 3 of his 1st 19 fights (not stopped in any of them), all in South America.

He never lost again in the next 81 fights, so he never lost once in his world title fight career.

World middleweight champion for 7 years, posting wins over the likes of Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, and Jose Angel Napoles.

I don't claim to be a Monzon expert, I've only seen a couple of his fights, so this thread is more of a call for opinion than a proclamation of his greatness, but I just think that Monzon is never spoken of the way he should be.

How many times have you read people listing "Robinson, Ali, Leonard, Whitaker" etc, with no mention of Monzon? I think he definitely deserves to be spoken of in this company. Do you think he is a top 10-20 p4p of all-time??
I consider Monzon the clear greatest middleweight champion of all time, the most dominant champion in history in any weight class, and a lock for the top 15 pound-for-pound. It really bothers me to see so many people put him in the 20s or 30s or 40s. The main reason I wouldn't consider Monzon to rank quite up there with the likes of Robinson or Armstrong is that he only fought at the one weight class, and never moved up to challenge foes in the divisions above him- this is not shameful or anything, but the guys who do so successfully deserve extra recognition.

[birddog]

Based on the fighters we have footage of, It's always going to be Monzon, Hagler, Robbie and Hops as to the best middleweight. I can't go with Greb in that group since there's no known footage of him. Is there

[salsanchezfan]

Based on the fighters we have footage of, It's always going to be Monzon, Hagler, Robbie and Hops as to the best middleweight. I can't go with Greb in that group since there's no known footage of him. Is there




.............And somehow, there are those who will forever argue Robinson in the mix. I personally see no argument for it, but there are some.......

[salsanchezfan]

................Edit, Birddog; I see now you already had Robinson in there.

Me read very goodly not. :oops:

[birddog]

................Edit, Birddog; I see now you already had Robinson in there.

Me read very goodly not. :oops:
hehe

Yes I had Robbe in the mix. Though a Hags fan obviously. I question his ability to beat Robbi, think he can deal with Hops. Monzon I'm unsure of as I've only seen maybe 4-5 Monzon fights.

Besides I'm too lazy to change my avatar like JT does.

[salsanchezfan]

hehe

Yes I had Robbe in the mix. Though a Hags fan obviously. I question his ability to beat Robbi, think he can deal with Hops. Monzon I'm unsure of as I've only seen maybe 4-5 Monzon fights.

Besides I'm too lazy to change my avatar like JT does.


............I agree; Hagler was the better middleweight, but Robbie had all the ingredients to beat him.


As far as the avatar goes, you could at least have some girl showing her ass. :bart

[birddog]

............I agree; Hagler was the better middleweight, but Robbie had all the ingredients to beat him.


As far as the avatar goes, you could at least have some girl showing her ass. :bart
:rofl:rofl:rofl:good

Haha, used too have one but lost the avatar,

[salsanchezfan]

:rofl:rofl:rofl:good

Haha, used too have one but lost the avatar,



...............Ah, that's alright; we still have Johnthomas and Magoo.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I consider Monzon the clear greatest middleweight champion of all time, the most dominant champion in history in any weight class, and a lock for the top 15 pound-for-pound. It really bothers me to see so many people put him in the 20s or 30s or 40s. The main reason I wouldn't consider Monzon to rank quite up there with the likes of Robinson or Armstrong is that he only fought at the one weight class, and never moved up to challenge foes in the divisions above him- this is not shameful or anything, but the guys who do so successfully deserve extra recognition.

Very much agree with you. Monzon is often forgotten.

[McGrain]

Top 25 all time pound for pound.

Top 2 at 160.

[Maxmomer]

No. 2 at MW.

[enquirer]

One point on greb. Was his record as good as monzons in STRICTLY 160 bouts? What greb did above 160 is not alway relevent to his 160 ranking. Or does hearns being a lt heavy champ somehow elevate his 147 and 160 credentials?

[redrooster]

I never saw Monzon beat anyone great like a Roy Jones or a Marvin Hagler but his undefeated streak is among the most impressive.

[Loewe]

I never saw Monzon beat anyone great like a Roy Jones or a Marvin Hagler but his undefeated streak is among the most impressive.

Leonard SD12 Hagler :lol:

[redrooster]

Leonard SD12 Hagler :lol:

This is for you Leonard haters: Camacho KO 5 Leonard

and as a bonus: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Loewe]

This is for you Leonard haters: Camacho KO 5 Leonard

and as a bonus: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

You wanna defend Leonard by posting Camacho KO5 Leonard? :lol:

[redrooster]

You wanna defend Leonard by posting Camacho KO5 Leonard? :lol:

Speed vs. speed--the handspeed of Camacho was unsurpassed

[Loewe]

Speed vs. speed--the handspeed of Camacho was unsurpassed

Are you drunk?

[ron u.k.]

Speed vs. speed--the handspeed of Camacho was unsurpassedspeed vs shell you mean?

[redrooster]

speed vs shell you mean?

all's fair when you have two shells and Hector off of his disputed win over Duran was simply shot. Ray loves fighting shot fighters but Hector turned back the clock while Ray couldn't. Ray couldn't adapt to sharp, quick hitters like Camacho and Norris-history has proven that.

The end result: read 'em and weep-Camacho KO 5 Ray Leonard

[Robbi]

all's fair when you have two shells and Hector off of his disputed win over Duran was simply shot. Ray loves fighting shot fighters but Hector turned back the clock while Ray couldn't. Ray couldn't adapt to sharp, quick hitters like Camacho and Norris-history has proven that.

The end result: read 'em and weep-Camacho KO 5 Ray Leonard


Keep up the good work. You are turning into ESB's finest comedian.

[redrooster]

Keep up the good work. You are turning into ESB's finest comedian.

Only the facts interest me. Ray Leonard is but one of Camacho's many victims.

[JohnThomas1]

I never saw Monzon beat anyone great like a Roy Jones or a Marvin Hagler but his undefeated streak is among the most impressive.

Of course Hagler and Jones were flogging greats like Monzon every second week.

:lol:

[flamengo]

I have spoken many times with Tony Mundine, who faught Monzon in 74... In his own words, he suggests Monzon was a stubburn S.O.B... Nothing would hurt the guy... His jaw and body remained unaffected by the best of shots... He seemed to relish in the attack... not unlike the lightweight Duran, but a middle weight version..

Monzon is definately bettered by only SRR.... and the comparisons with Greb are very speculative... although, very little can be taken from Greb...

[godking]

The quality of opposition is tremendously lopsided ... Greb was a much more active puncher, had exceptional stamina , a cast iron chin and was much, much faster than Monzon ...You have footage on film for that ?.

[JohnThomas1]

You have footage on film for that ?.

Of course he has, otherwise how could one ever know? Either that or he saw him live. Especially given the speed comparison.

[youngmonzon]

Carlos Monzon lost 3 of his 1st 19 fights (not stopped in any of them), all in South America.

He never lost again in the next 81 fights, so he never lost once in his world title fight career.

World middleweight champion for 7 years, posting wins over the likes of Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, and Jose Angel Napoles.

I don't claim to be a Monzon expert, I've only seen a couple of his fights, so this thread is more of a call for opinion than a proclamation of his greatness, but I just think that Monzon is never spoken of the way he should be.

How many times have you read people listing "Robinson, Ali, Leonard, Whitaker" etc, with no mention of Monzon? I think he definitely deserves to be spoken of in this company. Do you think he is a top 10-20 p4p of all-time??

Monzon is the greatest boxer, ever. A master that refused to lose. Very cool under pressure. Found a way to win. Excellent stamina, strong will, great fighting instincts and power. Tremendous chin.

[red cobra]

Monzon is the greatest boxer, ever. A master that refused to lose. Very cool under pressure. Found a way to win. Excellent stamina, strong will, great fighting instincts and power. Tremendous chin.
Well said, and I agree with you.